The men behind Man city: If you thought Qatar was a problem, wait till you get a load of Abu Dhabi

[SkeppyRed]

City have sold their sold to the devil. Whatever it takes to try and be like United eh. Artificial success.

City fans are going to have to put up with being reminded of this for a very very long time. Anything they achieve will have an asterisk next to it. *Funded by murderers and slave owners.

 

[prath92]

Most of the people in Qatar and the UAE aren't actually citizens, they're very protective of who they give citizenship and a passport too. Pretty much everyone else is considered a migrant worker with very few rights. So yes, the 'citizens' of these countries are incredibly wealthy and live very privileged lives, but there are several underclasses of migrant workers, some of which are treated as relative slaves.

I actually know a bit about this, my girlfriend is an Arab Muslim who lived in Abu Dhabi for about 12 years and spent a lot of time in Dubai as well. Her family still live there, so she goes back from time to time, although as little as she can help it. Admittedly I've never been myself, but I consider her a pretty good source.

She has a lot of great memories; the standard of living was great, the restaurants are world class, Dubai is a beautiful modern city and she made a lot of good friends, not to mention the fact she was incredibly well paid for even the most basic of admin jobs.

However, she has an endless supply of horror stories. There are the obvious ones that we in the West stereotypically relate to Islamic countries; the conservative/religious oppression and sexism towards women. She did suffer under this unfortunately, but the UAE is actually fairly moderate, so as a women she had a fair amount of independence and it rarely affected her day to day life. She could more or less go about her business like she could here, except maybe she had to be a bit more careful about how she behaved in public or who she spoke to.

But it does go deeper than that. UAE citizens have a lot of power, she has friends who were deported because they were in a rush and failed to hold a door open for a UAE woman, or because in a fit of road rage they flipped the finger to a UAE national. Then there were the bosses (typically UAE nationals as they can basically walk into any job they want, and are immune to getting sacked) who sexually harassed her. Of course that's not exclusive to the middle-east at all, but if she'd tried to report it she wouldn't have just lost her job, she would have been kicked out of the country, away from her family and friends, forever. She might even have been arrested for being 'immoral' if the boss decided to take it that far. Then there's all the friends and acquaintances who were the victims of rape and sexual assault, but couldn't even think about reporting it to the police as they'd be arrested as well for having an 'extramarital affair'.

Then there's the hired help, the desperate souls they ship in from Malaysia, India etc. to do their dirty work for them. While most of them are just poorly paid and neglected, she insists there are those who are beaten and tortured by their UAE 'masters'. Apparently many of them go missing and are just never seen again...there was even a local Sheikh who apparently liked to take them out into the desert and drag them about chained to his car until they died. Something i found unbelievable, but she thinks is entirely plausible after living there. This of course never makes it into the media as it's owned and controlled by the ruling elite.

There's more, but I think you get the general idea. She got out of there as soon as she was old enough, although even then she needed her dad's approval to legally leave the country as she is technically his 'property' as an unmarried woman. She's also spent a lot of time in a few other Middle-Eastern countries, namely Saudia Arabia and Jordan, doesn't have anything nice to say about them either.

Don't get me wrong, she hates it here too. She recognises we suffer under a very different kind of oppression, but she feels safe at least, and knows her rights can't be entirely taken away without her at least being able to put up a fight if it came to it. She also lived in the USA till she was 10 and isn't fond of their government and their own brand of hypocrisy, although that might be because her parents are originally from Palestine, Trump's announcement last week didn't go down well in her household.

Basically, if you think the ruler of a country like the UAE should pass any fit and proper person test then you're mad. It doesn't matter who is better, what culture or beliefs are more acceptable, what is fair or unfair. It's still wrong.

But while they keep pumping money into our country, I don't see that changing.

As someone who lived in the Middle East for about 15 years, I find most of those stories seem not very plausible. Sure there are some such incidents where people are tortured and stuff but living in the Middle East is much easier than living in many other western countries due to various reasons.

The not able to report harassment thing seems pretty hard to believe too. I’ve heard tons of nationals sacked for that (and for other reasons like not working well too) from many companies. Those were probably one off instances in your wives’ companies more than anything

The maid thing is true though in that they are exploited. There are issues where the bosses take away their passports and don’t let them leave and stuff. There are also cases of rape.

 

[Needham]

As someone who lived in the Middle East for about 15 years, I find most of those stories seem not very plausible. Sure there are some such incidents where people are tortured and stuff but living in the Middle East is much easier than living in many other western countries due to various reasons.
The not able to report harassment thing seems pretty hard to believe too. I’ve heard tons of nationals sacked for that (and for other reasons like not working well too) from many companies. Those were probably one off instances in your wives’ companies more than anything
The maid thing is true though in that they are exploited. There are issues where the bosses take away their passports and don’t let them leave and stuff. There are also cases of rape.

So potentially not so great if you're a maid.

 

[villain]

People get their moralistic knickers in a twist about stuff that barely matters/harms no one, but for true big issues of justice they bury their heads in the sand. For all sorts of reasons.

I wonder. I'm going to stick my neck out and say Liverpool fans would not be comfortable with these people as owners. And we -for a while- had a decent and voluble protest going about debt restructuring, sure people would have an opinion if they ran Utd. It would be a major shame.

No, not quite at all.
I’ve been in both threads and posted quite heavily in both - I’m not sure what you expect people to do or engage in?
Literally nobody is going to argue that what the Arab states are doing is a good thing. However there are many who find what Griezmann did to not be offensive, even given the historical aspect of his actions.

It’s very easy to find issue with both aspects, and the amount of posts on an Internet forum doesn’t dictate that one is more morally outrageous than the other.
Again, I’m not sure what your point is in comparing the two.

 

[SuperiorXI]

As someone who lived in the Middle East for about 15 years, I find most of those stories seem not very plausible. Sure there are some such incidents where people are tortured and stuff but living in the Middle East is much easier than living in many other western countries due to various reasons.

The not able to report harassment thing seems pretty hard to believe too. I’ve heard tons of nationals sacked for that (and for other reasons like not working well too) from many companies. Those were probably one off instances in your wives’ companies more than anything

The maid thing is true though in that they are exploited. There are issues where the bosses take away their passports and don’t let them leave and stuff. There are also cases of rape.

I can't believe some of these posts. It's not so bad followed by some examples of why it is so bad.

 

[Seveneric]

At least when City walk the league this season then the fans start to brag and become smug about it, we all have something we can use against them.

There should be rules in place for who actually owns clubs, especially when they are involved in the kind of stuff their owners are involved in.

Yeah and if they win, they'll have the premier league trophy. But yeah, you and the others can comfort yourselves with that "moral high ground" trophy

 

[prath92]

So potentially not so great if you're a maid.

There are instances. But it’s reduced a lot since the 80s and 90s with the influx of the rest of the world to Dubai

 

[tomaldinho1]

Wow what bullshit is this? Qatar is ranked number 1 for GDP per capita and I assure you 99.999% of their citizens are incredibly wealthy and do not live in poverty camps ffs, what a load of shit, have you ever visited these countries, because I do regularly and go to the poor and rich areas, and believe me they are MUCH better off than the average citizen here. Majority the citizens of the Arab countries have good lives and they rank all in top 10 for GDPPC.

I'm not saying they are perfect but stop this crazy spreading of misinformation. Funny how everyone thinks they are an expert on Arab countries by reading the media and never actually visiting themselves.

Also in reply to Ducklegs, where do you think all the money from those tax cuts for the increadibly wealthy go to? All those MP expenses etc while cutting benefits to the people who need it the most and letting them starve or freeze.


(Had 1 post left, didn't realise. Have no posts left on limit to reply)

Completely forgetting the whole problem that migrants in Qatar (basically the backbone of the meteoric rise in the wealth the company has enjoyed) are treated, by numerous accounts, awfully. Whilst I agree we are too quickly swayed by the news the Qatar poverty crisis is something that is widely reported, accurately reported and a very public problem - there's overwhelming evidence from numerous credible news sources.

If you see migrants as a different entity to the rich Qataris then you're probably right but last time I checked a human rights apply to human beings and there is a serious problem in Qatar.

 

[prath92]

I can't believe some of these posts. It's not so bad followed by some examples of why it is so bad.

I never said it’s all good. Just that most of those instances the poster mentioned rarely seem to happen. It’s not some backward thinking country like the poster seemed to indicate.

 

[Ramshock]

Nations or states should be banned from financing football clubs especially with UEFA being so inept over FFP

 

[Rhyme Animal]

Nations or states should be banned from financing football clubs especially with UEFA being so inept over FFP

This.

It's bizarre. City are literally more like an arabic national team than a Mancunian footy club now.

 

[M18CTID]

City have sold their sold to the devil. Whatever it takes to try and be like United eh. Artificial success.

City fans are going to have to put up with being reminded of this for a very very long time. Anything they achieve will have an asterisk next to it. *Funded by murderers and slave owners.

Thanks for clearing that up. I really don't know how I'm ever going to sleep soundly at night from now on.

 

[2mufc0]

This.

It's bizarre. City are literally more like an arabic national team than a Mancunian footy club now.

This doesn't make sense, they haven't moved the stadium to Abu Dhabi. It's like saying United have become an American team.

They have also done a lot of investment in the Manchester area they are in.

I know we don't like City but let's not make ourselves look foolish.

 

[Rhyme Animal]

Thanks for clearing that up. I really don't know how I'm ever going to sleep soundly at night from now on.

Ironic, cuz your posts on here are certainly soporific, mate.

 

[M18CTID]

I think most posters have accepted that you're never going to get a perfect scenario, and - by it's nature - power and big business is always going to have questionable ties. There is a significant difference, however, in garnering the support of companies based in countries with questionable political environments in contrast to effectively being bank rolled by a state that has direct correlation with some of the acts mentioned in the initial article.

I understand that, from a fan's perspective, this might seem like a footballing issue but the reality of the matter with the likes of PSG and City is that it goes way beyond this. What is being achieved by the owners of these clubs has little to do with football, but much more with asserting themselves into an international sphere of influence whilst attempting to legitimise their global position. They have virtually no chance doing this off the back of their political credentials; despite having ratified aspects of the Geneva Convention, Qatar, for instance, is still to meet international requirements for migrant workers and refugees, though new laws for regarding working hours for migrants were passed in October. This is coupled with the covering up of information required by the international community, the entire Gulf area scores very poorly in the Freedom House's Map of Press Freedom. Football has become one of the international arenas they have been able to exploit in order to further their own international stance. We have a world cup in Qatar to come, alongside investment in practically every major European football club. I'd like to outline, as well, that I have zero issue with money from this part of the world coming into football - or the world cup going to Qatar - other than their breeching of international human rights. This is not me holding any prejudice to this part of the world, as it can - and does - happen globally.

I honestly don't care about the clubs these owners have invested their billions - in much the same fashion I don't think it particularly matters to them. What I do care about is this information coming to light, though we most probably won't see it covered by any of the major press outlets.

Yep - hard to disagree with most of that. With the WC coming up in Qatar in a few years, one would hope things improve from hereon in.

 

[Rhyme Animal]

This doesn't make sense, they haven't moved the stadium to Abu Dhabi. It's like saying United have become an American team.

They have also done a lot of investment in the Manchester area they are in.

United aren't owned by America.

Weird post from a Utd fan.

 

[Ecstatic]

Those unhappy with the current situation can only blame the British football authorities that enable any foreign investor to acquire a club.

Aside from the free zones, a British investor can't be the main shareholder of a company (including a football club) established in Qatar/the UAE.

Wild capitalism versus protectionism

Apologies. I thought you didn't know the difference between them, literally. As in, weren't even aware they were different countries. Ha.

No problem

 

[Needham]

No, not quite at all.
I’ve been in both threads and posted quite heavily in both - I’m not sure what you expect people to do or engage in?
Literally nobody is going to argue that what the Arab states are doing is a good thing.
However there are many who find what Griezmann did to not be offensive, even given the historical aspect of his actions.
It’s very easy to find issue with both aspects, and the amount of posts on an Internet forum doesn’t dictate that one is more morally outrageous than the other.
Again, I’m not sure what your point is in comparing the two.

In a ballsier world I would expect people to be far more engaged in the issues of justice flouted in places like the UAE than a footballer's fancy dress costume, so quit asking circuitous rhetorical questions. The tenor of the posts "defending" Griezmann seem mostly to be acknowledging he made a mistake which he was right to rectify. And the amount of posts on an internet forum may be anecdotally reflective of a wider problem with engagement which I've already mentioned. It's a shit sight easier to change the behaviour of Antoine Griezmann than it is the rulers of Abu Dhabi.

 

[M18CTID]

Ironic, cuz your posts on here are certainly soporific, mate.

Thanks. As a fellow "born and bred Brit", I find yours similarly so.

 

[2mufc0]

United aren't owned by America.

Weird post from a Utd fan.

Not really what you posted was nonsense. We often laugh at other forum fans yet here we are doing similar things.

 

[Bastian]

As someone who lived in the Middle East for about 15 years, I find most of those stories seem not very plausible. Sure there are some such incidents where people are tortured and stuff but living in the Middle East is much easier than living in many other western countries due to various reasons.

The not able to report harassment thing seems pretty hard to believe too. I’ve heard tons of nationals sacked for that (and for other reasons like not working well too) from many companies. Those were probably one off instances in your wives’ companies more than anything

The maid thing is true though in that they are exploited. There are issues where the bosses take away their passports and don’t let them leave and stuff. There are also cases of rape.

Is this all based on your 15 year experience living in a geographical region or something more tangible?

 

[Ecstatic]

Those unhappy with the current situation can only blame the British football authorities for enabling any foreign investor to acquire a club.

Aside from the free zones, a British investor can't be the main shareholder of a company (including a football club) established in Qatar/the UAE.

Wild capitalism versus protectionism...

Apologies. I thought you didn't know the difference between them, literally. As in, weren't even aware they were different countries. Ha.

No problem :-)

 

[prath92]

Is this all based on your 15 year experience living in a geographical region or something more tangible?

Yeah my experiences living there.

 

[2mufc0]

Those unhappy with the current situation can only blame the British football authorities for enabling any foreign investor to acquire a club.

Aside from the free zones, a British investor can't be the main shareholder of a company (including a football club) established in Qatar/the UAE.

Wild capitalism versus protectionism...



No problem :-)

Heard you the first time.

 

[MrPooni]

As someone who lived in the Middle East for about 15 years, I find most of those stories seem not very plausible. Sure there are some such incidents where people are tortured and stuff but living in the Middle East is much easier than living in many other western countries due to various reasons.

The not able to report harassment thing seems pretty hard to believe too. I’ve heard tons of nationals sacked for that (and for other reasons like not working well too) from many companies. Those were probably one off instances in your wives’ companies more than anything

The maid thing is true though in that they are exploited. There are issues where the bosses take away their passports and don’t let them leave and stuff. There are also cases of rape.

"Sure there's some occasional torture and rape and stuff, but I lived a pretty comfortable middle class existence out there for a while so it's fine"

Christ.

 

[2mufc0]

United having American investor owners is obviously not the same as city (or any other club) being owned by a fecking country/state, as I'm sure you're well aware.

So quite why you're posting such bizarre, delusional tripe, as a United fan, I cannot understand.

The only way someone could make themselves think that being bought (with debt) by the American Glazer family, and being owned completely by a middle-eastern country or state are in any similar is if that person were so anti-United that their views were open to bullshit of the highest order.

You know those two things aren't comparable, nobody could truly think they are.

OK forget the comparison let's deal with the original point you made.

Explain how City are an Arab national team? When they play in a domestic league not in Arabia?

 

[villain]

In a ballsier world I would expect people to be far more engaged in the issues of justice flouted in places like the UAE than a footballer's fancy dress costume, so quit asking circuitous rhetorical questions. The tenor of the posts "defending" Griezmann seem mostly to be acknowledging he made a mistake which he was right to rectify. And the amount of posts on an internet forum may be anecdotally reflective of a wider problem with engagement which I've already mentioned. It's a shit sight easier to change the behaviour of Antoine Griezmann than it is the rulers of Abu Dhabi.

Yeah, not quite.
What Antoine did happened only last night, plus the topic that it is centred around affects a larger amount of people directly especially in the political climate that we are in.
What the rulers of Abu Dhabi are doing is part of an ongoing problem that has gone on for many years, and for us in the UK, thankfully we don’t have to be subject to, directly.
Also, information on this subject is much harder to come by - I’ve been researching out of my own interest for the last two hours and haven’t come across a large amount of substational evidence in the free internet space, luckily I have access to lexisnexis and would-be content that id have to pay for to help supplement my curiosity to learn more. But that’s not something I’d imagine the average person would go to the lengths of finding out.
Therefore it’s natural and even common sense to see why more people would be engaged in the Antoine Griezmann thread.

It doesn’t mean that people are morally outraged at the wrong things, not at all.
There’s all kinds of morally outrageous things that are happening in the world right now.
The Libyan slave trade, the atrocities in Myanmar, the rate at which people are killed by dirsease, famine, poverty and war etc.
If we had a scale of moral failures and only selectively chose what we should and should not post about based on our own individual feelings about the subject matter - then why do we even have a football forum?
How can people have the time and energy to dare focus on comparatively trivial things such as football when there’s so much wrong going on in the world?

 

[Needham]

"Sure there's some occasional torture and rape and stuff, but I lived a pretty comfortable middle class existence out there for a while so it's fine"

Christ.

I'm still not sure that post wasn't satirical. "People are tortured and stuff..."

 

[Ramshock]

This.

It's bizarre. City are literally more like an arabic national team than a Mancunian footy club now.

City have access to a wealthy nations financial resources same with PSG.

 

[Bastian]

Yeah my experiences living there.

Granted, you have more of an insight into your own environment than a person who has never been there. But a single individual's experience of a specific geographical region is of very limited educational value. For instance, I could say that I lived in the States for 20 years and in my experience police brutality is not such a big issue. You know what I'm saying? Instead of forming your opinion based on my limited experience, you'd probably aggregate all the different tidbits of information you've gathered through articles, news broadcasts, from various first-person accounts, books and documentaries etc. And that would be quite logical.

Similarly, if I qualify a statement by first explaining my expertise, but then offer a statement that is void of any nuanced or detailed information, the qualifier is just a gimmick.

 

[Needham]

Yeah, not quite.
What Antoine did happened only last night, plus the topic that it is centred around affects a larger amount of people directly especially in the political climate that we are in.
What the rulers of Abu Dhabi are doing is part of an ongoing problem that has gone on for many years, and for us in the UK, thankfully we don’t have to be subject to, directly.
Also, information on this subject is much harder to come by - I’ve been researching out of my own interest for the last two hours and haven’t come across a large amount of substational evidence in the free internet space, luckily I have access to lexisnexis and would-be content that id have to pay for to help supplement my curiosity to learn more. But that’s not something I’d imagine the average person would go to the lengths of finding out.
Therefore it’s natural and even common sense to see why more people would be engaged in the Antoine Griezmann thread.

It doesn’t mean that people are morally outraged at the wrong things, not at all.
There’s all kinds of morally outrageous things that are happening in the world right now.
The Libyan slave trade, the atrocities in Myanmar, the rate at which people are killed by dirsease, famine, poverty and war etc.
If we had a scale of moral failures and only selectively chose what we should and should not post about based on our own individual feelings about the subject matter - then why do we even have a football forum?
How can people have the time and energy to dare focus on comparatively trivial things such as football when there’s so much wrong going on in the world?

Kudos to you for researching becauee that's real engagement. One of the reasons I love football is because its a trivial distraction from the daily madness, so I am sensitively averse to righteous feckers importing their serious political moral outrage into a nothing incident of flim flam like Griezmann's party clothes.

 

[villain]

Kudos to you for researching becauee that's real engagement. One of the reasons I love football is because its a trivial distraction from the daily madness, so I am sensitively averse to righteous feckers importing their serious political moral outrage into a nothing incident of flim flam like Griezmann's party clothes.

I appreciate the kudos, but I don’t think that just because what Antoine did can’t compare to centuries of human rights abuse, doesn’t mean that people aren’t allowed to call a spade a spade in that debate and rightfully call out ignorance when it rears it’s head.

 

[Needham]

I appreciate the kudos, but I don’t think that just because what Antoine did can’t compare to centuries of human rights abuse, doesn’t mean that people aren’t allowed to call a spade a spade in that debate and rightfully call out ignorance when it rears it’s head.

Except its not so much a spade as a tiny little plastic trowel small enough to fall out of a miniature Christmas cracker made for a dolls house. Antoine Griezmann and centuries of human rights abuses, holy shit.

 

[FlawlessThaw]

Kudos to you for researching becauee that's real engagement. One of the reasons I love football is because its a trivial distraction from the daily madness, so I am sensitively averse to righteous feckers importing their serious political moral outrage into a nothing incident of flim flam like Griezmann's party clothes.

Why don't you just ignore them? I mean it's not too difficult to ignore the stuff like moral outrage over Grizemann's blackface (that was the issue here, he could have dressed up as a Globetrotter and nothing would have happened).

When we lose, I tend to avoid clicking on stuff that I know will wind me up so it's really not that difficult.

 

[Theonas]

The main difference between rich people from that region and rich Westerners is how much is how far away from the horror they are personally involved in. A Sheick might do the horror himself, he might have factories supervised by his sons and nephews where they are basically enslaving people. A rich Brit or American will most likely have it taken care of all the way in India or Pakistan with several people between them in the chain of commands. I know where I'd rather live as despite the hypocrisy, it is better to live in a land where the wealthy still do not dare blatantly abuse and bully me. They at least give me the courtesy of pretending which is not to be underestimated and I would not switch it with anything in the world. But I also would perfectly understand why to a non Westerner, the moral high ground comes off as very annoying.

 

[Needham]

Why don't you just ignore them? I mean it's not too difficult to ignore the stuff like moral outrage over Grizemann's blackface (that was the issue here, he could have dressed up as a Globetrotter and nothing would have happened).

When we lose, I tend to avoid clicking on stuff that I know will wind me up so it's really not that difficult.

I do, generally speaking. Just found the arrival of these 2 threads on the same day apposite.

 

[FlawlessThaw]

This.

It's bizarre. City are literally more like an arabic national team than a Mancunian footy club now.

Wouldn't go that far, but certainly represent the interests of the Emirate of Abu Dhabi.

I remember Matthew Syed, who I'm not a huge fan of, making some interesting points about wealthy individuals/states using football purely for PR exercises. It was a bit beyond the comprehension of his co-pundit Tony Cascarino.

 

[MDFC Manager]

I can't believe some of these posts. It's not so bad followed by some examples of why it is so bad.

Is this all based on your 15 year experience living in a geographical region or something more tangible?

I've spent a similar number of years in the region, and I concur more with @prath92 than the other poster's gf.

 

[United_We_Stand]

UAE is a middle eastern non-democracy, what did you expect from them? Their rulers are "bad", but are they worse than Qatar or other regimes in the middle east? No, they're definitely not.
I have many relatives who have been living in UAE for years, and I have never heard from them about torture or any kind of systematic violation of non-political human rights. The only exception would be migrants working conditions and regulations.


I'm not trying to discredit the writer, but I suspected a Glenn Greenwald/Max Blumenthal-ish alt-left undertone, so I went through his twitter account, and he seems someone with genuine interest in human rights. But his holy grail seems to be Yemen, which may explain his exaggerated views on Abu Dhabi.

 

[MDFC Manager]

Another interesting point is that the vast majority of the foreign labor in UAE/Qatar etc stay and work there willingly, because those horrible conditions are still better than the extreme poverty they'd face in their home countries instead. There won't be many takers if someone offered those 'slaves' their 'freedom'. It's the world we live in. These lot have the money, and the countries to their east have the cheap labor.