The most promising side post SAF | And also some stats

[Gasolin]

This is where your finely constructed argument falls to bits. He played exhausted players in an FA cup match and now they're going into the match that decides the season dead on their feet. There's no getting away from how incompetent and stupid that was. If we miss top four, that's why.

It's a gamble that doesn't happen with a more talented squad depth. And it was Arsenal in the final, wouldn't you try to get there?!?

 

[Maagge]

Specifically regarding the rotation: Personally I'm not advocating for starting all of the mentioned players at a time, but just one or two of them each game to allow rest to our important players like Bruno and Martial. You can always sub them on later if you need them. That's catching up with us now, even though we might still get through by hook and by crook.
We've also won games against e.g. City with Fred and James starting, so surely we can win against West Ham as well.

 

[ThinkTank@Cafe]

Is it though? You can prove anything with stats. Minutes played is not that relevant unless it's understood alongside training techniques and style of play. David de Gea has played more minutes but is less tired than Marcus Rashford for example. For obvious reasons. He stands still for 88 minutes.

The tiredness is something you can see with your eyes. Not with a spreadsheet.

I didn’t say one can’t or shouldn’t argue with the OP. Poster put a lot of effort to support his opinion with quality data in a a convenient format. The way he interpreted that data and his conclusion is open for discussion. I mostly agree with the OP conclusions.

 

[glazed]

It's a gamble that doesn't happen with a more talented squad depth. And it was Arsenal in the final, wouldn't you try to get there?!?

I would 100% have played the B team. And not in hindsight either. If you know you don't have the squad, you don't just bumble along and hope for the best.

 

[Valencia Shin Crosses]

100% agree. It seems people can’t look at the bigger picture with us at times. We have had to have unreal form since January just to put ourselves in this position, are playing games at a ridiculous pace not seen in the PL before, with a squad that features a damn good XI but extremely thin depth, but our players and manager are bottlers? Not to mention we’ve been the most consistent team since the restart, and have done as well as one could have asked.

And people can say before the Chelsea game that we need to rest everyone, but then Ole goes with a mixed lineup and we turn into an embarrassing club because of a bad performance made worse by bad goalkeeping? If anyone needs a mentality check, it’s all of us supporters of the club, because we can’t seem to make up our minds about anything other than to be pissed off and expect the worst when the players have shown a great deal to even be in the position they are in now.

 

[glazed]

100% agree. It seems people can’t look at the bigger picture with us at times. We have had to have unreal form since January just to put ourselves in this position, are playing games at a ridiculous pace not seen in the PL before, with a squad that features a damn good XI but extremely thin depth, but our players and manager are bottlers? Not to mention we’ve been the most consistent team since the restart, and have done as well as one could have asked.

I've never once blamed the players. The problem is Sunday - the whole first XI should have been rested. It's just plain bad management and no amount of straw man arguments can hide that.

 

[GailSpaceWynand]

Great analysis.

 

[pacifictheme]

To me this backs up the Fred and mctominay thread I made as well. They don't really fit the way we want to play.

Also yeah, the players are fecked. That starting 11 is solid, but the squad depth is absolutely awful. I don't see one player we can bring in that doesn't noticeably weaken us, which shouldn't be the case for a top side.

 

[ThinkTank@Cafe]

I've never once blamed the players. The problem is Sunday - the whole first XI should have been rested. It's just plain bad management and no amount of straw man arguments can hide that.

Pretty categorical statement which can and will be viewed by many fans at least as under appreciation of what Ole achieved. Most fans support him not because we are stupid morons blinded by Ole’s legend status. We see the progress. It’s visible on the pitch and when you look at the table. Ole can‘t improve everything in one season.

We have a serious problem: NO BENCH. We have only Fred, MCT, and Romero who can be trusted. The rest is garbage.

First time since SAF we have a formidable first 11 - isn’t it a valid argument?. Even if we get the 5th, despite all the shitstorm on the Cafe, many fans including me will support Ole. And, again, that is not because we are all in the “top red” contest or we are all fools.

 

[Baneofthegame]

The only thing I disagree with is that we certainly won some big games with Fred/McT in the center and certainly with them when Bruno arrived. There is no reason we couldn’t have played with them and one of Pogba/Bruno vs Southampton/Palace/West Ham or even had Ighalo up front one game to spare Rashford/Martial some minutes.

But on the whole I agree and think we will beat Leicester Sunday anyway as they will have to come on tous which suits our team.

 

[glazed]

Pretty categorical statement which can and will be viewed by many fans at least as under appreciation of what Ole achieved. Most fans support him not because we are stupid morons blinded by Ole’s legend status. We see the progress. It’s visible on the pitch and when you look at the table. Ole can‘t improve everything in one season.

We have a serious problem: NO BENCH.

All true. Every word. Which is why fielding that team on Sunday was so crazy. Ole basically risked CL qualification for the chance of a bit of Wembley tin can that no-one even cares about.

 

[Toad]

great thread. Someone needed to put this in perspective for slot of fans. Ultimately it comes down to squad depth.

 

[Gator Nate]

Is it though? You can prove anything with stats. Minutes played is not that relevant unless it's understood alongside training techniques and style of play. David de Gea has played more minutes but is less tired than Marcus Rashford for example. For obvious reasons. He stands still for 88 minutes.

The tiredness is something you can see with your eyes. Not with a spreadsheet.

And that's about 3 seconds longer than he should...

 

[RedSky]

I was going to make a thread about this but it fits nicely in here. Please note, the stats are taken directly from Transfermarkt.com

The below represents our squads stats from matchday 1 to 24 (the Burnley loss).

​

Player​	Games Missed with Injury​	Total Mins​	Percent Played​	Goals​	Assists​
Harry Maguire​	0​	2160​	100%​	0​	1​
Victor Lindelöf​	0​	1980​	92%​	1​	0​
Marcus Rashford​	2​	1882​	87%​	14​	5​
Aaron Wan-Bissaka​	0​	1881​	87%​	0​	1​
Daniel James​	0​	1827​	85%​	3​	6​
Fred​	0​	1588​	74%​	0​	0​
Anthony Martial​	6​	1458​	68%​	8​	3​
Scott McTominay​	5​	1454​	67%​	3​	1​
Andreas Pereira​	0​	1371​	63%​	1​	3​
Ashley Young​	0​	953​	44%​	0​	0​
Jesse Lingard​	0​	889​	41%​	0​	0​
Luke Shaw​	10​	786​	36%​	0​	0​
Juan Mata​	0​	627​	29%​	0​	2​
Nemanja Matic​	9​	601​	28%​	0​	0​
Brandon Williams​	0​	592​	27%​	1​	1​
Paul Pogba​	17​	521​	24%​	0​	2​
Mason Greenwood​	1​	477​	22%​	4​	0​
Axel Tuanzebe​	11​	187​	9%​	0​	0​
Phil Jones​	0​	135​	6%​	0​	0​
Marcos Rojo​	0​	121​	6%​	0​	0​
Diogo Dalot​	18​	63​	3%​	0​	0​
Tahith Chong​	0​	24​	1%​	0​	0​
Angel Gomes​	0​	19​	1%​	0​	0​

Below represents our squads stats from matchday 25 to present.

Player​	Games Missed with Injury	Total Mins​	Percent Played​	Goals​	Assists​
Harry Maguire​	0	1170​	100%​	1​	0​
Bruno Fernandes​	0	1107​	95%​	7​	7​
Aaron Wan-Bissaka​	0	1101​	94%​	0​	3​
Anthony Martial​	0	1092​	93%​	9​	3​
Victor Lindelöf​	0	1023​	87%​	0​	0​
Luke Shaw​	2	949​	81%​	0​	0​
Nemanja Matic​	0	892​	76%​	0​	2​
Mason Greenwood​	0	759​	65%​	6​	1​
Marcus Rashford​	3	683​	58%​	3​	3​
Paul Pogba​	5	594​	51%​	1​	2​
Fred​	0	571​	49%​	0​	0​
Daniel James​	0	464​	40%​	0​	0​
Brandon Williams​	0	324​	28%​	0​	0​
Scott McTominay​	2	313​	27%​	1​	0​
Eric Bailly​	0	148​	13%​	0​	0​
Timothy Fosu-Mensah​	3	135​	12%​	0​	0​
Juan Mata​	0	125​	11%​	0​	0​
Andreas Pereira​	0	118​	10%​	0​	0​
Odion Ighalo​	0	91​	8%​	0​	0​
Jesse Lingard​	0	30​	3%​	0​	0​
Tahith Chong​	0	10​	1%​	0​	0​

A few things burst out comparing the two. For a start, Martial has stepped up a gear, he's surpassed his goal record in the first 24 games. Rashford has barely got involved in the goal scoring, that's a source of goals that we can expect to add next season. Bruno with 7 assists has surpassed the highest total of assists we managed in the first 24 games (James on 6). No real surprise here, but as a team we are far more creative with him in our starting eleven. Pereira and Lingard have been cast aside, they've run out of chances it seems and will most likely be moved on in the Summer having completely failed this season. James, Fred and McTom have been demoted to squad players while Mata is barely featuring anymore. Really could do with Pogba contributing a bit more with some more goals.

If you add Lingard, Pereira and Matas stats together you end up with... 1 goal, 5 assists in 3,159 minutes. That's been part of the problem this season.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

I don't think enough people realize the magnitude of effort - both physical and mental - that has been asked of some key players since the break, and how well these players have delivered in return. I'd like to show a few numbers to debunk a few arguments that are being thrown about to criticize the players and the manager right now. I think we've been absolutely brilliant since the restart - arguably the best form we've shown post SAF. Given the profile and talent of some of the players we have, I firmly believe this is the most promising side we've seen since SAF - even better than the side that won the Europa League and came 2nd under Mourinho.

On fixture congestion, aka the 'games come thick and fast every season' argument:

In 2018/19, GW 30-39 spanned from 10th March through 12th May in which we played 12 games. That's 5.3 days per game.
In 2019/20, we restarted at GW 30 again on 20th June ending on GW 38 on 27th July in which we would have played 11 games. Thats 3.1 days per game.

We had 70% more time between games last season as compared to this one.


On squad fitness, aka the ' our players get knackered too easily' argument:

Minutes played by Man United players since restart:

	Maguire	Bruno	Rashford	Lindelof	AWB	Martial	Greenwood	Pogba	Matic	Shaw	Williams	McTominay	Fred	Ighalo	James	Rest
Spurs	90	90	90	78	90	78	28	27	12	90	0	89	63	12	62	Dalot
Sheffield Utd	90	74	74	90	90	74	74	74	90	90	0	10	0	16	10	TFM
Norwich	120	120	57	0	0	24	57	42	42	120	57	78	78	120	0	Mata
Brighton	90	64	78	90	90	78	90	64	90	64	26	26	0	12	12	Lingard
Bournemouth	90	90	80	46	90	80	75	90	67	90	0	0	23	10	15	Bailly
Villa	90	71	90	90	66	79	79	90	66	90	24	24	19	11	11
Southampton	90	84	90	90	90	90	84	63	90	75	15	10	27	0	10
Palace	90	90	90	90	90	90	62	90	27	0	0	63	0	0	0
Chelsea	90	90	79	90	79	45	35	35	90	0	90	0	55	11	56
West Ham	90	90	85	90	45	90	90	90	90	0	90	0	0	5	0
Total Minutes	930	863	813	754	730	728	674	665	664	619	302	300	265	197	176
% of Total Possible	100	92.79569892	87.41935484	81.07526882	78.49462366	78.27956989	72.47311828	71.50537634	71.39784946	66.55913978	32.47311828	32.25806452	28.49462366	21.1827957	18.92473118

For comparison, look at minutes by Chelsea players since restart:

	Azpi	Willian	Rudiger	Pulisic	Zouma	Mount	Alonso	Giroud	James	Christensen	Barkley	Kante	Kovacic	Jorginho	Tammy	Rest
Villa	90	90	90	35	0	90	90	80	5	90	35	90	55	0	10	Pedro
City	90	90	90	90	0	90	90	62	0	90	73	90	17	0	28	CHO
Leicester	44	78	90	72	90	46	0	0	46	0	44	90	44	0	90	Gilmour
West Ham	90	90	90	90	0	37	90	27	0	90	63	90	53	0	63	Emerson
Watford	90	76	0	90	90	76	0	76	90	90	90	78	0	0	14	RLC
Palace	90	90	0	90	90	90	0	65	90	90	65	0	0	10	25
Sheffield Utd	90	90	45	66	90	45	45	34	75	45	78	0	0	90	90
Norwich	90	90	90	80	90	0	80	85	10	0	23	0	90	90	5
Manchester Utd	90	80	90	0	90	90	90	80	90	0	0	0	85	90	10
Liverpool	90	59	90	31	90	59	88	59	90	0	0	0	90	90	31
Total Minutes	854	833	675	644	630	623	573	568	496	495	471	438	434	370	366
% of Total Possible	94.88888889	92.55555556	75	71.55555556	70	69.22222222	63.66666667	63.11111111	55.11111111	55	52.33333333	48.66666667	48.22222222	41.11111111	40.66666667

Look at the number of minutes most of our players have had - in a row - during this run. We've hardly got the same quality of depth as Chelsea, and that means the likes of Rashford, Bruno and 18-year-old Greenwood are taking on far more responsibility that they should. Clubs with similarly bare squad depth are losing players left, right and centre - look at Bournemouth, Sheffield, Villa or even Leicester - our players have insane fitness as compared to these clubs, Ole has definitely improved our fitness else we would have lost more than just Shaw to injury.

On squad rotation, aka the 'Ole is an idiot for not rotating against the smaller clubs' argument:

Let's look at results when the squad players (players not part of our current stongest XI) started agains the same 'smaller' clubs in the reverse fixtures earlier this season:

Sheffield United (A) : James, Fred, Williams, Pereira, Phil Jones start : 3-3 Draw
Bournemouth (A): James, Fred, McTominay, Pereira start : 1-0 loss
Villa (H): James, Pereira, Fred, Mata, Williams start: 2-2 Draw
Southampton (A): Mata, Pereira, James, McTominay start: 1-1 Draw
Palace (H) : Lingard, James, McTominay start: 1-2 Loss
West Ham (A): Mata, James, Pereira, McTominary start: 2-0 loss.

3/18 points before restart and 14/18 points now. Do you blame Ole for sticking with a team that works and the starting XI's chemistry with each other over squad players who have massively let him down in the past? Looking at how well we've done now, isn't his decision vindicated? In fact the reason we're close to CL spots is because Ole made that call, I'd say. Our squad players are terrible compared to the other top 6 clubs. James, Ighalo and Williams are just not good enough to trust so many crucial minutes with. Even yesterday, if Bowen wasn't tearing Williams a new one and we had Shaw there instead, I'd be more confident of us getting all 3 points. Sure, Ole took a gamble by playing many key players in the FA cup, but who wouldn't if you saw the current Arsenal side in the final?

On form, aka the 'we are still not good enough' argument:

And here's our form table over the last 10 PL games.

1	Man Utd	10	6	4	0	23	7	16	22	DWDWWWWDWD
2	Man City	10	7	0	3	29	6	23	21	LWWLWLWWWW
3	Wolverhampton	10	6	2	2	13	6	7	20	WdWWWLLWDW
4	Chelsea	10	6	1	3	22	17	5	19	DWWWLWWLWL
5	Tottenham	10	5	3	2	16	10	6	18	LDDWLWdWWW
6	Liverpool	10	5	2	3	18	15	3	17	LWdWLWWDLW
7	Burnley	10	4	5	1	9	9	0	17	dDLWWDWDDW
8	Arsenal	10	5	1	4	14	10	4	16	WLLWWWDLWL
9	Southampton	10	4	3	3	14	11	3	15	LLWLWWDDDW
10	West Ham	10	4	2	4	16	13	3	14	WLLLWDLWWD

Every single team drops points, but no one has dropped them less often than us since Bruno joined. In Gameweek 25, when Bruno made his PL debut against Wolves, we were in 7th - 6 points (-2GD) off Chelsea in 4th and 14 points (-21GD) off Leicester in 3rd. Our turnaround since them has been nothing short of remarkable.

On mentality, aka the 'players are too mentally weak' argument:
I agree. We've made ground, but we took our sweet time doing it, and we may still brick it in the Cup Final against Leicester. We look more nervous whenever we are favourites or have to capitalize on dropped points, and look like a different team than the one that works brilliantly as underdogs. But how is that a criticism, isn't that completely expected?

In our starting XI only De Gea and Matic know what it takes to win the Premier League. Greenwood is 18, Rashford for all his time here is still 22 (just like AWB), Martial was a side-character under Mourinho he's stil 24. In Shaw's absence, Williams is 19 and put through immense mental and physical pressure. Ole himself has not won anything as manager, and he's learning on the job. I'm not saying young players can't be winners, I'm saying they take a little time to mature into winners and leaders - and they're doing it far quicker under Ole than anyone else we've had. For instance, in the big games this season. Against Liverpool, City, Cheslea, Arsenal, Spurs and Leicester this season, we have 21/33 points with 6 wins, 3 draws and 2 losses and GF/GA of 16/7. Not bad for a manager and a team still finding their feet, I'd say.

The current Liverpool team also lost a lot of key games before they won the CL/PL. When you have a young team, it takes time.

---

Irrespective of the result on Sunday (I think we'll get a nervy draw and make it to CL), this is most promising side I've seen since SAF and we should believe in Ole and this team. Hopefully it'll have some very good additions in the coming couple of months as well. I hope these numbers answer some of the daft criticisms being levelled against the team.

Truly brilliant post. Completely agree with it

 

[tomaldinho1]

Great effort and interesting to see the minutes comparison, we really did get screwed over with the scheduling vs Chelsea and now having less rest than Leicester.

I will say that, as with any stats where you specify a certain timeframe for form, it's never an accurate representation of a season, which is what really matters. I'm not knocking the results we have had post lockdown but we have played WHU, Palace, Soton, Villa, Bournemouth, Brighton, Sheffield United, Spurs. Of those games you'd expect us to drop a point here and there because that's normal but we were favourites for every single game. I think every fan whether they are Ole in or out wants to see us make the CL and will be rooting for Ole and the team come Sunday.

 

[Gandalf Greyhame]

I was going to make a thread about this but it fits nicely in here. Please note, the stats are taken directly from Transfermarkt.com

The below represents our squads stats from matchday 1 to 24 (the Burnley loss).

​

Player​	Games Missed with Injury​	Total Mins​	Percent Played​	Goals​	Assists​
Harry Maguire​	0​	2160​	100%​	0​	1​
Victor Lindelöf​	0​	1980​	92%​	1​	0​
Marcus Rashford​	2​	1882​	87%​	14​	5​
Aaron Wan-Bissaka​	0​	1881​	87%​	0​	1​
Daniel James​	0​	1827​	85%​	3​	6​
Fred​	0​	1588​	74%​	0​	0​
Anthony Martial​	6​	1458​	68%​	8​	3​
Scott McTominay​	5​	1454​	67%​	3​	1​
Andreas Pereira​	0​	1371​	63%​	1​	3​
Ashley Young​	0​	953​	44%​	0​	0​
Jesse Lingard​	0​	889​	41%​	0​	0​
Luke Shaw​	10​	786​	36%​	0​	0​
Juan Mata​	0​	627​	29%​	0​	2​
Nemanja Matic​	9​	601​	28%​	0​	0​
Brandon Williams​	0​	592​	27%​	1​	1​
Paul Pogba​	17​	521​	24%​	0​	2​
Mason Greenwood​	1​	477​	22%​	4​	0​
Axel Tuanzebe​	11​	187​	9%​	0​	0​
Phil Jones​	0​	135​	6%​	0​	0​
Marcos Rojo​	0​	121​	6%​	0​	0​
Diogo Dalot​	18​	63​	3%​	0​	0​
Tahith Chong​	0​	24​	1%​	0​	0​
Angel Gomes​	0​	19​	1%​	0​	0​

Below represents our squads stats from matchday 25 to present.

​

Player​	Games Missed with Injury	Total Mins​	Percent Played​	Goals​	Assists​
Harry Maguire​	0	1170​	100%​	1​	0​
Bruno Fernandes​	0	1107​	95%​	7​	7​
Aaron Wan-Bissaka​	0	1101​	94%​	0​	3​
Anthony Martial​	0	1092​	93%​	9​	3​
Victor Lindelöf​	0	1023​	87%​	0​	0​
Luke Shaw​	2	949​	81%​	0​	0​
Nemanja Matic​	0	892​	76%​	0​	2​
Mason Greenwood​	0	759​	65%​	6​	1​
Marcus Rashford​	3	683​	58%​	3​	3​
Paul Pogba​	5	594​	51%​	1​	2​
Fred​	0	571​	49%​	0​	0​
Daniel James​	0	464​	40%​	0​	0​
Brandon Williams​	0	324​	28%​	0​	0​
Scott McTominay​	2	313​	27%​	1​	0​
Eric Bailly​	0	148​	13%​	0​	0​
Timothy Fosu-Mensah​	3	135​	12%​	0​	0​
Juan Mata​	0	125​	11%​	0​	0​
Andreas Pereira​	0	118​	10%​	0​	0​
Odion Ighalo​	0	91​	8%​	0​	0​
Jesse Lingard​	0	30​	3%​	0​	0​
Tahith Chong​	0	10​	1%​	0​	0​

A few things burst out comparing the two. For a start, Martial has stepped up a gear, he's surpassed his goal record in the first 24 games. Rashford has barely got involved in the goal scoring, that's a source of goals that we can expect to add next season. Bruno with 7 assists has surpassed the highest total of assists we managed in the first 24 games (James on 6). No real surprise here, but as a team we are far more creative with him in our starting eleven. Pereira and Lingard have been cast aside, they've run out of chances it seems and will most likely be moved on in the Summer having completely failed this season. James, Fred and McTom have been demoted to squad players while Mata is barely featuring anymore. Really could do with Pogba contributing a bit more with some more goals.

If you add Lingard, Pereira and Matas stats together you end up with... 1 goal, 5 assists in 3,159 minutes. That's been part of the problem this season.

Wait, Maguire has not missed a single minute the whole season? Wow.

 

[Striker10]

Yes. We've seen a hit on our energy recently but I think we're short in a few areas. Sancho would be a great buy and might help the fact our wing backs don't create enough. We need the back line to wake up. People can look at our points total it's easy to see where we can improve next season with the same squad. Drawing to west ham at home isn't the problem. The problem was created in the first half of the season. But hopefully the players can find that hunger. There is still a lot to play for so there's no excuse. We might get more space away to Leicester so hopefully we can exploit them on the break.

 

[Zen86]

This is simply the latest in a long line of petty criticisms the mard arses on here are clinging to. We’ve a very good first 11, and we’ve no depth beyond that. As we’ve seen time and time again, the side capitulate when we take off our first team and there’s no one on that bench who you could bring on to change a game. The players are tired because of this.

And Ole decided to gamble and give a shit about the FA Cup. It backfired, get over it. If it wasn’t for DDG dishing out one of his special performances we might have even pulled it off.

 

[ivaldo]

Superb post @Gandalf Greyhame.

You shouldn't need to quantify what anyone with a pair of eyes can see, but you have and you've done a great job of it.

 

[RedSky]

Wait, Maguire has not missed a single minute the whole season? Wow.

Nope, part of the reason why i'm happy with Maguire/Lindelof is at least they're consistently fit, which is a far cry from the sick notes of yester years.

 

[12OunceEpilogue]

I don't think enough people realize the magnitude of effort - both physical and mental - that has been asked of some key players since the break, and how well these players have delivered in return. I'd like to show a few numbers to debunk a few arguments that are being thrown about to criticize the players and the manager right now. I think we've been absolutely brilliant since the restart - arguably the best form we've shown post SAF. Given the profile and talent of some of the players we have, I firmly believe this is the most promising side we've seen since SAF - even better than the side that won the Europa League and came 2nd under Mourinho.

On fixture congestion, aka the 'games come thick and fast every season' argument:

In 2018/19, GW 30-39 spanned from 10th March through 12th May in which we played 12 games. That's 5.3 days per game.
In 2019/20, we restarted at GW 30 again on 20th June ending on GW 38 on 27th July in which we would have played 11 games. Thats 3.1 days per game.

We had 70% more time between games last season as compared to this one.


On squad fitness, aka the ' our players get knackered too easily' argument:

Minutes played by Man United players since restart:

	Maguire	Bruno	Rashford	Lindelof	AWB	Martial	Greenwood	Pogba	Matic	Shaw	Williams	McTominay	Fred	Ighalo	James	Rest
Spurs	90	90	90	78	90	78	28	27	12	90	0	89	63	12	62	Dalot
Sheffield Utd	90	74	74	90	90	74	74	74	90	90	0	10	0	16	10	TFM
Norwich	120	120	57	0	0	24	57	42	42	120	57	78	78	120	0	Mata
Brighton	90	64	78	90	90	78	90	64	90	64	26	26	0	12	12	Lingard
Bournemouth	90	90	80	46	90	80	75	90	67	90	0	0	23	10	15	Bailly
Villa	90	71	90	90	66	79	79	90	66	90	24	24	19	11	11
Southampton	90	84	90	90	90	90	84	63	90	75	15	10	27	0	10
Palace	90	90	90	90	90	90	62	90	27	0	0	63	0	0	0
Chelsea	90	90	79	90	79	45	35	35	90	0	90	0	55	11	56
West Ham	90	90	85	90	45	90	90	90	90	0	90	0	0	5	0
Total Minutes	930	863	813	754	730	728	674	665	664	619	302	300	265	197	176
% of Total Possible	100	92.79569892	87.41935484	81.07526882	78.49462366	78.27956989	72.47311828	71.50537634	71.39784946	66.55913978	32.47311828	32.25806452	28.49462366	21.1827957	18.92473118

For comparison, look at minutes by Chelsea players since restart:

	Azpi	Willian	Rudiger	Pulisic	Zouma	Mount	Alonso	Giroud	James	Christensen	Barkley	Kante	Kovacic	Jorginho	Tammy	Rest
Villa	90	90	90	35	0	90	90	80	5	90	35	90	55	0	10	Pedro
City	90	90	90	90	0	90	90	62	0	90	73	90	17	0	28	CHO
Leicester	44	78	90	72	90	46	0	0	46	0	44	90	44	0	90	Gilmour
West Ham	90	90	90	90	0	37	90	27	0	90	63	90	53	0	63	Emerson
Watford	90	76	0	90	90	76	0	76	90	90	90	78	0	0	14	RLC
Palace	90	90	0	90	90	90	0	65	90	90	65	0	0	10	25
Sheffield Utd	90	90	45	66	90	45	45	34	75	45	78	0	0	90	90
Norwich	90	90	90	80	90	0	80	85	10	0	23	0	90	90	5
Manchester Utd	90	80	90	0	90	90	90	80	90	0	0	0	85	90	10
Liverpool	90	59	90	31	90	59	88	59	90	0	0	0	90	90	31
Total Minutes	854	833	675	644	630	623	573	568	496	495	471	438	434	370	366
% of Total Possible	94.88888889	92.55555556	75	71.55555556	70	69.22222222	63.66666667	63.11111111	55.11111111	55	52.33333333	48.66666667	48.22222222	41.11111111	40.66666667

Look at the number of minutes most of our players have had - in a row - during this run. We've hardly got the same quality of depth as Chelsea, and that means the likes of Rashford, Bruno and 18-year-old Greenwood are taking on far more responsibility that they should. Clubs with similarly bare squad depth are losing players left, right and centre - look at Bournemouth, Sheffield, Villa or even Leicester - our players have insane fitness as compared to these clubs, Ole has definitely improved our fitness else we would have lost more than just Shaw to injury.

On squad rotation, aka the 'Ole is an idiot for not rotating against the smaller clubs' argument:

Let's look at results when the squad players (players not part of our current stongest XI) started agains the same 'smaller' clubs in the reverse fixtures earlier this season:

Sheffield United (A) : James, Fred, Williams, Pereira, Phil Jones start : 3-3 Draw
Bournemouth (A): James, Fred, McTominay, Pereira start : 1-0 loss
Villa (H): James, Pereira, Fred, Mata, Williams start: 2-2 Draw
Southampton (A): Mata, Pereira, James, McTominay start: 1-1 Draw
Palace (H) : Lingard, James, McTominay start: 1-2 Loss
West Ham (A): Mata, James, Pereira, McTominary start: 2-0 loss.

3/18 points before restart and 14/18 points now. Do you blame Ole for sticking with a team that works and the starting XI's chemistry with each other over squad players who have massively let him down in the past? Looking at how well we've done now, isn't his decision vindicated? In fact the reason we're close to CL spots is because Ole made that call, I'd say. Our squad players are terrible compared to the other top 6 clubs. James, Ighalo and Williams are just not good enough to trust so many crucial minutes with. Even yesterday, if Bowen wasn't tearing Williams a new one and we had Shaw there instead, I'd be more confident of us getting all 3 points. Sure, Ole took a gamble by playing many key players in the FA cup, but who wouldn't if you saw the current Arsenal side in the final?

On form, aka the 'we are still not good enough' argument:

And here's our form table over the last 10 PL games.

1	Man Utd	10	6	4	0	23	7	16	22	DWDWWWWDWD
2	Man City	10	7	0	3	29	6	23	21	LWWLWLWWWW
3	Wolverhampton	10	6	2	2	13	6	7	20	WdWWWLLWDW
4	Chelsea	10	6	1	3	22	17	5	19	DWWWLWWLWL
5	Tottenham	10	5	3	2	16	10	6	18	LDDWLWdWWW
6	Liverpool	10	5	2	3	18	15	3	17	LWdWLWWDLW
7	Burnley	10	4	5	1	9	9	0	17	dDLWWDWDDW
8	Arsenal	10	5	1	4	14	10	4	16	WLLWWWDLWL
9	Southampton	10	4	3	3	14	11	3	15	LLWLWWDDDW
10	West Ham	10	4	2	4	16	13	3	14	WLLLWDLWWD

Every single team drops points, but no one has dropped them less often than us since Bruno joined. In Gameweek 25, when Bruno made his PL debut against Wolves, we were in 7th - 6 points (-2GD) off Chelsea in 4th and 14 points (-21GD) off Leicester in 3rd. Our turnaround since them has been nothing short of remarkable.

On mentality, aka the 'players are too mentally weak' argument:
I agree. We've made ground, but we took our sweet time doing it, and we may still brick it in the Cup Final against Leicester. We look more nervous whenever we are favourites or have to capitalize on dropped points, and look like a different team than the one that works brilliantly as underdogs. But how is that a criticism, isn't that completely expected?

In our starting XI only De Gea and Matic know what it takes to win the Premier League. Greenwood is 18, Rashford for all his time here is still 22 (just like AWB), Martial was a side-character under Mourinho he's stil 24. In Shaw's absence, Williams is 19 and put through immense mental and physical pressure. Ole himself has not won anything as manager, and he's learning on the job. I'm not saying young players can't be winners, I'm saying they take a little time to mature into winners and leaders - and they're doing it far quicker under Ole than anyone else we've had. For instance, in the big games this season. Against Liverpool, City, Cheslea, Arsenal, Spurs and Leicester this season, we have 21/33 points with 6 wins, 3 draws and 2 losses and GF/GA of 16/7. Not bad for a manager and a team still finding their feet, I'd say.

The current Liverpool team also lost a lot of key games before they won the CL/PL. When you have a young team, it takes time.

---

Irrespective of the result on Sunday (I think we'll get a nervy draw and make it to CL), this is most promising side I've seen since SAF and we should believe in Ole and this team. Hopefully it'll have some very good additions in the coming couple of months as well. I hope these numbers answer some of the daft criticisms being levelled against the team.

Good stuff. We are a very young side with a young manager, with that comes bumps in the road and some very painful falling at final fences, and the squad has gone from gravely incomplete to now having a good starting eleven who must start every match. You've shown the massive amount of minutes our top players have had to play since lockdown, and it's hard to argue that Ole had a choice to rotate squad players in when you look at how poor a return we've got from those players this year. Broadly speaking I'm happy with the job Ole has done and want to see him continue, and if we sneak into the top three or four he's got as good a finish as he could have got this season.

However I still think the squad could have been managed better in a few recent games, and I'm now going to have a little moan about it:

- Against Sheffield United we make five subs on 80th minute having controlled the game entirely and been two up at half time
-Against Bournemouth the game's over after an hour yet Ole waits until 75/80 to withdraw the front three
-Villa again are beaten by the hour but he leaves Bruno, Martial and Rashford on for 10/15 minutes more
-Palace is a hard-fought game that could have been thrown away with too many changes, but two subs made at 1-0 then none made in the fifteen minutes after we kill the game at 2-0

You could laugh that lot off as nitpicking but if we're talking about players run into the ground surely stealing an extra ten or 15 minutes back for them is worth it? I also accept if he takes players off only for us to throw away two or three points he'll be caned for it, but for me he's not made the best use of the five sub rule. Furthermore, and this may be an unpopular opinion, but if he could see just how ropey the players were looking he should have prioritised the league over the FA Cup and played many more squad players in the two cup games. Hindsight's obviously 20-20 but not only was the Chelsea game a debacle anyway but only Pogba, Martial and Greenwood got a half's rest apiece.

That aspect aside, and again I do appreciate there's a fair amount of revision and nitpicking in that, I'm satisfied Ole's got us into a good position all told and I just hope he and the boys are ready for one more effort to get the league season done.

 

[anant]

Great thread!

 

[glazed]

And that's about 3 seconds longer than he should...

 

[GlasgowCeltic]

On a different note what a player Azpilicueta's been for Chelsea

 

[ThinkTank@Cafe]

All true. Every word. Which is why fielding that team on Sunday was so crazy. Ole basically risked CL qualification for the chance of a bit of Wembley tin can that no-one even cares about.

Yes, it turned out not good, in terms of useful output it might be a miscalculation, but we are a sports club and we want to win at all. Ole might believe in different idea, he wanted the Cup, which is a trophy.

 

[AltiUn]

Wait, Maguire has not missed a single minute the whole season? Wow.

Think the only games he's missed have been an early league cup game and a few in the Europa.

 

[Offside]

We’re going to win the lot very soon.

 

[djembatheking]

Excellent thread Mithrandir , great positivity. Thanks for going to the trouble.

 

[Tom Cato]

This is the type of post I wanted to make but didn't want to commit 2 hours of my day to do so. Excellent post, well done!

 

[wolvored]

Good post. Tiredness from playing very 3 days is what cost us. Yes we have 11/12 good players, a few exceptional. You can see the difference with Fernandes who was playing some WC stuff, along with Greenwood, Martial and Rashford n the first 4-5 games. Eventually we couldnt go toe to toe with Southampton, and the games have gotten worse through tiredness. 3 top players, RW, CM/DM and CB will make all the difference and will give us decent rotation. Ole knows by experience you cant play Mata, Periera, Lingard etc and expect to win, thats why he has stuck to the same 11/12 that have served us so well.

 

[wolvored]

I've never once blamed the players. The problem is Sunday - the whole first XI should have been rested. It's just plain bad management and no amount of straw man arguments can hide that.

We would have been slaughtered 7-0 or some other ridiculous score. You cant play 11 different players with no cohesion, familiarity of ,lack of quality etc. Everyone would have slayed Ole for that. Wht manager ever has done that?

 

[Bilbo]

I don't think enough people realize the magnitude of effort - both physical and mental - that has been asked of some key players since the break, and how well these players have delivered in return. I'd like to show a few numbers to debunk a few arguments that are being thrown about to criticize the players and the manager right now. I think we've been absolutely brilliant since the restart - arguably the best form we've shown post SAF. Given the profile and talent of some of the players we have, I firmly believe this is the most promising side we've seen since SAF - even better than the side that won the Europa League and came 2nd under Mourinho.

On fixture congestion, aka the 'games come thick and fast every season' argument:

In 2018/19, GW 30-39 spanned from 10th March through 12th May in which we played 12 games. That's 5.3 days per game.
In 2019/20, we restarted at GW 30 again on 20th June ending on GW 38 on 27th July in which we would have played 11 games. Thats 3.1 days per game.

We had 70% more time between games last season as compared to this one.


On squad fitness, aka the ' our players get knackered too easily' argument:

Minutes played by Man United players since restart:

	Maguire	Bruno	Rashford	Lindelof	AWB	Martial	Greenwood	Pogba	Matic	Shaw	Williams	McTominay	Fred	Ighalo	James	Rest
Spurs	90	90	90	78	90	78	28	27	12	90	0	89	63	12	62	Dalot
Sheffield Utd	90	74	74	90	90	74	74	74	90	90	0	10	0	16	10	TFM
Norwich	120	120	57	0	0	24	57	42	42	120	57	78	78	120	0	Mata
Brighton	90	64	78	90	90	78	90	64	90	64	26	26	0	12	12	Lingard
Bournemouth	90	90	80	46	90	80	75	90	67	90	0	0	23	10	15	Bailly
Villa	90	71	90	90	66	79	79	90	66	90	24	24	19	11	11
Southampton	90	84	90	90	90	90	84	63	90	75	15	10	27	0	10
Palace	90	90	90	90	90	90	62	90	27	0	0	63	0	0	0
Chelsea	90	90	79	90	79	45	35	35	90	0	90	0	55	11	56
West Ham	90	90	85	90	45	90	90	90	90	0	90	0	0	5	0
Total Minutes	930	863	813	754	730	728	674	665	664	619	302	300	265	197	176
% of Total Possible	100	92.79569892	87.41935484	81.07526882	78.49462366	78.27956989	72.47311828	71.50537634	71.39784946	66.55913978	32.47311828	32.25806452	28.49462366	21.1827957	18.92473118

For comparison, look at minutes by Chelsea players since restart:

	Azpi	Willian	Rudiger	Pulisic	Zouma	Mount	Alonso	Giroud	James	Christensen	Barkley	Kante	Kovacic	Jorginho	Tammy	Rest
Villa	90	90	90	35	0	90	90	80	5	90	35	90	55	0	10	Pedro
City	90	90	90	90	0	90	90	62	0	90	73	90	17	0	28	CHO
Leicester	44	78	90	72	90	46	0	0	46	0	44	90	44	0	90	Gilmour
West Ham	90	90	90	90	0	37	90	27	0	90	63	90	53	0	63	Emerson
Watford	90	76	0	90	90	76	0	76	90	90	90	78	0	0	14	RLC
Palace	90	90	0	90	90	90	0	65	90	90	65	0	0	10	25
Sheffield Utd	90	90	45	66	90	45	45	34	75	45	78	0	0	90	90
Norwich	90	90	90	80	90	0	80	85	10	0	23	0	90	90	5
Manchester Utd	90	80	90	0	90	90	90	80	90	0	0	0	85	90	10
Liverpool	90	59	90	31	90	59	88	59	90	0	0	0	90	90	31
Total Minutes	854	833	675	644	630	623	573	568	496	495	471	438	434	370	366
% of Total Possible	94.88888889	92.55555556	75	71.55555556	70	69.22222222	63.66666667	63.11111111	55.11111111	55	52.33333333	48.66666667	48.22222222	41.11111111	40.66666667

Look at the number of minutes most of our players have had - in a row - during this run. We've hardly got the same quality of depth as Chelsea, and that means the likes of Rashford, Bruno and 18-year-old Greenwood are taking on far more responsibility that they should. Clubs with similarly bare squad depth are losing players left, right and centre - look at Bournemouth, Sheffield, Villa or even Leicester - our players have insane fitness as compared to these clubs, Ole has definitely improved our fitness else we would have lost more than just Shaw to injury.

On squad rotation, aka the 'Ole is an idiot for not rotating against the smaller clubs' argument:

Let's look at results when the squad players (players not part of our current stongest XI) started agains the same 'smaller' clubs in the reverse fixtures earlier this season:

Sheffield United (A) : James, Fred, Williams, Pereira, Phil Jones start : 3-3 Draw
Bournemouth (A): James, Fred, McTominay, Pereira start : 1-0 loss
Villa (H): James, Pereira, Fred, Mata, Williams start: 2-2 Draw
Southampton (A): Mata, Pereira, James, McTominay start: 1-1 Draw
Palace (H) : Lingard, James, McTominay start: 1-2 Loss
West Ham (A): Mata, James, Pereira, McTominary start: 2-0 loss.

3/18 points before restart and 14/18 points now. Do you blame Ole for sticking with a team that works and the starting XI's chemistry with each other over squad players who have massively let him down in the past? Looking at how well we've done now, isn't his decision vindicated? In fact the reason we're close to CL spots is because Ole made that call, I'd say. Our squad players are terrible compared to the other top 6 clubs. James, Ighalo and Williams are just not good enough to trust so many crucial minutes with. Even yesterday, if Bowen wasn't tearing Williams a new one and we had Shaw there instead, I'd be more confident of us getting all 3 points. Sure, Ole took a gamble by playing many key players in the FA cup, but who wouldn't if you saw the current Arsenal side in the final?

On form, aka the 'we are still not good enough' argument:

And here's our form table over the last 10 PL games.

1	Man Utd	10	6	4	0	23	7	16	22	DWDWWWWDWD
2	Man City	10	7	0	3	29	6	23	21	LWWLWLWWWW
3	Wolverhampton	10	6	2	2	13	6	7	20	WdWWWLLWDW
4	Chelsea	10	6	1	3	22	17	5	19	DWWWLWWLWL
5	Tottenham	10	5	3	2	16	10	6	18	LDDWLWdWWW
6	Liverpool	10	5	2	3	18	15	3	17	LWdWLWWDLW
7	Burnley	10	4	5	1	9	9	0	17	dDLWWDWDDW
8	Arsenal	10	5	1	4	14	10	4	16	WLLWWWDLWL
9	Southampton	10	4	3	3	14	11	3	15	LLWLWWDDDW
10	West Ham	10	4	2	4	16	13	3	14	WLLLWDLWWD

Every single team drops points, but no one has dropped them less often than us since Bruno joined. In Gameweek 25, when Bruno made his PL debut against Wolves, we were in 7th - 6 points (-2GD) off Chelsea in 4th and 14 points (-21GD) off Leicester in 3rd. Our turnaround since them has been nothing short of remarkable.

On mentality, aka the 'players are too mentally weak' argument:
I agree. We've made ground, but we took our sweet time doing it, and we may still brick it in the Cup Final against Leicester. We look more nervous whenever we are favourites or have to capitalize on dropped points, and look like a different team than the one that works brilliantly as underdogs. But how is that a criticism, isn't that completely expected?

In our starting XI only De Gea and Matic know what it takes to win the Premier League. Greenwood is 18, Rashford for all his time here is still 22 (just like AWB), Martial was a side-character under Mourinho he's stil 24. In Shaw's absence, Williams is 19 and put through immense mental and physical pressure. Ole himself has not won anything as manager, and he's learning on the job. I'm not saying young players can't be winners, I'm saying they take a little time to mature into winners and leaders - and they're doing it far quicker under Ole than anyone else we've had. For instance, in the big games this season. Against Liverpool, City, Cheslea, Arsenal, Spurs and Leicester this season, we have 21/33 points with 6 wins, 3 draws and 2 losses and GF/GA of 16/7. Not bad for a manager and a team still finding their feet, I'd say.

The current Liverpool team also lost a lot of key games before they won the CL/PL. When you have a young team, it takes time.

---

Irrespective of the result on Sunday (I think we'll get a nervy draw and make it to CL), this is most promising side I've seen since SAF and we should believe in Ole and this team. Hopefully it'll have some very good additions in the coming couple of months as well. I hope these numbers answer some of the daft criticisms being levelled against the team.

Outstanding post. Hats off to you

 

[glazed]

We would have been slaughtered 7-0 or some other ridiculous score. You cant play 11 different players with no cohesion, familiarity of ,lack of quality etc. Everyone would have slayed Ole for that. Wht manager ever has done that?

I doubt that but It's what we should have done irrespective. It really doesn't matter. And I'm pretty sure SAF would have because he did field weak teams for the the FA cup all the time

 

[wolvored]

I doubt that but It's what we should have done irrespective. It really doesn't matter. And I'm pretty sure SAF would have because he did field weak teams for the the FA cup all the time

Fergie never played 11 different players all at one go.

 

[Raees]

Brilliant effort @Gandalf Greyhame

 

[Igor Drefljak]

Here's a stat.

If we win on Sunday: Our joint worst campaign since Moyse
If we draw on Sunday: Our joint worst campaign since Fergie retired
If we lose on Sunday: Our out and out worst campaign since Fergie retired

 

[Matst1]

Here's a stat.

If we win on Sunday: Our joint worst campaign since Moyse
If we draw on Sunday: Our joint worst campaign since Fergie retired
If we lose on Sunday: Our out and out worst campaign since Fergie retired

You dont deserve to support this club.

 

[UnofficialDevil]

You dont deserve to support this club.

Why not? Nothing wrong with what he said. Its our worst points tally post Fergie even though we spent 250m

 

[Walters_19_MuFc]

Haha, fantastic stuff. Enjoyed that!