The monumental effort of rebuilding

Discussion in 'Manchester United Forum' started by bond19821982, Sep 5, 2019.

  1. Sep 6, 2019
    #41

    El Zoido Full Member

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    Every manager is a new rebuild, so we haven’t been rebuilding for six years. We rebuilt for less than a year, sacked Moyes, rebuilt for two years under LVG, sacked him, started the rebuild over again under Mourinho, sacked him. Started the rebuild again now under Solskjaer, fans want him sacked four games in to the season so we can start a new rebuild next summer with a manger that will make us world beaters in the space of a summer break. If he doesn’t win the first four games we will demand him sacked so we can start a new rebuild in 2021.

    So no we will probably never get back to where we were.
  2. Sep 6, 2019
    #42

    Ekeke Full Member

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    Where we want to be has been "not shit, not outside the top 4" consistently. The problem is the squad and managers havent kept to that and have been fired
  3. Sep 6, 2019
    #43

    Ekeke Full Member

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    Actually LVG and Mourinho had a lot of support when they first came in. Its not about winning 4 games, its about looking like you might have something and that progress is being made. Ole's United currently looks like its going backwards from where it was when he took over and our players were just enjoying a nicer atmosphere than under Mourinho, which ended when players picked up injuries and we never got the momentum back
  4. Sep 6, 2019
    #44

    InLevyITrust Full Member

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    But you cant expect a manager to come in and be a success especially after what Fergie did, especially when the league has changed a lot with regards to competitiveness and money since he retired. The whole "we will be happy as long as we are entertained" argument is rubbish, you could play entertaining football but if you lose or draw more than you fans will be pissed off.
  5. Sep 6, 2019
    #45

    El Zoido Full Member

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    I disagree, I think we’re looking like we’re building a cohesive side for the first time since Fergie left. We’re signing and promoting players that fit the playstyle, and dropping and selling those that don’t. None of this “my captain must play” crap, or signing strikers like Lukaku that don’t suit the system. No more random mismatch of players, no more big money signings just because of their name. It’ll take time but this strategy will pay off in the long run.
  6. Sep 6, 2019
    #46

    Denis79 Full Member

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    It is going to be very interesting next transfer window. We will have cut our wages significantly and trimmed our team down to it's bare bones.

    De Gea doesn't seem to want to renew his contract and Pogba will only have a year left on his contract and most likely be sold. Matic and Youngs contracts are expiring and I can't see them being renewed. So in a period of two years we will have offloaded. Lukaku, Herrera, Fellaini, Smalling, Darmian, Matic, Young, Valencia, and more likely than not De Gea and Pogba as well. Sanchez might extend his loan which would cover some of his wages.

    That is a lot of first-team players and many of them need to be replaced. It could get worse even, what if Lingard doesn't improve this season? Do we still persist with him? If Martial and Rashford don't produce enough goals? Don't we strengthen with another striker?

    The Clubs traditional 100M net spend won't be enough in any scenario. We know that the Glazers took out new loans against the club this year to fund some of their other projects. Would they do the same to invest back in the club?

    The men in charge won't have any excuses next summer if we don't make top 4. They'll show their true colours then.
  7. Sep 6, 2019
    #47

    romufc Full Member

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    Hmm not sure If I have heard this before.

    Lets be honest until Ed Woodward hires a DoF we will be crap.

    Every year we are going into a transfer window thinking the manager will be sacked by December so this rebuild gets refreshed every 2 years.
  8. Sep 6, 2019
    #48

    BeforeKeanetherewasRobson Full Member

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    It might not be anywhere near how we looked in the "good" Ole times last season but it's better than what he inherited.... unhappy players, loads of average players, overpaid, aging.

    At the very least, the defence is better, the squad is thinner (admittedly should have had a couple more replacements) and some of the deadwood has been moved on/loaned out which at least sends a message.

    Marginal improvement maybe but I still think a bit better. If Ole/the team can get their shit together (better formations, tactics, subs and players putting in some effort), we should challenge top.4 (low ambitions I realise) and hopefully get 2/3 more in next transfer windows.

    It's going to be small steps and 2-3 years (min).
  9. Sep 6, 2019
    #49

    Denis79 Full Member

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    I agree but this time most of us fans realize that our team isn't good enough to battle with the top 2 and that a top 4 finish will be difficult. If we don't make top 4 and we lose De Gea and Pogba the task will be monumental. Not only would we need a DOF but significant funds to aid him.
  10. Sep 6, 2019
    #50

    romufc Full Member

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    We have to be very clever in our signings IMO.

    There is no way we are spending £40/60m per signing on 5/6 positions.

    If we get a DoF, good scouting we could get a £80m RW with Lukaku money.

    Considering we have approx £150m to spend then you would look to get 1 CAM at £80m? then you need to spend £70m on 3 signings? LB, CDM
  11. Sep 6, 2019
    #51

    Lentwood Full Member

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    This is the first summer the Board seem to accept a rebuild is necessary though, which makes a big difference

    I’m fairly certain Ed’s previous behaviour demonstrates that he thought he could just appoint a big name manager, sign a couple of big name players and Premier League title here we come...!
  12. Sep 6, 2019
    #52

    Denis79 Full Member

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    Thing is the Glazers are quick to take out loans against the club for other projects, why not do the same to invest back in the club? The financial power of United is stronger than the net spend of 100M / season we've had so far and if this project with young players fails we'll be in a deep hole imo. Looking back on how we operate with Woodward in charge this scenario is more likely = Ole will be sacked for not making top 4 and a new manager will be given 100M to spend, no matter how badly we finish the season and who leaves the club. Even if we sold Pogba only a fraction of the transfer sum will be given for re-investment. Forget the Lukaku money that won't be given to the next manager. Net spend of around 100M seems to be Woodwards modus operandi.
  13. Sep 6, 2019
    #53

    Fosu-Mens Full Member

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    What's most difficult, but critical, about rebuilding a squad or an organization is the culture. Either it is changing the less than ideal culture, keeping the ethical values or creating a good culture in the team.
    - Like the winning and self-driven culture in the squad, we have lost with the number of long-standing players leaving soon after SAF retired.

    This culture/values/fundamentals must come from both the manager and certain pivotal players and the rest of the players will(not including extreme individualist) will follow or be imprinted by this culture (good or bad).
    - I assume that the reason they paid £80m for Maguire was partly that OGS thinks he will be one of these pivotal culture creators because his footballing ability is not worth close to that sum regardless of nationality.

    If a good culture is in place, then the rest is about finding the players that will suit this team (not easy with the people involved in our recruitment based on track record) and finding a manager that can coach the team to perform on the pitch.

    While I think OGS is far away from being good enough as a coach (technically) or as a manager (tactically), the one thing he excels at is interacting with people. He created a very good culture within the squad at Molde. And if he is able to create these fundamental organizational values/culture within our team, then he will be a success no matter what. Since having a good culture is vital for an organization of humans to function and perform long term.
  14. Sep 6, 2019
    #54

    romufc Full Member

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    The Glazers thing is something on its own. As fans, we can try and put pressure but as long as they see it as its only a "minority" of fans, they won't care and nothing will happen. The Glazers out movement will only work if majority of the fan base get behind this and I do not see this happening.

    We will not get anywhere near top 2 and in 2 years we wont get near top4 if the current business model is in operation where Ed Woodward is not questioned. He hired LVG and Jose with no joy. He hired Ole and if this fails, someone has to really look at it and realise it can't be all the manager.

    Until something really drastic happens, we will not move forward. We need to be ruthless at board level with accountability.
  15. Sep 6, 2019
    #55

    Denis79 Full Member

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    Completely agree with you.
  16. Sep 6, 2019
    #56

    Eric's Seagull Full Member

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    I agree with your post. I think that Ole has not been given a good enough platform to build from by Woodward and should it not go to plan, Woodward will use Ole as the scapegoat and just sack him and move on to the next manager ignore the gaping holes in the squad and start again.

    I would have rather taken players in part exchange for Pogba this summer as I don't have faith Wooodward will invest the full fee into transfers, I think he will Pogba will be sold next summer and our budget will come from this and the rest will go in the Glazer's pockets, which I feel is where the Lukaku money went.
  17. Sep 6, 2019
    #57

    Ekeke Full Member

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    I think you'll find its the same stuff just with new players. For example if Maguire has bad form, he's not going to be dropped either. Lukaku did suit the system Mourinho wanted, it just wasnt a good system. Likewise Ole is signing players for his system which we'll see later on if its any better than Mourinho's
  18. Sep 6, 2019
    #58

    RedDevil@84 Full Member

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    And a CEO and preferably new owners too.
  19. Sep 6, 2019
    #59

    UpWithRivers Full Member

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    Rebuilding is such a nonsensical nonsense that’s only applied to United for the top teams. It might take 3 years to transform to winning trophies and challenging City, Liverpool but it should not apply to beating Crystal Palace and Southampton etc. Brendan Rodgers has been at Leicester City for what 6 months and has already implemented his methodology, Graham Potter at Brighton has already set up his team completely differently to Hughton, Emery has a methodology and not been there long and on and on. Yes have a long term plan but also have a short term one and the short term plan should not be wait until the long term plan kicks in and accept losing. At Utd we still don’t even have a proper long term plan. We have no idea what Ole and the board is trying to do – the only rumblings are hungry, young and British and counter attack. That’s hardly a cohesive plan. Look at Liverpool’s Moneyball and Cities structure. Whether you agree with it or not it is a comprehensive structure tying all aspects of the club together. We don’t even have a DOF. Or a plan or jack. All we have is get the old lads together that know the club. What sort of nonsense is this.
    I would challenge anyone that keeps saying we are rebuilding to define what that actually means - buy and sell a few players over the next 3 seasons and play the youngsters until we get good and in the meanwhile accept we will be 5-10th and loose to relegation fodder? What sort of plan is that.
  20. Sep 6, 2019
    #60

    Gandalf Full Member

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    Based on the work he did at Molde, reshaping the team and leading them to the first league titles in their history, my highly educated guess is that he is the right manager for the job. You obviously have a different opinion. The proof of which of us is correct is a couple of years away at the present as this team is not close to being the finished article.
  21. Sep 6, 2019
    #61

    RocketRed New Member

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    5. Get a world-class manager who has demonstrated they can improve players

    I'd say this is the most important and where United is lacking. Even if you weren't doing 1-4 you'd still get some improvement
  22. Sep 6, 2019
    #62

    Roboc7 Full Member

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    I don’t think you can even call this a rebuild it’s just what this club does now. Stumbles around, wastes money and ends up with a squad that isn’t fit for purpose and has no identity.

    The reality is that there isn’t fortunes to spend, even if Pogba is sold we’re looking at a transfer budget of 200m. Given the extortionate prices and our lack of competence buying players that’s a drop in the ocean.

    I don’t see how any real rebuild can begin until there is a DOF or structure at the club and in all honesty a new and more talented manager. Best case scenario is this is an attempt to purge the club and the first step in some form of plan but won’t hold my breath.
  23. Sep 6, 2019
    #63

    Fosu-Mens Full Member

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    Don't expect much from OGS. Best we can hope for is that he is able to create a good culture within the squad and the coaching staff, similar to what he has done at Molde. If he can do this then we should be very happy.
  24. Sep 6, 2019
    #64

    Murder on Zidane's Floor You'd better not kill Giroud

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    Being a millionaire is great until people start charging you £1500 for jeans. You're time as a millionaire will soon disappear.
  25. Sep 6, 2019
    #65

    Zlatattack Full Member

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    If De Gea and Pogba stay - it'll be easier. If they go we're stuffed (more so than we already are).

    Our current team looks like this;

    DDG
    AWB Lindelof Maguire Shaw
    McTomminay Fred
    Lingard Pogba Rashford
    Martial
    Our plan B looks like this;

    Romero
    Dalot Jones Taunzebe Young
    Matic Garner
    Periera Mata James
    Greenwood​

    We also have Jones and Rojo floating around, Gomes, Chong, TFM.

    Assuming De Gea and Pogba stay, we need to upgrade;

    RW
    CM x2
    ST
    LB

    5 players - it's not impossible for 1 window, or Jan and summer.

    I think we should try to be clever with our signings, attack early, plan ahead, think of different grades.

    Decent options i think we should consider....

    RW: 1. Sancho, 2. Neres, 3. Chiesa, 4. Zaha

    CM: 1. Eriksen, 2. Pellegrini, 3. Ndidi, 4. Havertz, 5. Neves

    ST: 1. Werner, 2. Dembele, 3. Wilson

    LB: 1. Telles, 2. Chilwell, 3. Digne

    My personal preference... Sancho, Eriksen, Ndidi, Werner, Telles. I perfer we play in a 433.

    I think our transfer policy is nuts though, so likely we'll get another LW and Chilwell.
  26. Sep 6, 2019
    #66

    Ikon Correctly predicted France to win World Cup 2018

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    I'm in agreement.

    I feel that there is a definite plan this time around, and I'd like to believe that the club & fans will give it the time and patience to come to fruition.
    My biggest misgiving at the moment, is that we had a golden opportunity presented to us this Summer to have signed 5 new first teamers, with Liverpool, City & Chelsea not competing in the transfer market, and yet we dillied & dallied, and failed to sign either a MF or RW, and this will haunt us all season.
  27. Sep 6, 2019
    #67

    Andycoleno9 Full Member

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    Good manager would be a good start
  28. Sep 6, 2019
    #68

    Amerifan Full Member

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    Such an odd transfer window. As if the Top 6 bid up the same players and then decided they were too expensive. Then once the window closed everyone went, “Wait, that guy’s still available? We would have bought him.” The lesson is to cast a wider net next window.
  29. Sep 8, 2019
    #69

    Lmarco Full Member

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    I'm not sure if my biggest worry is about rebuilding the squad or the club itself. Anyway, concerning the squad i'm really worried about the lack of quality and experience that could further arise with the contracts coming to an end next June (De Gea, Matic, Bailly, Fosu Mensah, Young, Gomes) and the only world class player that will be hard to keep (Pogba). Other disappointing players will need to find a club to get rid of more deadwood (at least Rojo and Fred).

    The midfield will need strong additions both in quality and numbers with, presumably, just McTominay, Peirera and Mata left if Pogba-Fred are offloaded on top of the free players. At least three midfields needed.

    Defensively, this would help to lower the numbers but it might be short on potential quality subs (remaining defenders : Shaw, Lindelof, Maguire, Jones, Tuanzebe, AWB, Dalot).

    Regarding attacking players, not sure what this team can achieve and win with just Martial, Rashford, Greenwood, Lingard and James.
  30. Sep 8, 2019
    #70

    wolvored Full Member

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    The question is stupid. No one is happy to accept it, but theres nothing we can do, but hope they get it right. Hopefully one or two of the kids can come through each season and help to get the club back to something like and stay there. They seem to be spending quite a lot of money on the youth setup and buying a lot of talent from around the world. We have to accept no team will do what liverpool and utd did, be dominant for 20 years. The 'little' teams have the ability to spend £100 million a season at least now and dont need to sell their players on the cheap. Even Fergie wouldnt have the same success nowadays than he did in the past. I think the reality is now to finish top 4 regularly is an achievement and a big hope we can get back to the level of City and Liverpool in the next 3-5 years.
  31. Sep 8, 2019
    #71

    wolvored Full Member

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    Woody said there is the Lukaku money for January. We may bring in a non CH Lge player for CM, but then again Ole might say he doesnt need anyone (no value...)
  32. Sep 9, 2019
    #72

    Ikon Correctly predicted France to win World Cup 2018

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    The money might be available in January, but will the player be available in January?
    Considering how slow our board are to get a deal concluded, are we really going to be able to sign, for example, Maddison or Rice, in the space of a month, when clubs don't have to sell, and don't want to sell...?
  33. Sep 9, 2019
    #73

    Treble Full Member

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    The task is monumental indeed as the competition on the market for both managers and players is huge.
  34. Sep 9, 2019
    #74

    Denis79 Full Member

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    Hilarious read. As much as it's meant as comedy, it did play out exactly like it was written.

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.joe.co.uk/amp/sport/manchester-united-ed-woodward-mourinho-195660
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2019
  35. Sep 9, 2019
    #75

    ants7 Full Member

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    If we consider the rebuild only by new players and manager - we will be counting on luck again.

    The first change or "rebuild" I'd like to see is Ed backing down from the "DoF" role and getting football-minded people in charge. It's clear that currently Manchester United is a ship drifting without a captain and without a clear destination.
  36. Sep 9, 2019
    #76

    romufc Full Member

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  37. Sep 9, 2019
    #77

    amolbhatia50k Sneaky bum time

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    For as long as we are mismanaged we will seem further from the destination than we actually are. When we find the right manager/set up (hopefully we have but Im doubtful), what we have will seem better and building on a cohesion collective rather than a dysfunctional one is much easier task.

    So I don't subscribe to this being this monumental task. But of course you need to have the right people at the helm. Sign the right 3 players every summer, coach the team excellently and you're on their way.
  38. Sep 9, 2019
    #78

    Maticmaker Full Member

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    The way the club sees its self and hence how is run, is now the crucial issue.

    Our two most successful managers each had a big idea that created a desire burning inside them and hence throughout the club.

    For Sir Matt it was determination to enter (despite strong opposition from the English League) and then to conquer European Competition, this of course became especially poignant after Munich. Sir Matt's desire for United to become the first English club to win the European Cup, was almost like the search for the Holy Grail and it drove him (almost literally) to come back from the dead and take forward his Busby Babes towards his goal.

    For Sir Alex it was "knocking Liverpool off their perch" by dominating the first twenty years of the new Premier League. To do that SAF had to build not one successful side, but up to five new sides to continue this 'impossible dream' at almost each stage he brought in a new No.2 to help to 'freshen up his ideas.

    We desperately need someone in the club to think in these terms, maybe its no longer the coach, maybe this is why we desperately need a Director of Football?
  39. Sep 9, 2019
    #79

    amolbhatia50k Sneaky bum time

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    More like these things are cyclical. Now it's City and Liverpool's time. Eventually we'll hit the right note, and challenge for the top honours again. No guarantees in life but I think it'll happen for sure. Just a question of how quickly we stumble on the right answers.
  40. Sep 9, 2019
    #80

    sammsky1 Pochettino's #1 fan

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    It's called having 'purpose'. The 'purpose' of SMB and SAF while at the club were specifically related to 'winning in football'.

    Our issue right now is our organisational purpose doesn't specifically involve 'winning in football', rather it is about 'making the most amount of money through football'.

    Until that changes, no manager, mythical DoF or anyone else will be able to make any more difference than Mourinho was able to achieve.
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2019