The most promising side post SAF | And also some stats

GailSpaceWynand

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Here's a stat.

If we win on Sunday: Our joint worst campaign since Moyse
If we draw on Sunday: Our joint worst campaign since Fergie retired
If we lose on Sunday: Our out and out worst campaign since Fergie retired
Here's another stat:

Our treble winners had the worst points tally of almost all PL winners till date and 42nd overall (even lower than clubs who didn't win the title).

There is so much more to football than black and white metrics like points tally esp comparing different seasons. Progress can be measured in other tangible ways. The whole point of this thread is to put into perspective the negatives we have faced this season (injuries, lack of depth and fixture congestions) despite which we are third atm and just had a 19 game unbeaten record. If you want to ignore everything positive we've had (attacking intent, positivity, individual players improving, getting rid of deadwood, bringing in players consistent with what United stands for) because "points" - I don't think there is much to debate really.
 

Web of Bissaka

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Similarities between Ole and Klopp?
So I had a quick look comparing Klopps's first two season onwards and Ole's first two seasons.

1. Both replaced the respective club managers half-way through the season.

2. Ole inherited arguably a stronger squad than what Klopp inherited. League positions seems to portray that (Pool ended up at 8th, United at 5th).

3. Their 2nd season is an improvement, upward trajectory hovering around top 4 base between similarly three horse race.

16/17 -- Pool vs City vs Arsenal​
(Pool and City adding more and more players, then ended up growing more later seasons, City first to win trophies).​
19/20 -- United vs Chelsea vs Leicester​
(United and Chelsea have been improving their squads so far with more players, and they've been predicted to challenge for trophies better next season onward).​

4. Lots of players too improved by them, of course there are also those who are not.

5. Both also dare to sell, remove/loan, let go and drop players including the "top" players completely.
Klopp
Coutinho <-- arguably his most risk among the transfers out.​
Emre Can​
Sakho​
Sturridge​
Benteke​
and others.​
Ole
Lukaku​
Sanchez​
Smalling​
Young​
Herrera​
etc​

6. Klopp's squad had big changes from season after season. Similarly, Ole's squad this season is starkly different than previous seasons squads. Not all of their signings have become a big hit. Klopp also had failed transfers eg. Karius. Ole will have his failed transfers in the future.

7. Earlier players from both clubs generally diminished, and the few who remains became good squad players (mostly fine squad players for Ole so far, still early days).
Klopp - Origi, Milner, Lallana​
Ole - Matic, Mata, Bailly, Romero, Fred, McTominay, etc. (for now).​

Now if only Ole could continue to be ruthless and dare to take risks eg. De Gea is a huge concern.

Overall conclusion?
So many positives signs, promising.

:devil: A bit of optimism is good.
Rather be realistic personally and even being that -> points to better seasons next onward.
 

Igor Drefljak

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Here's another stat:

Our treble winners had the worst points tally of almost all PL winners till date and 42nd overall (even lower than clubs who didn't win the title).

There is so much more to football than black and white metrics like points tally esp comparing different seasons. Progress can be measured in other tangible ways. The whole point of this thread is to put into perspective the negatives we have faced this season (injuries, lack of depth and fixture congestions) despite which we are third atm and just had a 19 game unbeaten record. If you want to ignore everything positive we've had (attacking intent, positivity, individual players improving, getting rid of deadwood, bringing in players consistent with what United stands for) because "points" - I don't think there is much to debate really.
I'm actually quite positive about the team we've got currently and even though I think Ole isn't the right man for the job, I think he deserves a chance next season.
I just don't buy the lack of depth argument.
He's ran our players into the ground.
 

GailSpaceWynand

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Why not? Nothing wrong with what he said. Its our worst points tally post Fergie even though we spent 250m
Why only the spent amount? We got rid of Lukaku /Sanchez/Herrera (arguably 3 players who were starting under Mourinho) and didn't buy replacements for them.

Plus the state of the squad after years of neglect was obvious to everyone. When ole was appointed everyone knew that this was a rebuild job (very different from already having a functional squad and adding bits to it - required major upheavel in acquisitions and mentality). What he has achieved despite this has to be commended.
 

RUCK4444

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A positive thread? How did I only just notice this thread.

Great post. Reflects a lot of what we saw in our great form before the dip just recently.

Without doubt this is the most promising side we’ve had since SAF, a few additions to allow for some much required rotation will see us take it up a level and challenge.

Let’s get the job done against Leicester now, c’mon United :devil:
 

GailSpaceWynand

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I'm actually quite positive about the team we've got currently and even though I think Ole isn't the right man for the job, I think he deserves a chance next season.
I just don't buy the lack of depth argument.
He's ran our players into the ground.
You don't buy it?

Can we play Lingard/Pereira (in place of Bruno) without a substantial drop in quality? Who's our 2nd right back? Dalot? Comparable to Bissaka or able to do a job in his place?

God forbid if martial and rashy were to get injured who'd replace them? Mata? James(who was playing championship till last season and is clearly a WIP?)

Edit: must add Ole got lucky with Brandon. Imagine if we didn't have him. Who'd replace Shaw?
 

Igor Drefljak

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You don't buy it?

Can we play Lingard/Pereira (in place of Bruno) without a substantial drop in quality? Who's our 2nd right back? Dalot? Comparable to Bissaka or able to do a job in his place?

God forbid if martial and rashy were to get injured who'd replace them? Mata? James(who was playing championship till last season and is clearly a WIP?)
Football is a team game.
Shaqiri and Origi are big step downs from Mane and Salah
Jesus is a considerable drop in quality compared to Aguero
Lovren isn't as good as Gomez

Squads have to use their depth.
Yes we hate on our depth, but it was only before we bought Bruno this place was salivating over McTominay and Fred, Matic was as good as gone, yet them two cant get a game while Matic needs a rest
 

tenpoless

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One stat that sticks out is how Maguire has played every single minute of every game so far. 930 minutes in 34 days is no joke. The amount of concentration and coordination required is very taxing - I'm far more forgiving of his Chelsea debacle taking this into context.
I agree, it must be tiring mentally.
 

GailSpaceWynand

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Football is a team game.
Shaqiri and Origi are big step downs from Mane and Salah
Jesus is a considerable drop in quality compared to Aguero
Lovren isn't as good as Gomez

Squads have to use their depth.
Yes we hate on our depth, but it was only before we bought Bruno this place was salivating over McTominay and Fred, Matic was as good as gone, yet them two cant get a game while Matic needs a rest
City had an obvious drop in quality this season because of not having fully fit eleven (Laporte/Aguero). Liverpool have had a freak lucky season with almost no injuries. Let's see how they cope next season if they don't get adequate cover.

Also I didn't mention Fred /McT because they have been great. I am not blinkered enough to not criticize Ole too. Maybe his squad management needs something to be desired. Having said that, a few games back he played McT / Fred and it was obvious that they didnt look in fine touch (to say the least) after the restart. Matic took his chances and played well and each time he doesn't play we look dodgy at the back. Also tactically playing a fred-mctominay pivot (2 b2bs) is different from playing Matic-Pogba. But I agree; in midfield we can probably rotate without a huge difference. Defence and forwards we have 0 depth.
 

Igor Drefljak

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City had an obvious drop in quality this season because of not having fully fit eleven (Laporte/Aguero). Liverpool have had a freak lucky season with almost no injuries. Let's see how they cope next season if they don't get adequate cover.
Freak lucky season?
If they win their game they end on 99 points
They got 97 last season

Two seasons on the bounce isn't freak lucky

I agree with you that some of our depth isn't fantastic and I'm not actually questioning that, but time management hasn't been great.
Was the FA cup ever that important with what was at stake?
 

GailSpaceWynand

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Freak lucky season?
If they win their game they end on 99 points
They got 97 last season

Two seasons on the bounce isn't freak lucky

I agree with you that some of our depth isn't fantastic and I'm not actually questioning that, but time management hasn't been great.
Was the FA cup ever that important with what was at stake?
I'm terms of injuries - yes, it was a freakish lucky season or maybe really unlucky for us to miss Pogba for almost the whole season and martial/rashy for parts of it.

Yes, time management by FA has been shit - in a cup semi one club had 48 hours more rest. This may be just opinions but we were 2 games away from lifting a trophy. Ole prolly got caught in the middle of not giving a feck and going for it. And we were let down by injuries (to the head which is unfortunate really) and individual mistakes. Tactically first half's 532 didn't work at all. Shit happens. One bad game out of 20 isn't the norm - it's an exception.
 

glazed

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Fergie never played 11 different players all at one go.
True. But 5 or 6. That's what a decent manager would have done. Pogba, Bruno, Rashford, Matic, AWB, Maguire - all should have been watching from home on Sunday. And now we could pay the price. I mean we could still do it and qualify. Chances are pretty decent. But it's a roll of the dice.
 

Web of Bissaka

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:angel: Great thread and great OP.

Nice to see a positive thread around to balance the scale a bit vs the usually more negative threads. Neutral threads are also getting rarer in the United forum section.

On squad rotation, aka the 'Ole is an idiot for not rotating against the smaller clubs' argument:

Let's look at results when the squad players (players not part of our current stongest XI) started agains the same 'smaller' clubs in the reverse fixtures earlier this season:

Sheffield United (A) : James, Fred, Williams, Pereira, Phil Jones start : 3-3 Draw
Bournemouth (A): James, Fred, McTominay, Pereira start : 1-0 loss
Villa (H): James, Pereira, Fred, Mata, Williams start: 2-2 Draw
Southampton (A): Mata, Pereira, James, McTominay start: 1-1 Draw
Palace (H) : Lingard, James, McTominay start: 1-2 Loss
West Ham (A): Mata, James, Pereira, McTominary start: 2-0 loss.

3/18 points before restart and 14/18 points now. Do you blame Ole for sticking with a team that works and the starting XI's chemistry with each other over squad players who have massively let him down in the past? Looking at how well we've done now, isn't his decision vindicated? In fact the reason we're close to CL spots is because Ole made that call, I'd say. Our squad players are terrible compared to the other top 6 clubs. James, Ighalo and Williams are just not good enough to trust so many crucial minutes with. Even yesterday, if Bowen wasn't tearing Williams a new one and we had Shaw there instead, I'd be more confident of us getting all 3 points. Sure, Ole took a gamble by playing many key players in the FA cup, but who wouldn't if you saw the current Arsenal side in the final?
No problem with the other well-analysed parts at OP...

But this one seems trying to point out the reasons we lost those 6 games are because of the squad players. Just 6 games? Some of our strongest 11 minus Bruno also played in those games.

No other games?
where the squad players played crucial or good roles in winning the games vs the small teams? Surely there's plenty enough to point that, otherwise to the points made in OP.

Apologies if I misunderstood, but the point (seemingly blaming the squad players for those losses) made there at OP seems to be too bias.

In contrast, a more neutral points may be like this..
A) Seems to point out Ole is too afraid of taking slight calculated risks because he just don't trust some of his players or still do not understand some of his players.

I do get most of the squad players are clearly not reliable enough. However.. next to the strongest 11 are arguably Fred, McT (but only vs top teams, not used vs Chelsea) and Ighalo being the the closest.

But Ole is just reluctant to start them in more games, or wrongly select.
eg. 1) no McTominay against Chelsea eventhough the stats backed that having McTominay, we never lost against the top teams + Leicester + Wolves, he chose Fred to partner Matic instead.
2) afraid to try starting Ighalo in league games even when Rashford played poorly, or Greenwood getting fatigued. The stats showed Ighalo always scored when he started games, even if that's against weak-weak teams, and in league games, he tend to get close to scoring, always visible.
3) Fred instead of Matic vs small teams. Haven't calculate the stats yet but possibly there isn't much difference stats and points wise between only either one playing. Maybe. Goals conceded less maybe with Fred than with Matic.

B) I do get his fear of losing top 4 ever since the Spurs game, but doing this slight rotation and adjustment shouldn't be too hard and is calculated well enough.
Eg. 1) Fred + strongest 10 such as against small teams that are known for their good organised high press, Matic is a risk,surely playing Fred can be a better option. Ole seemingly just don't trust nor rate him enough to start over Matic. Fred + Bruno + Pogba looks promising in the one game they were fielded together.
2) McT + strongest 10/9/8/7/6 such as vs Chelsea, Fred-McT or McT-Matic are a lot better and safer options. Pogba getting bench there is fair.
3) Strongest 10 + any eg. Pogba play with Bruno benched for one or two games only vs small teams. Surely this is more than enough. He just can't trust Bruno-less team at all. Best game to try this is the cup game. vs Norwich.
4) Ighalo + strongest 10. The only reason why he don't try this is to continue starting Rashford always at LW. Ighalo with Martial at LW and Greenwood at RW would suffice vs some of the small teams. Remember the games where Rashford didn't play well and also previously? Putting Rash at RW to rest Greenwood with Martial LW and Ighalo at CF can also work.
5) Shift in formation to three midfield? to rest Bruno once or twice vs small teams. Bruno must always play because of his insistence on using 4231 formation, no Bruno = stubborn system doesn't work.

------

So those specific poor rotation of player management in some games is the problem.
Which is down to his stubborn system, lack of trust, lack of understanding in his players and fear in losing top 4.
To be fair, to a huge extent, Ole's decisions are understandable and reasonable, but then, some games are just pushing the limit of player's fitness needlessly and doesn't show good calculation of risks nor trusts in Fred/McT/Ighalo. eg. situation of CBs and FBs do make sense and acceptable for no rotation, but situation of midfielders especially Bruno's and front three forwards, are not.

Sticking with the best 11 are generally correct, but few games, there should be good calculated slight rotations of 2-3 players only.

Another point that people tend to made is the slow response by Ole.
eg. the Spurs game and the Chelsea game are the best high-profile games as examples. Clearly the first tenth minutes are just not working, unfortunately Ole delay in making changes. Pogba could've sub in earlier vs Spurs, while James could've been subbed out earlier vs Chelsea and change of system could've been made earlier vs Chelsea. He likes to waste time which cost us to lose more chances to equalize or get more goals. That two games for examples, our threats in scoring do increase as the latter subs making growing impacts, but the final whistles was blown.
 

UNITED ACADEMY

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True. But 5 or 6. That's what a decent manager would have done. Pogba, Bruno, Rashford, Matic, AWB, Maguire - all should have been watching from home on Sunday. And now we could pay the price. I mean we could still do it and qualify. Chances are pretty decent. But it's a roll of the dice.
Sir Alex is very good with his rotation. Not many manager out there does something like him, Pep is the closest one but the guy has Arab money to back him. You look at Mourinho 14/15, Raineri 15/16, Conte 16/17 & Klopp 19/20. These managers won PL without rotating much because their XI are performing in consistent basis. Klopp pretty much only rotate 1-3 of his players and majority are just the midfield. He set his attackers & defense the same most of the time.

Managers don't often make big rotation unless if you want throw away the game or if your team are losing and playing shite. Lampard pretty much rarely made lot of rotations in his XI until he lost to West Ham & Sheffield United, there are also games where Lampard decided to make massive changes at half time due to poor performance in first half. Even in FA Cup semi final, Lampard made 3 changes from the Norwich game, while we made 4 changes from the Crystal Palace game. We were just in more disadvantage due to the schedule.

I think if this is mid-season or at the start of season with mix of CL & League games, Ole would have make some rotation. However, this is near to end of the season, every of our remaining games is like final matches, it makes sense not to take a risk by resting/rotating his best players (Maguire, Lindelof, Bruno, Pogba, Rashford, Martial, Greenwood) when these same players have been part of our good form since the restart.
 

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Great post. I also think people misunderstand the team mentality in the second half against West Ham. We needed to win by 3 clear goals for it to be any better than a draw for us. In the first half you could see us probing for that first one and if it had come from one of the speculative efforts we had in the first 45 I think you'd have seen us chase the 3-0 which would have allowed us to lose by one goal to Leicester and still qualify. Once Pogba has a brainfart and we go 1-0 down just before half time, though, the idea of scoring 4 goals in one half of football seems a little unlikely and not worth risking conceding for.

So once we had the equaliser early on in the second half we didn't really chase more goals. We kept our shape, didn't take too many risks and ended with the point we needed. Because, combined with that, there were a couple of moments where individuals looked a bit sloppy and West Ham played some decent stuff it means most of the internet has decided we were awful and it's symptomatic of a giant decline. In fact, once Greenwood equalised the brief was just to not lose. A second and even third goal offered us no real advantage.

Great post. I found it strange when I see posts saying the hammers "dominated" us. It was far from that.
I did hope we would at least go for a win, but I understand the tentativeness given that a win and a draw made no difference to qualifying for ECL.
 

MichaelRed

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Quick, make me a mod so I can like this post. Excellently put together. I think it's also interesting what you say about De Gea and Matic being the only PL winners & maybe we'll need to bring in a few experienced winners to really push on to a title charge in the future. Matic isn't the future and De Gea isn't inspiring confidence right now so I wonder where our mental strength will come from? You remark about the EL winning season and I actually think back to that season and how many games won whilst playing poorly & I do wonder if having a player like Zlatan in the squad had a big impact on that. I'm all for the likes of Sancho coming in but maybe we need to add some proven winners aswell to help these youngsters take us back to the top! :)
 

Rafaeldagold

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Here's a stat.

If we win on Sunday: Our joint worst campaign since Moyse
If we draw on Sunday: Our joint worst campaign since Fergie retired
If we lose on Sunday: Our out and out worst campaign since Fergie retired
You can’t give facts around here- you’ll be labelled a non fan!

It’s obvious Ole isn’t good enough but unfortunately he’ll be meandering here for years as the fans think it’s more of a fan thing to do to support a mediocre manager
 

Rafaeldagold

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You dont deserve to support this club.
Don’t like the facts? It’s been a Shiite season & any other season we’d be nowhere near top 4.

He’s not good enough & there much better managers out there. Simple
 

Gasolin

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I'm actually quite positive about the team we've got currently and even though I think Ole isn't the right man for the job, I think he deserves a chance next season.
I just don't buy the lack of depth argument.
He's ran our players into the ground.
He rotated à la SAF when he was at Molde so yes, he’s from that school. But rotation needs to provide consistent results and that’s what needs to be addressed.
 

fps

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I was going to make a thread about this but it fits nicely in here. Please note, the stats are taken directly from Transfermarkt.com

The below represents our squads stats from matchday 1 to 24 (the Burnley loss).
Player​
Games Missed with Injury​
Total Mins​
Percent Played​
Goals​
Assists​
Harry Maguire​
0​
2160​
100%​
0​
1​
Victor Lindelöf​
0​
1980​
92%​
1​
0​
Marcus Rashford​
2​
1882​
87%​
14​
5​
Aaron Wan-Bissaka​
0​
1881​
87%​
0​
1​
Daniel James​
0​
1827​
85%​
3​
6​
Fred​
0​
1588​
74%​
0​
0​
Anthony Martial​
6​
1458​
68%​
8​
3​
Scott McTominay​
5​
1454​
67%​
3​
1​
Andreas Pereira​
0​
1371​
63%​
1​
3​
Ashley Young​
0​
953​
44%​
0​
0​
Jesse Lingard​
0​
889​
41%​
0​
0​
Luke Shaw​
10​
786​
36%​
0​
0​
Juan Mata​
0​
627​
29%​
0​
2​
Nemanja Matic​
9​
601​
28%​
0​
0​
Brandon Williams​
0​
592​
27%​
1​
1​
Paul Pogba​
17​
521​
24%​
0​
2​
Mason Greenwood​
1​
477​
22%​
4​
0​
Axel Tuanzebe​
11​
187​
9%​
0​
0​
Phil Jones​
0​
135​
6%​
0​
0​
Marcos Rojo​
0​
121​
6%​
0​
0​
Diogo Dalot​
18​
63​
3%​
0​
0​
Tahith Chong​
0​
24​
1%​
0​
0​
Angel Gomes​
0​
19​
1%​
0​
0​

Below represents our squads stats from matchday 25 to present.

Player​
Games Missed with Injury
Total Mins​
Percent Played​
Goals​
Assists​
Harry Maguire​
0
1170​
100%​
1​
0​
Bruno Fernandes​
0
1107​
95%​
7​
7​
Aaron Wan-Bissaka​
0
1101​
94%​
0​
3​
Anthony Martial​
0
1092​
93%​
9​
3​
Victor Lindelöf​
0
1023​
87%​
0​
0​
Luke Shaw​
2
949​
81%​
0​
0​
Nemanja Matic​
0
892​
76%​
0​
2​
Mason Greenwood​
0
759​
65%​
6​
1​
Marcus Rashford​
3
683​
58%​
3​
3​
Paul Pogba​
5
594​
51%​
1​
2​
Fred​
0
571​
49%​
0​
0​
Daniel James​
0
464​
40%​
0​
0​
Brandon Williams​
0
324​
28%​
0​
0​
Scott McTominay​
2
313​
27%​
1​
0​
Eric Bailly​
0
148​
13%​
0​
0​
Timothy Fosu-Mensah​
3
135​
12%​
0​
0​
Juan Mata​
0
125​
11%​
0​
0​
Andreas Pereira​
0
118​
10%​
0​
0​
Odion Ighalo​
0
91​
8%​
0​
0​
Jesse Lingard​
0
30​
3%​
0​
0​
Tahith Chong​
0
10​
1%​
0​
0​


A few things burst out comparing the two. For a start, Martial has stepped up a gear, he's surpassed his goal record in the first 24 games. Rashford has barely got involved in the goal scoring, that's a source of goals that we can expect to add next season. Bruno with 7 assists has surpassed the highest total of assists we managed in the first 24 games (James on 6). No real surprise here, but as a team we are far more creative with him in our starting eleven. Pereira and Lingard have been cast aside, they've run out of chances it seems and will most likely be moved on in the Summer having completely failed this season. James, Fred and McTom have been demoted to squad players while Mata is barely featuring anymore. Really could do with Pogba contributing a bit more with some more goals.

If you add Lingard, Pereira and Matas stats together you end up with... 1 goal, 5 assists in 3,159 minutes. That's been part of the problem this season.
I see Grealish as the replacement for all of Mata Lingard and Pereira, covering the Bruno and perhaps Pogba positions.

I see Sancho as the RW allowing Greenwood to be managed as a player of top potential who is 18, not 21.

And some kind of versatile defender would be good. The only Man Utd signing of the last 7 years I currently miss in the squad is Blind, who could cover a variety of positions.

Fred and McT can be trained up to be the Matic alternatives.

I really like the way the team is now playing and looking to play. It’s a shame Maguire hasn’t scored in the league this season, perhaps he can come good on that on Sunday....
 

Listar

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I concur.

How many beautiful goals have we scored since Bruno joined? Those great link up plays leading to goals?

Not 1, not 2, just too many for me to count.

That's progress when we consider the drab we saw for the past 7 years.

People said United were way under-par against West Ham and Southampton. But even in those games did you not see the beautiful goals United scored? That means even when United are not at it they are still producing magic on the field! Even though the whole match may be a drab there is still a chance of being entertained by a wonderfully worked goal. Unless you like the park the bus mentality of Moyes and hope for a lucky penalty that maybe happens once in a decade to get a draw. I rather get a draw being entertained than having 11 men behind the ball hoping for a lucky break and getting it.
 

Listar

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Don’t like the facts? It’s been a Shiite season & any other season we’d be nowhere near top 4.

He’s not good enough & there much better managers out there. Simple
That make no sense. That means Liverpool does not deserve to be champions then because if it were last season they won't be champions? Might as well scraped all the titles United won since if it was last season United would not have won any.
 

Listar

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Here's a stat.

If we win on Sunday: Our joint worst campaign since Moyse
If we draw on Sunday: Our joint worst campaign since Fergie retired
If we lose on Sunday: Our out and out worst campaign since Fergie retired
We finish 6th for 2 seasons since Fergie retired.

We can only at worse finish 5th this season.

You need to check your stats man and get your facts right.

Before you mention points accumulation, it doesn't work that way. It is always league position that determines your season, not points tally. Might as well check goals scored then if you gonna quote points tally.
 

Igor Drefljak

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We finish 6th for 2 seasons since Fergie retired.

We can only at worse finish 5th this season.

You need to check your stats man and get your facts right.

Before you mention points accumulation, it doesn't work that way. It is always league position that determines your season, not points tally. Might as well check goals scored then if you gonna quote points tally.
I know points total isn't the only thing to go off, but it gives a good guide to how our side has progressed over the course of a season.
We've hailed managers as a disaster for not reaching the top 4.
They've all been sacked, with Mourinho getting the chance as he won the Europa one year.

We've spent a lot of money this summer, more than any other side I think? yet with 16 teams the same as last year and 3 different, we've at best matched last seasons points total. Is that progress?
We're lucky teams around us have been as poor as us to keep us in a position to qualify for the Champions League

Ok, let me ask you it another way.
At the start of the season we sell a 'Donkey', loan out a defender people have wanted away for years and Sanchez, a player we've all agreed has been a flop, and then go on to spend 150m give or take on 3 players, while spending another 50 or so in January and getting at best, 66 points, the same as the season just gone, would you have seen that as progress?
 

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I know points total isn't the only thing to go off, but it gives a good guide to how our side has progressed over the course of a season.
We've hailed managers as a disaster for not reaching the top 4.
They've all been sacked, with Mourinho getting the chance as he won the Europa one year.

We've spent a lot of money this summer, more than any other side I think? yet with 16 teams the same as last year and 3 different, we've at best matched last seasons points total. Is that progress?
We're lucky teams around us have been as poor as us to keep us in a position to qualify for the Champions League

Ok, let me ask you it another way.
At the start of the season we sell a 'Donkey', loan out a defender people have wanted away for years and Sanchez, a player we've all agreed has been a flop, and then go on to spend 150m give or take on 3 players, while spending another 50 or so in January and getting at best, 66 points 3rd place, the same better than as the season just gone, would you have seen that as progress?
There fix that for you.

And also there is a slight contradiction in your second paragraph. How can it be both true that there are the same teams but they have been poor? They can't be the same but ends in different positions? Means something has changed? So maybe the competition have improved? I mean I don't see City or Liverpool breaking last year's records?
 

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It didn't need fixing, it's possible fact.
If next year we spend another 150m and only get 58 points, but if we still finish top 4, is that yet another success?
If we win the title at 58 points (not sure if possible) is that a success?

If we end up 6th with better points tally is that progress?
 

Igor Drefljak

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If we win the title at 58 points (not sure if possible) is that a success?

If we end up 6th with better points tally is that progress?
To your first point, I can't see that being possible, so not really worth answering.
To your second point, also, no it's no progress. Of course there is a happy medium here, but saying what a great job he's doing while scraping top 4 is pushing it.

Three teams are fighting for 2 positions right now.
Man United: Spent 150m in the summer and got rid of 3 players they didn't want
Chelsea: Spent 0 in summer, lost their best player
Leicester: Lost their captain and arguably their best player in the summer, while spending roughly 85m

All three sides had managers come in around similar sorts of times
One side stood still (Us)
One side digressed (Chelsea)
One side progressed (Leicester)

I just don't think we've seen progression, thats my problem, even with heavy investment
 

Thisistheone

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I have a lot of time for Maguire really, he's Solskjaer's first name on the team sheet and captain for a reason. Even if he has made some mistakes it's understandable with just how much football he's played this season, 4572 minutes, think he's only missed 5 or 6 games this season.
Yeah. And I read somewhere that he played through a hip injury for around 2 months during the winter when things were looking bad for the club and Ole.

Players like him who play all the time are essential to the team and building towards a title challenge. You look at Liverpool's key players and they never miss games. Van Dijk has been ever present in the league for 2 years now.
 

glazed

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Managers don't often make big rotation unless if you want throw away the game or if your team are losing and playing shite.
That's the point. We should have risked throwing the Chelsea game away. We'd been so poor against Southampton through tiredness that the risk was the same anyway.
 

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That's the point. We should have risked throwing the Chelsea game away. We'd been so poor against Southampton through tiredness that the risk was the same anyway.
The manager still wanted to win it though.
 

glazed

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The manager still wanted to win it though.
That's where he went wrong. If you know your squad is too thin, you have to prioritise. It was just a bad misjudgement that might cost us Champions League. If it does, I would say he deserves to be sacked.
 

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That's where he went wrong. If you know your squad is too thin, you have to prioritise. It was just a bad misjudgement that might cost us Champions League. If it does, I would say he deserves to be sacked.
The guy was criticised by pundits & journalists because he was being naive not to use his strong XI against Chelsea. And you criticised him for making half rotation. Even Lampard made less rotation than him despite of both teams also still aim for top 4. There is no win to win situation here.

Ole made enough rotation to give his team a chance against Chelsea & West Ham. The schedule just favour Chelsea much more than ours, that's the main issue.
 

glazed

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The guy was criticised by pundits & journalists because he was being naive not to use his strong XI against Chelsea. And you criticised him for making half rotation. Even Lampard made less rotation than him despite of both teams also still aim for top 4. There is no win to win situation here.
No-one with half a brain called him out for not using his strongest XI. Just Paul Merson who's cleared too many headers if you I know what I mean.

Look - it's not his job to please everyone. It's his job to get it right. He got flattened in the cup with something pretty close to his best team, so he clearly got that wrong. Exhaustion saw us drop points against a cr@p West Ham team. Luckily it prob won't matter. But if we lose on Sunday, it's down to him.
 

UNITED ACADEMY

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No-one with half a brain called him out for not using his strongest XI. Just Paul Merson who's cleared too many headers if you I know what I mean.

Look - it's not his job to please everyone. It's his job to get it right. He got flattened in the cup with something pretty close to his best team, so he clearly got that wrong. Exhaustion saw us drop points against a cr@p West Ham team. Luckily it prob won't matter. But if we lose on Sunday, it's down to him.
It's not his job to please you either. Prior Chelsea game, we had best scenario to win FA Cup & get CL spot with 2 possible ways. Despite of that, Lampard who should be prioritising the league more actually made less rotation than Ole did in that game. This should tell you that not many manager will make huge rotation in such a game.

Whether it's right or wrong, end of the day that win or draw against West Ham doesn't change things that we still need to at least draw against Leicester with Europa League as our last resource. Should he full rotate and sacrifice the FA Cup, my personal opinion says yes. However, did he have a good reason to just made 4 rotations in that game, yes.
 

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Agree. It's his job to qualify for Champions League. If he succeeds then he's won his gamble. If he fails...well that's on him too.
United is about to win trophy not just about qualify for CL. If we fail, it's a team's fault not just one guy's fault.
 

Zlaatan

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I know points total isn't the only thing to go off, but it gives a good guide to how our side has progressed over the course of a season.
We've hailed managers as a disaster for not reaching the top 4.
They've all been sacked, with Mourinho getting the chance as he won the Europa one year.

We've spent a lot of money this summer, more than any other side I think? yet with 16 teams the same as last year and 3 different, we've at best matched last seasons points total. Is that progress?
We're lucky teams around us have been as poor as us to keep us in a position to qualify for the Champions League

Ok, let me ask you it another way.
At the start of the season we sell a 'Donkey', loan out a defender people have wanted away for years and Sanchez, a player we've all agreed has been a flop, and then go on to spend 150m give or take on 3 players, while spending another 50 or so in January and getting at best, 66 points, the same as the season just gone, would you have seen that as progress?
It's pretty baffling to see someone talk about the lack of progress when the entire football world has realized that we're a completely different team today than we were back in Sep-Dec, with a very large sample size of games and logical explanations as to why that's happened to back it up. Progress from Jan through to July counts just as much as progress from one season to the next, you don't have to compare season to season when you judge something like that.

I mean if last season ended in the middle of January and this season began a week later nothing about the progress of the team would've changed, but we would however currently sit top of the table after half the season. You'd be considered crazy if you came in here and started talking about lack of progress in that case.