The [non] use of Van de Beek - Ole's player?

MadDogg

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So far he hasn't really impressed when played in the #10 role. Tends to not be involved anywhere near enough, and the difference between him and Bruno (where pretty much everything goes through him) is huge.

He's had a few decent games in the deeper midfield role, but there's question marks over him there as well. Hopefully he continues to improve and grow into the team.
 

Delano

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He's an 8. He may think he is a 10 but his passing is nowhere near progressive enough to play in that role.
 

Dr. StrangeHate

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His time will come. It seems he is more of a club buy than an Ole buy. Considering the number of matches in a season, I am sure he will get a good run out this season.
 

The United

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He's an 8. He may think he is a 10 but his passing is nowhere near progressive enough to play in that role.
An 8's passing would be more progressive than his though. He is more of in between midfielder so far. People might spend next 4 years debating where his best position is and will blame whoever the manager for not getting the best out of him.

Sort of like Pogba. But, Pogba shows his class at times no matter where he plays due to his world class talent and (mood). VDB does not have it. Right now, I don't think he is a starter for any position for us.
 

abailey123

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He doesn’t take enough risks to be a #10 like Bruno. Pogba should play #10 when Bruno needs a rest.
Allow Donny to play next to Fred or McTominay. He’s an intelligent player who keeps the ball moving, he’d compliment one of Matic, Fred & McTominay in my opinion
 

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I wanted to post on the "why did we buy VDB thread" but apparently it's closed.

I think that Ole and the board knew that they wouldn't be offering Pogba a new deal and that he would probably get sold this january or next summer; they were proactive with the signing of VDB to replace him.

He wouldn't play a lot this year since he's sharing minutes with Pogba, but he'll play a lot more when Pogba's gone. It makes sense in that, he'll get accustomed to the league and his teamates and we wouldn't get quoted silly prices when we try to replace Pogba eventually after he leaves.
 

b82REZ

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I wanted to post on the "why did we buy VDB thread" but apparently it's closed.

I think that Ole and the board knew that they wouldn't be offering Pogba a new deal and that he would probably get sold this january or next summer; they were proactive with the signing of VDB to replace him.

He wouldn't play a lot this year since he's sharing minutes with Pogba, but he'll play a lot more when Pogba's gone. It makes sense in that, he'll get accustomed to the league and his teamates and we wouldn't get quoted silly prices when we try to replace Pogba eventually after he leaves.
The argument only holds weight if he's playing instead of Pogba and getting his minutes. Despite looking likes he's halfway out of the door, Pogba still appears to be first choice when fit.
 

Strelok

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An 8's passing would be more progressive than his though. He is more of in between midfielder so far. People might spend next 4 years debating where his best position is and will blame whoever the manager for not getting the best out of him.

Sort of like Pogba. But, Pogba shows his class at times no matter where he plays due to his world class talent and (mood). VDB does not have it. Right now, I don't think he is a starter for any position for us.
Agreed.

He's not a PL box to box by any definition of it. A box to box must be good both in defense and attack, and must be a ball carrier. And he also need to be good in arriving late into the box and score. His long shot must be good as well. A classic example of a box to box is Lampard.

He has none of those traits, unfortunately.
 

Samid

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This signing makes less and less sense for every game he plays. Ole wants risk taking flair players in attack, this guy is the complete opposite. Still can’t understand why we spent £40m for a backup no. 10 when there when there were glaring holes in other positions in the starting XI.
 

dinostar77

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He needs a run of games to get match fit again. That will build his confidence and his performances will improve as a result. The lad would have been a Real Madrid player if it wasnt for covid. He's being treated poorly by Ole but hes not the only one. Telles barely plays, bailly is dropped like a hot potato for the average and at fault for both salahs goals yesterday lindelof.

Squad rotation is definitely a weakness in Ole. Though we have been lucky with no injuries to Pogba and Fernandes.
 

Jonno

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This signing makes less and less sense for every game he plays. Ole wants risk taking flair players in attack, this guy is the complete opposite. Still can’t understand why we spent £40m for a backup no. 10 when there when there were glaring holes in other positions in the starting XI.
It's not Football Manager where you can just buy who you like, the fact he was publicly available for purchase helps. Some players are just unavailable unless you pay extortionate fees. We pulled out of Sancho because the fees were astronomically high which I'm as a fan please about.

You also have to consider VDV's personality fits into Ole's United, he's clearly a long-term replacement in our midfield and he's a very good back-up option to rotate with Bruno, which worked well last night.

He'll be playing every week for years in the long term, just not right now when our current midfield is in the form of its life.

Id rather we were reaching for VDB than Lingard or Pereira, put it that way.
 

b82REZ

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I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt for now but he looks very ordinary to me.

His performances will obviously be affected by lack of playing time overall but for me he's shown nothing when he's played.

Personally think he'd be well suited to a deeper role, but I also don't think he'd dovetail well with Fred or McT and partnering him with Pogba would be a disaster. If we sign a Carrick/Alonso-esque DM in the summer we may see better performances from Donny.
 

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Agreed.

He's not a PL box to box by any definition of it. A box to box must be good both in defense and attack, and must be a ball carrier. And he also need to be good in arriving late into the box and score. His long shot must be good as well. A classic example of a box to box is Lampard.

He has none of those traits, unfortunately.
Lampard isn’t a classic box to box by any measure. He always had defensive midfielders playing behind him and was the most advanced midfielder. Essien would be a much better example if you’re using that Chelsea side.
 

Judas

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He's a Europa League and Cup game player right now, Ole's got it right. We can't afford to play him into form at the moment, the league is too important for him to start in, when he looks just not on it.

I suppose he could start midweek for the Sheffield game? Still rather have Bruno play at get the job done though.

I'm not convinced by him so far, but I think it might take him this season to bed in, he looks on a different wavelength to the rest of the team. Plenty of nice touches and moments, but he doesn't stamp his authority onto the game like a Bruno does, even with the latter passing going astray, he's still at least looking to make things happen. VDB plays it safe a lot.
 

Strelok

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Sourcing an article written by a 2 bit amateur sports journalist on a nothing sports website only harms your argument.
Try google "Lampard box to box midfielder". It's like the whole world says he is. And only you say he isn't. Chance you're right is quite small imo.
 

Bilbo

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This signing makes less and less sense for every game he plays. Ole wants risk taking flair players in attack, this guy is the complete opposite. Still can’t understand why we spent £40m for a backup no. 10 when there when there were glaring holes in other positions in the starting XI.
I don't agree that the signing makes less and less sense, but I do feel that it makes more and more sense why he has not yet found himself a place in this team. What we see with him so far is a player that almost always makes the best decision on what to do with the ball, but he isn't getting the ball enough and that can be for many reasons but I see a player that simply hasn't acclimatised to the pace of English football yet. This is why we haven't yet seen him risked too much as a 6 - that issue would be fatal there - and his competition for yesterdays role is un-droppable.

Whatever happens though its fairly low risk for United. We got him for a good price and we shouldn't have too many problems getting most of our money back, but I don't think we are anywhere near having to be concerned about that yet, because I still believe that he is likely to have a long career here once he figures this out.
 

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I think it’s fairly obvious why we signed van de Beek...I imagine the club expected Pogba to leave in the Summer of 2021.

That would leave us with McTominay, Fred and Matic as DM/CMs and van de Beek and Fernandes as CM/AMs

It will be interesting to see what happens now because I don’t think Pogba will leave if we finish top two. For me, having a player of vdBs quality available as a bit part player can only be a good thing.

Plus, we have seen with all of our signings bar Bruno (and arguably Maguire) that coming into a team of our stature, with the problems we have had, and being expected to perform straight away is not realistic.

It’s nice to be able to give players time these days. I have no problem with just continuing to see how it goes with Donny. If at the end of next year he is still getting very limited minutes I am sure we can get most, if not all, of our money back selling to Spain or Italy
 

Pexbo

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Try google "Lampard box to box midfielder". It's like the whole world says he is. And only you say he isn't. Chance you're right is quite small imo.
Lasy journalism and comparisons to Gerrard. Lampard played his entire career in front of two midfielders, one defensive one and another with far more defensive responsibilities than Lampard ever had in an actual box to box role.

Defensive: Makelele, Mikel, (Matic)
B2B: Essien, Ballack, Tiago, (Matic)


For the best part of his career, Lampard had virtually no defensive responsibilities and was free to focus on attacking. That’s not to say he didn’t dip in and help out defensively, of course he did, especially playing in a Mourinho side but that doesn’t qualify him as a box to box midfielder. He has never been known for his defensive capabilities and you can’t give any credit for that to a player who spent his entire career at the tip of a midfield with two workhorses behind him.
 

tomaldinho1

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Lasy journalism and comparisons to Gerrard. Lampard played his entire career in front of two midfielders, one defensive one and another with far more defensive responsibilities than Lampard ever had in an actual box to box role.

Defensive: Makelele, Mikel, (Matic)
B2B: Essien, Ballack, Tiago, (Matic)


For the best part of his career, Lampard had virtually no defensive responsibilities and was free to focus on attacking. That’s not to say he didn’t dip in and help out defensively, of course he did, especially playing in a Mourinho side but that doesn’t qualify him as a box to box midfielder. He has never been known for his defensive capabilities and you can’t give any credit for that to a player who spent his entire career at the tip of a midfield with two workhorses behind him.
I agree with this and this is the issue with trying to categories players (particularly CMs) with tags like we see in FM. Essien, Gerrard, Gravesen (at Everton not Real) were all classic B2B's for me but I don't think the role really exists much now almost every team has a dedicated DM or double pivot whereas back in the days of 442, they were very common.

When I think back to watching Lampard in his pomp, his role is basically a more disciplined version of Bruno. If you had to categorize it, he was all rounder CM with a lot of attacking freedom and excellent work rate. One of the biggest mysteries for me with the whole Scholes/Gerrard/Lampard at England conundrum is why we didn't just play the inverted triangle with Scholes at the base but I guess the world was loving 442 back then and the PL didn't really take to 433 until Mou came along with Makelele.
 

PeteManic

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He is an 8 - but when Pogba is your 8, or you don't even play with an 8 in some games, then how is he going to play? More useful in a diamond but thankfully we haven't used it much this year.
 

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No doubt he's a good player but he doesn't appear to be very suited to the way that we like to play. Looked like a deer in the headlights yesterday. He is so welded to an Ajax playing style I wonder if he would even be able to adapt. Find it hard to believe that he would be Ole's choice for the way that we set up. Hope he comes good but I don't think it's looking so great for him here at Utd.
 

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The comparison to Lingard is ridiculous. Lingard wouldn't be able to play thay first time pass to Rashford for the first goal.
He clearly a talented player, who Ole hasn't have the chance yet to bed in to our first eleven because of how close are the title race are. We will see more of him the deeper we go into the EL and FA Cup
 

Halftrack

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He needs a run of games to get match fit again. That will build his confidence and his performances will improve as a result. The lad would have been a Real Madrid player if it wasnt for covid. He's being treated poorly by Ole but hes not the only one. Telles barely plays, bailly is dropped like a hot potato for the average and at fault for both salahs goals yesterday lindelof.

Squad rotation is definitely a weakness in Ole. Though we have been lucky with no injuries to Pogba and Fernandes.
Treated poorly? You have to earn your spot. VdB has so far done nothing to suggest he should be starting. Telles has been decent, but Luke Shaw on current form is a very obvious first choice.

It might seem harsh that Lindelöf got his place back immediately upon return, given that Bailly had done well, but it's hardly treating Bailly poorly.
 

Rocksy

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Try google "Lampard box to box midfielder". It's like the whole world says he is. And only you say he isn't. Chance you're right is quite small imo.
I agree with the other fella. Lampard was not a proper box to box player, he was somewhere between that and an attacking midfielder. He was good at finding space at the edge of the box or running onto the end of things, maybe the best you could see at that. Wasn’t very good at much else though...
 

Ludens the Red

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He needs a run of games to get match fit again. That will build his confidence and his performances will improve as a result. The lad would have been a Real Madrid player if it wasnt for covid. He's being treated poorly by Ole but hes not the only one. Telles barely plays, bailly is dropped like a hot potato for the average and at fault for both salahs goals yesterday lindelof.

Squad rotation is definitely a weakness in Ole. Though we have been lucky with no injuries to Pogba and Fernandes.
Hmm, disagree with this. To start with Telles is back up to Shaw and Shaw is in the form of his career. Do you see the top managers pulling their fullbacks in and out of their line ups to keep back up players happy?
Same goes for Vdb, are we supposed to heavily rotate Pogba and Bruno? Does De Bruyne get heavily rotated with Bernardo to keep Bernardo happy?

Baily has been a bit of a crock since he got here and so rightfully Ole is managing him.
I actually cannot even fathom how you’re criticising Ole for this.
 

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I don't know how people can keep the myth going that VDB is being poorly treated by Ole. If you can't see why he's not playing every week, maybe footballs not for you. He's being managed well.
 

Garethw

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If this guy is Pogba’s replacement then we are in big trouble.

Not good enough and looks like a waste of money.
 

Borys

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He needs a run of games to get match fit again. That will build his confidence and his performances will improve as a result. The lad would have been a Real Madrid player if it wasnt for covid. He's being treated poorly by Ole but hes not the only one. Telles barely plays, bailly is dropped like a hot potato for the average and at fault for both salahs goals yesterday lindelof.

Squad rotation is definitely a weakness in Ole. Though we have been lucky with no injuries to Pogba and Fernandes.
You must be joking, it's quite the opposite. Ole's been managing the squad very well. You could complain about him not finding a consistent winning formula (first XI), but the way he keeps everybody fresh is one of the most important factors in our league position.

Regarding van de Beek, I really don't understand that is the plan. Many people mentioned he'll be replacing Pogba, well he isn't even played in the same role as Pogba so really makes little sense?
 

MadDogg

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Squad rotation is definitely a weakness in Ole. Though we have been lucky with no injuries to Pogba and Fernandes.
Other than Maguire, AWB, Bruno and to some extent Rashford (four players that we don't really have backups for), he's rotated extremely well. Probably better than any other manager in the league this season.

We've constantly swapped our midfield. Shaw has had regular breaks now we have Telles. Bailly and Lindelof have been rotating well over the last month or so. Martial has played most of the time but with regular rests/dropped. Greenwood, VDB, Cavani (once he got up to speed and past the ban), Mata and James have all been rotating throughout the team to differing amounts. Even our goalkeepers have been rotating to some extent.

Indeed Ole has rotated so much (particular in midfield) that I'm surprised it's worked as well as it has. I'm sure he would have liked to rotate the other four players a bit more as well, but we just don't have the players to do so. VDB hasn't performed well enough to really make himself an option to rotate with Bruno, and he also hasn't performed well enough to force his way into the midfield rotation. His amount of minutes is still closer to Greenwood's than it is to Mata or James though.
 

Snuffkin

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VDB looked ok against pool. Nothing spectacular but what do you get for 50m these days?
 

Devil81

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Should 100% start him against Sheffield United l, we defo need to rotate and he's not been used much at all.

As for his performances I've been underwhelmed to say the least but I will give him the benefit of the doubt for now and hope he improves with more games.
 

Offsideagain

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You don’t get to Captain Ajax and play for the Netherlands if you’re a muppet. VDB will come good, all he needs is a run of games and for the tactics tweeked to bring him into play. He plays down the middle and we’re a left sided biased in most games to exploit Rashford or Martial. Patience.
 

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The notion that DVdB will suddenly come good based on performances for other teams/set ups is rather fanciful. Many players have arrived at clubs, struggled than settled but many have done vive versa.

He is quite obviously a capable, accomplished footballer but I don’t see where he fits in for us, which many questioned when signing him.

If it’s a straight battle between either Bruno or Pogba he’ll never be more than an expensive cup option bar injuries which is truly less than his quality deserves but his place in the line up obviously needs to be earns which he hasn’t done in games & must not be doing in training.

Hopefully he’ll settle but should No.6 leave there’s a rather stark difference in qualities between the pair.
 

Sandikan

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I think someone said it right, that when he's not used right, or enough, he just looks like a simple play it 5yards back to the person he got it from merchant.

He's got a lot of class, and finds space well.

I'm a bit nervous about how he'll fit in long term, but for now we're top of the league, and he is a definite upgrade on the Pereira, Lingard, Mata fare that were starting way too many games last season.