The [non] use of Van de Beek - Ole's player?

Davie Moyes

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People are still reading too much into his absence - yesterday Ole prioritised players in midfield who hadn't been on international duty (Matic, Mata and Fred) and it has some logic to it as they should be fresher and have been training with Ole for 2 weeks while VdB only came back few days ago

He will start Vs Istanbul
Exactly this.
 

UmbroDays

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Some of you guys are over reacting. It's early days. Did B Silva get many games at beginning of his City career (or actually how many starts this season?). How about Fabinho, was is not like half a season used sparingly? What about Naby Keita? Okay Ole is no Pep or Klopp so I get why he gets questioned more.

I think DVB has been decent when played but not exactly making himself a cert for the starting 11.

You also have to consider Bruno has to play and then consider which team mates and set up gets the best out of Bruno. That without question has proven to be Fred and Mctominay.

Now after some busy internationals Scott is rested as he travelled to 3 different countries what DVB also played for his country. Fred and Matic did not. You can see why he started with these 2.

Now we've also seen what happens to Utd's central defensive pairing when they don't have enough cover in front, example the Spurs game or even the Istanbul game where I thought DVB like the rest did not exert himself on the game and contributed to our non existent middle which made us far too easy to play against.
So Liverpool who were Champions Legue winners, and an already Premiership competitive team and Man City who hadan already established wonder team and have won the Premiership more times than us in the past 10 years?

All we’re asking for is VdB to start instead of Mata in games against defensive teams
 

Borys

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People are still reading too much into his absence - yesterday Ole prioritised players in midfield who hadn't been on international duty (Matic, Mata and Fred) and it has some logic to it as they should be fresher and have been training with Ole for 2 weeks while VdB only came back few days ago

He will start Vs Istanbul
I agree, however if he somehow rated van de Beek, he would've given him a run and rested Bruno.
Not that I rate Donny very high, but I believe we should start planning who to rest because next few weeks will be difficult. Donny didn't start last game for the Netherlands also, so it made sense to play him.

So Liverpool who were Champions Legue winners, and an already Premiership competitive team and Man City who hadan already established wonder team and have won the Premiership more times than us in the past 10 years?

All we’re asking for is VdB to start instead of Mata in games against defensive teams
Yesterday when Donny was introduced, Bruno was shifted out wide. I doubt Ole sees VdB as anything else than attacking midfielder who plays in the middle. So do I if I'm being honest.
 

Slik

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Have you ever in your life watched VdB play before United?
Yes for your info I have. And secondly he must earn his spot. He has had 3 starts in the team. Not done anything better than the other midfielders when they get to start. So he doesn’t warrant a start yet. Backpassing and sideways passing the whole game in a team that looks to play forward quickly isn’t going to win him any favors in the managers eyes. He should lift his head up more often. He passes back even when there is a runner in space ahead when taking a moment to look up would have helped create a chance. And what he does for United is what matters not what he did before in different league
 

GlasgowCeltic

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Either Ole didn't want him or the long term plan for him is replacing Pogba, neither is ideal imo as I don't think he's good enough for that.

The idea the big summer signing was signed specifically to be a backup when the team is short in so many areas is so baffling I can't help immediately ruling it out.
 

Slik

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Considering our poor performance in that game, he was one of the better players. Technically sound on the ball. You surely can’t make an assessment about him in the games he has featured in so far, he needs a decent run in the team. I don’t think he’s any more cautious then our other midfielders. Having seen him for Holland and Ajax before, passing forward is something he regularly does.
He was in the 10 role. His backwards passing and sideways passing is actually 50% of the reason why the team was poor in that game. If the playmaker is releasing the ball backwards everytim, makes it hard to get the ball into scoring positions
 

UmbroDays

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Yes for your info I have. And secondly he must earn his spot. He has had 3 starts in the team. Not done anything better than the other midfielders when they get to start. So he doesn’t warrant a start yet. Backpassing and sideways passing the whole game in a team that looks to play forward quickly isn’t going to win him any favors in the managers eyes. He should lift his head up more often. He passes back even when there is a runner in space ahead when taking a moment to look up would have helped create a chance. And what he does for United is what matters not what he did before in different league
Based on that response you obviously don’t know VdB playing style then. So you probably just watched him in a few random games. Watch his Eredivisie before Ajax Champions League run and National games to understand better.

Additionally I honestly don’t believe you can say United are a team that looks to pass quickly forward when we are slow as molasses in the middle of the park.

VdB isn’t Bruno and he isn’t even being played in his correct position. That’s why I don’t think you are aware of who VdB is. Passing backwards is not a negative, Ajax, Barca regularly do it. But it’s what happens next. VdB passes back to move to space then expects the ball. That’s how Ajax and VdB play - pass and move. Not pass back then wait 7 seconds for whoever to over think what pass to play and not get it back.

If anyone in the United staff did their homework on the lad, that would be clear and obvious that we don’t play like that. If they really knew that’s how he plays then why buy him? You don’t buy round players to fit inside a square peg. You do t buy a player who has a playing style established and bring him into a system and try and make him play like another player.
 

GoldanoGraham

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I think he has a great first touch and his positional play looks really good - can not understand for the life of me why he didn’t get to start last night - there is no way we needed to play Fred and Matic - the later just meanders around losing the ball - we have to move away from playing 2 holding midfielders in games where we need to press - I understand why we would play Mata in this game but why Donny didn’t play I really struggle to understand - it’s not like our midfield has been ripping it up this season? We are very predictable when we play so we must try something new - even if Donny played on the right of midfield he could take the ball from AWB and stop him running down the right wing like a headless chicken with zero end product.....come in Ole - mix it up!
 

TheGame

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He was in the 10 role. His backwards passing and sideways passing is actually 50% of the reason why the team was poor in that game. If the playmaker is releasing the ball backwards everytim, makes it hard to get the ball into scoring positions
Im sorry but that’s absolute nonsense. How can you lay 50% of the blame for the teams performance on him in that game. What were the other midfielders and attackers doing?
 

MS4

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Any new player should always be 100% starter elsewise transfer was bad and Ole and Ed should be ashamed. This Forum.

if we buy a cheap bad squad player, we complain about having no quality on the bench - when we buy a better player, we should start him
 

jem

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Any new player should always be 100% starter elsewise transfer was bad and Ole and Ed should be ashamed. This Forum.

if we buy a cheap bad squad player, we complain about having no quality on the bench - when we buy a better player, we should start him
Of course the truth lies somewhere in between. I don't think VDB should be a nailed-on starter by any means, but his longest spell on the field in the Prem this season has been what - 30 minutes? And if memory serves, he played very well during that spell against Newcastle. If Juan Mata, who as this stage of his career is the very definition of squad depth, is getting significantly more starting time than VDB, then something is a bit off.
 

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Personally I think there’s probably a bit more to this than we are aware of. He’s either breaking him in very slowly or he’s genuinely just a Bruno sub. I assume ole bought him and wanted him and hopefully his more frequent appearances in time will prove that. I do wonder if we bought him just cos he was a good “deal” without really needing him/wanting him but suspect I am wrong
 

kouroux

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Actually Bernardo Silva only started three of the first sixteen league games when he first joined City. He's probably the perfect example of how we hope this goes - somebody who wasn't getting much gametime at the beginning as the manager obviously thought he wasn't ready, started getting more games as the season wore on and then exploded in his second season. Even Mahrez only started two of his first seven, and that's somebody who had already been very successful in England.
That's mainly because City had better quality overall than our team. It's not like we're in position to afford not using him that frequently.
 

Davie Moyes

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So Liverpool who were Champions Legue winners, and an already Premiership competitive team and Man City who hadan already established wonder team and have won the Premiership more times than us in the past 10 years?

All we’re asking for is VdB to start instead of Mata in games against defensive teams
Where would you play him though? Can be play on the right?
 

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Mahrez and Bilva were gradually getting incorporated into a team with by far the most stacked midfield in the PL at the time. VDB is not even getting starts over Mata and James :houllier:
VDB has actually played more than James this season, albeit most of those minutes have been in the cups. Mata and James are also playing on the wing, a position that VDB has never played before. While I would like to see him given a chance on the wing and see how he goes, perhaps in training it's obvious he struggles there. We saw yesterday that when he came on it actually pushed Bruno out onto the right, so if that's the case is it really worth moving Bruno out of position to bring VDB into the centre?

Similarly I'd like to see him get given a game next to Fred and see how that central midfield goes, but it's understandable if a player that mostly played as an attacking midfielder in the Dutch league last season isn't instantly ready to play in a two man midfield in the Premier League. The #10 role may be the only position he's really impressing in during training for now, and unfortunately for him that has him competing directly with our most important player.

Ultimately it's still early days. During the minutes he's played he's shown some nice touches and interplay but he hasn't exactly been pulling up trees and demanding to start. Hopefully over the next two months as games come thick and thin he'll prove that he's ready to take on a larger role.
 

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We spent the whole of the second half of last season moaning that there wasn’t enough squad depth and everyone looked shattered. Now we have it, everyone is losing their shit about players not playing.

Ole needs to do a better job of rotating, today was a perfect opportunity to rest Bruno for example, but we’re too shit to do it. Also, it was more like £35 million and looks as if we’ve basically bought a Pogba squad replacement in advance.
We are losing our shit because we needed to strengthen our main lineup but instead bought a bench option for some cameos and even spent most of our money in summer on him.
 

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We spent the whole of the second half of last season moaning that there wasn’t enough squad depth and everyone looked shattered. Now we have it, everyone is losing their shit about players not playing.

Ole needs to do a better job of rotating, today was a perfect opportunity to rest Bruno for example, but we’re too shit to do it. Also, it was more like £35 million and looks as if we’ve basically bought a Pogba squad replacement in advance.
You know if we sign players to upgrade our XI also means we are upgrading our squad depth. Ole has been rotating his players between CL & PL.
 

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Yes for your info I have. And secondly he must earn his spot. He has had 3 starts in the team. Not done anything better than the other midfielders when they get to start. So he doesn’t warrant a start yet. Backpassing and sideways passing the whole game in a team that looks to play forward quickly isn’t going to win him any favors in the managers eyes. He should lift his head up more often. He passes back even when there is a runner in space ahead when taking a moment to look up would have helped create a chance. And what he does for United is what matters not what he did before in different league
Yep. That's exactly what I've seen from him. Saw it yesterday as well. Player making a run in his vision and he passed back. Bruno or Scholes or Pogba would have attempted the pass.
 

Walters_19_MuFc

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If we're playing a 4231 and play so narrow as we do, then we may as well try him in one of the wide attacking midfielder roles.
 

DomesticTadpole

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If we're playing a 4231 and play so narrow as we do, then we may as well try him in one of the wide attacking midfielder roles.
Agree. We play with wide forwards, who are not that wide, not conventional wingers. The other problem we have is we have one attacking full back in Telles, Shaw does try. AWB offers nothing on that side.
 

Forevergiggs1

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Yes for your info I have. And secondly he must earn his spot. He has had 3 starts in the team. Not done anything better than the other midfielders when they get to start. So he doesn’t warrant a start yet. Backpassing and sideways passing the whole game in a team that looks to play forward quickly isn’t going to win him any favors in the managers eyes. He should lift his head up more often. He passes back even when there is a runner in space ahead when taking a moment to look up would have helped create a chance. And what he does for United is what matters not what he did before in different league
Of course it matters what he did in a different league because that is the reason we signed him. VDB was almost signed by Madrid but they pulled out at the last second because they didn't want to spend any money and I'm sure 80% of European teams would be glad to have him in their ranks but for better or for worse he chose to come to us and what a bad decision that's proving for him.
I don't think you've watched a lot of him to be so sure of what you're saying. He's the type of player who keeps the ball moving then opens up space for himself to give his team more options. If as you say we are a team that likes to move the ball forward quickly then VDB would be someone who would be very useful but our playing style (or lack of it) means we are not suited to him.

During yesterdays game the Spanish commentators commented about why Donnie wasn't getting a lot of playing time and the issue about Bruno was brought up and whilst they couldn't really understand why he was bought they mentioned that a good manager would find ways to make it work with them playing at the same time and I have to say I agree with them. I know it's still early days with Donnie but there's a lot better player inside than we're currently seeing.
 

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Agree. We play with wide forwards, who are not that wide, not conventional wingers. The other problem we have is we have one attacking full back in Telles, Shaw does try. AWB offers nothing on that side.
AWB certainly needs to improve going forward, but the poor lad doesn't get any support. Rashford, Martial and Bruno all drift to the left to create those attacking overloads but when it comes to the right we have nothing, and its clear he needs that help. Based on that, I'd be inclined to play Greenwood there to keep that width, which would hopefully help AWB going forward.
 

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I think he was definitely bought as a back-up to Bruno and will get plenty of opportunities to play as the season goes on. Didn’t do enough for me when he started against Leipzig. It’s a much better problem to have than having Lingard and Pereria as our options there.
 

Walters_19_MuFc

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I think he was definitely bought as a back-up to Bruno and will get plenty of opportunities to play as the season goes on. Didn’t do enough for me when he started against Leipzig. It’s a much better problem to have than having Lingard and Pereria as our options there.
Well, this is another thing. He has played in the league cup and whilst I understand he's a new player finding his feet, Mata was our stand out player in those games.

We have so many games this season. As you said, he'll get plenty of opportunities.

Will most likely start vs Istanbul.
 

Dan_F

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You know if we sign players to upgrade our XI also means we are upgrading our squad depth. Ole has been rotating his players between CL & PL.
Yes, I’m quite aware how squads work. Would you have preferred us to sign a better number 10 than Bruno? Ole clearly sees him as a 10, they’ve both said that in interviews. I’m not defending Ole, as I think the double pivot isn’t needed in most games, but that’s my opinion as to why we can’t settle on a midfield
 

Hammondo

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I think he has a great first touch and his positional play looks really good - can not understand for the life of me why he didn’t get to start last night - there is no way we needed to play Fred and Matic - the later just meanders around losing the ball - we have to move away from playing 2 holding midfielders in games where we need to press - I understand why we would play Mata in this game but why Donny didn’t play I really struggle to understand - it’s not like our midfield has been ripping it up this season? We are very predictable when we play so we must try something new - even if Donny played on the right of midfield he could take the ball from AWB and stop him running down the right wing like a headless chicken with zero end product.....come in Ole - mix it up!
Well you say that but we didn't lack chances, we had loads of them. Finishing them was our problem.
 

Hammondo

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Agree. We play with wide forwards, who are not that wide, not conventional wingers. The other problem we have is we have one attacking full back in Telles, Shaw does try. AWB offers nothing on that side.
In this setup it's really risky for AWB to commit to an attack. Our wide forwards don't do much to help him in attack or defense.
 

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I think he was definitely bought as a back-up to Bruno and will get plenty of opportunities to play as the season goes on. Didn’t do enough for me when he started against Leipzig. It’s a much better problem to have than having Lingard and Pereria as our options there.
we have 8 games in 28 days coming up and that's before the xmas schedule! He will play plenty starting Tuesday night.
 

DomesticTadpole

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In this setup it's really risky for AWB to commit to an attack. Our wide forwards don't do much to help him in attack or defense.
Well yes. Which is why all the pressure is on Bruno to do all the creating. Trouble is his teammates are quite happy for that to be the case. To me that is wrong, there should be goals and threat coming from different areas or it makes us easier to play against.
 

UNITED ACADEMY

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Yes, I’m quite aware how squads work. Would you have preferred us to sign a better number 10 than Bruno? Ole clearly sees him as a 10, they’ve both said that in interviews. I’m not defending Ole, as I think the double pivot isn’t needed in most games, but that’s my opinion as to why we can’t settle on a midfield
I preferred the money to use on Partey or Zakaria to upgrade Matic/Scott and a new wide player like Grealish or Sancho, that's basically upgrading our XI and also improve our squad depth because some of those players I mentioned can also play as 10.
 

Alexit

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Much ado about nothing. Early days, plenty of games. Keep it moving, nothing to see here folks.
 

UmbroDays

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Where would you play him though? Can be play on the right?
To me he CAN, but that wouldn't be his best position. But either way, as far forward and playing for as long as possible, is the best for him.

He essentially is a Dutch Scholes in terms of movement, speed, thought, box presence, etc. I believe his best role in our current shape is where Bruno plays, but he's a different style of player than Bruno with more shorter, quicker and intricate touches, more movement off the ball to receive the ball in space, rather than being the QB from the middle of the park.

Ajax attacked like a unit where 4/5 players would move the ball together, change positions on the fly to end up in an advanced position - if you see his being season (2018/2019) a lot of his goals or assists were from being in the box. We on the other hand rely on less players to move the ball, but use pace and longer passes and rely on 1of our 2/3 players to make a final dash into the box e.g. quick pass-and-go with Rash & Bruno through ball to Martial/a shot; that relies a lot on physicality and pace.

If we aren't going to carve a space for him, I'd put him on the right of a front 3, but not to provide width, but to exchange passes with the more central Bruno. If he plays on the right of a front three, then I don't think AWB will benefit having him in front of him in regards to getting balls into the box, but AWB will benefit from more pass-and-gos, having a free man to pass to and defensive line breaking runs. I notice on the right that we don't regularly get someone running in behind and the ball being passed to that runner. That is where I think AWB can benefit, as it hides his lack of crossing ability. If VdB or AWB get in behind the line, you'll just need to smash it across the box.

The thing is, unless Ole is willing to try this against teams what we should beat, then the VdB project will fail if he comes on with 12 minutes to go, or doesn't get a good run of 4/5 games.

Yesterday i would have tried Bruno sitting in a deeper QB position:


Or


I'd personally like to see us go forward with the following formation against a weaker team with a little more attacking punch:




These are his highlights from his most standout season, look at his positioning, short passes, short movement into space, runs behind the defense INSIDE of the box, etc:

I think ultimately this quote says it the best:
In July 2018, he rejected an offer made by Italian club Roma citing that "Ajax is the right place for his development".[38]
I have no more posts left for today so I need to extend this post. But look at this post and see the issues we have with no clever, inbetween-the-lines players: https://threader.app/thread/1324357723278987265
 
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lex talionis

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The opponent yesterday was West fukking Brom and yet Ole didn’t believe Donny had enough in his boots to bring him on until garbage time. Madness.

I seriously doubt that Donny dreams of being Bruno’s backup for the next 4-5 seasons.
 

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Can be play on the right?
He probably less effective playing on the right and never play on the right before since he's not really quick and a one on one dribbler like winger but he's the carbon copy of Muller so in my opinion he is intelligent enough to play on the right and across the 3 attacking mid role. Muller played on the right few times in his career and even last season. In fact, he was used on the right in World Cup 2014.

Ideally, we are all want someone who offer more creativity like wide playmaker or creative winger to play on the right but we don't have that, Donny could try to develop his game on the right and this actually benefits him more for Netherlands National team since their right winger is no one.
 

Sandikan

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It's one thing not putting him in when Bruno is playing and we need that security to protect the defence.
But there's no justification at all for playing Mata over a 40m signing.

It's looking a very curious signing at the moment.
 

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He's not getting game time because he isn't considered good enough. Whether the manager's judgement is correct remains to be seen. Imv I find it very unusual that we bring in a Dutch international coming from Holland's no 1 club, playing in the CL and he can't get more than 10 mins per game. Not only that Mata is preferred before him.
Not buying "its only early days" "we've bought him to replace Pogba" bla bla bla. That's bollocks!
 

Hammondo

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Well yes. Which is why all the pressure is on Bruno to do all the creating. Trouble is his teammates are quite happy for that to be the case. To me that is wrong, there should be goals and threat coming from different areas or it makes us easier to play against.
Yes but I think we need a different kind of wide player to what we have. More like Sancho.