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Wright is right,Bellingham appears to be a difficult character,but some of the shit Storm he gets is because of his race,same for Pogba,Rashford &Sterling.

It's not just in football, black people are not allowed to exist outside the imagine box created by Western society, they should be 'humble',quiet &of good 'behaviour'.

Black players are not supposed to be difficult,enigmatic,arrogant or flawed. Not that these are good qualities,but they are overlooked,described as 'exuberance',flawed geniuses if white players have the above mentioned characters.

Some of the criticisms and hate players like Rashford,Pogba,Vinicus,Sterling ,Yamal and other black players get are racially motivated even if it's unconscious.Black players don't need to do too much,they just have to be half as 'bad' to get thrice the hate and criticisms.
 
At least Bellingham hasn't had the Ghanian house of parliament ripping it out of him like poor Maguire got :lol:
 
The Purley King said:
I think Wrighty is off the mark with this one (I generally like him and his opinions), an excerpt from his quote from the bbc article:
But if you get a [Paul] Pogba, or a Bellingham, and you get that kind of energy, that does not sit well with people. So someone like Jude, for some reason, frightens these people because of his capability and the inspiration he can give.
He is implying that all people have a problem with it. Which just isn't true at all.
Bellingham is inspirational for sure, but he also comes across as a bit of a twat on occasion. So do a lot of players. He happens to be one that cost £100m and went to Real Madrid, so everything he does will be under a microscope and behaving poorly when subbed isn't a good look even if it comes from a place of general frustration.
If Wirtz for example was kicking off when subbed we'd get similar articles about it (media Liverpool love-in notwithstanding). The fact he mentions Kante as someone who got his head down and did his job (inference being he did that because he was black and wanted to behave and not cause a fuss) is insulting to Kante - some players, including white players, are exactly the same. How on earth would he know what went through Kante's head or what his personality is and why?
I'd say its way more about behaviour than skin colour although I don't doubt a minority of people bring the fact Bellingham is black into their opinion of him.
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Think you've completely missed the mark here. He's not saying kante behaved he way he did because he was black, he was saying kantes personality was palatable so didn't have the same issues someone with a different type of personality would have.
 
SalfordRed18 said:
Think you've completely missed the mark here. He's not saying kante behaved he way he did because he was black, he was saying kantes personality was palatable so didn't have the same issues someone with a different type of personality would have.
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Do racists care about personality?
 
SalfordRed18 said:
Think you've completely missed the mark here. He's not saying kante behaved he way he did because he was black, he was saying kantes personality was palatable so didn't have the same issues someone with a different type of personality would have.
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Yep...

 
SalfordRed18 said:
Think you've completely missed the mark here. He's not saying kante behaved he way he did because he was black, he was saying kantes personality was palatable so didn't have the same issues someone with a different type of personality would have.
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Ok but that is true of everyone white or black.
Act like a bit of a prick from time to time and get called out.
Am entirely prepared to admit I am too old and white to get it fully but where Bellingham is concerned I don’t see a massive racial angle to anything.
Expensive footballers get scrutinised for everything x 1,000. Balotelli was a hero for being a lunatic who bought jet skis, set fireworks off in his house and showed massive generosity and took time out to help people. Maybe I missed it but I don’t recall any systemic racial abuse of him.
Beckham paid £200 for what was essentially a “grade 1 all over” and got the piss ripped out of him just before the Greece game. Plus his wearing a skirt thing.
I’m just not seeing it with Bellingham and again maybe I’m not capable of doing so.
 
The Purley King said:
Ok but that is true of everyone white or black.
Act like a bit of a prick from time to time and get called out.
Am entirely prepared to admit I am too old and white to get it fully but where Bellingham is concerned I don’t see a massive racial angle to anything.
Expensive footballers get scrutinised for everything x 1,000. Balotelli was a hero for being a lunatic who bought jet skis, set fireworks off in his house and showed massive generosity and took time out to help people. Maybe I missed it but I don’t recall any systemic racial abuse of him.
Beckham paid £200 for what was essentially a “grade 1 all over” and got the piss ripped out of him just before the Greece game. Plus his wearing a skirt thing.
I’m just not seeing it with Bellingham and again maybe I’m not capable of doing so.
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Well it's not, not in football and that's the entire point.

James maddison is a known cnut, genuinely point me to an article talking about him in a negative light. Meanwhile Marcus rashford tries to feed starving children in this country and the media (and some on here) would have you believe he's the scum of the earth. But you'll have me believe it's nothing to do with race, despite the fact I've seen the same bullshit with multiple black players at this point.

As you said, you're not a demographic that's going to get it so let's leave it at that.
 
SalfordRed18 said:
"He's one of the good ones"
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Only minorities who stay quiet and out of politics, even "good ones" like Obama who are successful and likeable are deemed problematic i.e. the current wave of US alt-right demagogues like Charlie Kirk was a direct reactionary response to Obama's 8 year term because racists didn't like seeing minorities becoming outspoken and empowered by a popular, well-liked black US president.
 
What was the criticism that Wright is referring to, that Bellingham unfairly received, that wasn't football related, as it was with Beckham?

Looking from the outside, most criticism is about his gesticulating while on the pitch?

I know with Sterling it was his gun tattoo, it was about the cars with Rashford, Pogba's hair, etc.
 
What people are saying about white people having an issue with black players that are cocky, arrogant or flamboyant is obviously true. And I'm not just talking about far right nationalists - they don't want any black players in football full stop. I'm talking about otherwise reasonable people who don't consider themselves racist - it annoys people like that too. The flipside is the excessive praise by people like this of 'humble' black players - essentially players who 'know their place.'

With this last point, Bellingham is particularly important, because he doesn't know his place, so to speak. Remember that his trajectory before all this controversy was towards being the captain, best player and face of the team. This is what he wants, to be the number one guy. And there is no precedent for that with the England team

There is kind of an unspoken desire (probably subconscious with a lot of people), that the main guys, the talismans, should be white. The media particularly appears to be of this belief. There has never been a black player that has occupied this kind of status in the England team, though there have been people who theoretically had the ability to be the star of the team or the main man - cf John Barnes, and we all know what happened to him.

Then you have someone like Sol Campbell, who claimed that if he was white, he would have been England captain. Call Sol delusional (and many have), but he may be right.

Basically, because there have been so many black and mixed-race players to play for England (laudable, of course) it all feels totally equal. But it is not quite. The differences are subtle, but they are there.
 
The Purley King said:
Ok but that is true of everyone white or black.
Act like a bit of a prick from time to time and get called out.
Am entirely prepared to admit I am too old and white to get it fully but where Bellingham is concerned I don’t see a massive racial angle to anything.
Expensive footballers get scrutinised for everything x 1,000. Balotelli was a hero for being a lunatic who bought jet skis, set fireworks off in his house and showed massive generosity and took time out to help people. Maybe I missed it but I don’t recall any systemic racial abuse of him.
Beckham paid £200 for what was essentially a “grade 1 all over” and got the piss ripped out of him just before the Greece game. Plus his wearing a skirt thing.
I’m just not seeing it with Bellingham and again maybe I’m not capable of doing so.
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That's pretty wild. Even if you have 0 interest in italian football, Balotelli was getting racist abuse at many Serie A grounds and threatened to quit football altogether because of it.
He might not have been perfect when he played for Italy but there was a lot of critics/questions if he should even be wearing the italian shirt since he's black and therefore can't be a true italian... Even when he performed for them, there was still racist abuse towards him. Bananas thrown, monkey noises, being compared to King Kong, newspapers frontpage with allusions to his skin color...
So yeah i think you missed quite a bit from 2012 to 2020.
 
Vidooq said:
What was the criticism that Wright is referring to, that Bellingham unfairly received, that wasn't football related, as it was with Beckham?

Looking from the outside, most criticism is about his gesticulating while on the pitch?

I know with Sterling it was his gun tattoo, it was about the cars with Rashford, Pogba's hair, etc.
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I think his behaviour on the pitch is generally exaggerated. They build entire stories and psychological profiles out of throw away gestures that no one noticed. Maybe being in Madrid protects him somewhat from more personal stories.
 
FriedClams said:
Found his comment about England not being ready for a black star to be completely out of touch. Antony Joshua, Mo Farah, Kelly Holmes, all rightfully lauded.
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There are also no openly gay footballers in England’s top level male football (and barely any in top leagues world-wide). And it’s not like England doesn’t have its fair share of openly gay cultural icons.

Not entirely the same thing but the same principles are applicable.
 
I wanted to cite Palmer as an example of a somewhat similar attitude who’s way more cherished by the public. And then remembered that he’s mixed race, which may only back Wright’s point as it’s not that immediately obvious.

Those players can have genuine attitude issues (different ones in case of Pogba or Bellingham). But they are definitely getting overblown compared to similar players with white skin. It’s somewhat similar to Vini even though he has it even worse — he’s genuinely one of the worst-behaved, spoiled and arrogant players alive and also a despicable diver… yet the hate he gets is 10x of a white player that would’ve done everything the same.
 
Sakasaka said:
That's pretty wild. Even if you have 0 interest in italian football, Balotelli was getting racist abuse at many Serie A grounds and threatened to quit football altogether because of it.
He might not have been perfect when he played for Italy but there was a lot of critics/questions if he should even be wearing the italian shirt since he's black and therefore can't be a true italian... Even when he performed for them, there was still racist abuse towards him. Bananas thrown, monkey noises, being compared to King Kong, newspapers frontpage with allusions to his skin color...
So yeah i think you missed quite a bit from 2012 to 2020.
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I know all about that, but I’m presuming wright was talking about English people.
Don’t recall anything like that in the UK
 
SalfordRed18 said:
Well it's not, not in football and that's the entire point.

James maddison is a known cnut, genuinely point me to an article talking about him in a negative light. Meanwhile Marcus rashford tries to feed starving children in this country and the media (and some on here) would have you believe he's the scum of the earth. But you'll have me believe it's nothing to do with race, despite the fact I've seen the same bullshit with multiple black players at this point.

As you said, you're not a demographic that's going to get it so let's leave it at that.
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You can find all sorts of negative pressure on James Maddison of you fancy a Google, just look at the press he was getting when he broke COVID rules...words like 'disgraced' and 'can't be trusted' were bandied around.

Not going to argue that systemic and covert racism affects some news articles, but to use James Maddison as an example isn't the best.
Also not sure Rashford is vilified in the media, he's still written about constantly and majority currently tends to be very positive.

In fact so much so that people on here claim that every article is drip fed by his PR team...
 
Kwabs said:
What people are saying about white people having an issue with black players that are cocky, arrogant or flamboyant is obviously true. And I'm not just talking about far right nationalists - they don't want any black players in football full stop. I'm talking about otherwise reasonable people who don't consider themselves racist - it annoys people like that too. The flipside is the excessive praise by people like this of 'humble' black players - essentially players who 'know their place.'

With this last point, Bellingham is particularly important, because he doesn't know his place, so to speak. Remember that his trajectory before all this controversy was towards being the captain, best player and face of the team. This is what he wants, to be the number one guy. And there is no precedent for that with the England

There is kind of an unspoken desire (probably subconscious with a lot of people), that the main guys, the talismans, should be white. The media particularly appears to be of this belief. There has never been a black player that has occupied this kind of status in the England team, though there have been people who theoretically had the ability to be the star of the team or the main man - cf John Barnes, and we all know what happened to him.

Then you have someone like Sol Campbell, who claimed that if he was white, he would have been England captain. Call Sol delusional (and many have), but he may be right.

Basically, because there have been so many black and mixed-race players to play for England (laudable, of course) it all feels totally equal. But it is not quite. The differences are subtle, but they are there.
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It’s ironic this because I think two people Wright sits alongside every week on the overlap have been indirectly doing this for a while in regards to Foden. Jill Scott and Gary Neville. Their constant obsession with “Foden has to get in the England team”. It’s really strange and I genuinely can’t understand the basis for it.

Guy stunk the place up for a year, he’s had half a century of caps for England and not done well. His style clearly doesn’t suit how England play in general.

Meanwhile players like Eze, Saka, Bellingham have actually carried England for games. England literally do better without Foden. England are in very good form. But those two will sit there anytime an international discussion comes up going on about getting Foden in. Whilst Wright, Keane and Carragher will be sat there scratching their heads.

By absolutely no means am I suggesting Jill or Gary are that way inclined but like you said is their a subconscious to want there to be a white talisman in the team?
 
Weirdly felt a bit bad for Neville. Overall it’s all ridiculous amounts of money but still the club kind of did take the piss with his pay.
 
The Purley King said:
I know all about that, but I’m presuming wright was talking about English people.
Don’t recall anything like that in the UK
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He's talking about english press behavior towards the english players. Same way Balotelli was targeted by the italian press, and the same way arab and black players got targeted by the french press. It's nationalism and dreams about all white squads. They use the cover of international football to spit their vile racism, it would be harder for them to do it towards players from other countries though i'm sure you could find examples.
 
He's right in the way the likes of Sterling and Rashford got unwarranted abuse in the media , particularly the well known tabloid rags.. I dont read them though so hadnt realised the same was happening with Bellingham.. Im sure it would be 10x worse if he had been playing at an english club.

My issue with Bellingham when watching him was just his attitude, Just thought he was an unlikeable arrogant f*cker. Exact same as i think about Haaland. Hadnt thought about it as race, just another lad who knows hes good and walks around with that "im better than you" vibe, almost looking down attitude to other players. Haaland is the worst for that.. Ruben Dias oddly annoys me too
 
lexisonfire said:
Bellingham isn't a shrinking violet and has a bigger personality (hate to use the word alpha unironically) than Rashford, Saka, Sterling, Guehi which is always going to rub some people the wrong way regardless of race. It's oft mentioned he wasn't liked at Dortmund because he shouted at his teammates e.g. Nico Schulz (fyi Schulz was accused of DV so nobody cared too much) but he was in the leadership group and captained the team at 19 so players much older than Jude had to contend with the fact some young English upstart who can't speak German wanted to win at all costs and was upset when it didn't happen. Madrid is a good fit because he's surrounded by bigger names, and his need to win and frustration at his own performances is perceived as healthy rather than petulant.

Rooney and Beckham had their petulant eras of getting infamous reds and still captained England so this is part of the growth process, Jude has to learn to channel his competitiveness more effectively. He has to figure out how to come across as a public personality as he ages into a senior England international; if he's very aggressive on the pitch and doesn't talk to the media off duty he'll definitely ruffle feathers if he ever wants to return to the PL.

It's interesting how Tuchel isn't trying to diffuse the situation and let's the media pressure Jude, let's see if it pays off next July.
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I actually think Tuchel has contributed quite a bit to this Bellingham noise. His method of showing dominance and control over the team which tbf is his right, has given Journos and people license and freedom to start criticising Jude.
This is in stark contrast to southgate's approach, which regardless of what you think of him as a coach/ tactician, worked hard to bring the team closer to country.
 
I'm not sure what racial things have been said against Bellingham and any racism should be condemned by any right minded thinking person. However I think we have to be careful that the lines don't get blurred between criticism and racism. As I said, I don't know who or what was said that sparked this into being about racism conversation because frankly I don't delve into footballers lives outside of what happens on a football pitch, transfers etc.
 
Much better when Jill Scott isnt on. Offers no insight to the conversation and can tell the others just dismiss her
 
Steve Bruce said:
I'm not sure what racial things have been said against Bellingham and any racism should be condemned by any right minded thinking person. However I think we have to be careful that the lines don't get blurred between criticism and racism. As I said, I don't know who or what was said that sparked this into being about racism conversation because frankly I don't delve into footballers lives outside of what happens on a football pitch, transfers etc.
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I don't see why anyone gets confused between the two? It usually becomes quickly apparent if criticism is grounded in discrimination or racism (to a discerning eye) ... somewhat based on the justifications for said criticism. I do often see people get caught up in this argument, maybe out of fear of their criticism being misconstrued as racism, but honestly its not the criticism its what people say around the criticism. When people start criticising certain lifestyle choices or the perceived personality of a person for example, it can often include subconscious dog whistles.

Fair criticism is fine, nobody is saying otherwise as far as I can tell. Some posters should not get so defensive about this stuff....
 
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Does anyone remember Rooney’s petulance?

Nobody really cared and that’s fine. Bellingham’s “poor behaviour “ is Daily Mail manufactured rage that Tuchel is allowing to breed. He should tell them all to feck off and any issue he has with Jude he should deal with behind the scenes. It’s fecking simple
 
caisenma said:
Does anyone remember Rooney’s petulance?

Nobody really cared and that’s fine. Bellingham’s “poor behaviour “ is Daily Mail manufactured rage that Tuchel is allowing to breed. He should tell them all to feck off and any issue he has with Jude he should deal with behind the scenes. It’s fecking simple
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I am not sure about that, I cannot remember it, but he got a lot of criticism when manipulating united to get more money.
 
Hammondo said:
maybe it's not a race thing, and maybe an attitude thing?
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You're missing the point here. It's the fact he's comparing Saka to another black player as if to say "this is the behavior expected of you as a black footballer...speak well and be humble" as if that's relevant to anything they do on the pitch at all. Granted that is a clip I'm viewing out of context but it's exactly that kind of unconscious bias and undertone of racism that Ian Wright is talking about on the show. He's 100% correct.

People need to remember as well he's talking specifically about the media here as well which Neville then highlights afterwards when he talks about the coverage given to Sterling over the years and how he didn't know how to adequately support him.
 
noodlehair said:
Sorry but this sort of thing winds me up. Pogba was criticised because he had an enormous level of talent yet frequently played like a clown. He spent years underperforming at United, was purposely problematic at times under Mourinho, then when he left got embroiled in a voodoo scandal, a family gunland feud, and then got hmself banned from playing football. It is not unfair or racist to criticise a professional footballer who is so unprofessional at football, that they get themselves banned from being allowed to play it.

Moreover, Pogba was actually endlessly defended on here, far more so than I can ever remember ANY underperforming player being defended on here. Probably because people could see that he actually had bags of ability and wanted him to show it more often or more consistently as opposed to writing him off...but, again, he instead chose to leave and get himself banned, from football.

Trying to take justified and normal criticism of a player and paint it as racism based on nothing at all, is dissingenous, counter productive and frankly out of order. It means where there is a genuine instance of a player being unfairly treated due to their race or skin colour, it is less likely to be taken as seriously as it should (which is what generally happens). It also results in accusing people who aren't racist of being racist, based on them doing absolutely nothing wrong, which is the behaviour of a child.

I don't disagree with the general idea that there is still a level of prejudice against black people in football and in general. It is actually quite blatant in the current climate how significant a problem it still is. I don't even disagree that Pogba would have had to battle this the same as any other black player (e.g. Souness and his pathetic obsession with him, the weird fascination with how he chose to dress to watch games, etc.), but there is no linking this with him getting perfectly valid criticisms for his on field performances, that are no different from those directed at any other player. Literally every Man Utd player constantly gets slated on redcafe and in the media the second they hit a patch of poor form. Often the most talented playrs get the most stick.

The Bellingham situation is different in that he probably does merit a bit of fair criticism for a drop in performance levels, but what is happening within certain (predictable) elements of the media is straying beyond that, and definitely does need to be called out. It also shouldn't be left to Ian Wright or other black players to fight these battles. Managers, pundits and players in general should be brave enough to call out and shut this down as a collective IMO. .
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So your assessment is different. Cool, thank you.

I don’t agree, and never agreed, with the extent of the dismissal of his performances anyway. I am if the view that purely on performances alone, if he looked different, they would have been perceived differently. I think his last couple of years were poorer, especially with injuries - but he was still one of the best in the league for his first few years but was never discussed as such.

Also, for much of your dismissal and your being ‘wound up’ - criticism of Pogba was absolutely NOT limited to performance analysis, and that is revisionism in the extreme. It was underpinned by a narrative concerning attitude, hair, dancing, unprofessionalism, dressing, jewellery and similar. It’s complete fabrication to now pretend that this did not happen.

The above fundamental and potentially even subconscious issues formed the foundation of any performance analysis. It’s always easier to then dismiss performances, as the condemnation of performance likely helps to validate the sentiment of dislike for most people, who are far more comfortable within themselves if they can convince themselves that their issue is no more than the fact that Pogba isn’t playing well enough. In order to overcome this handicap - the performances would have to be so completely undeniable to a ridiculous level. Thus goes the old adage that we (black people) are all taught by our elders as youngsters that you ‘have to work twice as hard to get what they have’.

Players like Phil Foden are viewed through a different lens. A lens in which any time he DOES do something good, it is used as confirmation of just how brilliant he is, and validates that being the underlying sentiment about him. For Pogba, his lens is when he does his own brilliance - it is used as justification for his dismissal and criticism, because if only he did THAT multiple times every game , we’d have no problem with him. The result of that is that players like Foden and Grealish only need to occasionally come to the party and do something impactful every now and then in order to maintain their reputations. A player like Pogba’s brilliance is forgotten by the very next game. Often within the game! I can’t count how many MOTM performances which were analysed in his post match thread as ‘was brilliant in the first half, but had 10 minutes where he looked like he couldn’t play football in the second half’ or words to that effect. We’re doing minute by minute, touch by touch. These are impossible standards. There was a game in the Euros where France went out to Switzerland, and I can’t honestly say that Pogba probably dropped an all-time great performance. Truly outstanding, creating chance after chance, scored a great goal. Then he got tackled inside the opponents half and they went and put a few passes together, beat a couple of men and score and the caf was overjoyed. People were piling in because they had seen the validation they needed. It simply would not have happened with Pedri.
 
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CassiusClaymore said:
You're missing the point here. It's the fact he's comparing Saka to another black player as if to say "this is the behavior expected of you as a black footballer...speak well and be humble" as if that's relevant to anything they do on the pitch at all. Granted that is a clip I'm viewing out of context but it's exactly that kind of unconscious bias and undertone of racism that Ian Wright is talking about on the show. He's 100% correct.

People need to remember as well he's talking specifically about the media here as well which Neville then highlights afterwards when he talks about the coverage given to Sterling over the years and how he didn't know how to adequately support him.
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Alright ok my point is probably made poorly.

My worry is that all criticism can be labelled as you are describing. It happens, what happened with Sterling is a good example, but there are legit criticisms of Bellingham.

Also the idea that the country is not ready for a black superstar is pretty stupid.
 
I should also add I think there's some crossover here as well with playing for United in some cases. Our players have always gotten the most shit in the press simply because it shifts papers/gets clicks.
 
Hammondo said:
maybe it's not a race thing, and maybe an attitude thing?
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What does hair colour and earrings have to do with anyone’s attitude?

Did you ever hear anyone ever speak the attitude of Raul Meireles, who had a body full of tattoos and various extravagant hairstyles like mohawks? With black players like that, they always ‘think too much of themselves’, or ‘has to back it up if he’s going to do his hair like that’.

Foden went to the Euros a few years back with a full dyed blonde hairdo. He was out of the team after the first match. Nobody ever said he needs to be less flash and ‘get his head down’ and focus on getting in the team. When he did come on and make the smallest of contributions, that was it - all praise validated.
 
Rozay said:
What does hair colour and earrings have to do with anyone’s attitude?

Did you ever hear anyone ever speak the attitude of Raul Meireles, who had a body full of tattoos and various extravagant hairstyles like mohawks? With black players like that, they always ‘think too much of themselves’, or ‘has to back it up if he’s going to do his hair like that’.

Foden went to the Euros a few years back with a full dyed blonde hairdo. He was out of the team after the first match. Nobody ever said he needs to be less flash and ‘get his head down’ and focus on getting in the team. When he did come on and make the smallest of contributions, that was it - all praise validated.
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I do not keep up to date with all this stuff, it is not something that interests me, but isn't Bellingham being criticized for his complaining at being subbed off and for being lazy?
 
Hammondo said:
maybe it's not a race thing, and maybe an attitude thing?
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I'm sure there is a lot of unfair criticism levelled at black players, but with Bellingham, I would just imagine Beckham, Shearer, or anyone else really, behaving in the same manner, and they'd be criticised and rightfully so. The guy is incredibly entitled, arrogant and has such negative energy. A top player and very immature.
 
Agree with Wright and Craig Hope is a to**er. However it doesn’t mean one can’t complain about his attitude. Sometimes, Bellingham comes off as a cnut. I don’t think that has to do with race in this case. Others might have other motives though.
 
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