The natural successor: Has Neymar blown it?

Maluco

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Nearly everything you've written here is false. His ability is way beyond what he has achieved?

Let's look at those achievements shall we?

He has 27 trophies including the Champions League (he was also top scorer in the year that he won it)

He's scored over 100 goals for 3 different clubs. People will obviously try and denigrate him doing it at Santos and PSG. The problem with the short sighted take is that barely anyone has done this, no matter what leagues they played in. The only ones in the last 80 years are C Ronaldo and Romario. That's it. Zlatan hasn't done it and he has 500+ goals.

Number of career goals: 400+

I mean, do people get how astonishing this is for a player that is not an out and out striker? He's a number 10/attacking midfielder. Try and think of another current number 10 not named Messi with 400 goals. You'll be thinking a long time

Career goals and assists, 650

Self explanatory

Goals and assists for Brazil: 74 goals and FIFTY ONE ASSISTS in 117 games.

He has more assists at international level than Messi in about 50 less games and a better goal ratio than Messi, Ronaldo. Lewa, Suarez, Zlatan. Aguero, Benzema and a whole host of other prolific scorers. And again, he's not even a striker.

People hate this guy for reasons that make no sense to me. But the falsehood that he hasn't achieved anything despite his talent needs to die a quick death. People talk about him like he's freaking Ravel Morrison FFS.
You can talk about stats all you want, it’s all anyone seems to talk about these days. Lukaku has over 250 career goals playing in harder leagues and has 64 in 98 for Belgium. It’s not a gauge in 2022. He is a good striker, but you can’t just claim he is one of the best in the world based of of stats.

You can talk about trophies all you want to. Lesser players have won 4-5 Champions League trophies. It’s not a gauge.

He should have been on the very biggest stage, as consistently one of the very best players in the world for over a decade. There shouldn’t be debates about his greatness or people underrating his ability because of a sub-par, half-time, turn up for big games, period at PSG. As soon as he arrived at Barcelona and was winning La Liga’s and Champions Leagues, that’s where he should have stayed. That’s the level. He took the money and his career suffered.

Winning Ligue 1’s and scoring over 100 goals for PSG won’t be remembered by anyone talking about the true greats of the game, and that’s where he should have been. I have followed him since he broke though at Santos and read so much about him. Everyone believed, and could see, he was destined for greatness. His talent was staggering.

He is a lot like Rooney in many ways, still a quality career, but massive questions of what could have been if he were more driven and committed. And in the case of Neymar, made better decisions.

Everything I said, I stand by. You seem to have built your own strawman argument that “everyone says he hasn’t achieved anything”. Literally no one with any notion of sense is saying that.

But it’s my opinion that he hasn’t achieved the status in the game that he should have, given his prodigious talents. Like Rooney, I think his talent goes beyond what he has achieved on the game, as crazy as that might sound looking at his career. He really was that good.

The only thing “false” with my post is that you don’t agree with it, and you’re welcome to your opinion.
 

Andrade

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You can talk about stats all you want, it’s all anyone seems to talk about these days. Lukaku has over 250 career goals playing in harder leagues and has 64 in 98 for Belgium. It’s not a gauge in 2022. He is a good striker, but you can’t just claim he is one of the best in the world based of of stats.
You use as an example a striker, which just speaks more as to why Neymar is special.

You can talk about trophies all you want to. Lesser players have won 4-5 Champions League trophies. It’s not a gauge.
How many of them have been the top scorer in the Champions League, scored in the final and produced a goal contribution per game in their career in the competition?

He should have been on the very biggest stage, as consistently one of the very best players in the world for over a decade.
He has been consistently one of the best players in the world for over a decade

There shouldn’t be debates about his greatness or people underrating his ability because of a sub-par, half-time, turn up for big games, period at PSG. As soon as he arrived at Barcelona and was winning La Liga’s and Champions Leagues, that’s where he should have stayed. That’s the level. He took the money and his career suffered.
These are all your opinions (which are shared by others to be fair) about what he should have done. But he didn't have to choose that path if he didn't want to. And the suggestion that he should have stayed at a club which was clearly being run into the ground?!?! I think he was smart to leave.

Winning Ligue 1’s and scoring over 100 goals for PSG won’t be remembered by anyone talking about the true greats of the game, and that’s where he should have been. I have followed him since he broke though at Santos and read so much about him. Everyone believed, and could see, he was destined for greatness. His talent was staggering.
Well its good that he also scored 100 goals for Santos and 100 goals for Barcelona then, not to mention 74 Brazil goals in only 119 appearances.

He is a lot like Rooney in many ways, still a quality career, but massive questions of what could have been if he were more driven and committed. And in the case of Neymar, made better decisions.
It's your opinion that he made bad decisions. Going to PSG is not a bad decision except if you have some preconceived idea about what a player should be doing.

Everything I said, I stand by. You seem to have built your own strawman argument that “everyone says he hasn’t achieved anything”. Literally no one with any notion of sense is saying that.
Similarly, you have an idea about what he 'should have achieved' and because he hasn't achieved that, he has not met your standards. I'm pointing out that he has actually had a great career. I'm not sure what you think he should have done, other than not go to PSG, which is something that both Messi and Mbappe have done, along with a lot of other world class players in recent times.

But it’s my opinion that he hasn’t achieved the status in the game that he should have, given his prodigious talents. Like Rooney, I think his talent goes beyond what he has achieved on the game, as crazy as that might sound looking at his career. He really was that good.
What status is that? What should he have been?

The only thing “false” with my post is that you don’t agree with it, and you’re welcome to your opinion.
I don't agree with it. My belief is the false narrative you are pushing (and I don't say that disrespectfully) is this notion that he 'should have been' something else. What is that thing? If it's Messi or Ronaldo then that's an unrealistic expectation. Take those two out of it and there hasn't been a single other player in this generation who combines scoring and creativity to the same elite degree. Not one.
 
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Oly Francis

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You can talk about stats all you want, it’s all anyone seems to talk about these days. Lukaku has over 250 career goals playing in harder leagues and has 64 in 98 for Belgium. It’s not a gauge in 2022. He is a good striker, but you can’t just claim he is one of the best in the world based of of stats.

You can talk about trophies all you want to. Lesser players have won 4-5 Champions League trophies. It’s not a gauge.

He should have been on the very biggest stage, as consistently one of the very best players in the world for over a decade. There shouldn’t be debates about his greatness or people underrating his ability because of a sub-par, half-time, turn up for big games, period at PSG. As soon as he arrived at Barcelona and was winning La Liga’s and Champions Leagues, that’s where he should have stayed. That’s the level. He took the money and his career suffered.

Winning Ligue 1’s and scoring over 100 goals for PSG won’t be remembered by anyone talking about the true greats of the game, and that’s where he should have been. I have followed him since he broke though at Santos and read so much about him. Everyone believed, and could see, he was destined for greatness. His talent was staggering.

He is a lot like Rooney in many ways, still a quality career, but massive questions of what could have been if he were more driven and committed. And in the case of Neymar, made better decisions.

Everything I said, I stand by. You seem to have built your own strawman argument that “everyone says he hasn’t achieved anything”. Literally no one with any notion of sense is saying that.

But it’s my opinion that he hasn’t achieved the status in the game that he should have, given his prodigious talents. Like Rooney, I think his talent goes beyond what he has achieved on the game, as crazy as that might sound looking at his career. He really was that good.

The only thing “false” with my post is that you don’t agree with it, and you’re welcome to your opinion.
Love how your "analysis" doesn't mention once that he broke his ankle twice and needed surgery.

When Neymar arrived at PSG, his performances were far greater than anyhing we ever saw in Ligue 1, he was absolutely amazing, it was as if he was floating on the pitch.

It started to go sideways after his 1st broken ankle, he rushed his return to play the WC and never fully recovered. Then he broke his ankle a second time.

That's what ruined his progression, injuries. To that day, he still plays with a ton of straps around his ankle.
 

JPRouve

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Love how your "analysis" doesn't mention once that he broke his ankle twice and needed surgery.

When Neymar arrived at PSG, his performances were far greater than anyhing we ever saw in Ligue 1, he was absolutely amazing, it was as if he was floating on the pitch.

It started to go sideways after his 1st broken ankle, he rushed his return to play the WC and never fully recovered. Then he broke his ankle a second time.

That's what ruined his progression, injuries. To that day, he still plays with a ton of straps around his ankle.
And the metartasal injury which lasted almost a year.
 

Oly Francis

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And the metartasal injury which lasted almost a year.
Nah, it was probably because of his sister's birthday (that he never attended abroad since he arrived at PSG unless he was injured for months).
 

SirReginald

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Neymar will walk away with a lot of medals and a lot of money but he won’t ever be considered up there with the very best, that top 0.5%. If he is happy with that then it really doesn’t matter.
 

Oly Francis

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Neymar will walk away with a lot of medals and a lot of money but he won’t ever be considered up there with the very best, that top 0.5%. If he is happy with that then it really doesn’t matter.
He's easily to 0.5%, he's just not top 0.05%.
 

AussieDevil

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You use as an example a striker, which just speaks more as to why Neymar is special.



How many of them have been the top scorer in the Champions League, scored in the final and produced a goal contribution per game in their career in the competition?



He has been consistently one of the best players in the world for over a decade



These are all your opinions (which are shared by others to be fair) about what he should have done. But he didn't have to choose that path if he didn't want to. And the suggestion that he should have stayed at a club which was clearly being run into the ground?!?! I think he was smart to leave.



Well its good that he also scored 100 goals for Santos and 100 goals for Barcelona then, not to mention 74 Brazil goals in only 119 appearances.



It's your opinion that he made bad decisions. Going to PSG is not a bad decision except if you have some preconceived idea about what a player should be doing.



Similarly, you have an idea about what he 'should have achieved' and because he hasn't achieved that, he has not met your standards. I'm pointing out that he has actually had a great career. I'm not sure what you think he should have done, other than not go to PSG, which is something that both Messi and Mbappe have done, along with a lot of other world class players in recent times.



What status is that? What should he have been?



I don't agree with it. My belief is the false narrative you are pushing (and I don't say that disrespectfully) is this notion that he 'should have been' something else. What is that thing? If it's Messi or Ronaldo then that's an unrealistic expectation. Take those two out of it and there hasn't been a single other player in this generation who combines scoring and creativity to the same elite degree. Not one.
You’re arguing about a whole different question. Neymar has had a phenomenal career, like you mentioned his performances for Barca the year they won the UCL were fantastic. But the issue is he was on a path to greatness, a path that probably would have landed him a ballon D’or or two, but the whole world knew that was never going to happen once he moved to PSG. He could score 60 goals in a season there and he probably would only still finish 4-5th in the Ballon D’or race there. Whether it’s right or wrong, it’s just the way the footballing world sees a move over there. He also started to coast through games a lot more once he moved to PSG in comparison to his last 2 years at Barca. I don’t fault him for moving and taking all the money he can, but it will ultimately be held against him when we speak about the greatest of the greats.
 

Andrade

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You’re arguing about a whole different question. Neymar has had a phenomenal career, like you mentioned his performances for Barca the year they won the UCL were fantastic. But the issue is he was on a path to greatness, a path that probably would have landed him a ballon D’or or two, but the whole world knew that was never going to happen once he moved to PSG. He could score 60 goals in a season there and he probably would only still finish 4-5th in the Ballon D’or race there. Whether it’s right or wrong, it’s just the way the footballing world sees a move over there. He also started to coast through games a lot more once he moved to PSG in comparison to his last 2 years at Barca. I don’t fault him for moving and taking all the money he can, but it will ultimately be held against him when we speak about the greatest of the greats.
So many things wrong here. First of all, having a Ballon D'or is no indicator of greatness, I could name you a whole load of insanely great players with no Ballon D'Or and quite a few scrubs (relatively speaking) with Ballon D'Ors.

Secondly, there's no reason why he could not have won the Ballon D'or after going to PSG. It's harder for players in France no doubt, but not impossible. You could argue it's an easier league but his performances there have been great when he's not injured, and there's always the Champions League, which is far more a determinant of who wins the Ballon D'Or than the league you play in. Otherwise the likes of Kane, Salah and DeBruyne would be festooned with Ballon D'Ors, given the fact that they supposedly play in the 'hardest league in the world' (TM)

Also, if you actually think the Ballon D'Or is that important in determining greatness (which I don't, not exclusively anyway), it's worth pointing out that Neymar has come up in an era when it was very difficult to win the Ballon D'Or because of the two aliens that have dominated it for a decade plus. I don't like speculating, but I'd suggest that if Ney had played in the 90s or 00s, he would have got 'a Ballon D'Or or two'. The reason that I think it is safe to extrapolate this is the fact that he has finished 3rd in the voting twice (behind you know who) and has more top 10 finishes than any other player over the last 10-15 years except Andres Iniesta (who I believe he might be level with or very close to). But then I guess Andres is not really great either.....
 

11101

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You can talk about stats all you want, it’s all anyone seems to talk about these days. Lukaku has over 250 career goals playing in harder leagues and has 64 in 98 for Belgium. It’s not a gauge in 2022. He is a good striker, but you can’t just claim he is one of the best in the world based of of stats.

You can talk about trophies all you want to. Lesser players have won 4-5 Champions League trophies. It’s not a gauge.

He should have been on the very biggest stage, as consistently one of the very best players in the world for over a decade. There shouldn’t be debates about his greatness or people underrating his ability because of a sub-par, half-time, turn up for big games, period at PSG. As soon as he arrived at Barcelona and was winning La Liga’s and Champions Leagues, that’s where he should have stayed. That’s the level. He took the money and his career suffered.

Winning Ligue 1’s and scoring over 100 goals for PSG won’t be remembered by anyone talking about the true greats of the game, and that’s where he should have been. I have followed him since he broke though at Santos and read so much about him. Everyone believed, and could see, he was destined for greatness. His talent was staggering.

He is a lot like Rooney in many ways, still a quality career, but massive questions of what could have been if he were more driven and committed. And in the case of Neymar, made better decisions.

Everything I said, I stand by. You seem to have built your own strawman argument that “everyone says he hasn’t achieved anything”. Literally no one with any notion of sense is saying that.

But it’s my opinion that he hasn’t achieved the status in the game that he should have, given his prodigious talents. Like Rooney, I think his talent goes beyond what he has achieved on the game, as crazy as that might sound looking at his career. He really was that good.

The only thing “false” with my post is that you don’t agree with it, and you’re welcome to your opinion.
He's quite a lot like Rooney actually. Played supporting act to of one of the greatest ever but never quite made it when asked to be the star himself. Maybe had he stayed at Barcelona he could have done it. He like Rooney won loads but at this stage in his career he should be talked about as one of the greats, and he's just not. We went straight from Ronaldo and Messi to Mbappe and Haaland, with nothing in between. Neymar's best will always be known as the years he played next to Messi.
 

Dansk

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Never really hear about him anymore. He just turned 30 and he's already out of the spotlight. While there can be no denying his ability, it seems clear that he likes partying and the jetsetter life a bit too much, and this has taken its toll on his playing career. He will be remembered mostly for his ridiculous transfer fee, despicable behaviour on the pitch, and primadonna attitude off the pitch. His footballing accomplishments have taken a back seat to that.
 
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Oly Francis

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He's quite a lot like Rooney actually. Played supporting act to of one of the greatest ever but never quite made it when asked to be the star himself. Maybe had he stayed at Barcelona he could have done it. He like Rooney won loads but at this stage in his career he should be talked about as one of the greats, and he's just not. We went straight from Ronaldo and Messi to Mbappe and Haaland, with nothing in between. Neymar's best will always be known as the years he played next to Messi.
The thing is, when Neymar and Mbappé showed up at PSG, Neymar was a vastly superior player, even after his first surgery I'd have picked him over Mbappé if I were to keep only one. Him getting crippled by injuries and his decline is the sole reason why we went straight from Ronaldo/Messi to Mbappé/Haaland, otherwise he would be in the mix.
 

tomaldinho1

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He's quite a lot like Rooney actually. Played supporting act to of one of the greatest ever but never quite made it when asked to be the star himself. Maybe had he stayed at Barcelona he could have done it. He like Rooney won loads but at this stage in his career he should be talked about as one of the greats, and he's just not. We went straight from Ronaldo and Messi to Mbappe and Haaland, with nothing in between. Neymar's best will always be known as the years he played next to Messi.
Mbappe and Haaland have done diddly squat compared to the two before them.
Not sure what you mean re Rooney, he didn’t exactly have a Benzema role with United and both of those players (Rooney/Benzema) have achieved far more than I suspect Mbappe will given he’s staying in Ligue 1. Haaland will probably win everything multiple times unless the league clamps down on City’s cheating/they end up playing second fiddle to the Saudis.
 

11101

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The thing is, when Neymar and Mbappé showed up at PSG, Neymar was a vastly superior player, even after his first surgery I'd have picked him over Mbappé if I were to keep only one. Him getting crippled by injuries and his decline is the sole reason why we went straight from Ronaldo/Messi to Mbappé/Haaland, otherwise he would be in the mix.
Even without that, he wasted his opportunity by going to PSG. I think Mbappe made a big mistake chasing the money with the new contract and there's now a fair chance he fades a bit. He should have left for the big stage and cemented himself as the heir to those two.

Unless of course he's done a Ronaldo and will go with good grace and a transfer fee next summer.
 

Oly Francis

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Even without that, he wasted his opportunity by going to PSG. I think Mbappe made a big mistake chasing the money with the new contract and there's now a fair chance he fades a bit. He should have left for the big stage and cemented himself as the heir to those two.

Unless of course he's done a Ronaldo and will go with good grace and a transfer fee next summer.
Lewandowski was a ballon d'or contender last year mainly because he scored a lot in Bundesliga. Don't worry about Mbappé, if he performs well in the CL and with the NT, there's not reason for him to fade. It's not as if he faded in the past 5 years he was at PSG.
 

DoctorEvil

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Apparently, he has been spending his summer so far playing poker art the WSOP. Even hit a straight flush in a cash game.

Wouldn't mind playing there myself, but work will not allow this. Maybe its for the best, as covid seems to be rampant there.
 

FrankFoot

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So many things wrong here. First of all, having a Ballon D'or is no indicator of greatness, I could name you a whole load of insanely great players with no Ballon D'Or and quite a few scrubs (relatively speaking) with Ballon D'Ors.

Secondly, there's no reason why he could not have won the Ballon D'or after going to PSG. It's harder for players in France no doubt, but not impossible. You could argue it's an easier league but his performances there have been great when he's not injured, and there's always the Champions League, which is far more a determinant of who wins the Ballon D'Or than the league you play in. Otherwise the likes of Kane, Salah and DeBruyne would be festooned with Ballon D'Ors, given the fact that they supposedly play in the 'hardest league in the world' (TM)

Also, if you actually think the Ballon D'Or is that important in determining greatness (which I don't, not exclusively anyway), it's worth pointing out that Neymar has come up in an era when it was very difficult to win the Ballon D'Or because of the two aliens that have dominated it for a decade plus. I don't like speculating, but I'd suggest that if Ney had played in the 90s or 00s, he would have got 'a Ballon D'Or or two'. The reason that I think it is safe to extrapolate this is the fact that he has finished 3rd in the voting twice (behind you know who) and has more top 10 finishes than any other player over the last 10-15 years except Andres Iniesta (who I believe he might be level with or very close to). But then I guess Andres is not really great either.....
You can't extrapolate Neymar winning Balloon d'
Or in past times, because it was a different football and different mechanics.

- Ligue 1 was way more competitive in the 90s, and PSG wasn't the best team in France, he wouldn't have the best teammates around and wouldn't be winning games without sweating as he does nowadays for PSG.
- Talent was more spread between teams, unlike nowadays with 5-8 rich teams concentrating the best talents, and letting scraps to the rest, which creates a huge gap between big and smaller teams(easier for stad-padding).
- Talented players are more protected by refeeres nowadays, the game was rougher 30 years ago. Now refeeres are giving away yellow cards at the minimal contact, which condition defenders very fast, for the sake of spectacle.

I understand that GOATs Messi and Ronaldo, have overshadowed Neymar and he deserves more recognition as the world class player he was...but if he moves to another era, he has to play under the rules and context of those times. Using current context of Football and applying it on other times to extrapolate situations, doesn't make much sense IMO.
 

Andrade

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You can't extrapolate Neymar winning Balloon d'
Or in past times, because it was a different football and different mechanics.

- Ligue 1 was way more competitive in the 90s, and PSG wasn't the best team in France, he wouldn't have the best teammates around and wouldn't be winning games without sweating as he does nowadays for PSG.
- Talent was more spread between teams, unlike nowadays with 5-8 rich teams concentrating the best talents, and letting scraps to the rest, which creates a huge gap between big and smaller teams(easier for stad-padding).
- Talented players are more protected by refeeres nowadays, the game was rougher 30 years ago. Now refeeres are giving away yellow cards at the minimal contact, which condition defenders very fast, for the sake of spectacle.

I understand that GOATs Messi and Ronaldo, have overshadowed Neymar and he deserves more recognition as the world class player he was...but if he moves to another era, he has to play under the rules and context of those times. Using current context of Football and applying it on other times to extrapolate situations, doesn't make much sense IMO.
I hesitate to get further into this because the Ballon D'Or is fairly meaningless to me, but did you miss the bit where I said that Neymar has the third best results in this era along with Iniesta?. You've launched into lots of factors that are notr relevant. The point is simple. There was a 10 year period when the award was won by either Messi or Ronaldo. In a normal decade, like the 90s or the 00s, the award is won by 9 or 10 different players. So Neymar would have had a better chance if he was playing then. There's no guarantee and it's just speculation, but the maths is pretty clear.
 

Sayros

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Mbappe and Haaland have done diddly squat compared to the two before them.
Not sure what you mean re Rooney, he didn’t exactly have a Benzema role with United and both of those players (Rooney/Benzema) have achieved far more than I suspect Mbappe will given he’s staying in Ligue 1. Haaland will probably win everything multiple times unless the league clamps down on City’s cheating/they end up playing second fiddle to the Saudis.
Mbappe and Halaand are ahead of them in most metrics at the same age, Mbappe won a world cup, Mbappe's only 23 years old and Haaland 21 where he played at Dortmund instead of stacked teams Barcelona/United/PSG. All you can hold against them is time, but what they've done in the time they've already had is far more than 'diddly squat'.
 

DWelbz19

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Haaland’s done feck all up until this point to be compared to Neymar, come on now.
 

tomaldinho1

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Mbappe and Halaand are ahead of them in most metrics at the same age, Mbappe won a world cup, Mbappe's only 23 years old and Haaland 21 where he played at Dortmund instead of stacked teams Barcelona/United/PSG. All you can hold against them is time, but what they've done in the time they've already had is far more than 'diddly squat'.
You compared them to Messi and Ronaldo…

Mbappe has won a WC, yes, but what else of note? Haaland hasn’t really done anything he’s just ludicrously talented and we expect he’ll do well in a dominant team in the PL.

Neymar fecked his career with his move to PSG but his Barca/Santos career still dwarfs what Mbappe/Haaland have done so far.
 

kaiser1

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You’re arguing about a whole different question. Neymar has had a phenomenal career, like you mentioned his performances for Barca the year they won the UCL were fantastic. But the issue is he was on a path to greatness, a path that probably would have landed him a ballon D’or or two, but the whole world knew that was never going to happen once he moved to PSG. He could score 60 goals in a season there and he probably would only still finish 4-5th in the Ballon D’or race there. Whether it’s right or wrong, it’s just the way the footballing world sees a move over there. He also started to coast through games a lot more once he moved to PSG in comparison to his last 2 years at Barca. I don’t fault him for moving and taking all the money he can, but it will ultimately be held against him when we speak about the greatest of the greats.
Neither KdB Salah who are the best players in the supposed best league have ever finished top 3 in Balon dor.

Neymar played mostly in an era where 2 guys won all the Balon dor. If we are to use Balon dor as a metric without the context of who they were competing against then you will have a situation where Michael Owen Balon dor winner ends up being greater than Xavi and Iniesta
 

RedRonaldo

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Talent wise he is definitely up there with Ronaldo and even Messi. But he didn’t have the same attitude, professionalism, mentality and determination as the other two. He seem care more about money and party more than his football career. Recently he even said this WC may be his last, could you believe that? He is only 30, Ronaldo still going to play WC at age 37, and Messi at age 35.
 

Skills

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Talent wise he is definitely up there with Ronaldo and even Messi. But he didn’t have the same attitude, professionalism, mentality and determination as the other two. He seem care more about money and party more than his football career. Recently he even said this WC may be his last, could you believe that? He is only 30, Ronaldo still going to play WC at age 37, and Messi at age 35.
Nobody's up there with Messi talent wise.
 

Anderson_7_

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Every time I think of Neymar nowadays, I get kinda sad. A lot of what ifs and what we could've beens. But his talent and ability has never been in question.
 

TenonTen

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Neymar has had a substantially worse injury record than Messi Ronaldo, hasn't he??

Neymar seems like the kind of guy who is happy with the lavish lifestyle he has. He has made peace with his legacy not being as high as those people. He has settled down at the relative comfort of the PSG blanket where he's not even the top dog anymore.

He still has a career very very few Footballers can dream of having. I don't think these kind of Footballers lose any sleep over things like legacy. They are set for life financially and have the experience and adrenaline rush of playing at the highest level and winning stuff.

Also, about "legacy" and place in "Football history"; lot of it is subjective at the end of the day. Empty phrases. Who even decides how high to rate Neymar? Where he could have done better is a bit of respect I guess. He lost a lot of credibility in the public eye because of the diving and the antics but doubt he cares.

He's a top 10 player of current times(say the last 15 or so years). Insane natural ability. Probably on par with Messi in terms of raw talent.
 

Iker Quesadillas

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The reason that I think it is safe to extrapolate this is the fact that he has finished 3rd in the voting twice (behind you know who) and has more top 10 finishes than any other player over the last 10-15 years except Andres Iniesta (who I believe he might be level with or very close to). But then I guess Andres is not really great either.....
I hesitate to get further into this because the Ballon D'Or is fairly meaningless to me, but did you miss the bit where I said that Neymar has the third best results in this era along with Iniesta? ... There's no guarantee and it's just speculation, but the maths is pretty clear.
I don't think the maths are that clear. You're not adding the amount of votes, or the percentages, just looking at somewhat arbitrary standards. Balon d'Or "top 10" for example is meaningless, as anything outside of top 5 is usually 1-2% of the vote.

Of the times he's finished 3rd, one was with 8% of the vote and it was the treble season with Messi and Luis Suarez. Without Messi they don't win that treble and without that treble I doubt he gets up there. The other time was when he moved to PSG.
 

Trex

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The thing is Neymar has never been "the standout player in Europe", he has been amongst the best for his sheer quality but he was never numero uno.
This is why people think he hasn't fulfilled his potential. Maybe its because he went to Paris, maybe its the injuries, or he was slightly overrated at the start or maybe maybe its his lifestyle that limits him, but definitely he was expected to take over once Messi and Ronaldo started slowing down but he hasn't, he lacks that 1/2 seasons were he was above everyone else and untouchable.
 

RedRonaldo

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Nobody's up there with Messi talent wise.
I think in terms of dribbling, he is close to that level.

For example, their best seasons comparison since 2010 (in terms of dribble per game in league):

Neymar
17/18: 7.1
19/20: 6
16/17: 5.6

Messi
10/11: 5.6
19/20: 5.5
17/18: 5.1

But of course that’s just dribbling, but that’s big part of their talent.
 

Fortitude

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I think in terms of dribbling, he is close to that level.

For example, their best seasons comparison since 2010 (in terms of dribble per game in league):

Neymar
17/18: 7.1
19/20: 6
16/17: 5.6

Messi
10/11: 5.6
19/20: 5.5
17/18: 5.1

But of course that’s just dribbling, but that’s big part of their talent.
If you use your eyes, do you think your statement was ever true?
 

FrankFoot

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Neymar has had a substantially worse injury record than Messi Ronaldo, hasn't he??

Neymar seems like the kind of guy who is happy with the lavish lifestyle he has. He has made peace with his legacy not being as high as those people. He has settled down at the relative comfort of the PSG blanket where he's not even the top dog anymore.

He still has a career very very few Footballers can dream of having. I don't think these kind of Footballers lose any sleep over things like legacy. They are set for life financially and have the experience and adrenaline rush of playing at the highest level and winning stuff.

Also, about "legacy" and place in "Football history"; lot of it is subjective at the end of the day. Empty phrases. Who even decides how high to rate Neymar? Where he could have done better is a bit of respect I guess. He lost a lot of credibility in the public eye because of the diving and the antics but doubt he cares.

He's a top 10 player of current times(say the last 15 or so years). Insane natural ability. Probably on par with Messi in terms of raw talent.
Indeed, the word "legacy" seems very overrated.
I don't think players care about legacy as much as people think they do.

For example, GOAT Maradona moved from Boca Juniors (biggest team in argentinian football) to Napoli (a tiny club from southern Italy)... it's very clear that Maradona wasn't thinking about legacy when he made that move.

I doubt Neymar is losing any sleep over what people think about his "legacy" on Twitter and internet forums tbh.

Players are happy to play in a place/country where they feel comfortable while earning a lot of money...the rest seems secondary to most of them.
Not every player is gonna have Ronaldo challenging mentality...and even Ronaldo moved from Madrid to Juventus because he was asking for better wages, and Perez refused.
 

Andrade

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I don't think the maths are that clear. You're not adding the amount of votes, or the percentages, just looking at somewhat arbitrary standards. Balon d'Or "top 10" for example is meaningless, as anything outside of top 5 is usually 1-2% of the vote.

Of the times he's finished 3rd, one was with 8% of the vote and it was the treble season with Messi and Luis Suarez. Without Messi they don't win that treble and without that treble I doubt he gets up there. The other time was when he moved to PSG.
By maths, I meant 2 people winning it over a period of 10+ years as opposed to 9 or 10 people winning it over 10 years. 10 is more than 2.

But nevertheless. I'll address your point, though the Ballon D'Or is largely meaningless to me anyway.

First of all, the notion that anything outside of the top 5 doesn't matter is a bit short sighted. Just because you have a small percentage of the vote, doesn't mean that you were not one of the best players that year. Case in point, Kevin DeBruyne, deemed the best player in supposedly the best league in the world in 2021, finished 8th in the BDO voting. Did he not have a good season? Of course he did. But the whole thing is tied up in politics and illogical thinking. The point is that you get some votes.Top 10 is an arbitrary cut off point of course but it's a pretty typical one (just like top 5 and top 3 are).

Moreover, even if we look just at the top 3, Neymar has 2 top 3 finishes as you point out, which is still pretty good, given that the top 2 spots were occupied by M and R for 10 years.

I don't accept your point that there were other good players in the team in 2015, lots of people have good teammates. Many other high BDO finishers had Messi or Ronaldo as teammates. If you're going to speculate and say Barca don't win that CL without Messi, I can just as easily fantasise and say that Neymar has 2 Ballon D'Ors if Messi and Ronaldo don't exist.
 

TsuWave

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I don’t subscribe to these “nobody is up there with Messi talent wise” takes
 

Oly Francis

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You compared them to Messi and Ronaldo…

Mbappe has won a WC, yes, but what else of note? Haaland hasn’t really done anything he’s just ludicrously talented and we expect he’ll do well in a dominant team in the PL.

Neymar fecked his career with his move to PSG but his Barca/Santos career still dwarfs what Mbappe/Haaland have done so far.
It's pretty exausting to repeat for the 100th time that injuries fecked Neymar's carreer, not moving to PSG. His star faded because he's not the player he used to be, not just because he plays in France.
 

TsuWave

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It's basically true to be fair, at least in this generation. Maradona was arguably more talented.
Was with all your posts until this. I just don't subscribe to that notion

that's not to say I don't think he's arguably the best to do it, but "nobody is up there with Messi talent wise" - what does that even mean? How is that even being measured? is it slalom runs?

I've seen Ronaldinho do some truly magical stuff that wowed me in ways Messi hasn't. I've also seen Neymar do the same. Ronaldo (Brazilian) too. Hell, even a young Cristiano. Are they better players than Messi? No - but this "nobody is up there talent wise with Messi" stuff just sounds goofy to me, and I'm not even old enough to have seen or remember the likes of Maradona
 

Andrade

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It's pretty exausting to repeat for the 100th time that injuries fecked Neymar's carreer, not moving to PSG. His star faded because he's not the player he used to be, not just because he plays in France.
I agree that injuries retarded his progress but I don't agree that he's not the player he used to be. I still think there's a lot of juice left. He's was fantastic at the Copa America last year and I thought he got better for PSG this season after a slow start coming off his most recent injury.
 

Andrade

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Was with all your posts until this. I just don't subscribe to that notion

that's not to say I don't think he's arguably the best to do it, but "nobody is up there with Messi talent wise" - what does that even mean? How is that even being measured? is it slalom runs?

I've seen Ronaldinho do some truly magical stuff that wowed me in ways Messi hasn't. I've also seen Neymar do the same. Ronaldo (Brazilian) too. Hell, even a young Cristiano. Are they better players than Messi? No - but this "nobody is up there talent wise with Messi" stuff just sounds goofy to me, and I'm not even old enough to have seen or remember the likes of Maradona
I mean, Neymar and Ronaldinho will tell you themselves that Messi has more talent than them. Cris would too if he wasn't obsessed with competing against him.
 

tomaldinho1

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It's pretty exausting to repeat for the 100th time that injuries fecked Neymar's carreer, not moving to PSG. His star faded because he's not the player he used to be, not just because he plays in France.
Surely you can agree it’s a bit of both?