The natural successor: Has Neymar blown it?

micmac

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I think Neymar care more about his legacy playing for Brazil vs his club career. You got to give it to the man, the kind of injuries he gets to come back at a high level all the time would have ruined many players careers out there.
 

Red&Black

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could never stand him. no idea what it is, but he's absolutely unlikable.

despite this, anyone saying he isnt a top5 player in the last decade+ is out of their minds.
 

TsuWave

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I mean, Neymar and Ronaldinho will tell you themselves that Messi has more talent than them. Cris would too if he wasn't obsessed with competing against him.
I’m not trying to hear none of this nonsense. I already told you it’s goofy to me. You failed to provide a means by which its being measured so at this point it’s just an exercise on what you think it’s cool, which clearly doesn’t align with what I think is cool, and that’s ok. You can save the rest - its not as if I need Ronaldinho’s or Neymar’s seal of approval to form my opinion so these mystic Meg routines on what Ronaldo would have said are just pointless
 

Red the Bear

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In a certain time he was probably the third best player in the world but to be honest I don't think he ever came close to the big two.
 

Eddy_JukeZ

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In a certain time he was probably the third best player in the world but to be honest I don't think he ever came close to the big two.
Why is that an indictment on Neymar though? He didn't come close to arguably the best player ever and another player that people see as the greatest ever and that's a slight towards Neymar?

For what it's worth, there was a period during the 2016 season when Messi was out and Ronaldo was still in his prime, I thought Neymar was clearly better than him and the best player in the world.

And he was pretty incredible in 2016-2017 too(but his goal-scoring dipped compared to the previous seasons).
 

Red the Bear

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Why is that an indictment on Neymar though? He didn't come close to arguably the best player ever and another player that people see as the greatest ever and that's a slight towards Neymar?

For what it's worth, there was a period during the 2016 season when Messi was out and Ronaldo was still in his prime, I thought Neymar was clearly better than him and the best player in the world.

And he was pretty incredible in 2016-2017 too(but his goal-scoring dipped compared to the previous seasons).
It isn't obviously, i just never saw him as the natural successor to them two.

I think Mbappe and halalland are more likely to be that , the timing of their emergence has been better as well.
 

Eddy_JukeZ

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It isn't obviously, i just never saw him as the natural successor to them two.

I think Mbappe and halalland are more likely to be that , the timing of their emergence has been better as well.
If successor means them vying for the Ballon D'Or, sure.

If successor means reaching Messi's and Ronaldo's level, I heavily disagree. I don't think Mbappe nor Haaland have anywhere near the natural talent that Messi has. Neymar was easily more talented than both of them at a similar age IMO.

And I don't think either of them will match Ronaldo's incredible longevity nor record breaking CL knock-out runs.
 

Red the Bear

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If successor means them vying for the Ballon D'Or, sure.

If successor means reaching Messi's and Ronaldo's level, I heavily disagree. I don't think Mbappe nor Haaland have anywhere near the natural talent that Messi has. Neymar was easily more talented than both of them at a similar age IMO.

And I don't think either of them will match Ronaldo's incredible longevity nor record breaking CL knock-out runs.
I don't think they're going to reach those levels and their rivalry is probably gonna be much more lacl luster considering the fact they neither play in the same league or the fact that neither of their clubs is as good as the super clubs that were barca and Madrid in the 2010s.

They're timing however is perfect as both Messi and Ronaldo are on the downward trajectory so both can become the best players in the world something which Neymar due to the unfortunate timing of his career wasn't afforded the chance to.
 

Andrade

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I’m not trying to hear none of this nonsense. I already told you it’s goofy to me. You failed to provide a means by which its being measured so at this point it’s just an exercise on what you think it’s cool, which clearly doesn’t align with what I think is cool, and that’s ok. You can save the rest - its not as if I need Ronaldinho’s or Neymar’s seal of approval to form my opinion so these mystic Meg routines on what Ronaldo would have said are just pointless
I think Dinho and Neymar know more about it than you do.
 

TenonTen

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I think Dinho and Neymar know more about it than you do.
Dinho and Neymar probably have some horror takes. Footballers aren't the sharpest. Most of them say weird stuff from time to time. Probably should have quoted a manager or something. Like Pep or Wenger.
 

Andrade

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Good thing I don’t think Ronaldinho and Neymar are infallible and that I didn’t say anything about what they subscribe to.
Yeah, I'm still not sure why it's a controversial statement to say that he is more talented than everyone else. Is it the degree of superiority suggested that you find so offensive? I don't get it.
 

Andrade

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Dinho and Neymar probably have some horror takes. Footballers aren't the sharpest. Most of them say weird stuff from time to time. Probably should have quoted a manager or something. Like Pep or Wenger.
Footballers play with and against each other at close quarters, they all know who the real ones are and what the hierarchy is Pull up the vids of Henry talking about Messi in training as an example.
 

Zehner

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I think if you define talent purely as technical skill and physique, one can argue that Neymar is more talented than Messi. He can do things with a football Messi probably can't to the same level whereas Messi's close control is probably even better than his. But talent is more than that, IMO. It is also how you process football in your head, how good you are at reading the game, making decisions in split seconds, how well you can track opponent and team mate movements while dribbling, how good you are at anticipating defender movements and so forth. Messi excels in these categories, you just need to read quotes by Xavi, Guardiola, Valverde etc. about how he reads the game.

Similar things can be said about Cristiano. Although he's incredibly gifted technically in his own right, Neymar probably beats him in that category. In his prime he's probably better at any technical aspect of the game bar heading and first touch finishing. But the way Cristiano reads the game, anticipates where spaces will be created, punishes even minor flaws in a marker's positioning etc. is a talent in his own right. I believe this stuff is very underrated because it is very hard to quantify.

That being said, Neymar is still very underrated, in my opinion. People love to hate him and only bedrugingly admit his quality. Many of the assessments regarding him, his work ethics, etc. are very unfair these days and totally blown out of proportions - but people intuitively don't care because they think he deserves it for his antics, joining PSG, etc.
 

TsuWave

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Yeah, I'm still not sure why it's a controversial statement to say that he is more talented than everyone else. Is it the degree of superiority suggested that you find so offensive? I don't get it.
It’s not controversial..? I just said I don’t agree with it/don’t see it that way. I don’t even know how you guys are measuring talent, but there are players I would put in the same bracket as Messi in terms of what I consider talent - and I’m pretty sure most people would agree that talent doesn’t necessarily translate to consistency and/or performances and achievements. I even said I wouldn’t argue against anyone that has him as the best ever - though I have players that meant more to me personally.

You have just been wrestling with me for no reason, telling me what XYZ players would or wouldn’t say - like I couldn’t find similar quotes regarding Ronaldinho from a bunch of players - as if it means anything to me or like it would sway my view. It doesn’t and it won’t.
 

JPRouve

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Neymar is the one player that dragged Barcelona past PSG during the remontada, the way he played and the character that he showed was exceptional when most of his teammates looked absolutely down including Messi. I will always struggle with the criticism regarding Messi. The only time where he had a dubious attitude was short lived, it was at the beginning of his time at PSG but the way he responded from criticism was spot on, he didn't really complain despite being booed and criticized in the media, he just visibly elevated his efforts.

His vision and technique are exceptional but he has one flaw that he shares with Zidane, he has an extra gear for Brazil and when the opposition targets him.
 

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I think if you define talent purely as technical skill and physique, one can argue that Neymar is more talented than Messi. He can do things with a football Messi probably can't to the same level whereas Messi's close control is probably even better than his. But talent is more than that, IMO. It is also how you process football in your head, how good you are at reading the game, making decisions in split seconds, how well you can track opponent and team mate movements while dribbling, how good you are at anticipating defender movements and so forth. Messi excels in these categories, you just need to read quotes by Xavi, Guardiola, Valverde etc. about how he reads the game.

Similar things can be said about Cristiano. Although he's incredibly gifted technically in his own right, Neymar probably beats him in that category. In his prime he's probably better at any technical aspect of the game bar heading and first touch finishing. But the way Cristiano reads the game, anticipates where spaces will be created, punishes even minor flaws in a marker's positioning etc. is a talent in his own right. I believe this stuff is very underrated because it is very hard to quantify.

That being said, Neymar is still very underrated, in my opinion. People love to hate him and only bedrugingly admit his quality. Many of the assessments regarding him, his work ethics, etc. are very unfair these days and totally blown out of proportions - but people intuitively don't care because they think he deserves it for his antics, joining PSG, etc.
Neymar has better freestyle tricks and ball skills but Messi's close control, is otherworldly. In addition his shooting technique from medium range is amongst the best I have ever seen whereas Neymar is not as good.

For me technique in football is about first touch, static ball control, close control at speed and shooting technique. And prime Messi is better than all these things than Neymar. So Messi is actually a better footballer technically than Neymar although the later is not far behind.

Therefore, comparing Messi, CR7 and Neymar:

Natural talent :
Messi > Neymar > Cristiano

Technical ability:
Messi > Neymar > Cristiano

Goalscoring ability:
Messi= Cristiano >> Neymar

All round play minus goals:
Messi > Neymar > Ronaldo

Decisiveness:
Ronaldo = Messi > Neymar

For the career they've had:
Messi = Cristiano >> Neymar.
 
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mshnsh

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If successor means them vying for the Ballon D'Or, sure.

If successor means reaching Messi's and Ronaldo's level, I heavily disagree. I don't think Mbappe nor Haaland have anywhere near the natural talent that Messi has. Neymar was easily more talented than both of them at a similar age IMO.

And I don't think either of them will match Ronaldo's incredible longevity nor record breaking CL knock-out runs.
I think Ronaldo level is reachable by Mbappé or Haaland but requires a supranormal level of dedication and sacrifice.
 

mshnsh

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For me Neymar is underrated by some because of two reasons:

1) Some hate him and do not want to appreciate his talent.

2) Others feel that his talent (second to Messi's) means that he should by now have achieved much more individually and collectively.

The truth is that he has had a very good career so far but below what would be expected given his talent. Somewhat like Rooney (although he is more talented than Rooney) and the opposite of Ronaldo, who, while talented has had a career better than most who are/were more talented.
 

Andrade

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It’s not controversial..? I just said I don’t agree with it/don’t see it that way. I don’t even know how you guys are measuring talent, but there are players I would put in the same bracket as Messi in terms of what I consider talent - and I’m pretty sure most people would agree that talent doesn’t necessarily translate to consistency and/or performances and achievements. I even said I wouldn’t argue against anyone that has him as the best ever - though I have players that meant more to me personally.

You have just been wrestling with me for no reason, telling me what XYZ players would or wouldn’t say - like I couldn’t find similar quotes regarding Ronaldinho from a bunch of players - as if it means anything to me or like it would sway my view. It doesn’t and it won’t.
Talent:

Noun

Natural aptitude or skill
"He possesses more talent than any other player"

That's a fair enough definition for me

I'm not trying to 'sway your view' by the way, you're quite free to think whatever you like.
 

MexicanCowboy

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could never stand him. no idea what it is, but he's absolutely unlikable.

despite this, anyone saying he isnt a top5 player in the last decade+ is out of their minds.
I didn't even like him when he was at Barcelona. He would humillate players from small teams we were trashing. He was a really serious diver. He would disobey Luis Enrique. I was actually glad when he left. Too bad we had a total Moron like Bartomeu as president who didn't know how to spend all that money properly.
 

RedRonaldo

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Neymar has better freestyle tricks and ball skills but Messi's close control, is otherworldly. In addition his shooting technique from medium range is amongst the best I have ever seen whereas Neymar is not as good.

For me technique in football is about first touch, static ball control, close control at speed and shooting technique. And prime Messi is better than all these things than Neymar. So Messi is actually a better footballer technically than Neymar although the later is not far behind.

Therefore, comparing Messi, CR7 and Neymar:

Natural talent :
Messi > Neymar > Cristiano

Technical ability:
Messi > Neymar > Cristiano

Goalscoring ability:
Messi= Cristiano >> Neymar

For the career they've had:
Messi = Cristiano > Neymar.
I have different matrix/rating in comparing these three:

Natural Talent:
Messi > Ronaldo = Neymar

(Messi has most natural talent period. But alot of you forgot how talented Ronaldo was during his early years, George Best himself said its compliment to him when people being compared young Ronaldo with him. Our players are all buzzing and asking Fergie to sign Ronaldo, when they played against young Ronaldo once. I think Neymar was at similar level as Ronaldo talent wise during his early years)

Technical ability:
Messi = Neymar > Ronaldo

(Yes I think Neymar technical matches Messi, he dribbling stats over the years is just as good as Messi, with more tricks in his bags too)

Goalscoring ability:
Ronaldo = Messi >>> Neymar

(Neymar best 3 seasons in Europe scored 39 goals, 31 goals, 28 goals. This sounds more comparable to the worst 3 seasons from Messi/Ronaldo since heir grown up years)

Playmaking ability:
Messi > Neymar >> Ronaldo

(Messi being the best, with Neymar closely following behind. Ronaldo isn't really bad as he has over 230 career assists, which is actually very high. But with his later years (beyond 30s) playing more like a poacher, he is no match with the other 2.

Consistency:
Messi = Ronaldo >>> Neymar

(If not for last season, I'd even rate Messi higher than Ronaldo. Both of them are probably the 2 most consistent players ever, with Messi being the most consistent performer ever. Neymar was far worst than both of them in terms of consistency.)

Longevity:
Ronaldo > Messi > Neymar?

We can't conclude this yet as we don't know how well will Neymar play beyond his 30. But right now, I'd say 37 year old Ronaldo > 35 year old Messi > 30 year old Neymar.

Mentality:
Ronaldo > Messi >>> Neymar

(Ronaldo is all about always having the best mentality, always keeping himself in top condition despite his age, and being the most clutch player on the pitch. Messi is all about maintaining highest level of performance, and keep getting most motm over decade of time, this requires insane level of mentality to keep all that up. Neymar is all about money and partying)
 
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MexicanCowboy

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I don't think they're going to reach those levels and their rivalry is probably gonna be much more lacl luster considering the fact they neither play in the same league or the fact that neither of their clubs is as good as the super clubs that were barca and Madrid in the 2010s.

They're timing however is perfect as both Messi and Ronaldo are on the downward trajectory so both can become the best players in the world something which Neymar due to the unfortunate timing of his career wasn't afforded the chance to.
Wasn't afforded or didn't earn it? Both Cristiano and Messi are very disciplined players. Neymar has never been.
 

Bennz McCarthey17

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Cristiano's talent gets disrespected a lot on here. Dude has scored every kind of goal a forward could score. Solo goals, long range goals, free kicks, headers, back heels. I dont see how anyone is more talented than he is as a forward. Let alone Neymar.
 

fps

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If successor means them vying for the Ballon D'Or, sure.

If successor means reaching Messi's and Ronaldo's level, I heavily disagree. I don't think Mbappe nor Haaland have anywhere near the natural talent that Messi has. Neymar was easily more talented than both of them at a similar age IMO.

And I don't think either of them will match Ronaldo's incredible longevity nor record breaking CL knock-out runs.
Of Mbappe and Haaland, it's still unclear to me whether they can "destroy" other teams regularly the way Messi and Ronaldo could, to me in that era only Robben was similar in terms of being a one-man beat-a-whole-team genius, though of course a slightly level below (merely top of world class!).

I will say that longevity is very hard to predict though.
 

TsuWave

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Talent:

Noun

Natural aptitude or skill
"He possesses more talent than any other player"

That's a fair enough definition for me

I'm not trying to 'sway your view' by the way, you're quite free to think whatever you like.
I didn’t ask for a dictionary definition of talent..? I said I don’t know how you guys are measuring/quantifying it. Bizarre.

And if “skilful” is the hill people want to plant their flags on with their stances on talent, then it further cements my view that “no one is as talented as Messi” is not something I can get jiggy with. I’ve seen Fenomeno, Ronaldinho, Neymar and others play.

Then what was the point of this entire exchange and flimsy attempts at corroboration by telling me what xyz and abc would have said? I simply said I don’t subscribe to that view, which I don’t. I didn’t say it was a controversial view or whatever.
 
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MexicanCowboy

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Cristiano's talent gets disrespected a lot on here. Dude has scored every kind of goal a forward could score. Solo goals, long range goals, free kicks, headers, back heels. I dont see how anyone is more talented than he is as a forward. Let alone Neymar.
Cristiano is a great goal scorer but he lost his dribbling long ago and his passing has never been top class. Cristiano and Messi were kind of similar as youngters. They didn't score much but were a contant threat. Messi kept his dribbling and added insane scoring numbers and asssits. While Cristiano after going to Madrid kind of swap his dibbring for his goalscoring.
 

Andrade

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I didn’t ask for a dictionary definition of talent..? I said I don’t know how you guys are measuring/quantifying it. Bizarre.

And if “skilful” is the hill people want to plant their flags on with their stances on talent, then it further cements my view that “no one is as talented as Messi” is not something I can get jiggy with. I’ve seen Fenomeno, Ronaldinho, Neymar and others play.

Then what was the point of this entire exchange and flimsy attempts are corroboration by telling my what xyz and abc would have said? I simply said I don’t subscribe to that view, which I don’t. I didn’t say it was a controversial view or whatever.
OK bruh
 

Bennz McCarthey17

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Cristiano is a great goal scorer but he lost his dribbling long ago and his passing has never been top class. Cristiano and Messi were kind of similar as youngters. They didn't score much but were a contant threat. Messi kept his dribbling and added insane scoring numbers and asssits. While Cristiano after going to Madrid kind of swap his dibbring for his goalscoring.
"Lost it" or didnt do it as much as he used to as a kid?. And anyway "dribbling" is not the be all and end all when talking about talent. If that was the case, Kevin De Bruyne is not that talented at all at football. Go and look at Cristiano's goals at Man Utd, and at Real in his pomp, and then comeback and tell me what sort of goal he aint never scored. The guy was making a mockery of world class defenders for God sake. Even before he won his 1st Ballon D'or.
 

harms

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But the way Cristiano reads the game, anticipates where spaces will be created, punishes even minor flaws in a marker's positioning etc. is a talent in his own right. I believe this stuff is very underrated because it is very hard to quantify.
It’s very interesting as this is actually something that he had developed (to an all-time great level — perhaps only Müller was better at it) from a very average bottom level, he certainly wasn’t an extremely smart player in his younger days.

So is it a talent that he always had but developed it in an extremely weird curve? Or is his actual talent his unhealthy obsession on self-improvement — and the thought that understanding of the game, off the ball movement, anticipation etc. was an area that he could’ve improved the most without his technical “limitations” (compared to Messi/Maradona) getting in the way?
 

Gio

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I think if you define talent purely as technical skill and physique, one can argue that Neymar is more talented than Messi. He can do things with a football Messi probably can't to the same level whereas Messi's close control is probably even better than his. But talent is more than that, IMO. It is also how you process football in your head, how good you are at reading the game, making decisions in split seconds, how well you can track opponent and team mate movements while dribbling, how good you are at anticipating defender movements and so forth. Messi excels in these categories, you just need to read quotes by Xavi, Guardiola, Valverde etc. about how he reads the game.

Similar things can be said about Cristiano. Although he's incredibly gifted technically in his own right, Neymar probably beats him in that category. In his prime he's probably better at any technical aspect of the game bar heading and first touch finishing. But the way Cristiano reads the game, anticipates where spaces will be created, punishes even minor flaws in a marker's positioning etc. is a talent in his own right. I believe this stuff is very underrated because it is very hard to quantify.

That being said, Neymar is still very underrated, in my opinion. People love to hate him and only bedrugingly admit his quality. Many of the assessments regarding him, his work ethics, etc. are very unfair these days and totally blown out of proportions - but people intuitively don't care because they think he deserves it for his antics, joining PSG, etc.
Good post.
 

passi0509

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Can not imagine that he will join Real. But to be fair there will not be that many clubs who are able to pay the transfer fee as well as the salary.
Guess he will stay at PSG for another few years and then will go to Qatar/MLS/UAE.
 

wr8_utd

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If PSG really want to get rid, the fee may not be that high. His wages and duration of contract will be a gamble but whoever gets him, will get a top player for a year or two at least. Apart from his annual injuries around the time of his sister's birthday.
 

dinostar77

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Can maybe see him at Real Madrid until they get Mbappe for free in 3 years.
I'd like to see him at madrid. But PSG arent going to sell to Madrid are they? Shame we will never see him in the PL. Would probably change alot of peoples opinions including my own, of he was a success in the PL and cut out the theatrics.
 

the_cliff

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I'd like to see him at madrid. But PSG arent going to sell to Madrid are they? Shame we will never see him in the PL. Would probably change alot of peoples opinions including my own, of he was a success in the PL and cut out the theatrics.
Other than Madrid that have got funds for a player on a huge deal since Mbappe didn't sign. I don't see any other team even taking on his wages never mind a transfer fee.

If PSG are serious about getting rid I don't think they're expecting a huge transfer fee.
 

Xanther

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He had so much going for himself. He can still be satisfied with what he did, though. Being part of MSN and winning the treble in the awesome way that they did is a big deal, few people in football history can say they were part of something like that.
 

MrEleson

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Can maybe see him at Real Madrid until they get Mbappe for free in 3 years.
Can’t see how he fits at Madrid with the presence of Vinicius who occupies the same areas of the pitch as Neymar and is currently undroppable.

Plus, Madrid already have one overpayed, injury-prone former great winger/#10 hybrid in the squad in Hazard so don’t need another (although Neymar is still good).
 

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I have different matrix/rating in comparing these three:

Natural Talent:
Messi > Ronaldo = Neymar

(Messi has most natural talent period. But alot of you forgot how talented Ronaldo was during his early years, George Best himself said its compliment to him when people being compared young Ronaldo with him. Our players are all buzzing and asking Fergie to sign Ronaldo, when they played against young Ronaldo once. I think Neymar was at similar level as Ronaldo talent wise during his early years)

Technical ability:
Messi = Neymar > Ronaldo

(Yes I think Neymar technical matches Messi, he dribbling stats over the years is just as good as Messi, with more tricks in his bags too)

Goalscoring ability:
Ronaldo = Messi >>> Neymar

(Neymar best 3 seasons in Europe scored 39 goals, 31 goals, 28 goals. This sounds more comparable to the worst 3 seasons from Messi/Ronaldo since heir grown up years)

Playmaking ability:
Messi > Neymar >> Ronaldo

(Messi being the best, with Neymar closely following behind. Ronaldo isn't really bad as he has over 230 career assists, which is actually very high. But with his later years (beyond 30s) playing more like a poacher, he is no match with the other 2.

Consistency:
Messi = Ronaldo >>> Neymar

(If not for last season, I'd even rate Messi higher than Ronaldo. Both of them are probably the 2 most consistent players ever, with Messi being the most consistent performer ever. Neymar was far worst than both of them in terms of consistency.)

Longevity:
Ronaldo > Messi > Neymar?

We can't conclude this yet as we don't know how well will Neymar play beyond his 30. But right now, I'd say 37 year old Ronaldo > 35 year old Messi > 30 year old Neymar.

Mentality:
Ronaldo > Messi >>> Neymar

(Ronaldo is all about always having the best mentality, always keeping himself in top condition despite his age, and being the most clutch player on the pitch. Messi is all about maintaining highest level of performance, and keep getting most motm over decade of time, this requires insane level of mentality to keep all that up. Neymar is all about money and partying)
great inside post, my mate

If Neymar has a better finishing skills, he could’ve rivaled both of them in personal awards.