The Oasis Draft - QF: Pat_Mustard vs GSTQ

[Physiocrat]

Pat_Mustard

GSTQ

Pat_Mustard Tactics

Formation: Zona Mista

Tactical Summary: Moderately deep defensive line with a predominantly counter-attacking style.

- An all-time great ball-playing CB (with 2 assists in a World Cup final to his name) Bobby Moore in the sweeper role, flanked by two quick and physically powerful foils to mitigate against his relative weaknesses.

- Thuram, Facchetti and Bruno Conti are all arguably the historical gold standards in those niche RB/RCB, LWB and one-man flank RW roles in the Zona Mista.

- Good upgrades defensively from our first round match: Schmeichel is probably an improvement, albeit marginally, on Dasayev, and Forster is the top-notch stopper I wanted from the start to partner Moore and Thuram.

- Souness drops back to the holding midfield role in place of Hierro, as his superior pace and mobility will be important in mitigating against Sir Bobby's substantial influence. van Hanegem comes into the team as a B2B midfielder and injects both huge quality and another playmaking avenue.

- Baggio will be in his element as our creative fulcrum, and has played some of his best football in similar setups for Juventus.

- Keegan and Charles are both perennially underrated in draft circles but they should form a complementary and dangerous partnership. Keegan's career-best form came playing off big, powerhouse CFs like Toshack and Hrubesch, with Charles sharing their strengths but belonging to an altogether higher tier.

GSTQ

Tactics - Play attacking football while dominating the possession and proceedings

Statutory warning - The team is not an exact replica of Ajax 1995 team. While we do take inspiration from that team, some things have been tweaked based on the opposition.

Player roles -

Edwin Van Der Sar - A Goalkeeper who is well suited to the setup as he played in Ajax 1995 team

Pietro Vierchowod - Fast rugged defender, ideal for a team playing so aggressively in attack. He was quite adaptable as a defender due to the rare combination of speed, physicality and reading of the game. By the end of his career, Vierchowod operated as the sweeper in a three man defense. He famously said in 1999: “I used to be much quicker than everyone else – now I’m just as quick as them". While he was a decent passer, his main emphasis would be on defending.

Ruud Krol - Perfect for the role of the left centre back. Contributes with the build up from the back as well.

Tarcisio Burgnich - Perfect for the role of the right centre back. Emphasis only on defending

Valery Voronin - Defensive midfielder cum extra defender. Other main contributor along with Krol in building up from the back

Paul Breitner - Plays the role of a left B2B with endless energy rampaging forward and back. Off the ball, he shall be tracking Conti outwide (if he starts of course)

Pavel Nedved - Attacking right central midfielder with brilliant work rate. Contributes all over the midfield and wider areas on the right side of the pitch. His dribbles and runs forward should be a menace considering the number of options he has to pick up . If Facchetti dares to foray forward, he will track him.

Bobby Charlton - Plays the role of the attacking midfielder who is the fulcrum of the attack. When one of Breitner/Nedved goes out wide to help off the ball, Charlton drops deeper into their position to make up the numbers. Ideal for the role.

Dragan Dzajic - The left wing forward of the team who shall stay wide waiting for the ball to be won and fed to him. So many players in attack to link up and work with. Considering he was a great free roamer, the team dynamics in attack should be very difficult to predict for the opposition

Jimmy Johnstone - The man who gave Facchetti a nightmare in a European Cup final no less. His job would be the same as Dzajic.

Sandor Kocsis - The centre forward of the team. Expected to not just contribute with goals but linkup with the huge number of attackers behind him.

 

[Physiocrat]

@Pat_Mustard @GodShaveTheQueen

Game on!

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Cheers @Physiocrat and good luck @GodShaveTheQueen

Jimmy Johnstone - The man who gave Facchetti a nightmare in a European Cup final no less.

This isn't really accurate. Burgnich was assigned to man-mark Johnstone, and after a bright opening 10 minutes or so, Jinky wasn't really a standout performer in the match. The attention Inter paid to Johnstone and Bobby Lennox, and moreover their incredible negativity after going 1-0 up, did open up all sorts of space for Auld and Murdoch to run the game though, and for the Celtic defenders to join the attack, with Gemmill ultimately winning the match.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

This isn't really accurate. Burgnich was assigned to man-mark Johnstone

It wasn't like Burgnich was playing as the left back, he mostly tracked Jinky when he moved centrally as Johnstone roamed a lot in the Celtic team.

Below are a few instances of Facchetti being involved in Johnstone's moves and not doing well.

This is from the first 30 minutes of the game I managed to create earlier, I will try to create more from the rest of the game once am back on the laptop.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

One thing no one can question from that game is it completely stopped Facchetti from going forward.

Here with Johnstone on the right and Nedved moving out wide when Johnstone moves centrally, I can see Facchetti ending up with little to no offensive output like in that game.

That is not good news for the Zona Mista IMO

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

I doubt even Pat would disagree with Facchetti's attacking contribution being negligible here.
He did have Johnstone face against Facchetti before

It was tough to leave him out but we wanted to field our two proper wingers Joya and Johnstone to keep Carlos Alberto and Facchetti pegged back.

It's always an issue when you're facing Facchetti that your winger is liable to be seen as neutralised while Giacinto gallops up the wing at will when they're on the attack. I don't doubt that he was a fantastic defender, and I don't doubt that he was a brilliant attacker too, but I do question whether he fulfilled both roles against quality opposition as often as supposed.

He stuck to his thankless defensive task doggedly vs Jairzinho in the WC 70 final but barely got forward. Against Johnstone's Celtic in the 1967 European Cup Final he man-marked Lennox while Burgnich picked up Johnstone. They did a good job defensively of mostly containing the wingers, at the cost of their attacking contribution and also allowing Celtic to pulverise them through the overlapping Gemmill and through the centre of the pitch

We've not actually claimed that he was better than Facchetti. We're just challenging the perception that Facchetti will both keep Johnstone quiet and provide a meaningful attacking contribution.

To get back to this, it's obviously not a controversial take in itself. The point I'm getting at is what does Facchetti having the upper hand over Johnstone actually mean in practical terms? Does it just mean he neutralises/minimises Johnstone's attacking impact? If so does it require a man-marking job as he generally carried out against top wingers, or can he do it in a modern, zonal system? Does he neutralise Johnstone and still get forward effectively, and if so to what level?

Most managers on here have benefitted at some stage from Facchetti's superman status (I know I have), but I don't think the evidence really supports his current status of being a Maldini-esque presence in defence and a Marcelo in attack, all in the same match against all-time great wingers.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Hopefully @Pat_Mustard doesnt get pissed off with me taking the help of his old posts

In the game I quoted from above, Moore was also playing alongside Facchetti.

Johnstone has turned in a scintillating display against Moore's England too:

Scored 2 goals and had many great moments in the game.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Hopefully @Pat_Mustard doesnt get pissed off with me taking the help of his old posts

Nah, I'd just started typing a post admitting that I've been firmly on the other side of the fence regarding Facchetti's superman status in draft matches, much as I'd like to benefit from it here.

BUT, I'd also point out that Herrera set up incredibly negatively even by his standards in that 1967 final, in part because of the absence of key players Luis Suarez and Jair, which would be the equivalent of me losing van Hanegem and Bruno Conti. And as no one bothered to find me an example of Facchetti actually continuing to attack rather than solely defending vs a renowned winger then I had to fecking do it myself now

Randomly popping up at centre-forward against Real Madrid in 1967, with Amancio as the opposition right winger:

Scoring vs Real Madrid in 1966, again with Amancio as his direct opponent:

So while I can't argue that he's going to be camped out in the opposition half with Jinky in his back pocket as well, I hope he can pick his moments to support the attack. We've also got van Hanegem who was a specialist at attacking the left channels, Keegan who will tirelessly work the flanks, and Baggio who loved attacking down the left. In a counter-attacking set up against a back three we'll have enough about us to exploit that area of the pitch.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Firstly as I forgot, good luck @Pat_Mustard

BUT, I'd also point out that Herrera set up incredibly negatively even by his standards in that 1967 final, in part because of the absence of key players Luis Suarez and Jair, which would be the equivalent of me losing van Hanegem and Bruno Conti. And as no one bothered to find me an example of Facchetti actually continuing to attack rather than solely defending vs a renowned winger then I had to fecking do it myself now

I think Celtic's dynamic attack had a large say in that too. If one watches the full game for the first time, they'd hardly be able to pin point which player was playing where in attack. The overloads also a likely reason for Burgnich and Facchetti both covering large parts of that side.

I have tried to replicate that here with an uber attacking team knowing full well that my team would be well in control of the possession for large parts of the game.

While Lennox and Jinky linking on that side is an overload, the inside and outside right channel here would have Jinky, Nedved and of course Kocsis who contributed a lot to the buildup from the inside right zones.

So I wont be surprised with a zona mista manager setting up similarly against this team as well.

Anyways, I don't want this game to be just about Jinky and Facchetti as that would be a cheap route of pressing the same point again and again into boredom. Hopefully the neutrals have a say on it.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

We've also got van Hanegem who was a specialist at attacking the left channels

A few thoughts on the front 3.

Herrera's zona mista was not setup like this usually with 3 forwards.

Below is how it looked.

------------Striker------------
------------Mazzola-----------
-----Corso------Suarez----Jair
------------Bedin---------------

It had a two attackers setup (Mazzola and a striker). A hardworking right winger.

Then it had 3 midfielders. Bedin the DM, then one creative play maker (Suarez) and then Mario Corso who tucked in and then ran the left channels.

Corso could afford to make his runs into the left wing channels because there were 2 players still left in midfield.

Here in a 2 man midfield, against a 4 man midfield in the opposition, I don't think Hanegem can afford to leave the central areas. If the ball is lost, that would leave acres of spaces to run into.

P.S: Not to say you are replicating it to the dot, but a lot of the principles apply.

Keegan who will tirelessly work the flanks, and Baggio who loved attacking down the left.

I'd welcome that move to be honest. There arent too many bodies in attack and moving them away from goal would work well in our defensive scheme of things

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Herrera played the Catenaccio system though rather than the Zona Mista, which was a 1970s/80s reaction by by Italian tacticians to the Total Football revolution. Italy 1982 would be a closer template for my team:

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Herrera played the Catenaccio system though rather than the Zona Mista, which was a 1970s/80s reaction by by Italian tacticians to the Total Football revolution. Italy 1982 would be a closer template for my team:

That team didn't have a Mario Corso-esque figure from midfield though to drift into the left channels and rightly so for the reasons I mentioned above.

That leaves the central area open against a crowd which more or less restricts Van Hanegem's forays there.

I don't know much about Graziani from the picture, but that looks like a significant left wing presence so that the width responsibilities don't fully fall on Cabrini like with Facchetti here.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

That team didn't have a Mario Corso-esque figure from midfield though to drift into the left channels and rightly so for the reasons I mentioned above.

That leaves the central area open against a crowd which more or less restricts Van Hanegem's forays there.

I don't know much about Graziani from the picture, but that looks like a significant left wing presence so that the width responsibilities don't fully fall on Cabrini like with Facchetti here.

I'll tear myself away from this thrilling Utd match to make a few points on this.

I don't see our team shape falling apart just because van Hanegem advances down the left channels when we're in possession. Firstly, he doesn't need to be reaching the corner flag to provide some width. Secondly, if we're having a period of sustained possession our defence will naturally be pushing up to reduce the gaps between the lines, and in general we're likely to have plenty of bodies behind the ball even when we're attacking.

Graziani was much more striker than winger, yet looking at Italy's goals in 1982 does show that the ability of a proper striking duo to create their own width gets underrated. Rossi provided a peach of a cross for Graziani's header vs Cameroon, with Graziani in turn foraging down the right wing and sliding in Rossi for his goal vs Argentina. I posted this in the last match but it shows Keegan's ability at attacking down the wings:

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

I don't see our team shape falling apart just because van Hanegem advances down the left channels when we're in possession. Firstly, he doesn't need to be reaching the corner flag to provide some width.

Of course he doesn't need to reach the corner flag. But going outside will leave the centre with Souness all alone. If you think you can afford it, he is welcome to the touchline. We'll just enjoy the open midfield when the ball is won.

Secondly, if we're having a period of sustained possession our defence will naturally be pushing up to reduce the gaps between the lines, and in general we're likely to have plenty of bodies behind the ball even when we're attacking.

The cattenacio and zona mista were never about sustaining possession. They were about getting the ball as soon as possible to the other end. Atleast that is how I always saw them.

 

[Physiocrat]

This is a really close game. Pat's defence is exceptional and Keegan on the counter could cause problems for Burgnich.

GSTQ's attack is really good although maybe doesn't have the goals that you might want against that defence. Dzajic and Kocsis's record is very good but Charlton didn't score that many goals per season when he moved away from the left wing and Johnson didn't score much either.

GSTQ's best route to goal will probably be a high press caused turnover when Pat is attacking which will give them much more space in which to operate.

Voronin will make it hard for Baggio and Vierchowod is also a good fit for Charles.

These are my scattered thoughts

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

GSTQ's attack is really good although maybe doesn't have the goals that you might want against that defence. Dzajic and Kocsis's record is very good but Charlton didn't score that many goals per season when he moved away from the left wing and Johnson didn't score much either

Breitner and Nedved have goals in them too.

That is 6 scorers on the pitch.

 

[Physiocrat]

Breitner and Nedved have goals in them too.

That is 6 scorers on the pitch.

In Serie A Nedved only hit double figures once and averaged about 7.5 goals a season. This version of Breitner didn't score much. That was the later Bayern version who hit all the goals.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

In Serie A Nedved only hit double figures once and averaged about 7.5 goals a season. This version of Breitner didn't score much. That was the later Bayern version who hit all the goals.

Of course you can't expect everyone to contribute with 20+ goals a season.

We have some who scored for fun and then a lot of players who chipped in with a fair amount in all channels of the pitch. I personally wouldn't call that lacking in the goals department.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Anyways, I won't be online for a long while, so here is one last stat before I go.

Baggio had close to 1 in 2 games goal scoring record in Serie A.

Against Vierchowod, Baggio scored only 3 goals in 19 games.

Vierchowod himself scored 1 in 19 of those games

 

[Physiocrat]

Of course you can't expect everyone to contribute with 20+ goals a season.

We have some who scored for fun and then a lot of players who chipped in with a fair amount in all channels of the pitch. I personally wouldn't call that lacking in the goals department.

That's fair. You do have a decent goal threat distributed around the front 6. My concern is a relative one - can you score past that deep defence with Big Pete behind them, that's my concern.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

That's fair. You do have a decent goal threat distributed around the front 6. My concern is a relative one - can you score past that deep defence with Big Pete behind them, that's my concern.

Even Baresi's Milan leaked goals and lost multiple times in the same season against Van Gaal's similar Uber attacking Ajax including in the Champions League Final

I'll be optimistic that my attacking lot would break Pat's fantastic defense as well.

We'll have a lot of time on the ball and plenty of opportunities to create chances and take shots.

Exactly what is needed against that lot. Hopefully we sneak a few in.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

The cattenacio and zona mista were never about sustaining possession. They were about getting the ball as soon as possible to the other end. Atleast that is how I always saw them.

They were both direct systems, Catenaccio especially, but any team worth their salt is going to have some variation in their play. The likes of Moore, Souness, van Hanegem and Baggio aren't going to treat the ball like a hot potato if the quick counter isn't on, and Keegan and Charles both have brilliant hold-up play to bring others into the game.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

They were both direct systems, Catenaccio especially, but any team worth their salt is going to have some variation in their play. The likes of Moore, Souness, van Hanegem and Baggio aren't going to treat the ball like a hot potato if the quick counter isn't on, and Keegan and Charles both have brilliant hold-up play to bring others into the game.

They will be pressed off it if they hold it for long. Hence these systems usually have a brisk transition into the final third.

GSTQ's best route to goal will probably be a high press caused turnover when Pat is attacking which will give them much more space in which to operate.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

They will be pressed off it if they hold it for long. Hence these systems usually have a brisk transition into the final third.

Are you adopting a high press tactic?

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Going to spew out some random stuff in case I'm not around in the final stretches of this match.

Graeme Souness:

There was a bloodbath of a match between Gio and Enigma a few years back with a lot of discussion regarding Souness as the deepest midfielder. I expected to be a talking point here so here's an all-touches video of Souness vs Benfica:


I don't expect anyone to watch the full thing but the basic context is that Sampdoria were trailing on aggregate, then winning on the night and chasing the equaliser in the match overall, explaining why the last few minutes are just Benfica defending for their lives and Sampdoria are pumping it into the box. The earlier parts are a good insight into how Souness went about his game though - very much a DM/DLP type who wanted to pick up the ball in deep areas and start attacks from deep, with the B2B stuff being a secondary part of his game.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

I focused on Keegan last match and he got a surprisingly good reception, but Charles is another one that doesn't generally set pulses racing among drafters here. There's so little footage bar goals:


and @harms all touches video of his only full match online:


but his reputation is immense. A top-notch goalscorer in England and Italy, despite often being moved as an in-game pawn between CF and CB for both Juventus and Wales.

I tend to glaze over a bit when people really long paeons to players so I'll just link these articles:

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2004/mar/02/newsstory.sport3

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2004/feb/22/sport.comment1

• Jack Charlton: "John Charles was a team unto himself. People often say to me, 'Who was the best player you ever saw in your life?', and I answer, probably Eusebio, di Stefano, Cruyff, Pele or our Bob - but the most effective player I ever saw, the one that made the most difference to the performance of the whole team, was, without question, John Charles. He could defend, he could play in midfield, he could attack. He was quick, he was a very, very strong runner, and he was the greatest header of the ball I ever saw. His power in the air was phenomenal."
• Jimmy Greaves: "I were picking my all-time great British team, or even a world eleven, John Charles would be in it."

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Are you adopting a high press tactic?

Firstly, football was played even before the Klopp era. I see every press is likened to a high press these days

I have extra bodies in attack and midfield with a 3 man defense. We can press at will especially against a deep defensive setup.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Since there is no neutral interest in the game, let me end my arguments with this.

Football games are not won by just keeping the ball out. Even the best of defenders can only guarantee a draw.

Tactically, we have made their left flank void of width, we have overloaded the midfield, our narrow defensive setup is perfect for their narrow attack.

I simply cant see how they can score more than us here.

 

[2mufc0]

Since there is no neutral interest in the game, let me end my arguments with this.

Football games are not won by just keeping the ball out. Even the best of defenders can only guarantee a draw.

Tactically, we have made their left flank void of width, we have overloaded the midfield, our narrow defensive setup is perfect for their narrow attack.

I simply cant see how they can score more than us here.

Not sure about that, even in the most defensive setup his front 3 have the quality to make a goal out of nothing.

I'm on the fence on this one both very good teams.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Not sure about that, even in the most defensive setup his front 3 have the quality to make a goal out of nothing.

I'm on the fence on this one both very good teams.

I don't say they might not score. But I cant see them out scoring us.

I have mentioned the 3 places on the pitch where I have a crystal clear advantage

1. His disfunctional left flank
2. The midfield overload
3. His narrow attacks falls straight into my narrow defense

I honestly don't see where he has an upper hand or advantage over my team. Not in any aspect.

This without even considering all the possession we shall have.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

his front 3 have the quality to make a goal out of nothing.

Just on this.

I rate John Charles but I wouldn't say he is someone who could make a goal out of nothing.

While Baggio can, his record against Vierchowod is abysmal. 3 goals in 19 games.

 

[harms]

1. His disfunctional left flank

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

What's funny mate?

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

A few more real world encounters -

John Charles vs Burgnich

Played 3 games against each other. Charles scored 1 goal and Burgnich scored 1.

Burgnich's team won 2 games and drew 1. Charles was never on winning side against Burgnich.

Even the great Juve team of Charles/Sivori playing at home couldn't beat Burgnich's Palermo (played with a similar 3 man defense and 5 midfielders) against a similar Juve team of 3 forwards.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

1968 Euros Semifinal

Moore's England vs Dzajic's Yugoslavia

Yugoslavia won 1-0 thanks to a Dzajic goal scored right beside a helpless Moore

 

[harms]

What's funny mate?

Well, it isn't. Like at all.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Well, it isn't. Like at all.

Really insightful. Thanks.

 

[harms]

Really insightful. Thanks.

I really don't know how you san call his left side dysfunctional unless you don't accept anything rather than a fullback - winger flank as an option. It's an absurd critique. It's one thing to state that you might have an advantage there (nothing wrong with that), the other is to say what you did.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

I really don't know how you san call his left side dysfunctional unless you don't accept anything rather than a fullback - winger flank as an option. It's an absurd critique. It's one thing to state that you might have an advantage there (nothing wrong with that), the other is to say what you did.

Think you don't know the difference between unfunctional/ non-functional and dysfunctional

Definition of unfunctional - not functional

Definition of dysfunctional - not operating normally or properly

If you think it will operate normally, I guess real world evidence matters very little.

Or you just wanted to mock which is fine I guess.

 

[harms]

If you think it will operate normally, I guess real world evidence matters very little.

The only real word evidence that is relevant in this discussion is Jinky vs Facchetti, which is fair enough. The rest doesn’t really influence the left wing situation much, where Pat has 4 players capable of going out wide.