The Oasis Draft - R1: Sjor/harms vs P-Nut

[Physiocrat]

Sjor/harms

P-Nut

Sjor/harms Tactics

Tactics

Modern 442 with a lot of fluidity in possession. Defensive wise we have a great foundation for team to shine with the ball, 9 players that are very good defensive wise with great work-rates so as a unit we will be formidable and backed with a GOAT back 3 with the likes of Yashin, Nesta and Rio Ferdinand.
Offensive wise setup is pretty much build to get the best out of every player apart from maybe Ribery. All players comfortable on the ball, a lot of movement and a great supporting cast should make the best player on the pitch shine - Xavi. Surrounded by great support generals in Deschamps, Ribery and Kopa and players that fit like a glove to the system in Butragueno and Bergkamp should make Xavi on top of his game and when that happens his team will play some brilliant football.

Opposition
Its almost like watching the team we picked in some previous draft, full of personal favorites but when we put it on paper it did look a bit odd. I actually love the midfield where i assume its going to be old version of Scholes at DM with Neeskens and Iniesta in front of him and that would be great against most teams but im afraid the one player they all would like to avoid was Xavi. He will turn the battle upside down and there the team might struggle a bit. Lato with Hidegkuti should be nice but Ginola sticks like a sore thumb, not only quality wise but he doesnt really fit either.
Defence is okay, would prefer a different type of CB partnership but all in all not many complaints. Downside is we have a team that will most likely win the possession battle and if not we actually have some great players for counter as well so you have a possession team full of elite dribblers against a side with Koeman at the back and very little support from the DM position.

P-Nut Tactics

A rework of Peps possession tactics.

Defence

2 CBs capable on the ball to build from the back
Full backs will perform as auxiliary midfielders, never overlapping, but rather coming inside and adding numbers to the midfield. Neeskens and Lahm fit the bill perfectly to enable possession to be rotated.

Midfield

Koeman will drop in-between my two centre backs allowing them to spread wider whilst in possession, and cover for any counter attacks when the full backs are caught tucked in.

Scholes and Iniesta -

Attack

Ginola and Lato will stay high and wide, stretching the defence. They can then use their dribbling and goal scoring abilities to cut inside with the ball at feet.

Hidegkuti will play a false 9 role, dropping deep to link with Iniesta and Scholes, whilst maintaining a high goal threat.

 

[Physiocrat]

Game on!

@P-Nut @Šjor Bepo @harms

 

[Jim Beam]

That 4-4-2 from Sjor/harms looks really clean, like polished. Talking about the picture here.

Neeskens and Lahm fit the bill perfectly to enable possession to be rotated.

@P-Nut Why do you think Neeskens will fit perfectly? Just curious, was first thing that crossed my mind when I saw the team. Would prefer someone else at LW instead of Ginola. Lovely team, otherwise.

Out of all the matches here, this would be the one I would love to see live the most btw.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

good luck @P-Nut
so guess i called it wrong, though i dont understand why would you sacrifice one of your best players like this. Ribery could go from one of the supporting generals to one of the main guys alongside Brehme.

 

[harms]

I think that Agüero's positioning as a number 9 is quite important if you're going with 2 inverted fullbacks. If Hidegkuti will drop deeper, the wingers will have 2 jobs at the same time — keeping width and cutting in. Hence why Pep always carefully chooses his players and adjusts the fullbacks to wingers and vice versa. And Ginola is not the best fit for this in my opinion.

Otherwise it looks great — and more creative than the general 4-3-3 that we've expected. But Neeskens could've played a bigger role.

That's me done in the thread though, @Šjor Bepo will do the arguing.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

so we get the vids out of the way early....

Butragueno vs Koeman
as expected whenever they faced each other 1v1 Koeman had no chance.

was not actually involved much with Koeman though he broke that defence with his of the ball runs time and time again, heavily involved in all 3 goals + would be more if he wasnt robbed by poor decisions from the refs.

Kopa vs Schnellinger


and one about Deschamps, serial winner that is often forgotten, most likely because he is a bit boring to most but what a player...fits perfectly with his crisp passing and selflessness, gives this team balance in possession.
Here we have him having a great game against The King and Roy Keane at Old Trafford.

 

[P-Nut]

That 4-4-2 from Sjor/harms looks really clean, like polished. Talking about the picture here.



@P-Nut Why do you think Neeskens will fit perfectly? Just curious, was first thing that crossed my mind when I saw the team. Would prefer someone else at LW instead of Ginola. Lovely team, otherwise.

Out of all the matches here, this would be the one I would love to see live the most btw.

Neeskens has got the technical ability to play in CM comfortably and with it being a possession based side, that is obviously key.

He combines that with his insane work rate and is comfortable defending out wide right.

 

[P-Nut]

I think that Agüero's positioning as a number 9 is quite important if you're going with 2 inverted fullbacks. If Hidegkuti will drop deeper, the wingers will have 2 jobs at the same time — keeping width and cutting in. Hence why Pep always carefully chooses his players and adjusts the fullbacks to wingers and vice versa. And Ginola is not the best fit for this in my opinion.

Otherwise it looks great — and more creative than the general 4-3-3 that we've expected. But Neeskens could've played a bigger role.

That's me done in the thread though, @Šjor Bepo will do the arguing.

I don't think Neeskens has a lesser role here, than he would have playing CM. Pep's full backs are so key to the way he plays, hence he's just spent another 50m on an upgrade to Walker who people would have as top 2 RB in premier league.

As for the Aguero comment, Pep wanted to replace him and even dropped him for Jesus for quite a while, until it became apparent that Jesus couldn't finish on the same level as Aguero. Hidegkuti will provide more of what Pep wants than Aguero does. His complaints with Aguero were always that he didn't get involved in the build up play enough, here that's not a problem.

With the inverted full backs, in possession at times we'll have 5 players involved in that midfield battle.

Neeskens, Lahm, Scholes, Iniesta and Hidegkuti.

 

[P-Nut]

@Šjor Bepo @harms good luck by the way

 

[Gio]

Like the use of Neeskens - fits his attributes and previous experience. One of those dynamic central midfielders who has pretty much everything you'd need in a full-back, especially in this hybrid role.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Neeskens has got the technical ability to play in CM comfortably and with it being a possession based side, that is obviously key.

He combines that with his insane work rate and is comfortable defending out wide right.

You lose his best attributes(attacking ones) + when defending you miss him in midfield battle because Pep's inverted fullbacks defend as regular ones, they go inside in possession to secure the counters. Even though thats him out of position i dont mind it as i think he would be a damn good fullback but its a waste of his talents.

 

[Moby]

Always like to see a homage to that great Spain team in Euro 2008. Remains to be seen whether Brehme can replicate Capdevila flying up and down the flank.

 

[P-Nut]

You lose his best attributes(attacking ones) + when defending you miss him in midfield battle because Pep's inverted fullbacks defend as regular ones, they go inside in possession to secure the counters. Even though thats him out of position i dont mind it as i think he would be a damn good fullback but its a waste of his talents.

When we watch the premier league do we see Peps full backs as not attacking? Sure they tuck in when the ball is in the other side, but they still get forward and travel with the ball.

I'll accept in sustained possession for your team he wouldn't be in the battle, but I don't intend on affording you long periods of possession. With the team I've got out dominating possession should be the least of my worries.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

When we watch the premier league do we see Peps full backs as not attacking? Sure they tuck in when the ball is in the other side, but they still get forward and travel with the ball.

I'll accept in sustained possession for your team he wouldn't be in the battle, but I don't intend on affording you long periods of possession. With the team I've got out dominating possession should be the least of my worries.

Well, they probably are to your average fullbacks but when you consider how much possession they have and how big the quality gap is between them and 90% of the other teams then not really, they are not that attacking but even if we assume they are, its a completely different ball game between contribution from a GOAT b2b midfielder compared to a very good attacking fullback.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

ohh and speaking of possession we saw it the best with City and Liverpool how important is to have a keeper that fits the style, Schumacher to my knowledge doesnt fit while the reason we went for Yashin very early apart from him being the GOAT was that he is one of the rare oldies that fits.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

think that Agüero's positioning as a number 9 is quite important if you're going with 2 inverted fullbacks. If Hidegkuti will drop deeper, the wingers will have 2 jobs at the same time — keeping width and cutting in. Hence why Pep always carefully chooses his players and adjusts the fullbacks to wingers and vice versa. And Ginola is not the best fit for this in my opinion.

Really good point.

Pep's false 9 Barca teams hardly had inverted fullbacks.

His Bayern/City teams with inverted fullbacks, always had wide staying forwards and a number 9.

Don't think those two mix. I of course did try and mix those too last draft but had the luxury of Gullit and Charlton constantly moving to the wings while the wingers drop in midfield. Here the wingers are out and out wing forwards which makes it different.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

On Neeskens, I do think he is capable of playing the role but it's a role way below his pay grade. As Ibra would say, you don't buy a Ferrari and drive it like a Fiat. I do think Brehme/Ribery might trouble him defensively as well but that is a risk you always run in such a system.

On the other team, I feel the football will be a bit boring. The team has a slow front 6 by draft standards. With Xavi already there, I'd have place only for one of Bergkamp and Kopa in my team.

Will read and vote tomorrow.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

On Neeskens, I do think he is capable of playing the role but it's a role way below his pay grade. As Ibra would say, you don't buy a Ferrari and drive it like a Fiat. I do think Brehme/Ribery might trouble him defensively as well but that is a risk you always run in such a system.

On the other team, I feel the football will be a bit boring. The team has a slow front 6 by draft standards. With Xavi already there, I'd have place only for one of Bergkamp and Kopa in my team.

Will read and vote tomorrow.

i mean i can see the too many cooks argument(though obviously disagree) but too slow? Both Ribery and specially Butragueno are fast + Kopa was pretty light on his feet.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

i mean i can see the too many cooks argument(though obviously disagree) but too slow? Both Ribery and specially Butragueno are fast + Kopa was pretty light on his feet.

Ribery is the only one I'd call fast. Butragueno was definitely not among the quickest strikers from what I remember. Kopa was just about okay too, nothing too quick. It's not a bad thing mind you, I just think the tempo would not be among the fastest.

 

[Jim Beam]

Like the use of Neeskens - fits his attributes and previous experience. One of those dynamic central midfielders who has pretty much everything you'd need in a full-back, especially in this hybrid role.

A bit more curious now. What previous experience makes him such a great fit to play a role of inverted full-back? Is it his role in total football? What other, dynamic CM you see as a good fit also?

Struggling to see it atm if am honest. Although, must say, the amount of time Scholes will come into good shooting position in this system is a thing that's a bit easier to see. At least, for me.

 

[P-Nut]

A bit more curious now. What previous experience makes him such a great fit to play a role of inverted full-back? Is it his role in total football? What other, dynamic CM you see as a good fit also?

Struggling to see it atm if am honest. Although, must say, the amount of time Scholes will come into good shooting position in this system is a thing that's a bit easier to see. At least, for me.

He started his duty career as a right back, before being moved higher by Michels

 

[P-Nut]

The main weakness in my side is the lack of height in my central defence, and neither Bergkamp or Burtra are primed to take advantage of that. Infact both CBs are pretty well suited to what you'd want to deal with the opposition.

Bergkamps main strength was his positioning and interplay. Carvalho is perfectly adept at reading those plays and knowing when to harry him and when to drop off.

We also have Koeman occupying the space Bergkamp would like to drop in to and so if he does drop too deep, Koeman will shadow him out.

 

[Jim Beam]

He started his duty career as a right back, before being moved higher by Michels

Cheers. Forgot about that part of his career (just seen he played it in 1st European Cup win which I watched once because of Vasovic and it totally went over my head).

Makes much more sense now.

 

[Physiocrat]

Really good point.

Pep's false 9 Barca teams hardly had inverted fullbacks.

His Bayern/City teams with inverted fullbacks, always had wide staying forwards and a number 9.

Don't think those two mix. I of course did try and mix those too last draft but had the luxury of Gullit and Charlton constantly moving to the wings while the wingers drop in midfield. Here the wingers are out and out wing forwards which makes it different.

That's my thought too. For this system to work you need CMs who are comfortable outwide.

 

[Gio]

A bit more curious now. What previous experience makes him such a great fit to play a role of inverted full-back? Is it his role in total football? What other, dynamic CM you see as a good fit also?

Struggling to see it atm if am honest. Although, must say, the amount of time Scholes will come into good shooting position in this system is a thing that's a bit easier to see. At least, for me.

I suppose P-Nut's answer above clarifies the experience question.

With any dynamic central midfielder who was good at working into wide areas - pressing off the ball, opening up the game by pulling wide - they share a number of the qualities required by full-backs in certain systems. Neeskens being the prime example, but you can see how the likes of Javier Zanetti, Philip Lahm, Gio Van Bronckhorst, Hans-Pieter Briegel, Rainer Bonhof and Igor Netto have shown top quality in both CM and FB roles. You can imagine how someone like Steven Gerrard with his athleticism, aggression and use of the ball would have made an exceptional full-back, as he briefly showed in the 2005 final, similar to the story of Soren Lerby shifting from CM to LB against Spain in 1984 to steady the ship. I've seen Geremi, Claudio Reyna and Gennaro Gattuso play at right-back because of competition for places and stand out there as essentially another midfielder in a ball-playing set-up. Some others like Michael Essien and Kieron Dyer to mixed results. And then you have your famous playmaking CMs in Paul Breitner and Junior who shone at left-back because they were a little bit more mobile than your average CM.

Inverted full-back is quite a niche role, but you can see how most of the above would be comfortable with such a job with the position spanning the areas in which they played their most effective football.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Ribery is the only one I'd call fast. Butragueno was definitely not among the quickest strikers from what I remember. Kopa was just about okay too, nothing too quick. It's not a bad thing mind you, I just think the tempo would not be among the fastest.

think you need to rewatch Butragueno, he was lighting, specially in first few steps.

The main weakness in my side is the lack of height in my central defence, and neither Bergkamp or Burtra are primed to take advantage of that. Infact both CBs are pretty well suited to what you'd want to deal with the opposition.

Bergkamps main strength was his positioning and interplay. Carvalho is perfectly adept at reading those plays and knowing when to harry him and when to drop off.

We also have Koeman occupying the space Bergkamp would like to drop in to and so if he does drop too deep, Koeman will shadow him out.

can you explain where will Koeman play when my team has the ball? If you want peak Koeman that is going to be a back 5 then? If he is staying in DM role(then i dont get the arrow) he is going to get roasted by the amount of elite dribblers we have in our team + i cant see him doing much in stopping our little triangles all over the pitch.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

more about the "Koeman" role, there were a lot of parallels with Pep's City so lets see who he used there.

Fernandinho and Koeman are completely different and Koeman is not the player that you'd want here (the only real "defensive" player in the midfield three who has to cover a lot of ground and also tackle anything that moves towards him as early as possible). Specially considering the type of opposition he is facing. Not only he is a crappy defender but he isnt mobile enough nor fast enough.
Scrappy was questioning our pace earlier but i reckon the slowest player we have would outpace Koeman.

In the end Pep bought Rodri who isnt the fastest tbf but reckon that was mostly bought for 90% of other games where they are clearly a superior team, for the duels against the rare ones that can go and fight with them i still think he would want someone like Fernandinho there. Might be wrong of course but he was doing an immense job and i just cant see Rodri doing the same nor improving the team in other segments so much that you could go around this.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Almost called it a draw.

Both teams clearly will have good spells on the ball and I personally don't see either greatly equipped to break plays. There would be a lot of onus on the defense keeping attacks out and I'd bank on Rio/Nesta more. That decided my vote.

I like Pnuts team a lot too but I think they ran into a bad opponent stylistically.

On Butragueno I did rewatch some clips after commenting earlier and wouldn't call him lightening in any phase on or off the ball. Tricky with fair speed, yes.

 

[P-Nut]

can you explain where will Koeman play when my team has the ball? If you want peak Koeman that is going to be a back 5 then? If he is staying in DM role(then i dont get the arrow) he is going to get roasted by the amount of elite dribblers we have in our team + i cant see him doing much in stopping our little triangles all over the pitch.

The basic graphic is when you have the ball. When I'm in possession is when the arrow will come in to effect.

Basically defending in a 433 and attacking in 343.

Koeman is ideal for the role as he's comfortable both as a defensive midfielder and also as a CB. Plus how comfortable he is in possession fits the system like a glove.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

The basic graphic is when you have the ball. When I'm in possession is when the arrow will come in to effect.

Basically defending in a 433 and attacking in 343.

Koeman is ideal for the role as he's comfortable both as a defensive midfielder and also as a CB. Plus how comfortable he is in possession fits the system like a glove.

cheers for the response, dont like it personally but wont dwell more into it

 

[P-Nut]

cheers for the response, dont like it personally but wont dwell more into it

No problem it's my weird mind when it comes to tactics

No one ever seems to share my views, but I expect it now. I'm not too great at getting my point across it seems.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

No problem it's my weird mind when it comes to tactics

No one ever seems to share my views, but I expect it now. I'm not too great at getting my point across it seems.

i know how you feel though reckon plenty will like it, personally not the biggest fan of Koeman tbf but if i had him id use him at the back with license to go forward rather then the other way around, its his offensive game that makes him special because as a defender he is bang average.

 

[P-Nut]

i know how you feel though reckon plenty will like it, personally not the biggest fan of Koeman tbf but if i had him id use him at the back with license to go forward rather then the other way around, its his offensive game that makes him special because as a defender he is bang average.

Yeah in possession he's sat deeper allowing him more time and space to spray the ball. I don't need him playmaking in the midfield with Scholes and Iniesta. Sat deeper he's got the time to pick balls through the lines, or if I get pressed in midfield there is an out ball to a top level passer.

 

[Jim Beam]

I suppose P-Nut's answer above clarifies the experience question.

With any dynamic central midfielder who was good at working into wide areas - pressing off the ball, opening up the game by pulling wide - they share a number of the qualities required by full-backs in certain systems. Neeskens being the prime example, but you can see how the likes of Javier Zanetti, Philip Lahm, Gio Van Bronckhorst, Hans-Pieter Briegel, Rainer Bonhof and Igor Netto have shown top quality in both CM and FB roles. You can imagine how someone like Steven Gerrard with his athleticism, aggression and use of the ball would have made an exceptional full-back, as he briefly showed in the 2005 final, similar to the story of Soren Lerby shifting from CM to LB against Spain in 1984 to steady the ship. I've seen Geremi, Claudio Reyna and Gennaro Gattuso play at right-back because of competition for places and stand out there as essentially another midfielder in a ball-playing set-up. Some others like Michael Essien and Kieron Dyer to mixed results. And then you have your famous playmaking CMs in Paul Breitner and Junior who shone at left-back because they were a little bit more mobile than your average CM.

Inverted full-back is quite a niche role, but you can see how most of the above would be comfortable with such a job with the position spanning the areas in which they played their most effective football.

Can see the reasoning in players that excelled in 2 different positions, can even see some of those you mentioned being just fine in such a role.

Still feel it's a bit of waste to play one of the best b2b ever in such a role imo. Despite his previous expirience.

 

[P-Nut]

Can see the reasoning in players that excelled in 2 different positions, can even see some of those you mentioned being just fine in such a role.

Still feel it's a bit of waste to play one of the best b2b ever in such a role imo. Despite his previous expirience.

Remember he'll be tucking in and using that midfield prowess in his passing skills and tackling as well as travelling with the ball. Just rather than doing it from CM to AM he's now going from RWB to CM. That transition could be key in breaking down a side that is pretty stacked through the middle and drag them wide.

 

[Gio]

Can see the reasoning in players that excelled in 2 different positions, can even see some of those you mentioned being just fine in such a role.

Still feel it's a bit of waste to play one of the best b2b ever in such a role imo. Despite his previous expirience.

True that.

 

[harms]

What's the current procedure for a draw? Keepers? Penalties? @Physiocrat

 

[Physiocrat]

What's the current procedure for a draw? Keepers? Penalties? @Physiocrat

Keepers. You win.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Damn, was hoping to nab Rio in reinforcements

 

[harms]

Unlucky, @P-Nut! I wasn't a fan of Koeman in that role and your team would've been much better with someone like Blokhin/Stoichkov on the left, but overall it was a brilliant attempt. Not sure if it would've worked in real life, but 6 players joining midfield was a nice idea & I absolutely loved Iniesta/Scholes combo (understandably).