The Oasis Draft - QF: Sjor/harms vs Jim Beam

[Jim Beam]

I would usually back off, but there is no way, here or in any universe that their middle is better then mine.

Totti is shit? Vote for sjor/harms
Ribery picture is funny? Don't mind it
Brehme?!?! They have a GOAT left back, go for it

But, otherwise.

 

[Jim Beam]

Sack harms, sell sjor!!

 

[Physiocrat]

Just seen the Bessonov video and one of the Deschamps vids. Bessonov seems a tidy and versatile player although in that video he only really had one one-on-one with Barnes and Barnes won and England hit the bar with the header from the cross. The Deschamps video confirmed what I already thought about him - plays the simple ball well and has some passing range as well as being a mobile DM. I'm not sure though he would play enough one touch stuff or be on the same wavelength as Xavi for that to really work that well. This might be a lack of imagination on my part however.

 

[Synco]

@Šjor Bepo @harms

Do you play pressing? If so, could you say a little on how you approach it?

 

[harms]

@Šjor Bepo @harms

Do you play pressing? If so, could you say a little on how you approach it?

Obviously. It's basically this (take not that Schweiny is also starting):

The best feature of Spain’s game was their pressing. Germany played superbly against England and against Argentina, and the quality of those performances should not be forgotten or understated after this defeat, but Loew’s men found themselves up against an entirely different challenge in midfield today. England’s pressing was awful whilst Argentina’s wasn’t properly integrated, but Spain did it amazingly well throughout. Germany’s two central midfielders were denied time and space on the ball and weren’t able to play the killer passes they had done so well in this tournament. Whereas against England they had 3 v 2 in the centre of midfield, today they were down 3 v 4 when Iniesta came inside, and they struggled to work the ball into the final third.

Germany seemed disjointed between the midfield and attack. Miroslav Klose and Lukas Podolski saw little of the ball in build-up play – and not once in the entire game one complete a pass to the other, which sums up how much Germany struggled in attack. Mueller was also missed – Trochowski had a decent game, but is simply not the same type of player as Muller, who more naturally linked up with Klose and made direct runs towards goal. There was less movement and interchanging of positions, and Klose found it difficult against Pique and Puyol.

http://www.zonalmarking.net/2010/07/07/spain-1-0-germany-2010-world-cup-tactics/

 

[Synco]

Very hard to call.

pro Sjor/harms:

I watched the Kopa & Greaves vids from the compilations thread, and I must say I can imagine them rather well in a pressing/possession system. Kopa looks a bit too much of a solo dribbler, but he shows some direct short passing as well. And dribblings are still an important tool in a possession setting.

Pressing against Beam's CBs can hamper his buildup. They are no mugs on the ball, but might struggle to get the ball to Beckenbauer as swiftly and easily as desired. Cech won't be much help either. Immediately limiting time and space for Beckenbauer is also not the worst idea. Schweinsteiger/Brehme/Robson are great as secondary outlets for Beam's buildup, but overall advantage Sjor/harms imo.

Not sure about the defensive reliability of Beam's wingers, but I'd have to speculate here.

pro Beam:

I agree that Xavi will be good, but not Barca-good in this system. Passing and ball retention won't be at the same level, and I see Sjor/Harms' team playing in a more generic (albeit possession) style. Beam's combative midfield might do well against the ball.

Beam's midfield seems perfect for Beckenbauer, as does Totti as a link up partner for Beckenbauer and the B2Bs. What I've seen from Finney, he likes to cut inside to score, so he'll connect as well.

 

[harms]

I watched the Kopa & Greaves vids from the compilations thread, and I must say I can imagine them rather well in a pressing/possession system. Kopa looks a bit too much of a solo dribbler, but he shows some direct short passing as well. And dribblings are still an important tool in a possession setting.

Also keep in mind that this wasn’t peak Kopa. Going by his World Cup games, he was more precise with his dribbling and passing. But yeah, he loved to have the ball at his feet as much as possible.

 

[Jim Beam]

Also keep in mind that this wasn’t peak Kopa. Going by his World Cup games, he was more precise with his dribbling and passing. But yeah, he loved to have the ball at his feet as much as possible.

Would Hazard be an appropriate comparison in terms of playing style? From the footage I saw, can see similarities.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

congrats Jimbo <3

@Synco here is peak Kopa

 

[Jim Beam]

congrats Jimbo <3

much appreciated Dumbo <3

 

[Šjor Bepo]

much appreciated Dumbo <3

i love you too.

 

[harms]

Schweinsteiger/Brehme/Robson are great as secondary outlets for Beam's buildup, but overall advantage Sjor/harms imo.

By the way, I sincerely hope that Brehme won’t help them, otherwise we would’ve subbed him!

 

[harms]

much appreciated Dumbo <3

You're a fraud and our team was miles better, if we'll play 10 times, we'll win another 9. One team tried to play football and the other one hoped for a miracle.

Also, I'm not sure why the grass on the pitch was higher than it should've been @Physiocrat

I'm sticking with the Xavi theme until the very end

 

[harms]

Would Hazard be an appropriate comparison in terms of playing style? From the footage I saw, can see similarities.

Yeah, looks quite comparable. Kopa was a significantly better playmaker though.

 

[Jim Beam]

You're a fraud and our team was miles better, if we'll play 10 times, we'll win another 9. One team tried to play football and the other one hoped for a miracle.

Also, I'm not sure why the grass on the pitch was higher than it should've been @Physiocrat

I'm sticking with the Xavi theme until the very end

So, it can tickle Deschamps, Tigana, Xavi, Kopa, Ribery and the rest of your midgets. Nice theme you had there.

Btw. I was dead sure you'll win with another draw. Thanks for the kind words.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

 

[Jim Beam]

 

[harms]

So, it can tickle Deschamps, Tigana, Xavi, Kopa, Ribery and the rest of your midgets. Nice theme you had there.

If the grass is high enough, we can use it as a hiding tactic against Kohler & Bergomi.

Can you spot Xavi in this picture?

 

[Physiocrat]

You're a fraud and our team was miles better, if we'll play 10 times, we'll win another 9. One team tried to play football and the other one hoped for a miracle.

Also, I'm not sure why the grass on the pitch was higher than it should've been @Physiocrat

I'm sticking with the Xavi theme until the very end

 

[harms]

(the answer)

 

[Jim Beam]

Shame you saved the best for after the bell. That's a vote worthy right there.

 

[Synco]

By the way, I sincerely hope that Brehme won’t help them, otherwise we would’ve subbed him!

Oops, understood that just now. Brainfart.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Way too much quality difference between the teams. Fair result.

Don't like the use of Finney and Czibor.

Finney's best scoring runs came from left side as a Left forward or left wing forward from what I read.

Czibor again could do a functional job but not the best option there.

If they switch flanks, I think it would have been a bold brilliant move.

 

[Physiocrat]

Way too much quality difference between the teams. Fair result.

Don't like the use of Finney and Czibor.

Finney's best scoring runs came from left side as a Left forward or left wing forward from what I read.

Czibor again could do a functional job but not the best option there.

If they switch flanks, I think it would have been a bold brilliant move.

Have you a source about Finney's scoring runs being from the left? I thought they would have been better from the right as I'm pretty sure he was left footed which is why he preferred the right as he could cut in more.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Have you a source about Finney's scoring runs being from the left? I thought they would have been better from the right as I'm pretty sure he was left footed which is why he preferred the right as he could cut in more.

I don't have it handy but am sure about reading it at multiple places.

His best goal scoring came in a free role as a left supporting striker. Talking of the seasons where he scored 20+

From the right, he looked way more of a creator to me based on what I have seen.

 

[Jim Beam]

Yeah, pretty interested in this one. From what I read he excelled as an outside right for Preston and was left-footed.

Although, by stories he was very good with both.

Matt Busby was asked the same question: "Stan Matthews was basically a right-footed player, Tom Finney a left-footed player, though Tom's right was as good as most players' better foot.

Being naturally left-footed, Tom was absolutely devastating on the right wing.

Will have to check that one a bit more now.

 

[harms]

Have you a source about Finney's scoring runs being from the left? I thought they would have been better from the right as I'm pretty sure he was left footed which is why he preferred the right as he could cut in more.

He was too-footed at the extent that he even took free kicks with both left and right. But from what I've seen, and I've seen probably every minute of Finney's footage available, he definitely played more as an orthodox winger on the right, and more as an expansive wide forward from the left (I'm not even talking about him in central areas).

 

[harms]

Have you a source about Finney's scoring runs being from the left? I thought they would have been better from the right as I'm pretty sure he was left footed which is why he preferred the right as he could cut in more.

Will have to check that one a bit more now.

All of his English career in highlights:

The only full game with him where he starts on the right:

 

[Jim Beam]

Watched both videos before, but now more closer in terms of him cutting in or not.

Looking at that again I can only conclude he was incredibly two-footed as the stories go. He even takes one free-kick with his right and a pretty good cross too. In West Brom game he often goes on the right where there is more space, but the closer he gets to the goal he also did cut-in (especially first half). Basically, defenders wouldn't know where he would go while coming at them.

Most suprisingly, almost everything in that England video comes from the right, despite of the stories he played left, so I can only conclude it wasn't that often.

Quite a brilliant player. Not for sale, mind you.

 

[Jim Beam]

@harms just seen your comment about free kicks and being two-footed.

 

[Physiocrat]

@Jim Beam He played on the left for England since Matthews played on the right.

@harms Thanks for the info. Didn't know he took free kicks with both feet. That's Brehme-esque

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

As a scorer and off the ball runner, its not his England games that do him justice from the left. He went on record to say outside left was his least effective position in his autobiography.

His Preston partnership upfront with Tommy Thompson during the 1956-58 seasons do best justice to his scoring records. They scored close to 60 goals between them for 2 seasons running. No footage of course but it was here where he played the left CF role, that would be closest to the role required in this setup IMO

 

[Jim Beam]

@Jim Beam He played on the left for England since Matthews played on the right.

Yeah, read about that, but am talking just about the video. Most of the goals, assists still came from the right if you look at the whole video.
It's probably the footage available, but it still shows he often did pop or played on the right (and most likely when Matthews didn't play as he was already 32 when Finney started playing for England)

 

[Jim Beam]

His Preston partnership upfront with Tommy Thompson during the 1956-58 seasons do best justice to his scoring records. They scored close to 60 goals between them for 2 seasons running. No footage of course but it was here where he played the left CF role, that would be closest to the role required in this setup IMO

Interesting. First time I heard about him thriving in left CF role tbh.

Noted.

 

[harms]

Yeah, read about that, but am talking just about the video. Most of the goals, assists still came from the right if you look at the whole video.
It's probably the footage available, but it still shows he often did pop or played on the right (probably when Matthews didn't play as he was already 32 when Finney started playing for England)

Yeah, Matthews missed quite a few games at the time and Finney started on the right in those cases.

Interesting. First time I heard about him thriving in left CF role tbh.

It was his last peak when he almost brought Preston the title (runners-up, I think?). He played as a deep-lying forward through the center and got his second FWA Footballer of the Year award.

 

[Physiocrat]

As a scorer and off the ball runner, its not his England games that do him justice from the left. He went on record to say outside left was his least effective position in his autobiography.

His Preston partnership upfront with Tommy Thompson during the 1956-58 seasons do best justice to his scoring records. They scored close to 60 goals between them for 2 seasons running. No footage of course but it was here where he played the left CF role, that would be closest to the role required in this setup IMO

Great stuff

 

[harms]

Don't like the use of Finney and Czibor.

I was surprised by this comment by the way, I was sure that you would be the first to defend Czibor's use here as, by my recollection, you rated him quite highly as more of a wing-forward from the left. I guess I was wrong!

Stoichkov is a great addition to this team though, I think he elevates it to another level.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

I was surprised by this comment by the way, I was sure that you would be the first to defend Czibor's use here as, by my recollection, you rated him quite highly as more of a wing-forward from the left. I guess I was wrong!

I do rate him very high as a wing forward, but he was way more of a hybrid player who would contribute to all facets of the game. To get the best out of him, you always need a target man unlike with someone like Hamrin (pure wing forward). His goal scoring was better than your average winger's but I don't like him at all in a false 9 setup.

Czibor and Finney arent the problem here for me. Both are perfect in the lineup. The problem for me is Totti.

He already has Kaiser, Robson, Bastian all of whom would create. Then there is Czibor and Finney. As someone said in the thread, Shevachenko would have been the way better choice and much more sensible tactically. You need someone to slot them all in for fun and Czibor and Finney are not the guys to do that.

Stoichkov is a great addition to this team though, I think he elevates it to another level.

Looks like he has struck to the false 9 setup which of course looks much better with Stoichkov. I would have preferred if he had gotten a top notch number 9 and replaced Totti there.

 

[harms]

As someone said in the thread, Shevachenko would have been the way better choice and much more sensible tactically.

Yeah, it was me

 

[Jim Beam]

Yeah, I can't play Shevchenko fellas.
And after watching huge chunks of Serie A games in last week or so probably wouldn't in my set-up.

And there is a big difference between how Totti operated in 2005/06 season and 2006/07, both of whom are considered of him playing as a false 9, which is well, just false.

But, more of that in the next game. Aye Pat, will likely go with the expected set-up.