The [non] use of Van de Beek - Ole's player?

Gordon S

Full Member
Joined
Mar 20, 2018
Messages
1,271
We have like 50 games left to play this season and people everywhere are going nuts?
He as already played about 200 minutes at the start of this season and will play a lot more.
 

Stretender

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Jun 23, 2020
Messages
582
Embarrassing post, start to finish. Thank god for the newbie section.
What is embarrassing are Ole fan boys who think somehow he is a manager good enough to manage Manchester United.

No Manager in the world would play Dan James ahead of Van De Beek. There are better footballers in the United academy than Dan James.

Football is not just about running and counter attack..
 

romufc

Full Member
Joined
Apr 30, 2019
Messages
6,302
What is embarrassing are Ole fan boys who think somehow he is a manager good enough to manage Manchester United.

No Manager in the world would play Dan James ahead of Van De Beek. There are better footballers in the United academy than Dan James.

Football is not just about running and counter attack..
I am sorry but how is being Ole in embarrassing?

He got appointed 18 months ago, he finished 3rd in his first full season.

So you have watched alot of VDB have you? Can you tell me how many times you have watched VDB play on the wing ? Because thats where James was playing, on the wing.

So, in your opinion, who is the manager that would kill for this squad? Remember Jose had the chance.. he flopped.
 

UmbroDays

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Aug 12, 2019
Messages
199
Where did you get 200 minutes from?!

We have like 50 games left to play this season and people everywhere are going nuts?
He as already played about 200 minutes at the start of this season and will play a lot more.
 

TMDaines

Full Member
Joined
Sep 1, 2014
Messages
6,244
I think there’s a fair chance this one ends up badly and this signing just flops. It’s really quite odd. Ole throws new signings straight in he has faith in them. Maguire, Bruno and even AWB were instantly his boys. James too early on.Ole is quite happy to leave you out in the cold if he doesn’t fancy you or views your status as purely a backup.

If DVB couldn’t get much game time at the point of the season when he’s fit and firing after a fuller pre-season, with everyone else feeling the effects of a truncated one, when is he going to play? If the manager prefers Pogba with a C-19 hangover, others such James and Mata when Martial, Greenwood and Cavani are all unavailable, when is he going to prefer Donny? When Daniel James is starting consecutive league games ahead of Donny and is actively a hinderance to the rest of the team as an inside left with no threat inside or width outside, any argument about Donny falls down.

I understand asking for patience, but early signs are not at all promising. I don’t really see Donny starting against Leipzig or Arsenal. It already feels as if his best opportunities might be in the CL if the group is secured surprisingly early. The League Cup only has one more game before Xmas and that is against tough opposition.

Maybe we will back on this thread and laugh as we did with the one about James being the best signing since RVP, but there’s a growing chance we won’t.
 

Volumiza

Full Member
Joined
Jul 13, 2018
Messages
4,602
Location
Somewhere in the middle
No Manager in the world would play Dan James ahead of Van De Beek.
If the position was LW then most managers in the world would. If the position was CAM or CM even then I'm sure Ole would have selected VdB.
 

Stretender

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Jun 23, 2020
Messages
582
I am sorry but how is being Ole in embarrassing?

He got appointed 18 months ago, he finished 3rd in his first full season.

So you have watched alot of VDB have you? Can you tell me how many times you have watched VDB play on the wing ? Because thats where James was playing, on the wing.

So, in your opinion, who is the manager that would kill for this squad? Remember Jose had the chance.. he flopped.
I have watched enough of Van De Beek before he came to United to know that he can play pretty much anywhere on the pitch. He is an intelligent footballer not one dimensional like some of the players we have.

If you think Mata, James or even McTominnay deserve to start ahead of Van De Beek then there is no point in wasting my time debating this.

This is Manchester United, we need to be taking the game to the opponent not sitting back like cowards and expecting Dan James to counter attack over a long ball with no end product.

We are the most expensive squad in the league and it's about time we started acting like it on the pitch.
 

romufc

Full Member
Joined
Apr 30, 2019
Messages
6,302
I have watched enough of Van De Beek before he came to United to know that he can play pretty much anywhere on the pitch. He is an intelligent footballer not one dimensional like some of the players we have.

If you think Mata, James or even McTominnay deserve to start ahead of Van De Beek then there is no point in wasting my time debating this.

This is Manchester United, we need to be taking the game to the opponent not sitting back like cowards and expecting Dan James to counter attack over a long ball with no end product.

We are the most expensive squad in the league and it's about time we started acting like it on the pitch.
Again, can you tell me how many times you have seen him play on the wing? I have never seen VBD play on the wing.

Let me show you. Number of games VDB played on the wing:

16/ 17 - 0
17/18 - 0
18/19 - 0
19/20 - 0

So again, name me 5 games you have watched VDB play on the wing.

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/donny-van-de-beek/leistungsdaten/spieler/288255/plus/0?saison=2016

So what just because we are called Mancheter United, we should be entitled? we have to earn the right to play attacking football.

Shoe honing players into positions is not unfair on the player.
 

spiriticon

Full Member
Joined
Feb 3, 2013
Messages
3,223
I don't know what's real news or what's not real news with United these days. The media is indeed blowing a storm in a teacup.

If Donny is genuinely annoyed and impatient that he hasn't started the first 5 matches of this season then he would be one of those 'me me me' prima donnas with a totally wrong attitude for this club.

I don't think he is that sort of person, so let things take it's natural course.
 

fps

Full Member
Joined
Dec 22, 2018
Messages
4,304
We started the season with 1 holding midfield player.

Palace H - 14 shots against 5 on target
Brighton A - 18 shots and 5 on taget
Spurs H - 22 shots and 8 on target

Since we changed the formation and played 2 DM's

Newcastle - 7 shots - 4 on target
Chelsea - 6 shots and 1 on target.


This is the reason we have gone to a 2 in midfield, it was clearly not working having only one DM.
Now if we all want to drop Bruno for VDB then its fine, but VDB is not a creator, he makes space for others, so in our team without Pogba and Bruno who is created chances?
I didn't say it wasn't working, just that he's not that guy and suddenly there seem to be 3 of them who would be best used in that one spot further up. Will we see Pogba in the two again? Ole just defended him by suggesting he wasn't fit at the start of the season. Perhaps when he's starting further back VdB then gets a lot more time as the Bruno alternate. I don't see Bruno as undroppable, I'm tremendously glad we have him but he seems to be out of gas after 70 minutes (a lung busting effort vs Newcastle notwithstanding).

I'm certainly glad we now have players of his ability as "squad, potentially 1st XI" rather than previous options.
 

crossy1686

Full Member
Joined
Jun 5, 2010
Messages
13,721
Location
Manchester, England
What is embarrassing are Ole fan boys who think somehow he is a manager good enough to manage Manchester United.

No Manager in the world would play Dan James ahead of Van De Beek. There are better footballers in the United academy than Dan James.

Football is not just about running and counter attack..
Seeing as you’ve got all the answers, why don’t you tell us what you would do and who we should appoint instead? It’s really easy to criticise but I doubt you’ve got any answers other than moaning about stuff you know nothing about.
 

Zed 101

Full Member
Joined
Jun 27, 2014
Messages
515
I do not get the press buzz phrase of him being a £40m player as if that should guarantee him a starting place, when £40m is about bog standard to low for anyone we want to sign in midfield, and whilst I would like to see him play in particular instead of Pogba, you have to take into account that of the current Utd midfield excluding McT who is home grown he is the cheapest player (Matic reported to be around £40m too), so by press logic who would they exclude if just going by purchase price?
 

GlasgowCeltic

Full Member
Joined
Jan 3, 2006
Messages
866
I wasn’t sure if I agreed with the many at the time who viewed him as a cheaper and better alternative to Grealish, I don’t see the same level of talent at all, especially in a team almost completely reliant on individuals to create chances. I suspect Ole may also disagree. If his future is as the Pogba replacement it’s a real drop off in quality.
 

bsCallout

Full Member
Joined
Dec 21, 2017
Messages
1,069
All other teams start to use their new good players immediately - why is it peculiar of Man Utd that they “need time to settle”?

He uses Daniel James as a starter, instead of playing good players (it may be not VDB, but it may be just a good player instead of James). Currently, the situation is really strange - everyone understands that Ole intentionally uses some subpar players,whereas it is not clear why
No they dont. Klopp gives his players time to adapt.

Plenty of managers do. Especially when there is the likes of Pogba and Bruno available.

VdB shouldnt just be chucked on the left instead of James to shoehorn him in.
 

bsCallout

Full Member
Joined
Dec 21, 2017
Messages
1,069
I wasn’t sure if I agreed with the many at the time who viewed him as a cheaper and better alternative to Grealish, I don’t see the same level of talent at all, especially in a team almost completely reliant on individuals to create chances. I suspect Ole may also disagree. If his future is as the Pogba replacement it’s a real drop off in quality.
Couldnt disagree more. There is so much to VdB. He has the best movement between the lines out of our whole squad.

Hes barely played for us so youve nothing to base this on, youre just trying to make out you were right in your initial assessment.
 

Alemar

Full Member
Joined
Jul 11, 2017
Messages
3,274
So you want VDB to start over Bruno and Bruno on the bench? will that make you happy?

He does not use Dan James as a starter, stop making stuff up. Look since lockdown on how many games Dan James has started?

The reason Dan James has played is because:
1. Martial got sent off
2. We did not sign a winger
3. Greenwood has issues -injury or other issues
4. Rashford played up top.

Who are the winges? Or should we shoe horn players into positions that they are not suited to?

What other sub par players have been used? understand the situation first.
He shall rather change the tactics, as it is guaranteed that Daniel James will not work. It’s like playing with 10 men. Put extra midfielder, extra defender, play with 2 strikers - there are potential solutions.
 

Ish

Lights on for Luke
Joined
Mar 10, 2010
Messages
25,869
Location
Where fans' expectations are too high
Agreed that it's still very early. I just have a problem with the notion that it's about VDB adjusting to a new league, as he's looked mostly positive when he played.

Every new player is an individual and we shouldn't put them all in the same basket. Some players do need time until they are able to contribute. He doesn't look like one, and also looks capable of giving us something most of our other midfielders can't.
Yeah agreed with that - players adapt and develop differently. I'm just troubleshooting some reasons why he's not had that many minutes yet - just having joined a new team, country and league possibly being the major probable reason - especially as we have a few options in there.
 

NFM

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Nov 25, 2015
Messages
194
Couldnt disagree more. There is so much to VdB. He has the best movement between the lines out of our whole squad.

Hes barely played for us so youve nothing to base this on, youre just trying to make out you were right in your initial assessment.
Its a TEAM game, why this obsession about individual players? If we had a Best or a Ronaldo in the team I could understand some of this, but in general our players are at about the same level. It then becomes a case of tactics, game plans, tiredness, injuries, 'horses for courses' etc etc.
 

horsechoker

Sailor vee, this is a right off.
Joined
Apr 16, 2015
Messages
17,642
Location
The stable
I wasn’t sure if I agreed with the many at the time who viewed him as a cheaper and better alternative to Grealish, I don’t see the same level of talent at all, especially in a team almost completely reliant on individuals to create chances. I suspect Ole may also disagree. If his future is as the Pogba replacement it’s a real drop off in quality.
I agree he would be a drop off in quality but perhaps Ole feels VDB would be better suited to his system. We've long discussed that Pogba seems to be a bit of a square peg in a round hole wherever he plays.
 

romufc

Full Member
Joined
Apr 30, 2019
Messages
6,302
He shall rather change the tactics, as it is guaranteed that Daniel James will not work. It’s like playing with 10 men. Put extra midfielder, extra defender, play with 2 strikers - there are potential solutions.
Last time we played with 10 men we lost 6-1. The last two games where James has played we won 1 and drawn 1.

I am not saying James is good or anything, the team balance matters.

Play with 2 strikers, still needs a winger btw. playing extra defender wont mean VDB gets in either.

So again I will ask you the question, how is playing 2 games mean he is a starter? You have said he plays James as a starter, do you base your judgement on players on a game by game basis?
 

Alemar

Full Member
Joined
Jul 11, 2017
Messages
3,274
No they dont. Klopp gives his players time to adapt.
Chelsea got Werner, Havertz, Ziyech, Mendi, Chilwell, Tiago Silva. Everyone plays, none of them needs time to settle, somehow.

klopp got Tiago Alcantara and plays him
 

Stretender

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Jun 23, 2020
Messages
582
I wasn’t sure if I agreed with the many at the time who viewed him as a cheaper and better alternative to Grealish, I don’t see the same level of talent at all, especially in a team almost completely reliant on individuals to create chances. I suspect Ole may also disagree. If his future is as the Pogba replacement it’s a real drop off in quality.
You have been watching too much of Lee Griffiths mate.

Van De Beek is an intelligent footballer far much better than Grealish and am a Grealish fan.
 

romufc

Full Member
Joined
Apr 30, 2019
Messages
6,302
Chelsea got Werner, Havertz, Ziyech, Mendi, Chilwell, Tiago Silva. Everyone plays, none of them needs time to settle, somehow.

klopp got Tiago Alcantara and plays him
And Chelsea are firing and top of the league right? They came to Old Trafford with this new attacking line up and blitzed us right?

Thiago has 2 appearances in 6.

Jota starts for Liverpool right?

Ferran Torres starts for City right?
 

spiriticon

Full Member
Joined
Feb 3, 2013
Messages
3,223
This is getting to the point where we are building him up so much that when he eventually does play, he is going to disappoint no matter what he does.

Just relax.
 

RedRonaldo

Full Member
Joined
Aug 17, 2003
Messages
11,539
the beauty of him as a player is he is versatile. He isn’t a out and out number 10, he is actually a box to box midfielder (number 8) who is also handy on either wing or as a number 10 of needs be. Exactly what we have needed for so long.

he has played 59 minutes all season, something isn’t right there.
Never seen him playing box to box role for us yet, his short cameo with us was mostly playing just behind our forward, although that's probably because we are chasing the game when we have him on.
 

MadDogg

Full Member
Joined
Apr 24, 2002
Messages
11,256
Location
Manchester Utd never lose, just run out of time
The thing that I remember is that he was adapting bad in those first few months so his performances weren't amazing. VDB, despite a little bit, has showed very promising signs already which is some fans wanna see him more. It's understandable I think
However using it as an excuse to trash Ole is stupid, the season is barely starting
Personally I feel a lot of people are overrating how good VDB has been so far. Some of his appearances have been quite good, but some of them he's basically been anonymous other than a couple of nice flicks around the box.

He's unfortunate that we've had a very difficult start to the season which has probably resulted in a bit less time on the field than he normally would have gotten. But as you said, we've barely started the season so people panicking and making a big deal about it is ridiculous.
 

Jonno

Full Member
Joined
Mar 5, 2010
Messages
7,502
Location
Preston, Lancashire
everything is pointing towards clubs having less money next summer, and no guarantee they would want to spend big on Pogba even if they did
So when fans come back at some stage, when normality slowly creeps back in, you think clubs will be LESS inclined to spend money? Interesting. I'd say its the complete other way round. They literally stopped spending because of the current pandemic, in all likelihood, the pandemic will be coming towards its conclusion in 9 months or so time or at least some sort of projection for it ending. I bet La Liga clubs spend at least double what they did this summer, next summer.
 

croadyman

Full Member
Joined
Mar 9, 2018
Messages
5,422
Even Pogba looked good in Oct. Do you agree with me that Pogba should have trained a few session more before he is ready? Beside, with Bruno and Pogba in the squad, it is a difficult argument to fit in another not so defensive minded player. If Pogba is on the bench, VDB must be behind him. I suppose all argument will disappear when Pogba leaves next season.
My ideal Pogba replacement next summer would be Saul but can't see him coming here if we don't get champions league football. Think he has a good balance of being able to offer us something defensively and going forward.
 

croadyman

Full Member
Joined
Mar 9, 2018
Messages
5,422
Having two holding midfielders to do the job of one proper one in midfield certainly isn't helping his prospects of starting....
Absolutely spot on and that is one of our biggest issues there,that is why this has to be our joint biggest priority next summer
 

Cantonagotmehere

Full Member
Joined
Feb 3, 2015
Messages
1,466
Location
Charm City, MD
I look forward to him getting more time, sooner than later, but the overreaction of the media/fans is sadly unsurprising. It's a knee jerk world, obviously even worse on line.
 

Nikelesh Reddy

Full Member
Joined
Sep 10, 2017
Messages
1,675
Bit weird how he's not really getting a sniff given the tactical flexibility he provides.

Why's he not getting playing time?

Acclimatization issues? Not impressing in training? Long term plan to slot him in? Rotation option?

There was some talk on here of the player being a Woodward signing and not an Ole one. Nothing to think much of from the outset, I'd say, but the games are coming thick and fast now and Van de Beek is proving to be our last option, which is a surprise, or is it?
Right now we look extremely vulnerable at the back,so I think Ole will continue to play with 2 defensive midfielders in front of the back 4 against the top teams.Forget about VDB,even Pogbas finding it hard to get into the team...
 

Amir

Full Member
Joined
Aug 6, 2000
Messages
22,646
Location
Rehovot, Israel
Yeah agreed with that - players adapt and develop differently. I'm just troubleshooting some reasons why he's not had that many minutes yet - just having joined a new team, country and league possibly being the major probable reason - especially as we have a few options in there.
I wouldn't be surprised if this is Solskjaer's way to tell a new player he has to earn his place.

Having said that, Telles already started in the Champions League, so I don't know.
 

Rory 7

Full Member
Joined
Apr 15, 2002
Messages
7,374
Location
A car park in Saipan
I think the form of Mata and his ability to play with Bruno is part of the blocker for VdB. But I fully expect VbB to break into the team.
 

croadyman

Full Member
Joined
Mar 9, 2018
Messages
5,422
Van De Beek is not starting because we have a clown of a manager who only plays one style of football, on the counter.

In a game against Chelsea when you need a goal, Van De Beek is the kind of player you need to open up defences not a marathon runner wannabe Dan James.

I hope Ole is gone as soon as possible because he is not a progressive manager, lacks invention and imagination and Manchester United can do better than this PE teacher stuff.

He is severely under utilising the resources he has, there are so many managers who would killl to have a squad like this and play a system with some organised pattern of play rather than this basic counter attacking football.

We have lowered our standards at United to think this guy can coach a team to a premier league title. If he was sacked today, which team in the premier league would employ him?
Shhhh we can't talk about only playing a counter attack style and no system because that's not allowed to be said in here.

In regards to Donny's lack of playing time I am worried that it's starting to look like when Jose didn't really fancy Mkhitaryan in his first season.
 

gza the genius

Full Member
Joined
May 10, 2009
Messages
4,707
Location
supply and command
I think it was assumed that both Pogba and Bruno would be the starters and that VDB would be backup for both of them. It just so happens that Pogba hasn't been starting so therefore VDB is even further down the pecking order. Plus, Mata started the season very well. His time will come. It is a bit odd though.
 

Grande

Full Member
Joined
Jun 22, 2007
Messages
3,198
Location
The Land of Do-What-You-Will
Christ this is so over the top. We’re 8 games in and it’s October. He was signed as a squad player. Does anyone need reminding that it’s a long season? His time will come.
Yes, it’s pretty ridiculous. Like a paranoid will scrutinize every facial fold and speculate on signs of everyone deep down being against them, and a jealous person spends hours ruminating everytime the lover does not answer the phone immediately, the combination of obsessing fans and tabloid writers looking for the most angled or impulsive people to draw comments from (see for instance Van Basten or Evra) makes for a billion rash thoughts mulled over in the almost complete absence of relevant information.

What can one conclude from a new player not starting the games in the first months at a new club? Not much.