The [non] use of Van de Beek - Ole's player?

Zoo

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The whole thing is downright bizarre, triggered by the annoying Gary Neville being a drama llama as usual, so the Sky camera pans to VdB in the stands - a shot which goes round the world. Then Evra follows suit with his ranting and the English and Dutch media seize on it. I mean it’s just nuts.
 

fps

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He's a quality player and Ole isn't blind or stupid. He'll get his chance, he just has to be patient. Ole is steadying the ship now after the rough start imo and that's why we're seeing Fred and McT. They're doing a good job at screening that back 4. Once we start to get some momentum we'll see more adventurous line ups, and that will include Donny. Can't wait to see more of him, seems like a cracking player.
Very much so. A tough run of games right now where the team needs to fight and scrap and pick up hard points.
 

Rolaholic

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The whole thing is downright bizarre, triggered by the annoying Gary Neville being a drama llama as usual, so the Sky camera pans to VdB in the stands - a shot which goes round the world. Then Evra follows suit with his ranting and the English and Dutch media seize on it. I mean it’s just nuts.
I mean there were already reports out of the Netherlands, mainly quoting one of Donny's mentors who's very influential in Ajax circles, complaining that he's not playing as much as he should and that was during the first few weeks of the season.

Donny's actual agent had a public statement trying to be diplomatic but that sentiment has been gaining traction back home and it's just this week that English pundits have started to speak on the topic. Neville and Evra were just giving their opinions as they're paid to do.

Personally I do wish he'd be introduced earlier in certain games but I also understand Ole potentially wanting to ease him in. Still with him being our main transfer outside of deadline day and our most expensive, it's only natural that there's more attention being paid to him especially when we've been struggling in the league to start the season.
 

Untd55

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It is actually a viable question. We have Pogba and Fernandes who can play the number 10 role (Pogba is not a CM and never will be; he doesn't have the defensive aspect down at all). Why did we sign another number 10 when there were a lot more pressing needs? It is a bit of a strange signing. Had we signed Partey etc. then we could have possibly gone with a City system of Fernandes and Pogba ahead of the defensive midfielder. It would have given us more options.

This summer just turned into a transfer window of improving our depth instead of our first team. The first team should have been improved, and those former first-team players should have been relegated to the bench to improve depth.
 

charlenefan

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It is actually a viable question. We have Pogba and Fernandes who can play the number 10 role (Pogba is not a CM and never will be; he doesn't have the defensive aspect down at all). Why did we sign another number 10 when there were a lot more pressing needs? It is a bit of a strange signing. Had we signed Partey etc. then we could have possibly gone with a City system of Fernandes and Pogba ahead of the defensive midfielder. It would have given us more options.

This summer just turned into a transfer window of improving our depth instead of our first team. The first team should have been improved, and those former first-team players should have been relegated to the bench to improve depth.
Neville lost me when he made that point

Quite rightly he pointed out how

---Pogba---Matic---
------Fernandes------

Does not work but then suggested we should try

---------------Matic---------------
---Fernandes---Pogba---

Erm still the same issue no?
 

Stretender

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What a car crash of a post. Just because we have spunked 40 million on a player so he must play. I can remember so many signings under Fergie, other managers who didnt play immediately after signing.

Why should McTominay not start in front of VdB at a time when our team craves for defensive stability - Ole’s faith in Fred and McT has been vindicated with the performances & results over the last week.
Mata played very well against Newcastle and deserved to start against Chelsea especially when all our other first team attackers other than Marcus are out. Dan James is not competing directly with VdB in the winger role. He had a poor game but Ole tried out something for the shape of the team and it didn’t work - big deal. The fact that Cavani & Greenwood came to replace Mata & James shows Vdb was never considered a winger in the system Ole deployed and rightly so I may add.
I doubt you personally have 40 million that you can spend and not make use of it.

Your post is not car crash but the definition of nonsense.

Just stop posting and insulting other people's intelligence.
 

Untd55

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Neville lost me when he made that point

Quite rightly he pointed out how

---Pogba---Matic---
------Fernandes------

Does not work but then suggested we should try

---------------Matic---------------
---Fernandes---Pogba---

Erm still the same issue no?
I guess you would get the possession further up the field for longer, and give you the attacking option of Pogba further up than we do. Having Pogba further starting so far back doesn't really benefit us at all, since he rarely joins the attack from that position and is not great at defending. He was more effective when he came on against PSG further up the pitch than he has been at any time this season.

Whether it will work, we don't know unless we try it. Really, I would prefer us to try the two DMs and two AMs formation again that we saw against PSG.
 
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1) I don’t think people that talk about DVB being a squad player realise how good he can be.... I’m calling it now and will say he already is a better all round player than Fernandes and has the ability to become one of the best CM’s in Europe. Whether here or at Barca, Real remains to be seen.

2) While I’m not surprised with the press making a big deal out of him not starting yet, I do feel disappointed with Evra and Gary Neville, surely they both know what it’s like and that players are often given time to adjust. Evra’s comments in particular seem like the comments you’d expect from the press trying to destabilise our group

Evra’s comments are particularly confusing because he was signed at a time when we had Heinze, granted Heinze was injured (I believe) but it was still viewed as a waste of money signing.
 
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It is actually a viable question. We have Pogba and Fernandes who can play the number 10 role (Pogba is not a CM and never will be; he doesn't have the defensive aspect down at all). Why did we sign another number 10 when there were a lot more pressing needs? It is a bit of a strange signing. Had we signed Partey etc. then we could have possibly gone with a City system of Fernandes and Pogba ahead of the defensive midfielder. It would have given us more options.

This summer just turned into a transfer window of improving our depth instead of our first team. The first team should have been improved, and those former first-team players should have been relegated to the bench to improve depth.
DVB is not a number 10... he’s a very versatile CM who can play as a 6, 8, or 10. If he and Fernandes were put up for sale tomorrow, I genuinely feel Europe’s top clubs would be more interested in DVB.
 

Abhinav

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I doubt you personally have 40 million that you can spend and not make use of it.

Your post is not car crash but the definition of nonsense.

Just stop posting and insulting other people's intelligence.
Such intelligence on display, need to be careful not to insult it.:lol:
So just because I dont have 40 million lying around I should insult my club manager for not immediately playing a new player who has arrived from another league in a position where we genuinely have competition. And I am the one who is spouting nonsense?
 

Untd55

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DVB is not a number 10... he’s a very versatile CM who can play as a 6, 8, or 10. If he and Fernandes were put up for sale tomorrow, I genuinely feel Europe’s top clubs would be more interested in DVB.
I was just going by what I heard in terms of his goal-scoring and getting in the box supposedly being his best asset. It would seem a shame not to have him up there and waste that ability.

The problem is that he doesn't seem to fit into the current first team, even though he looks really good. It's a weird signing unless we are considering a major change to the midfield.
 

Stretender

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Such intelligence on display, need to be careful not to insult it.:lol:
So just because I dont have 40 million lying around I should insult my club manager for not immediately playing a new player who has arrived from another league in a position where we genuinely have competition. And I am the one who is spouting nonsense?
How long did it take him to play Bruno?

Ole is a fool and if you are his agent you can pass on that message to him.

He lacks common sense as far as am concerned. We laugh at Woodward here but Ole is the same person who told Woodward, Phil Jones was worth a new 5 year contract.

His judgement is questionable, his tactics are questionable and pretty much his managerial skills are questionable.

My point still stands. If you spend 40 million on a player in the summer that player deserves to start matches.

It shouldn't take him 50 games to realise that. He constantly played Pereira and Lingard so am not surprised.
 
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I was just going by what I heard in terms of his goal-scoring and getting in the box supposedly being his best asset. It would seem a shame not to have him up there and waste that ability.

The problem is that he doesn't seem to fit into the current first team, even though he looks really good. It's a weird signing unless we are considering a major change to the midfield.
If we stick to the rigid 4231 and assume that’s the only formation allowed in football then I suppose it can be viewed as a weird signing. Especially if we assume that the roles in the 2 have to be solely grafters with limited technical ability.

But I can see DVB with his intelligence, ability to intercept the ball becoming a deep laying playmaker, very similar to Verratti at PSG. He showed signs of that with one of the goals vs Newcastle.

In that situation can stick to 4231 and have DVB in a 2 besides either Fred or McTomminay.

Or feck it, acknowledge, that we don’t have any great wingers, our best players are central midfielders, and play DVB, Pogba, Bruno and Fred/McT in a diamond
 

Alemar

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Fabinho didn't make a league appearance for Liverpool until 20 minutes from the end in a 1-0 win over Huddersfield in late October - I don't remember anyone asking at all why he wasn't getting games before that
Couldn’t it be because their results were decent enough for supporters not to be concerned about team selection?

If Man Utd were leading the league now, we wouldn’t have been concerned either. But given our results are quite far off, obviously the supporters are looking for the reasons
 

Leftback99

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You can't sign a player for 40 million and not play him. It defies logic.

McTominnay, Mata and Dan James should not be starting ahead of Donny. It's laughable, and just shows the level of manager Ole is.
Even Wolves signed a player for £35m and aren't playing him.
 

Rood

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I have no idea why people think this is such a big mystery

Firstly £35m is not even that much nowadays, its the price of a squad player rather than automatic starter

Secondly, he's here primarily as back up for Bruno and Pogba - at the moment Pogba is not even getting in the team and we are playing 2 more defensive mids so that pushes Donny further down the pecking order.

thirdly, hes young and coming from a lesser league so needs time to adapt

Lastly, its early days in the season and he will get plenty of game time
 

Foxbatt

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Lesser league? Ajax? They have won more Europe cups and CL than Manchester United. They have played in CL semi final much later than United. Ziyech who has come back from an injury probably has played more minutes than DVB in the PL. We played Mata and James ffs.
I agree with other Ops who say that we must change our system. DVB, Pogba and Bruno can play in the same team if we go with 4 midfield and two up front.
 

bsCallout

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Thing is, if he's among other things backup for Pogba, shouldn't he be playing when Pogba isn't? Especially when the other midfielders aren't exactly creative.
Well then the arguement isnt why is VDB not playing, its why isnt Pogba.
 

roseguy64

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I don't think he's so much the Pogba replacement as the insurance against Pogba leaving next summer. Which is obviously worse as its not a pro-active strategy.

I bet the board wanted Pogba to either be sold last summer or to sign a new deal. As it was coronavirus made selling him really difficult and contract talks were put on the back burner.

So either we'll offer Pogba a ridiculous contract to "protect his value" and VdB will end up shafted. Or we'll lose Pogba for free next summer and VdB will have to put up with a season with a lot less football than he'd like. Either way, shit situation caused by shit management.
We won't lose Pogba for free next summer. I can guarantee that.
 

roseguy64

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VDB is not Fred and Fred was started ended up not being up to it when he joined

It’s just insane to start Dan James, and Mata over VDB and Greenwood. A guy who gets you a goal every 2 games
No it isn't. Greenwood wasn't fit enough to start a game.
 

roseguy64

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Lesser league? Ajax? They have won more Europe cups and CL than Manchester United. They have played in CL semi final much later than United. Ziyech who has come back from an injury probably has played more minutes than DVB in the PL. We played Mata and James ffs.
I agree with other Ops who say that we must change our system. DVB, Pogba and Bruno can play in the same team if we go with 4 midfield and two up front.
Yes the Dutch league is a lesser league.
 

Rolaholic

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Maybe but Ajax is as good as us at least now.
Yea funny enough VDB might be our most seasoned player in the Champions League outside of older veterans like DDG, Cavani, Pogba and Matic :lol:

Also has had big performances against elite opposition during the knockout stages
 

MyOnlySolskjaer

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Dramatic thread, he's almost a certainty to start against Leipzig. If he impresses, he'll start again. Took Tuanzebe one game to show the club that he's a serious contender to be in the XI.
 

sammsky1

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Yes the Dutch league is a lesser league.
One the thing to remember is that Dutch League ended last May, whereas our guys have played 20 games since then. So Im sure of his match fitness or form when he joined. Whilst Donny is a technically superior player, he has massive adjustments to make with new inter team relationships and style of play, much higher intensity league re-aquiring form, fitness and momentum. Lets not forget how log in took Fred to make these adjustments.

He also entered during a shitstorm of unacceptable defeats so we suddenly found ourselves in mini crisis of MUST WIN games, where squad rotation went out of the window. And all these are high energy pressing games in which Ole believes he needs his Mc-Fred double pivot, instead of a single destroyer with two baller players in front of him.

Let's get through til next international break, when we will play a lot more 'weaker teams' who will use a low block, and that's when I can see Donny getting his proper introduction into starting successive games, and he can start to make his case.
 
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cyril C

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My ideal Pogba replacement next summer would be Saul but can't see him coming here if we don't get champions league football. Think he has a good balance of being able to offer us something defensively and going forward.
We have already bought Pogba's replacement - VDB. Can't have too many AMF, particularly when 2 of them end up on the bench.
 

patty123

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he has massive adjustments to make with new inter team relationships and style of play, much higher intensity league re-aquiring form, fitness and momentum. Lets not forget how log in took Fred to make these adjustments.
Really, really, come on man, you're not really going to use that are you, given how easy Bruno has blown that lame excuse to death.

I just hope it's more like you said with your first sentence of the second paragraph.
 

sammsky1

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Really, really, come on man, you're not really going to use that are you, given how easy Bruno has blown that lame excuse to death.
I just hope it's more like you said with your first sentence of the second paragraph.
Bruno is an outlier.
Just in the history of Manchester United with new players from another country, most had serious issues adapting immediately. Same is true eveywhere. I think its valid, and made doubly difficult by the panic SOS we've also had to overcome.
 

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Lesser league? Ajax? They have won more Europe cups and CL than Manchester United. They have played in CL semi final much later than United. Ziyech who has come back from an injury probably has played more minutes than DVB in the PL. We played Mata and James ffs.
I agree with other Ops who say that we must change our system. DVB, Pogba and Bruno can play in the same team if we go with 4 midfield and two up front.
PL is the 2nd best league, Dutch is 10th - surprised that anyone would even argue the fact its a lesser league
https://www.uefa.com/memberassociations/uefarankings/country/#/yr/2020

Ziyech has played less mins than VdB

Let me know if there are any other facts you want to be corrected on

A diamond could be interesting but I cant see Ole utilising it
 

MadDogg

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Surely it proves what every fan thought in the transfer window. We signed Van De Beek who we didn’t need yet we didn’t buy a winger who can play straight away. Thus we have to start James but have Van De Beek sat on the bench. The logic was a joke then and a joke now.
Realistically we needed both a winger and cover for Bruno. That's why Grealish made so much sense and in hindsight it's a huge disappointment that Villa stayed up and priced him out of a move. VDB may go on to be a very good player for us but there's no doubt that Grealish would have made a much bigger impact straight away.
 

Foxbatt

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PL is the 2nd best league, Dutch is 10th - surprised that anyone would even argue the fact its a lesser league
https://www.uefa.com/memberassociations/uefarankings/country/#/yr/2020

Ziyech has played less mins than VdB

Let me know if there are any other facts you want to be corrected on
Ajax has played in the Semis of the CL much later than us. They are a very good side. Or were last season before the sold most of their players. Dutch players from their top clubs can go and play in the Serie A or tha La Liga without trying to be "broken in". We are not talking about a top club in England anyhow. There is no way DVB is a lesser player than some of the players currently playing or starting for United. Ziyech played more than DVB in the two matches he played. DVB may have over all more because he has been coming on as a sub all the time. He has even scored a goal for United.
 

MadDogg

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You can't sign a player for 40 million and not play him. It defies logic.

McTominnay, Mata and Dan James should not be starting ahead of Donny. It's laughable, and just shows the level of manager Ole is.
Players coming from weaker leagues are often not thrown straight into a team, or struggling if they are. Fabinho cost the same and didn't play a single premier league minute in the first eight games. Did that defy logic? Or was it a player who was thought would go on to be worth 40m but wasn't quite ready immediately? Just from ourselves we've seen the likes of Lindelof, Fred, Evra and Vidic off the top of my head who struggled at first before significantly improving and showing their real level. VDB's old team-mate De Ligt struggled a bit when he first joined Juve. It happens all the time.

McTominay is a defensive midfielder at a time our defence was massively struggling. Mata is a playmaking right winger who has been our best player so far this season. I shouldn't even have to explain why they are starting ahead of him right now and it's ridiculous to complain about it. James is the only one that might be debatable, but Ole wanted to keep some kind of width and according to the stats VDB has played a grand total of 7 minutes on the left in his entire career back in 2015.

VDB not playing games immediately doesn't mean he won't get games. He'll get his opportunities.
 
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lex talionis

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There’s no serious argument that Donny isn’t good enough to start for United or that for some reason he needs to be handled with pima cotton gloves. What’s done is done but it’s pretty obvious that Donny is a cut well above Fred and Scott and even this version of Pogba. But that’s behind us now and Ole can choose to continue wasting Donny’s time or he can he can give him a proper chance to show what he’s got.

It’s not as though we were brilliant against Palace, Spurs and Chelsea, none of whom are miles ahead of us in quality. I don’t know much about RB Leipzig but it seems pretty safe to say that this is an opponent, much like the the clubs I mentioned above, that Donny should be able to cope with. Just as there’s a risk to acting hastily, there’s also a risk in acting too cautiously. Give Donny a proper chance FFS.
 

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Ajax has played in the Semis of the CL much later than us. They are a very good side. Or were last season before the sold most of their players. Dutch players from their top clubs can go and play in the Serie A or tha La Liga without trying to be "broken in". We are not talking about a top club in England anyhow. There is no way DVB is a lesser player than some of the players currently playing or starting for United. Ziyech played more than DVB in the two matches he played. DVB may have over all more because he has been coming on as a sub all the time. He has even scored a goal for United.
None of this changes the fact that hes a young player coming from a weaker league so it's only normal that it takes a bit of time to integrate

The only player he should start ahead of last match is James, but then DvB is not a winger.

He'll get his chance and then it's upto him to perform
 

Foxbatt

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None of this changes the fact that hes a young player coming from a weaker league so it's only normal that it takes a bit of time to integrate

The only player he should start ahead of last match is James, but then DvB is not a winger.

He'll get his chance and then it's upto him to perform
He has. In his first league match he scored the only goal we scored.
 

Marcus

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The only logical reason DVB is not playing is because Ole wants him to watch and get familiar with what his teammates are doing in match situations. He is a player who links play together. If he gets a chance to watch his teammates more, he will be able to anticipate the runs they make, the preferred way of receiving the ball. So when he gets his chance he will be even more effective. I am impatient to see more of DVB too, but I can see this logic. Doing one-touch with teammates you are not that familiar with can cause moves to break down and possession to be lost.
 

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None of this changes the fact that hes a young player coming from a weaker league so it's only normal that it takes a bit of time to integrate

The only player he should start ahead of last match is James, but then DvB is not a winger.

He'll get his chance and then it's upto him to perform
I agree with this. There are plenty of times to get the starting playing time. Like what you said it will take bit of time to integrate and gel with his new team mate. Although I probably prefer to see him playing than James. And I think if Ole wants to, he can also use DvB in diamond or even playing him next to striker pair with Martial since Donny has good movement, work rate and linking with players very well which suitable to Martial playing style as well against RB Leipzig. Either way, he will get his chance.