The [non] use of Van de Beek - Ole's player?

kouroux

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Ziyech keeps being mentioned but his situation is very very different. He recently came back from injury and had no preseason. VDB trained with the team and when he featured , he showed he could play well.
 

Stretender

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Van De Beek is not starting because we have a clown of a manager who only plays one style of football, on the counter.

In a game against Chelsea when you need a goal, Van De Beek is the kind of player you need to open up defences not a marathon runner wannabe Dan James.

I hope Ole is gone as soon as possible because he is not a progressive manager, lacks invention and imagination and Manchester United can do better than this PE teacher stuff.

He is severely under utilising the resources he has, there are so many managers who would killl to have a squad like this and play a system with some organised pattern of play rather than this basic counter attacking football.

We have lowered our standards at United to think this guy can coach a team to a premier league title. If he was sacked today, which team in the premier league would employ him?
 

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Am I the only one who isn't concerned about the Donny situation? He usually comes off the bench and looks sharp. We've played just 5 PL games and 1 CL game. Why is it being portrayed like he's being sidelined or discarded? He's come to a new club and is also just 23. With time, he'll show his worth and get into the team if he deserves it. For the record, I do expect him to start one of our next two games. The only point is that I'd rather have him in the team ahead of James who is as useless as they come.
You're not the only one. I really dont get the uproar or the not Ole player theories. We'll play a lot games and there will be more than enough games for him to feature in.
 

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This could become a real problem for Ole, he is going to have the media on his back for leaving out either Donny or Pogba long-term, they can't both play.

I honestly think Donny was purchased with next year in mind and life without Pogba.
 

redzer

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Ok to all the people that think VDB should be be starting.. who do you drop Bruno or Pogba?

VDB plays as attacking mid and there's no dropping Bruno for me.

VDB will start Wednesday night and I hope he has a great game.
 

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Seems I could find a only a limited number of sensible posts in this thread and the best was posted by @Sultan. It's noticable that the media have shifted from their Ole out stance since the results have improved to now looking at other ways of questioning him such as lack of game time for VDB. It's such as non story after 5 games. Did anyone question Klopp after Fabinho did not see the pitch for 6 months? Or Pep or Chelsea hoarding attacking players?
 

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Early days I guess. Acclimatization to a new league in a position we’ve surprisingly got some depth in. Nothing to see here (yet), imo.
Agreed that it's still very early. I just have a problem with the notion that it's about VDB adjusting to a new league, as he's looked mostly positive when he played.

Every new player is an individual and we shouldn't put them all in the same basket. Some players do need time until they are able to contribute. He doesn't look like one, and also looks capable of giving us something most of our other midfielders can't.
 

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Seems I could find a only a limited number of sensible posts in this thread and the best was posted by @Sultan. It's noticable that the media have shifted from their Ole out stance since the results have improved to now looking at other ways of questioning him such as lack of game time for VDB. It's such as non story after 5 games. Did anyone question Klopp after Fabinho did not see the pitch for 6 months? Or Pep or Chelsea hoarding attacking players?
The media reaction to this is typically brainless, GNev didn't help. After the Spurs game, United were always going to play safe against Chelsea, whi did exactly the same. There was always going to be two solid , EPL-aware midfielders, and Bruno woul start. When subs came on, did anyone seriously believe he would not put on Pogba, and then, needing a goal he put on Cavani and Greenwood. My only change from any of that would have been starting Greenwood instead of James. Everyone complained of lack of midfielders in the squad , now we have them people still complain.
 

kouroux

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Seems I could find a only a limited number of sensible posts in this thread and the best was posted by @Sultan. It's noticable that the media have shifted from their Ole out stance since the results have improved to now looking at other ways of questioning him such as lack of game time for VDB. It's such as non story after 5 games. Did anyone question Klopp after Fabinho did not see the pitch for 6 months? Or Pep or Chelsea hoarding attacking players?
The thing that I remember is that he was adapting bad in those first few months so his performances weren't amazing. VDB, despite a little bit, has showed very promising signs already which is some fans wanna see him more. It's understandable I think
However using it as an excuse to trash Ole is stupid, the season is barely starting
 

Red_Orchestra

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I reckon we should give VDB the Mata role as a free floating right midfielder.
There really isn't a place for VDB in the lineup except for that vacant right side. Of course there's Greenwood, but he is to attack minded and doesn't track back, he adds nothing off the ball.
 

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Ok to all the people that think VDB should be be starting.. who do you drop Bruno or Pogba?

VDB plays as attacking mid and there's no dropping Bruno for me.

VDB will start Wednesday night and I hope he has a great game.
He isn't just an attacking mid at all. He's played far more in a proper midfield position and we shouldn't be limiting his usage to a Bruno replacement.
 

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The thing that I remember is that he was adapting bad in those first few months so his performances weren't amazing. VDB, despite a little bit, has showed very promising signs already which is some fans wanna see him more. It's understandable I think
However using it as an excuse to trash Ole is stupid, the season is barely starting
The thing is that we only see what VDB is doing on the pitch while the manager and the coaching staff observe him through out the week. Maybe they feel he is not fully ready to start, especially in a position where we have strength in depth. Plus whatever little I have seen of him in a United shirt he seems to be a front third player. So he is not going to replace Bruno in the lineup is he? Not right now with Bruno's insane productivity. That leaves Ole with changing the system to accommodate VdB or starting him in a double pivot. All too hypothetical now and I dont think its fair to criticize Ole or any manager to not play a young player 5 games into the season. It was the same last season with Mason and Ole was proven to be right in his handling of him in the end.
 

bsCallout

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If Ole stop proceedkng with 433 and either went 352 or 442 diamond we'd see him more. Other than that I think hes just being given time to settle in and plays in a position with lots of competition.

Playing James will be Oles downfall. Not not playing VDB.
 

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Having two holding midfielders to do the job of one proper one in midfield certainly isn't helping his prospects of starting....
 

Abhinav

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He isn't just an attacking mid at all. He's played far more in a proper midfield position and we shouldn't be limiting his usage to a Bruno replacement.
I have not seen anything of VdB in a United shirt so far which suggests he can run a midfield from deeper. He seems to have a quick brain and movement, but he never really composes himself on the ball and always looks to play the first pass even when there might have been better options if he had taken a touch to compose himself and find a team mate in a better position.
 

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I'm convinced he's been bought as a Pogba replacement for next summer. Give him the season to settle in and then have him take over next season, rather than panic buy in a market where everyone knows we've got the Pogba cash
 

lilcurt

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Ok to all the people that think VDB should be be starting.. who do you drop Bruno or Pogba?

VDB plays as attacking mid and there's no dropping Bruno for me.

VDB will start Wednesday night and I hope he has a great game.
Pogba, easy choice. When was the last time he had a really good game? He plays and comes on based on reputation rather than form. He has obviously been battling Covid and a long term injury last year which have set him back but to not give Donny a chance is silly.
 

romufc

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Having two holding midfielders to do the job of one proper one in midfield certainly isn't helping his prospects of starting....
We started the season with 1 holding midfield player.

Palace H - 14 shots against 5 on target
Brighton A - 18 shots and 5 on taget
Spurs H - 22 shots and 8 on target

Since we changed the formation and played 2 DM's

Newcastle - 7 shots - 4 on target
Chelsea - 6 shots and 1 on target.


This is the reason we have gone to a 2 in midfield, it was clearly not working having only one DM.
Now if we all want to drop Bruno for VDB then its fine, but VDB is not a creator, he makes space for others, so in our team without Pogba and Bruno who is created chances?
 

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Am I the only one who isn't concerned about the Donny situation? He usually comes off the bench and looks sharp. We've played just 5 PL games and 1 CL game. Why is it being portrayed like he's being sidelined or discarded? He's come to a new club and is also just 23. With time, he'll show his worth and get into the team if he deserves it. For the record, I do expect him to start one of our next two games. The only point is that I'd rather have him in the team ahead of James who is as useless as they come.
Nope, I'm not concerned at all, he'll work into the team. It's as if the press - who seem to be pushing this ridiculous agenda - do not understand how football works. Not every player will walk straight into a team. The press & fanbase criticised our squad depth all last season, Donny comes in pretty clearly to strengthen the squad & the manager is getting slated for not throwing him straight into the team. Was there all this fuss when City dropped £40m on Bernardo & £60m on Mahrez and barely played them for ages?

The same idiots would have slated the manager on Saturday if he hadn't thrown Pogba, Cavani and Greenwood on in the second half with us looking for a goal.
 

Abhinav

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We started the season with 1 holding midfield player.

Palace H - 14 shots against 5 on target
Brighton A - 18 shots and 5 on taget
Spurs H - 22 shots and 8 on target

Since we changed the formation and played 2 DM's

Newcastle - 7 shots - 4 on target
Chelsea - 6 shots and 1 on target.


This is the reason we have gone to a 2 in midfield, it was clearly not working having only one DM.
Now if we all want to drop Bruno for VDB then its fine, but VDB is not a creator, he makes space for others, so in our team without Pogba and Bruno who is created chances?
Precisely, I think due to lack of match fitness & poor form of our defenders, Ole had to be pragmatic and start with two holding midfielders. As the team gains sharpness, defenders become more confident, we will start seeing more of Vdb. I think Ole will soon start experimenting with Scott / Fred Vdb & Bruno in the midfield. We can play with multiple combinations but a lot of them only look good on paper and may make us vulnerable against a lot of PL teams. For example, a Matic VdB & Bruno combination is one which should only be played against the poorest of oppositions. My money is on a Fred VdB & Bruno combination that has the potential to give us balance in most of the games. That means that Pogba will have to continue on the bench and that may be a hard call that Ole might have to take.
 

tomaldinho1

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Ok to all the people that think VDB should be be starting.. who do you drop Bruno or Pogba?

VDB plays as attacking mid and there's no dropping Bruno for me.

VDB will start Wednesday night and I hope he has a great game.
Pogba, he doesn't even start for us anymore anyway

VdB can play across the midfield and, unless we're playing an attacking team where I do think the double McT/Fred pivot with Bruno in front is our best bet we should be starting Matic or Fred deep with Bruno and VdB ahead of him. Ole chats a lot about taking risk, playing exciting football and going for goals but he doesn't actually do it. We stick with the same stale old double pivot which only looks good if teams press forward and leave space at the back, there's very little creativity there and it leaves Bruno isolated which is fine against a team like PSG who will keep trying to score but not if Chelsea (or 70% of other PL teams) turn up and just sit back for 90mins.
 

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This is due to no preseason in which allows you to try different ideas. Now that every game is important result wise; it is not the time to do it. You have to take it slow. Fix the problem at the present first. We played one dm and it didn’t go that well. So we try 2 dm to fix the problem. At the moment it looks ok so far. The use of VDB will be next problem to fix.
 

romufc

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Precisely, I think due to lack of match fitness & poor form of our defenders, Ole had to be pragmatic and start with two holding midfielders. As the team gains sharpness, defenders become more confident, we will start seeing more of Vdb. I think Ole will soon start experimenting with Scott / Fred Vdb & Bruno in the midfield. We can play with multiple combinations but a lot of them only look good on paper and may make us vulnerable against a lot of PL teams. For example, a Matic VdB & Bruno combination is one which should only be played against the poorest of oppositions. My money is on a Fred VdB & Bruno combination that has the potential to give us balance in most of the games. That means that Pogba will have to continue on the bench and that may be a hard call that Ole might have to take.
I agree with this. However; why would Ole want to experiment anything right now? With the fixtures we have, why would a manager experiment new systems and formations?

1. He is under enormous pressure by the Ole out crowd.
2. We have had a bad start to the season where points are crucial
3. We have conceded 9 home goals this season in 3 games.
 

Alemar

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Other than that I think hes just being given time to settle in and plays in a position with lots of competition.
All other teams start to use their new good players immediately - why is it peculiar of Man Utd that they “need time to settle”?

He uses Daniel James as a starter, instead of playing good players (it may be not VDB, but it may be just a good player instead of James). Currently, the situation is really strange - everyone understands that Ole intentionally uses some subpar players,whereas it is not clear why
 

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Hes cover and we havent needed cover yet. Its really telling how the press have to find a crisis story even when we dont lose so its from Greenwood to VDB. You would never know its 1 loss in 7.
Everybody will play this season. Id say he could start v Arsenal after we rotate from the CL. Hell beat Leipzig and Id say its a good start to the season and the press can calm down.
Its always who doesn't play for us as an easy story and wr fall for it everytime. Itll be Henderson v DDG in 2 weeks if we beat Leipzig and Arsenal, I guarentee it.
Tuazembe soon after that. Its too obvious.
 

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It's likely to be a number of factors. A combination of letting him acclimatise and also the fact he's the new signing so needs to earn the right to get into the starting 11. We also don't know how he's doing in training.

Ole has also resorted to Fred and Scot midfield behind Bruno as during his tenure that's the combination that has been the most balanced and successful. You can't blame him after the defensive horror shows.
 

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We're six games in. Between this thread and Sky Sports asking if DvB regrets his move already says a lot about folks nowadays.
 

romufc

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All other teams start to use their new good players immediately - why is it peculiar of Man Utd that they “need time to settle”?

He uses Daniel James as a starter, instead of playing good players (it may be not VDB, but it may be just a good player instead of James). Currently, the situation is really strange - everyone understands that Ole intentionally uses some subpar players,whereas it is not clear why
So you want VDB to start over Bruno and Bruno on the bench? will that make you happy?

He does not use Dan James as a starter, stop making stuff up. Look since lockdown on how many games Dan James has started?

The reason Dan James has played is because:
1. Martial got sent off
2. We did not sign a winger
3. Greenwood has issues -injury or other issues
4. Rashford played up top.

Who are the winges? Or should we shoe horn players into positions that they are not suited to?

What other sub par players have been used? understand the situation first.
 

VP89

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We started the season with 1 holding midfield player.

Palace H - 14 shots against 5 on target
Brighton A - 18 shots and 5 on taget
Spurs H - 22 shots and 8 on target

Since we changed the formation and played 2 DM's

Newcastle - 7 shots - 4 on target
Chelsea - 6 shots and 1 on target.


This is the reason we have gone to a 2 in midfield, it was clearly not working having only one DM.
Now if we all want to drop Bruno for VDB then its fine, but VDB is not a creator, he makes space for others, so in our team without Pogba and Bruno who is created chances?
We started Pogba in the first 3 games, so your insinuation is that VDB will also be a defensive liability like Pogba is. Whilst VDB has most experience in a 10, he's actually very capable of a box to box role - and his pressing is actually one of his best attributes. I genuinely think he has all the qualities to play in a box to box role but we haven't yet seen him as such.
 

romufc

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We started Pogba in the first 3 games, so your insinuation is that VDB will also be a defensive liability like Pogba is. Whilst VDB has most experience in a 10, he's actually very capable of a box to box role - and his pressing is actually one of his best attributes. I genuinely think he has all the qualities to play in a box to box role but we haven't yet seen him as such.
I don't know what impact Donny will have on this team, I actually cannot tell you that. I have not seen him play enough to give my judgement.

However; I have watched enough of United to tell you this:

Because of how we started the league, yes Ole has to take the blame for playing Pogba instead of Donny at the start because Pogba was not fit. That is the past and it happened.

Ole cannot take another risk playing Donny in that position in this team with the fixtures we currently have, its too big of a risk. I am quite certain that he will experiment once we are past these fixtures.

You cannot blame Ole for not picking him when we have conceded 9 home goals and he chooses to go slightly defensive the next game after being battered 6-1.

He may well have the ability to play that position, he has come through the Ajax system so is adaptable but I am not blaming Ole for not taking the risk at the moment. Once the defence has some more confidence, he will come in.
 

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There's a lot to criticise Ole for but I think this it's still early days in the case of VDB. He'll I'll give the club/Ole the benefit of the doubt and assume they had a plan for him when they signed him.

That's the bit I'm questioning though. Bruno is undroppable, whilst Pogba should/ could also play that position. Signing an extra player there just never made sense to me at all. The only thing I can think is the intention was to move Pogba deeper and that's backfired.
 

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I don't know what impact Donny will have on this team, I actually cannot tell you that. I have not seen him play enough to give my judgement.

However; I have watched enough of United to tell you this:

Because of how we started the league, yes Ole has to take the blame for playing Pogba instead of Donny at the start because Pogba was not fit. That is the past and it happened.

Ole cannot take another risk playing Donny in that position in this team with the fixtures we currently have, its too big of a risk. I am quite certain that he will experiment once we are past these fixtures.

You cannot blame Ole for not picking him when we have conceded 9 home goals and he chooses to go slightly defensive the next game after being battered 6-1.

He may well have the ability to play that position, he has come through the Ajax system so is adaptable but I am not blaming Ole for not taking the risk at the moment. Once the defence has some more confidence, he will come in.
He has some culpability in my opinion because he made changes vs Chelsea that were odd. VDB could have been played over Dan James, who offers nothing, not even a decent outlet for width.

In fact, Dan James was hooked off, and VDB actually came on and contributed positively vs Newcastle where we went on to get the 2nd, 3rd and 4th goal in a quick flurry. After this its fair to expect James to be dropped further in the pecking order, as he continued to show ineffectiveness in the starting XI, but yet he actually started again vs Chelsea. And no one needed hindsight to know that would end badly.

I mean even versus Chelsea there was another weird moment where Pogba was brought on and prioritized as Bruno was cast on the right wing. I didn't get that whatsoever. He could have had VDB brought on to float around Bruno , leaving Bruno in his most threatening position.
 

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Van De Beek is not starting because we have a clown of a manager who only plays one style of football, on the counter.

In a game against Chelsea when you need a goal, Van De Beek is the kind of player you need to open up defences not a marathon runner wannabe Dan James.

I hope Ole is gone as soon as possible because he is not a progressive manager, lacks invention and imagination and Manchester United can do better than this PE teacher stuff.

He is severely under utilising the resources he has, there are so many managers who would killl to have a squad like this and play a system with some organised pattern of play rather than this basic counter attacking football.

We have lowered our standards at United to think this guy can coach a team to a premier league title. If he was sacked today, which team in the premier league would employ him?
Embarrassing post, start to finish. Thank god for the newbie section.
 

Red4Life_#7

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The media and ex Dutch players are making this into something bigger than it really is. We signed him 3 weeks ago!!! He needs time to settle in fgs.
 

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The media and ex Dutch players are making this into something bigger than it really is. We signed him 3 weeks ago!!! He needs time to settle in fgs.
Agreed. I’d rather see him not rushed into the team then come and and have an impact on tight games moving forward. He plays in Bruno’s position so he’s going to have to earn a start.
 

romufc

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He has some culpability in my opinion because he made changes vs Chelsea that were odd. VDB could have been played over Dan James, who offers nothing, not even a decent outlet for width.

In fact, Dan James was hooked off, and VDB actually came on and contributed positively vs Newcastle where we went on to get the 2nd, 3rd and 4th goal in a quick flurry. I mean even versus Chelsea there was another weird moment where Pogba was brought on and prioritized as Bruno was cast on the right wing. I didn't get that whatsoever. He could have had VDB brought on to float around Bruno , leaving Bruno in his most threatening position.
I am not voiding Ole of any culpability because Dan James should not be starting for Manutd IMO.

I am not saying Ole is the best manager or anything, just saying I understand why he makes certain choices.

We as fans have put him under so much pressure at the start to a point where he has gone into a corner and is playing players that will follow his instructions and run around. I get that he may have wanted to sure up the defence for 3/4 games but I fully expect us to have Pogba or VDB in the team once the defence has some sort of confidence.