I thought the decline was the reason they won. They are shit and would have got relegated in 1999 right?
The PL is in decline
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
Hahaha. So well said
All of them are world class players. You just seem to glorify the past a bit too much.
Neuer has a shout at being the best goalkeeper of all time and Lewandowski is the best pure striker of the last decade with numbers that your former "worldclass players" of the 2000s like Eto'o, Henry, Drogba, van Nistelrooy etc. can only dream of.
Kimmich is also absolute world class and a bonafide top-5 player in the world currently.
Van Dijk has been the best CB of the last 3 years and generally played at an exceptionally high level.
Mané has also been a worldclass player for the last few years, as has been Salah.
English football is in decline yet a team that struggled to finish 3rd in the Premier League last season has just had convincing wins over a CL finalist and semi-finalist. Not to mention England has had 2 finalists in 18/19, and 1 finalist in 17/18. Thats decline. Football heritage.
Your reasoning for including City in that statement is their recent failure in Europe. 10 years ago they finished on 71 points itl and went out in the R16 of UEL to Shakhtar. That 71 point tally was shared by Chelsea who albeit a fluke CL triumph in the following season was NOT by any means a fierceful side at the time. 6th with 64 points in 11-12 with a lobotomised Torres leading the attack.
In reality 2 of the top 6 teams from ten years ago have improved significantly (City and Liverpool) and Spurs should definitely be considered improved as well. Chelsea atm seem equal/slight decline, Arsenal big decline and United significant decline. That's 3/6 teams, not to mention Leicester's establishment as a 60+ point side. The narrative you're pushing is not feasible, just look at how we're doing in CL.
All of these points would have validity to them if Ancelotti didn’t fail at Napoli.
Who won the Europa League last season? Beating two English clubs on the way to the final?
For me, football and almost all high level sport is declining. Athletes are getting better as is sports science but sporting genius is becoming less and less and athletes and tactics more and more. I have a strong belief this comes from a lack of kids having sporting interests or belief.
I expect the level of athleticism to keep going through the roof because of those who are driven and science but I think we'll see far fewer magicians as time goes on. Replaced with system players. Skill is slowly dwindling.
Another pov but a Good article.
I expect the level of athleticism to keep going through the roof because of those who are driven and science but I think we'll see far fewer magicians as time goes on. Replaced with system players. Skill is slowly dwindling.
Another pov but a Good article.
I disagree.
Chelsea, Spurs, City and Liverpool of this season are all superior to their 10-11 counterparts. I would say player for player United are too but they had Fergie then so...
i agree with this, there is all the talk of 'rose tinted glasses' but none of recency bias whatsoever when making these comparisons. I feel that the game just had more interesting 'characters' even 15 yrs ago, of course people who have been watching will argue the same for what it was like in the 70s and 80s too.
Football is declined thanks to commercialization, betting etc.
I agree kids have so very little interest in sports these days that a lot of them who make it are from rich families. From that environment full of people who are more motivated and let's say goal-oriented. At least in my country.
I don't know what your point is, English clubs aren't going to win Europe year in year out, what i said was its only recent seasons English clubs have started to take the competition seriously. This season I'm not saying an English club will win it again, but i will have you a bet an English club will be in the semi-final at the very least. I wouldn't have said that a few years ago because even in the knockout faze English clubs would still put out their reserves, now with a Champions League spot up for grabs it gives the likes of Spurs/Arsenal/Leicester extra incentive to win it.
Also not sure if you are trying to say Sevilla are better/bigger than Manchester United as they knocked us out in the semi-final, Atletico also knocked Liverpool out in the Champions League, are they better than Liverpool? Everyone who remembers that game, knew they took a battering and if they replayed that game 10 times, 9 times out of 10 Athletico would have lost, we witnessed that 1 out of 10.
Put it this way, i can say with confidence an English club will be in the Champions League final again within the next 3 years (strong chance it will be this season), can't say that with any other league. I will also say stick mid-table Everton in the Champions League and they would reach the knockouts at the very least, same with a Wolves, can you say the same about mid-table/lower half cannon fodder teams who play in Spain?
There's a strong possiblity Real Madrid are going out group stage this season.
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Football as a whole lacks flair. Majority of players are just robotic cogs in a tactic
Is that the Glen son of John?
Ginola was on BT Sport or Sky a couple of years ago and he was nearly in tears when being asked about how football has evolved and what that's done for flair players and creativity. You just can't have a Rui Costa, Zidane, Le Tissier, Riquelme, Michael Laudrup, etc, now. Football was so good when teams built through those no.10 flair players. They had freedom to roam, to improvise, etc. Advancements in systems have improved team efficiency no doubt, but in terms of art, aesthetics and entertainment value, systematising has diminished certain creative types.
For sure, I've got two teens, one is on the national kickboxing team, one in the 2nd top division in Fortnite. Guess which one is the popular kid at school? I say this as a nerd myself but technology is really going to be the death of sports. Kids now see how hard it is to get into football etc.. you don't see them outside in housing estates kicking footballs, all the kids in the estate meeting up and playing etc.. (despite almost every estate having an astro-turf and amazing facilities now). The idea of going out meeting 8 or 9 friends and playing a 5 aside in the rain etc.. is dead even to my sporty child, when they all have consoles and laptops etc.. in front of them they don't see the need. Its sad and only going to get worse. The next Messi etc.. could likely be missed because he's too busy sat on his mobile phone.
This probably reads a bit like "Old man yells at cloud" but I just don't see a reversal anytime soon at least not in the wealthier countries where even those who aren't well off by the nations standards own a ton of tech.
As you said better off families are where a lot will come from because of a few reasons.. one as you said goal orientated and motivated (Robin Van Persie had a great video on this talking to his kid), but the other they have the money to bring their kids to a more organised sport and stay involved. The death of playgrounds, parks and kids just using sport for bonding and recreation is a bigger problem than we realize and I think will get a lot worse before it gets better.
As for junior organised sport and the every kid gets a medal for trying, something I despise as it takes the sport out of sport and is not good for them mentally imho but thats another discussion.
I agree inasmuch as regardless of the quality, I'm finding football much less engaging than ever before. I'm actually skipping matches that I would've woken up at an inconvenient time to watch a decade ago.
Nah, regardless of whether this is boomer yelling at clouds or not, it's still true. I'm a neuroscientist and my informed opinion is that mainstreaming technology has mostly been a disaster for society and culture. All available evidence suggests that people are unhappier and unhealthier than they've ever been in the era of modernity. There are many reasons but the rise of ubiquitous tech is a non-negligible one.
Sorry, where do you get this from? It has been proven that fantasy etc actually increases user engagement.
I often see this kind of arguments - the "death" of 10s.
Or something like that. Thing is if we look at football now, those kind of players are still around and valued by teams.
Other than Messi who is quite lazy defensively if we're being honest had key roles in top team, Ozil at Arsenal were actually given chances before he "talked" about the "thing". I would even classify Coutinho and Hames Rodriguez as that kind of 10s. They're doing well (unsure about Countinho now). I'm sure there's more, can't remember now. I would also classify De Bruyne and Silva as that kind of 10s now, Pep made a slight different system to make them work - they still play like 10s even if on paper they're not. It's not like those ex-players stick at the centre only play CAM, they did play other roles and move around eg. Zidane playing CM sometimes and he's in no way lazy, Scholes who is a 10 moved back to #6 and doing well. Griezzmann can also be regarded as 10s, had the system for it previously with Atletico. And then there's the rare hardworking type of playmakers 10s eg. Bruno.
Point is, magicians are still around, not in decline and thus not the cause of why football seems to be declining, imo.
In fact, the growth of system of today actually improved the efficiency of those magicians, albeit in slightly different "positions on paper". Then again, not like past magicians are strictly CAM - the positions they played are all-around here and there. Question is why should team nowadays pamper lazy magicians? It's not like magicians of before are just strolling around - they do worked hard.
everton would not reach the knockouts no way. Tottenham would struggle in CL and they’re nearly too of the league.Last season was up there with 2016 as the worst batch of epl teams in the past ten years
No, it's not. Never in decline.
English football is dire. Shown up frequently.
Such a weird claim, considering the times we are living in.
I think you are right that there are still many players who have flair to their games today - however, my sense is that there is a difference in how much those players are able to express their flair, or perhaps put better - the average player and team today is more fit and drilled than 30 years ago, which means that there is less room for one magical player to dominate a game than there used to be. When the level of all players' quality and fitness increases, it becomes harder for the best players to take over a game, while I think teams are also drilled to work more as a team, which means the best players are less likely to be given a free license to do their thing. That you say 'magicians' are more efficient today is almost certainly true, but I think that efficiency can be counter to what people want to see out of a 'flair' player.
I don't think things are necessarily better or worse today - it really depends what you'd rather see, teams that are driven by great individual play versus more organized teams where one player is less likely to take over and have the run of things.
This is my impression too. There are much fewer "superstars" out there compared to 10-20 years ago.
Topclubs are competing and spending silly money for average talent.
Maybe football in general is in decline? I feel like, at least in Germany, the younger generations are way less interested in watching and playing football than the past generations.
It's the "gaming"-era.
They're more interested in watching other kids streaming themselves playing video games
Football has never been more popular than it is today - more people are watching the game all over the world than was ever possible before. Football is the biggest sport in the world and is getting bigger and bigger - just look at the growth of the woman's game.
There are many, many more 'superstars' than there ever was because any player at a top club in Europe is now a superstar - the media/social media coverage ensures that. I think I may be living in a parallel universe here or something if people honestly think the sport is in decline.
And this, for me, is one of the key issues re this very interesting , and welcome, debate. I have stated on redCafe , many times, that the quality of the PL is declining. The last few years has seen v good teams, performing way, way, way ahead of the rest of the league. The dominance of Liverpool and City, both amounting close to 100pts is a stark reflection of that. I do welcome the competitiveness of the league, but that is down to a leveliing out of the quality, rather than an improvement in the quality in general. Have Chelsea replaced Hazard? Look at us... without Fernandes, where would we be? And is Fernandes one of the best players in the world? Southampton, Wolves, Leeds, Villa, Everton.. all decent teams, with good players throughout... but great teams and great players? And this is the same for much of Europe... yes, there are world class players here and there of course, Mbappe, Neymar.. Van Dijk... Lewandoski but I'm not sure where the true, consistently exceptional quality of players are now. It doesn't help when you have players like Griezmann, and Pogba often on the bench for their respective teams.
Too many average players warrant praise nowadays.. Declan Rice, Winks, Dier, Martial, Lindgard was the darling of England not too long ago... just a few examples. These players are ok, but they aren't going to raise the quality of a league. Look at players from the likes of Puyol, Ramos, Pique, Lahm, Chiellini, Suarez.. these are amazing, consistently amazing players who define their league and wider Euro football. We aren't close to seeing that quality around, generally.
The Prem has some super players, it does, and there are exceptions across Europ, I know this. But generally, the sense of the decline in quality (and spend has increased, wages have increased...!!) has been the case for a while now. Hopefully we will see an emergence of some new players to raise the levels again.
I have to say that the idea the PL is now somehow worse than it was in the 90s or early 00s is absolutely laughable beyond belief. I know we say criticise the post not the poster but it’s beyond stupid to even suggest it
How many posters have actually gone back and watched a game from the 90s? I have, for example, I watched 60mins of Utd vs Liverpool FA Cup Final in 1996 - let me tell you, it was absolutely shocking. The standard from the best two teams in the land was appalling compared to today.
Players that are widely remembered as “world class” (they were at the time) made mistakes that they would be absolutely hammered for today. Real basic stuff.
And the tactics! Don’t get me started on the tactics! Every game was basically two flat back fours sat 10 yards infront of their own penalty area with a vast expanse of about 60 yards between the two and eight players occupying that space. It’s unbelievable how often players pick up the ball in acres of space or can just isolate an opponent one vs one with ease.
I’m sorry but what people are confusing for lowering standards is actually standards getting much higher. Today’s teams almost cancel each other out and it makes most games tumescent and very tactical. The teams are so talented, fit and organised that a lot of the magic and individual brilliance has gone.
I’ll tell you for a fact, the teams in the top four in the PL now would beat the equivalent top four in the late 90s 7-0
How many posters have actually gone back and watched a game from the 90s? I have, for example, I watched 60mins of Utd vs Liverpool FA Cup Final in 1996 - let me tell you, it was absolutely shocking. The standard from the best two teams in the land was appalling compared to today.
Players that are widely remembered as “world class” (they were at the time) made mistakes that they would be absolutely hammered for today. Real basic stuff.
And the tactics! Don’t get me started on the tactics! Every game was basically two flat back fours sat 10 yards infront of their own penalty area with a vast expanse of about 60 yards between the two and eight players occupying that space. It’s unbelievable how often players pick up the ball in acres of space or can just isolate an opponent one vs one with ease.
I’m sorry but what people are confusing for lowering standards is actually standards getting much higher. Today’s teams almost cancel each other out and it makes most games tumescent and very tactical. The teams are so talented, fit and organised that a lot of the magic and individual brilliance has gone.
I’ll tell you for a fact, the teams in the top four in the PL now would beat the equivalent top four in the late 90s 7-0
Completely agree with all this.
I think football as a whole at the moment has certainly declined in terms of top teams and top players.
Nothing to do with us being worse either.
Nothing to do with us being worse either.
Sorry, can't see that.
The United team from 97 - 99 would beat all of the top four, if we take into account developments in playing surfaces, physical management of players etc. Put Beckham in today's prem, at his peak.. or Sheringham etc... or Robbie Fowler, Shearer, Zola, Bergkamp... Viera... I could go on and on.
I am not saying all the teams and players at this time were great, of course not, but were they worst? I'm not so sure.
Football changes every ten years, but it doesn't mean the quality is better. Look at Maradona ffs.
We have to have these debates when we keep things in context, relative to changes in football, on and off the pitch. Who in the Prem could come close to a Matt Le Tissier for example? De Bruyne.. who else?
No team from now is beating the United and Arsenal teams of the late 90’s 7-0, don’t be ridiculous. Also watching a match that was described as shite at the time isn’t exactly the best evidence. Players are more fit now. It doesn’t make them better.
I’m so torn with this. On one hand I’d say that the game is quicker, players are fitter and so on but if you look at some of goals being scored out of pure imagination in the 90’s, early 2000’s, it’s hard not to feel that from a technical standpoint, quality has dipped.
I know that the original post is about the prem but if you think of what players like Del Piero, Ronaldo, Figo, Bergkamp, Le Tiss, Cantona, Zidane etc... Were consistently doing, you just rarely see it now. Even Ginola, Giggs and McManaman effortlessly gliding past folk like it’s a breeze against what I’d say were defenders who learnt the art of defending from day one.
it’s a real tough one to work out whether it’s better or not. On the whole it probably is in terms of higher numbers of competitive teams fighting it out but I feel individuality in players’ quality has dipped.
I know that the original post is about the prem but if you think of what players like Del Piero, Ronaldo, Figo, Bergkamp, Le Tiss, Cantona, Zidane etc... Were consistently doing, you just rarely see it now. Even Ginola, Giggs and McManaman effortlessly gliding past folk like it’s a breeze against what I’d say were defenders who learnt the art of defending from day one.
it’s a real tough one to work out whether it’s better or not. On the whole it probably is in terms of higher numbers of competitive teams fighting it out but I feel individuality in players’ quality has dipped.
You have standout players in any generation based on natural talent. The best players In the 90s, players like Beckham, Giggs, Scholes, Henry, Pires etc...were AS naturally talented as the equivalents today. However, “the rest” on average were nowhere near as good as their equivalents today. What I mean is, the best are still the best in terms of talent, but the average ability of a PL player is astronomically higher
The difference between “top team” then and “top team” now is in the fitness and conditioning of the players but more importantly, the tactics. Teams today would be all over that 90s Utd team, they wouldn’t give them space to breath.
I'm not sure why 90's Premier League football is getting pulled down in this thread, i think it must be from people who never witnessed this era.
Weakest Premier League era for me was early 2000's, the invincibles era and the year Porto knocked United out of the Champions League.
I think modern day football, players are a lot more talented and technical, for people to dismiss this or not see it is like people from previous generations saying "music today is rubbish" but actually when you look at singers and groups today, they are so talented, Justin Bieber i don't like him, but there's no doubt he's a talented guy. One of the reasons for this is due to social media and things like YouTube, talent can be spotted far easier.
I've seen some great talent on shows like XFactor/The Voice who don't make it, but would have stood out 60s/70s/80s/90s.
Yet stick a popular 70s singer on XFactor or a popular group from the 80s/90s, they probably wouldn't even get past boot camp.
Similar story with football and past legends and club icons, would they still stand out modern era or was they just above their time and if they played football modern era would they just blend in and be one of many?
Weakest Premier League era for me was early 2000's, the invincibles era and the year Porto knocked United out of the Champions League.
I think modern day football, players are a lot more talented and technical, for people to dismiss this or not see it is like people from previous generations saying "music today is rubbish" but actually when you look at singers and groups today, they are so talented, Justin Bieber i don't like him, but there's no doubt he's a talented guy. One of the reasons for this is due to social media and things like YouTube, talent can be spotted far easier.
I've seen some great talent on shows like XFactor/The Voice who don't make it, but would have stood out 60s/70s/80s/90s.
Yet stick a popular 70s singer on XFactor or a popular group from the 80s/90s, they probably wouldn't even get past boot camp.
Similar story with football and past legends and club icons, would they still stand out modern era or was they just above their time and if they played football modern era would they just blend in and be one of many?
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Social media is ruining football along with the drive from the broadcasters to force feed it to you as pure entertainment.
It's a professional sport first with professional athletes. Athletes compete to win, not entertain.
It's a professional sport first with professional athletes. Athletes compete to win, not entertain.
Christ, football is getting better due to fitness etc but to completely downplay the 90's sides is ridiculous. 7-0? 
I have watched some old world cups and the quality is just so much lower. People have short memories thinking it was better in the past.
Maybe more fun to watch for you personally, but that is probably it.
Maybe more fun to watch for you personally, but that is probably it.