The mid-field conundrum

bugmat

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I thought Matic and Fred were OK against WBA. Feels like Fred is more comfortable alongside McTominay, but Matic was fine. The problem is he can't last 90'.

It's kind of a problem, because considering the number of games we play this season and how frequently, I think McTominay will have to be key player in midfield.

Midfield stats updated
We seem to be doing pretty well with Matic-Fred midfield.
Matic had 89% of passing accuracy with total number of 94 (1 key pass) and won 3/4 aerial duels. I thought he moved the ball well. However, surprisingly had only 1/4 successful tackles, 2 interceptions and was dribbled 3 times. That's not good enough for defensive midfielder IMO.

Fred pass success was very good (92% of 56 passes), but he had only 3/8 successful tackles and was dribbled 5 times. I will keep a closer look on that stat to compare them in the future.
Those stats are meaningless w/o context. Matic was poor the whole game, and got lassoed several times (as in WBA player approaches pushed ball around him and is gone with matic in his dust). He rarely gets dribbled by because he is rarely close enough for that to become a stat. I remember late in the second half he tried a counter and the WBA Cm just calmly ran from behind straight in front of him ad took the ball away - like watching an old man play.

I was shocked at first that Ole took Fred off and left him on, but he was clearly saving Fred for the must-win game this Tuesday in Europe.
 

JJ12

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‘Heavy left wing’ ‘midfield conundrum’ ‘ole out ole in’ ‘woodward out’ ‘glazers out’ ‘Pogba’ ‘Martial not a 9’

We seem to have a lot of issues
 

Borys

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Those stats are meaningless w/o context. Matic was poor the whole game, and got lassoed several times (as in WBA player approaches pushed ball around him and is gone with matic in his dust). He rarely gets dribbled by because he is rarely close enough for that to become a stat. I remember late in the second half he tried a counter and the WBA Cm just calmly ran from behind straight in front of him ad took the ball away - like watching an old man play.

I was shocked at first that Ole took Fred off and left him on, but he was clearly saving Fred for the must-win game this Tuesday in Europe.
But I just said he was poor right? I only made a comment about his passing which was fine.
 

romufc

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City have two full backs that contribute regular to their attack same as Liverpool. Our full backs are nowhere near as effective as theirs. Telles may be different hopefully. If we had a proper DM we then can have another AM say VDB to play alongside Bruno where both could drift and at least one get into the box every attack.
Luke Shaw contributes to our play own the left too.
 

justsomebloke

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The diamond would likely work with DvB on the right side of it and Telles at LB so you get an attacking output on either flank. It puts a lot of pressure on the sole DM if you play Pogba in that LCM spot though.

Bruno
Pogba DvB
Fred?

Purely putting Fred there due to his mobility over McT.

If we're only going to play 3 of them then I think you could go for any of the following and it function...

Bruno/Pogba/DvB
Fred McT/Matic

The issue with that is that we've got too many 10s and no true DM. It's the one reason I can see for selling Pogba as we could create a better squad balance.
The midfield diamond is a totally logical response to the structure of the squad - we have more central midfielders than we can sensibly use in a 4231, and really just two wingers who meet the mark.

The problem is that in the two games where we've used it, we've generated no offensive pressure whatsoever. It was tactically excellent against Leipzig, who play with just 2 wing backs on the flank and rely on dominating the central midfield, but even there we were lucky to go ahead, and the last 4 goals all came late and on the counterattack, after we'd put on our best players with fresh legs and RBL had been broken by getting nowhere chasing an equaliser.

Against Arsenal, it was disastrous. Offensively we generated even less than against RBL, and since we never went ahead, we didn't get a counterattack phase of the game. Defensively, it played right into the hands of a team who use 4 players on the flanks and generate most of their offense there.

Maybe 2 games is too little to conclude, but other than as a tactical formation against certain teams, I would say the returns from those two games make a strong case against continuing in that direction.
 

P-Nut

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The midfield diamond is a totally logical response to the structure of the squad - we have more central midfielders than we can sensibly use in a 4231, and really just two wingers who meet the mark.

The problem is that in the two games where we've used it, we've generated no offensive pressure whatsoever. It was tactically excellent against Leipzig, who play with just 2 wing backs on the flank and rely on dominating the central midfield, but even there we were lucky to go ahead, and the last 4 goals all came late and on the counterattack, after we'd put on our best players with fresh legs and RBL had been broken by getting nowhere chasing an equaliser.

Against Arsenal, it was disastrous. Offensively we generated even less than against RBL, and since we never went ahead, we didn't get a counterattack phase of the game. Defensively, it played right into the hands of a team who use 4 players on the flanks and generate most of their offense there.

Maybe 2 games is too little to conclude, but other than as a tactical formation against certain teams, I would say the returns from those two games make a strong case against continuing in that direction.
I actually think the 5 at the back perfectly negates the attacking output of a diamond. It allows one of the centre backs to step out and press the AM during slow possession along with the 2 CMs dropping back in it leaves no space between the lines.

That's why I said it would require Telles and an attacking output on the right, probably supplied by DvB. Without that it does definitely become stifled when attacking.
 

jamesjimmybyrondean

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Certainties: Bruno and Fred are guaranteed starters no matter the opponent. Bruno with Fred and Mctominay double pivot are the best trio against tougher opponents but the worst against teams where we need to keep possession or control

That said we should experiment with Bruno Fred and Matic/Pogba/VdB against lower sides and see which is best
 

romufc

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Certainties: Bruno and Fred are guaranteed starters no matter the opponent. Bruno with Fred and Mctominay double pivot are the best trio against tougher opponents but the worst against teams where we need to keep possession or control

That said we should experiment with Bruno Fred and Matic/Pogba/VdB against lower sides and see which is best
One thing I have noticed, when we play with double pivot we are alot less open at the back. Surely having Rashford, Bruno, Mata, Martial and Telles supporting should be enough to create chances?

We tried Bruno, Matic and VDB against Istanbul and it was shocking. I do not think we can play Maguire and Matic in the same team. They are too slow to play together.
 

Bilbo

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Certainties: Bruno and Fred are guaranteed starters no matter the opponent. Bruno with Fred and Mctominay double pivot are the best trio against tougher opponents but the worst against teams where we need to keep possession or control

That said we should experiment with Bruno Fred and Matic/Pogba/VdB against lower sides and see which is best
I agree with you that there a lots of experimental possibilities with our midfield shape, but its difficult to find the games to do so. Perhaps Everton away in the League Cup. It wouldn't be the worst thing in the world if we went out of that competition.
 

Bilbo

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One thing I have noticed, when we play with double pivot we are alot less open at the back. Surely having Rashford, Bruno, Mata, Martial and Telles supporting should be enough to create chances?
Thats the big conundrum. We are much more balanced as a team when we do that, and we do create enough chances to win games, but it often doesn't lend itself to the free-flowing football that the fans want to see. Its undoubtedly the most sensible system that we can use at the moment though.
 

jamesjimmybyrondean

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One thing I have noticed, when we play with double pivot we are alot less open at the back. Surely having Rashford, Bruno, Mata, Martial and Telles supporting should be enough to create chances?

We tried Bruno, Matic and VDB against Istanbul and it was shocking. I do not think we can play Maguire and Matic in the same team. They are too slow to play together.
I think against lower oppositions or when we need to control and keep possession I'd personally like to see any of

Bruno
Fred VdB

Bruno
Fred Pogba

Bruno
Matic Fred
Bruno and Fred should always start no matter the opponent but Mctominay should be paired with them only against tougher opponents. That's if we are playing the 4-2-3-1. I just think even if we have enough creative players we are very sloppy in possession when we have all of Bruno Fred and Mctominay in the middle
 

romufc

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Thats the big conundrum. We are much more balanced as a team when we do that, and we do create enough chances to win games, but it often doesn't lend itself to the free-flowing football that the fans want to see. Its undoubtedly the most sensible system that we can use at the moment though.
We should not upset the balance of the team. Well, if we scored an early goal, 2 x Martial chances then the team is alot more confident and you will see free flowing football.

The longer it goes on, our players will get nervy because our manager will be nervy which transpires from the pressure he is under from the fans. We can all blame Ole but the more pressure we put on him the more defensive he will play, its that simple.

I don't mind seing 2/3 scruffy wins to get confidence only if after that we start playing with a bit more fluency.
 

UpWithRivers

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No system can work because we don't have the ideal players. 4-3-3, 5 at the back whatever. Makes no difference in the sense it will have massive weaknesses because a) we dont have a RW. b) We dont have an attacking RB. Whole RW is dysfunctional. Then you add lack of pace at the back. Then you add playing with a number 10. Yes Bruno has been a good player but his position necessitates tactically allowances to cover. Then you add the lack of anyone that can run wide and cross like normal wingers. Maybe James and Telles are the exceptions. Then you add the lack of players that can head the ball. Cavani possibly aside. Then you add that we are top heavy in certain positions - Pogba, Bruno, Donny are number 10's. Or at least need the freedom to roam and not be tactically restricted. As apposed to 1 true DM in Matic. Then you add the weaknesses of certain areas like the inability of 'our box to box CM's' Fred and Mc Tominay to pass or attack. It goes on and on.
Our team has great players individually but collectively its missing key ingredients to function against the majority of sides. Its great if we are given space and can hit on the break but the missing ingredients will always show in whatever system we play.
I for one say play two defensive midfielders. I dont care what game it is. People complain about being too defensive against West Brom. But I can guarantee that we would have lost that game without two defensive minded midfielders in Fred and Matic.
 

Bilbo

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We should not upset the balance of the team. Well, if we scored an early goal, 2 x Martial chances then the team is alot more confident and you will see free flowing football.

The longer it goes on, our players will get nervy because our manager will be nervy which transpires from the pressure he is under from the fans. We can all blame Ole but the more pressure we put on him the more defensive he will play, its that simple.

I don't mind seing 2/3 scruffy wins to get confidence only if after that we start playing with a bit more fluency.
I agree with you. We've had a lot of evidence now of things that don't work in our midfield, and things that do.
 

romufc

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I think against lower oppositions or when we need to control and keep possession I'd personally like to see any of

Bruno
Fred VdB

Bruno
Fred Pogba

Bruno
Matic Fred
Bruno and Fred should always start no matter the opponent but Mctominay should be paired with them only against tougher opponents. That's if we are playing the 4-2-3-1. I just think even if we have enough creative players we are very sloppy in possession when we have all of Bruno Fred and Mctominay in the middle
I don't actually think the midfield is as big of an issue as we think it is. Ole cannot find a way to tactically use the players we have.

If we went in with the dynamic midfield like you have mentioned, we could easily have AWB not attack as high and stay deeper, giving our midfield and defence a bit more protection.

We also need to have a higher line in games at home otherwise there is way too much space for teams to pop passes about.
 

UNITED ACADEMY

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The midfield diamond is a totally logical response to the structure of the squad - we have more central midfielders than we can sensibly use in a 4231, and really just two wingers who meet the mark.

The problem is that in the two games where we've used it, we've generated no offensive pressure whatsoever. It was tactically excellent against Leipzig, who play with just 2 wing backs on the flank and rely on dominating the central midfield, but even there we were lucky to go ahead, and the last 4 goals all came late and on the counterattack, after we'd put on our best players with fresh legs and RBL had been broken by getting nowhere chasing an equaliser.

Against Arsenal, it was disastrous. Offensively we generated even less than against RBL, and since we never went ahead, we didn't get a counterattack phase of the game. Defensively, it played right into the hands of a team who use 4 players on the flanks and generate most of their offense there.

Maybe 2 games is too little to conclude, but other than as a tactical formation against certain teams, I would say the returns from those two games make a strong case against continuing in that direction.
It is little to conclude. Diamond formation wasn't only used in RB Leipzig and arsenal but also we switched to diamond in 2nd half against PSG and it worked for us as game changer for Rashford’s goal.

The issue of it when we used it against Arsenal was Bruno & Pogba were underperforming, giving the ball away cheaply. Players off from their performance happened even when we played 4231 or 352.


DM
Fred - - Donny
Bruno​
I think that will look solid midfield 4 in my opinion.
 

croadyman

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We should not upset the balance of the team. Well, if we scored an early goal, 2 x Martial chances then the team is alot more confident and you will see free flowing football.

The longer it goes on, our players will get nervy because our manager will be nervy which transpires from the pressure he is under from the fans. We can all blame Ole but the more pressure we put on him the more defensive he will play, its that simple.

I don't mind seing 2/3 scruffy wins to get confidence only if after that we start playing with a bit more fluency.
Will give you that we saw a few of those scruffy wins in 11/12 after the 6-1 to City,however we found some flow around xmas that season but whether we are capable of doing that again remains to be seen
 

Lentwood

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I don't have a problem with the midfield, it's the attacking three that doesn't work for me right now.

I posted elsewhere about the role of a CM in a PL game. I'm not interested in goals or assists from Fred and McTominay. The very first thing any team should look to achieve is to be solid at the back and difficult to play through. Our back four and McFred gives you that.

What that then leaves you is four players who are responsible for creating and scoring goals. Bruno is clearly the most effective player we have in the 'attacking midfielder' role, so he picks himself. You then have to work out what combination of Martial, Cavani, Rashford and Greenwood to play and how to set them up to create/score as many as possible
 

romufc

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Will give you that we saw a few of those scruffy wins in 11/12 after the 6-1 to City,however we found some flow around xmas that season but whether we are capable of doing that again remains to be seen
It is natural for teams to do that because of the lack of confidence. At the start of the season, Maguire, Shaw, AWB, Lindelof had 0 confidence and now our attack has no confidence. Its worrying that rarely do we see all 11 of our players play with confidence.

Throughout Ole's reign its always been about individuals.
 

tjb

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I don't have a problem with the midfield, it's the attacking three that doesn't work for me right now.

I posted elsewhere about the role of a CM in a PL game. I'm not interested in goals or assists from Fred and McTominay. The very first thing any team should look to achieve is to be solid at the back and difficult to play through. Our back four and McFred gives you that.

What that then leaves you is four players who are responsible for creating and scoring goals. Bruno is clearly the most effective player we have in the 'attacking midfielder' role, so he picks himself. You then have to work out what combination of Martial, Cavani, Rashford and Greenwood to play and how to set them up to create/score as many as possible
McFred can work, but i think due to how static the front three's we have are, having bruno drop into midfield in a 433 allows us to link up better. What's the point of Bruno pressing high up the pitch if our press isnt aggressive....what's the point of him starting high up when our midfield and defence can't build up play to the final third.
 

Borys

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The midfield diamond is a totally logical response to the structure of the squad - we have more central midfielders than we can sensibly use in a 4231, and really just two wingers who meet the mark.

The problem is that in the two games where we've used it, we've generated no offensive pressure whatsoever. It was tactically excellent against Leipzig, who play with just 2 wing backs on the flank and rely on dominating the central midfield, but even there we were lucky to go ahead, and the last 4 goals all came late and on the counterattack, after we'd put on our best players with fresh legs and RBL had been broken by getting nowhere chasing an equaliser.

Against Arsenal, it was disastrous.
Offensively we generated even less than against RBL, and since we never went ahead, we didn't get a counterattack phase of the game. Defensively, it played right into the hands of a team who use 4 players on the flanks and generate most of their offense there.

Maybe 2 games is too little to conclude, but other than as a tactical formation against certain teams, I would say the returns from those two games make a strong case against continuing in that direction.
I agree with your points. Result against RB was great but firstly, we scored 5 goals from 6 shots, and secondly we scored a lot of counter-attack goals. We didn't control the game, we just defended very well. I don't think it was a proper diamond anyway, because

Fred was all over the midfield against RB


While he sat in front of the defense against Arsenal.

Arse did really well because they didn't press Fred and just covered everybody else in midfield. We had no answer to that, because Fred is not a Pivot, he can only play as supporting midfielder.

Thats the big conundrum. We are much more balanced as a team when we do that, and we do create enough chances to win games, but it often doesn't lend itself to the free-flowing football that the fans want to see. Its undoubtedly the most sensible system that we can use at the moment though.
Correct. We actually create similar number of chances to our golden period (season restart), although their quality isn't that good.
We should not upset the balance of the team. Well, if we scored an early goal, 2 x Martial chances then the team is alot more confident and you will see free flowing football.

The longer it goes on, our players will get nervy because our manager will be nervy which transpires from the pressure he is under from the fans. We can all blame Ole but the more pressure we put on him the more defensive he will play, its that simple.

I don't mind seing 2/3 scruffy wins to get confidence only if after that we start playing with a bit more fluency.
Yes, this is what happened against RB and made us much more comfortable. The performance itself wasn't amazing, but you can look up the emotional reaction to that game.

I don't actually think the midfield is as big of an issue as we think it is. Ole cannot find a way to tactically use the players we have.

If we went in with the dynamic midfield like you have mentioned, we could easily have AWB not attack as high and stay deeper, giving our midfield and defence a bit more protection.

We also need to have a higher line in games at home otherwise there is way too much space for teams to pop passes about.
None of those midfield setups is more dynamic than Fred-McTominay, I think you meant something different?

Regarding the higher line - it's a difficult one to be honest, I think we would have to play Shaw in CB or McTominay as RCB for safety.

The only games in which we should play Matic is when we'll be defending IMO. He is too slow to track back effectively, and he doesn't do much offensively anyway so don't think it makes sense to play him against weaker sides that will sit back and counter.
 
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Lentwood

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For me, you don't sacrifice stability to score more goals. You want control, you want stability. Even with incredible forwards, great attacking play without control and without stability is doomed to fail.

If the back four with McFred holding in-front gives us that stability, then we pick that week-in, week-out and work out how to score goals.

We don't undo the good work we have done finding that formula for control/stability and discard it because the four players we have selected to score goals/create goals aren't quite working effectively right now.
 

UmbroDays

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This is what I posted in the other thread:


To me he CAN, but that wouldn't be his best position. But either way, as far forward and playing for as long as possible, is the best for him.

He essentially is a Dutch Scholes in terms of movement, speed, thought, box presence, etc. I believe his best role in our current shape is where Bruno plays, but he's a different style of player than Bruno with more shorter, quicker and intricate touches, more movement off the ball to receive the ball in space, rather than being the QB from the middle of the park.

Ajax attacked like a unit where 4/5 players would move the ball together, change positions on the fly to end up in an advanced position - if you see his being season (2018/2019) a lot of his goals or assists were from being in the box. We on the other hand rely on less players to move the ball, but use pace and longer passes and rely on 1of our 2/3 players to make a final dash into the box e.g. quick pass-and-go with Rash & Bruno through ball to Martial/a shot; that relies a lot on physicality and pace.

If we aren't going to carve a space for him, I'd put him on the right of a front 3, but not to provide width, but to exchange passes with the more central Bruno. If he plays on the right of a front three, then I don't think AWB will benefit having him in front of him in regards to getting balls into the box, but AWB will benefit from more pass-and-gos, having a free man to pass to and defensive line breaking runs. I notice on the right that we don't regularly get someone running in behind and the ball being passed to that runner. That is where I think AWB can benefit, as it hides his lack of crossing ability. If VdB or AWB get in behind the line, you'll just need to smash it across the box.

The thing is, unless Ole is willing to try this against teams what we should beat, then the VdB project will fail if he comes on with 12 minutes to go, or doesn't get a good run of 4/5 games.

Yesterday i would have tried Bruno sitting in a deeper QB position:


Or


I'd personally like to see us go forward with the following formation against a weaker team with a little more attacking punch:




These are his highlights from his most standout season, look at his positioning, short passes, short movement into space, runs behind the defense INSIDE of the box, etc:

I think ultimately this quote says it the best:


I have no more posts left for today so I need to extend this post. But look at this post and see the issues we have with no clever, inbetween-the-lines players: https://threader.app/thread/1324357723278987265
 

Lanesy

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I’m a big fan of the diamond when utilised properly. And with so many central mids and lack of wide mids available, it’s the logical choice of formation.

McTom

Fred Bruno

VDB

That’s what I’d go for. Fred on the right rather than as the DM because he’s the most mobile and this allows him to press higher up the pitch which he excels in (two of the goals against Leipzig came from Fred dispossessing them high and laying it off quickly and simply.)

Also, you need the two CM’s to be hard working, full of stamina, energetic and willing runners. The opposition will inevitably look to attack down the space on the wings with frequents switches of play. It’s important that the two CM’s close down the space as quickly as possible on their respective wings, with the diamond shape in tow and narrowing the space in which the opposition can play.

Bruno over Pogba as the other CM for me, simply because he works much harder for the team. And he will still have license to roam and get forward when on the attack.

McTom really struggled in that role but I think he’s perfect for the DM position. His main job is to protect the back four. No forwards runs, something that Matic didn’t seem to grasp against Istanbul which left holes in between the defence and midfield that were easily exploited.

Finally, the two wingbacks MUST get forward at every opportunity and be an outlet when going forward, which didn’t really happen against Arsenal and Istanbul.
 

justsomebloke

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I’m a big fan of the diamond when utilised properly. And with so many central mids and lack of wide mids available, it’s the logical choice of formation.

McTom

Fred Bruno

VDB

That’s what I’d go for. Fred on the right rather than as the DM because he’s the most mobile and this allows him to press higher up the pitch which he excels in (two of the goals against Leipzig came from Fred dispossessing them high and laying it off quickly and simply.)

Also, you need the two CM’s to be hard working, full of stamina, energetic and willing runners. The opposition will inevitably look to attack down the space on the wings with frequents switches of play. It’s important that the two CM’s close down the space as quickly as possible on their respective wings, with the diamond shape in tow and narrowing the space in which the opposition can play.

Bruno over Pogba as the other CM for me, simply because he works much harder for the team. And he will still have license to roam and get forward when on the attack.

McTom really struggled in that role but I think he’s perfect for the DM position. His main job is to protect the back four. No forwards runs, something that Matic didn’t seem to grasp against Istanbul which left holes in between the defence and midfield that were easily exploited.

Finally, the two wingbacks MUST get forward at every opportunity and be an outlet when going forward, which didn’t really happen against Arsenal and Istanbul.
What about defensively against teams who attack chiefly down the flanks, and use a wingback AND a wide forward on either side? In this formation, there is just the two full backs to deal with that, which negates their ability to commit offensively, which you consider vital. The theory is that the two central players in the diamond need to move out to the sides when not in possession, but that didn't work well against Arsenal, plus it leaves the central midfield underpopulated. Even if it does work, it's still difficult for the full backs to go forward. Also, there is still nothing to suggest any kind of offensive dynamism being generated with this formation in the two games it's been used.

In any case, if you're going to play a diamond it is self-evident that Bruno goes on the tip.
 

Lanesy

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What about defensively against teams who attack chiefly down the flanks, and use a wingback AND a wide forward on either side? In this formation, there is just the two full backs to deal with that, which negates their ability to commit offensively, which you consider vital. The theory is that the two central players in the diamond need to move out to the sides when not in possession, but that didn't work well against Arsenal, plus it leaves the central midfield underpopulated.
It didn't work well against Arsenal because we had McTom and Pogba as the CM's and they weren't urgent enough to shift over and press. The idea is that the whole diamond shifts over together and combined with the FB, CB and FW doing their bit, you suffocate the space and the only outlet becomes the opposite flank, and then you shift over when the ball gets switched. Any early crosses that come in, we should be narrow enough and have the bodies in the middle to deal with it.

Failing that, you could even defend as a 4-4-2 or even a 4-4-1-1 and then transition to a diamond in attack.

Even if it does work, it's still difficult for the full backs to go forward. Also, there is still nothing to suggest any kind of offensive dynamism being generated with this formation in the two games it's been used.
Our wing backs weren't given the license to get forward at every opportunity which stifled our build up. When you consider Madrid's diamond from their last CL win, they had Marcelo and Carvajal as the WB's and they were practically wingers with how offensive they were. Of course, our WB's aren't as good as those but I still believe they are capable. The one time Shaw got forward against Istanbul, he set up Martial's goal with a great cross.

In any case, if you're going to play a diamond it is self-evident that Bruno goes on the tip.
Is it? Why not VDB in there and play the both of them together? Bruno works harder but VDB is the better technician so would make sense to get him on the ball higher up the pitch.
 
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Borys

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Is this still considered as an issue? 10 games since dropping Pogba - Matic. 7 wins, 2 losses, 1 draw in many different midfield setups. Over 2 goals scored per game on average, less than one goal per game conceded, xG-xGA>2 for the last three games (better than Liverpool, Chelsea and Tottenham, on par with ManCity).

And all that with our supposedly best midfielder out of the team.
 

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Just buy a top class DM no matter the cost and the team will pick itself ffs. Sick of banging on about it.

Has to happen, it's the main (only) conundrum in team selection. We can't be playing Fred and Mctominay together to make up for the fact we don't have a decent DM, and that's precisely what we are doing.

------------- NEW DM ------------
------- Fred --------- VDB -------
----------------Bruno----------------

That has defensive solidity, creativity and balance. You could swap Fred for Scott or Pogba if he stays.

It would give us excellent options in midfield. Most important position to strengthen in order for us to take a major step forward in both progression and consistency imo.
 

el3mel

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Is this still considered as an issue? 10 games since dropping Pogba - Matic. 7 wins, 2 losses, 1 draw in many different midfield setups. Over 2 goals scored per game on average, less than one goal per game conceded, xG-xGA>2 for the last three games (better than Liverpool, Chelsea and Tottenham, on par with ManCity).

And all that with our supposedly best midfielder out of the team.
The problem was with us trying so hard to accommodate a one player like Pogba who doesn't fit with literally any other midfielder we have. We look more balanced now that we're not forcing such thing.

I'll say though with his current form Matic should only play cup games and used as a rotation option. I believe our best midfield currently should involve VDB-Fred-Bruno, and put Scott instead of VDB when you need more solidity in big games.
 
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Borys

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Yes. The same was with us trying so hard to accommodate a one player like Pogba who doesn't fit with literally any other midfielder we have. We look more balanced now that we're not forcing such thing.

I'll say though with his current form Matic should only play cup games and used as a rotation option. I believe our best midfield currently should involve VDB-Fred-Bruno, and put Scott instead of VDB when you need more solidity in big games.
"Yes" what? I didn't get your point. I asked if the midfield is still considered as an issue. We seem to be doing well in any setup if Pogba is not included.

Agreed about Matic.
 

bosnian_red

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Yes. The same was with us trying so hard to accommodate a one player like Pogba who doesn't fit with literally any other midfielder we have. We look more balanced now that we're not forcing such thing.

I'll say though with his current form Matic should only play cup games and used as a rotation option. I believe our best midfield currently should involve VDB-Fred-Bruno, and put Scott instead of VDB when you need more solidity in big games.
Yep. Rotate Matic with Fred, McTominay with Van de Beek and Bruno with Pogba. Any other combination of them will either be too defensive or too attacking, unbalanced either way.
 

Volumiza

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I believe our best midfield currently should involve VDB-Fred-Bruno, and put Scott instead of VDB when you need more solidity in big games.
I believe you’re right. These two variations have shown to be successful and should be our first choice midfields depending on the opponents.
 

OleTheGreat

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Just buy a top class DM no matter the cost and the team will pick itself ffs. Sick of banging on about it.

Has to happen, it's the main (only) conundrum in team selection. We can't be playing Fred and Mctominay together to make up for the fact we don't have a decent DM, and that's precisely what we are doing.

------------- NEW DM ------------
------- Fred --------- VDB -------
----------------Bruno----------------

That has defensive solidity, creativity and balance. You could swap Fred for Scott or Pogba if he stays.

It would give us excellent options in midfield. Most important position to strengthen in order for us to take a major step forward in both progression and consistency imo.
With a good defensive midfielder we can actually play 4-3-3 with either VDB or Pogba alongside Bruno in the number 8 position. That should be the way to go! 4-2-3-1 sucks. We need somebody alongside Bruno who can float around in the offensive area but also have help in midfield.
 

Crashoutcassius

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With a good defensive midfielder we can actually play 4-3-3 with either VDB or Pogba alongside Bruno in the number 8 position. That should be the way to go! 4-2-3-1 sucks. We need somebody alongside Bruno who can float around in the offensive area but also have help in midfield.
if we are honest, pogbas time has probably gone. I don't think we should sign any player with a view to accomodate pogba. He just hasn't shown he can do it, actively looking to leave.

We need centre mids or maybe just one, we should look for one to partner players we already have, whether it is fred or dvdb... maybe different combos in different games.

Feels like we can be more decisive about our next move if we just accept pogba is gone and we are probably better without him given that we have bruno and can hopefully still add creativity on the right wing either through signings of young players like diallo
 

drunkmonkmeth

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The only way pogba and bruno could work is with a fernandinho or prime casimero type cdm. But even then bruno loses the ball alot attempting flair passes and pogba loses the ball alot trying to dribble out of midfield. I kind of doubt that even with the best cdm in the world they could really play well together there just isnt the right balance because pogba is lazy, slow and useless off the ball.

if you look at some of the best midfields in recent times..

you have fernandinho silva and debruyne.. fernandinho the cdm covering defense. debruyne the risk taker and silva the guy who doesnt lose the ball yet still had creativity, vision and goals.

Xavi iniesta busquets are also very similar. Busquets the cdm. Xavi the guy who never loses the ball and Iniesta who takes the most risk and bring goals from midfield. Though his passing and driving the attack from midfield was always so clean nothing he didnwas really a risk.

Casimero modric and kroos.
Very similar with casimero protecting defense modric had great work rate and was tidy with the ball and kroos was also very tidy but creative. None really brought much goals but they all complimented each other strengths.


The closest we can do to this level of balance is fred, dvdb and bruno or pogba if he becomes good again.

Fred as the cdm protecting defense.. great workrate but a little small in size which hurts sometimes.
Dvdb as the tidy passer who doesnt lose the ball. Has also shown great creativity and range of passing + great workrate and decent numbers defensively. Then bruno as the risk taker/goals from midfield. He also has great defensive workrate imo. Pogba at his best could fill brunos role.. but not anyone else.. but even then hes such a defensive liability wed need a worldclass cdm to compliment him.

Pogba, pirlo and vidal worked because at the time vidal was one of the best cdms in the world and has a tremendous workrate strength and speed.. but also offered alot on the ball too. Pirlo was effortless in midfield and rarely made an error. The lack of errors allowed pogba to shine and the speed of play in italy allowed pogba to be slow off the ball. That being said pogba had his best season statistically at manchester under jose.


I
 

el3mel

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"Yes" what? I didn't get your point. I asked if the midfield is still considered as an issue. We seem to be doing well in any setup if Pogba is not included.

Agreed about Matic.
I'm agreeing with your point it hasn't been an issue since Pogba was dropped. Wasn't a literal response to your question hahaha.

I think the rest of my post made it obvious. I will edit the post anyway. :D
 

OleTheGreat

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if we are honest, pogbas time has probably gone. I don't think we should sign any player with a view to accommodate pogba. He just hasn't shown he can do it, actively looking to leave.

We need centre mids or maybe just one, we should look for one to partner players we already have, whether it is fred or dvdb... maybe different combos in different games.

Feels like we can be more decisive about our next move if we just accept pogba is gone and we are probably better without him given that we have bruno and can hopefully still add creativity on the right wing either through signings of young players like diallo
If Pogba doesn't want to renew his contract, he can go anywhere he wants. I think we'll only get about 50% of what we paid for him. But if he somehow convinces and stays, he can turns things around. If anybody can do it, it's him. I know we have all grown frustrated of his attitude and have finally found a team which despite him have done well. I think him being around will aid in our favor somewhere down the line. I really thought he would do great things with Bruno on the pitch and we all saw bits and pieces of that when they played together every time but I'm guessing he wanted that number 10 role and nobody gave him that slot. Bruno came in and has been just beyond wonderful. Pogba has to learn to live with it or he can leave. Even though I'm a big fan of him (which I've repeated constantly) I think he can leave if his heart is not set on playing for United because as we all know, nothing is bigger than the club.
 

lex talionis

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We’ve got lots of good options in midfield. My main concern is final third play and set piece defending. Revolve both on a consistent basis and we’re in pretty decent shape.