The reasons for Manchester United's continuing on-pitch decline?

[LawCharltonBest]

When I asked this in 2015, opinions were generally just that Moyes and van Gaal were both poor appointments, made poor signings, but it wouldn't take much to turn that 'blip' around.

But 9 years with absolutely no title challenge at all..?!

A decline was generally expected, but I can't work out why the decline has been so dramatic..

• United still go head-to-head with the top clubs for signings, and United still sign players that they'd sign if they were regularly challenging for titles - Sancho, Varane, Ronaldo.
• Fans are still attending - I believe I read on the Athletic a while back that according to data analysis, United could sell out Old Trafford 2 or 3 times over with the demand for tickets that they have.

So why do you think? A series of poor managerial appointments? Not signing the correct players? Ed Woodward? Or... Fergie... for... some reason?

 

[Tavern in the town]

It always comes down to the Glazers. It’s not just that they’re tight because they have spent a lot in the last decade. It’s just sheer incompetence at board level.

 

[kafta]

Lack of a clear footballing direction due to a commercially driven and totally clueless set of owners and board.

 

[Random Task]

(IMO) Ed Woodward appointing himself DOF and his nieve scattergun approach to transfers is/was the cause for the problems on the pitch today. The merchant banker in him decided that throwing a shitload of money at the problem would eventually fix it. No direction, no thought process, just buy the most expensive players on the market and hope for the best, then pay them an obscene basic salary that crippled the clubs' finances and created a painful wage disparity within the squad.

 

[Trex]

General being clueless in what we want the football team to look like.
Hiring managers who are past it (van Gaal, Mourinho) or not good enough (Moyes, Ole).

 

[dove]

Managers. We couldn't have picked a worse bunch even if we tried.

 

[Valencia Shin Crosses]

1. Poor hiring practices- Moyes was out of his depth, Van Gaal and Mourinho were both outdated, and OGS was again out of his depth but less so than Moyes. We haven't once hired a manager looking to build a team from the ground up around a style of play that is applicable in modern football (high intensity pressing, defending on the front foot, proper spacing between players to create effective progression of the ball from back to front). Look at any top teams and most all of them do these things with various personalized tweaks. We haven't.

2. Lack of direction in transfer market- I actually think we've improved slightly in how we are going about this compared to 5 years ago, but our transfers since SAF left have largely been based on buying players because they are considered "good" without considering why they are good. DvB is a perfect example as a player we paid a good price for that completely went against how the team liked to play. At Ajax he was a fox in the box type finisher who's best traits were his ability to find space and link up near the top of the pitch in a possession based system. None of those traits fit what we bought him for though. Maguire is another, where we paid an outrageous fee for a defender that isn't a VVD type all action CB. Instead, Maguire thrives when he can play deep in his own half and focus largely on defending his box from aerial threats while not being tasked with having to be super proactive whether in possession or out of it. This is largely how he made his name at Hull and Leicester. However, at United you are expected to dominate games, so it shouldn't come as a surprise that having to defend on the front foot exposes his weaknesses.

3. Lack of footballing structure from the top down- another place where it looks like we are slowly but surely starting to mend this issue (albeit far too slowly), but many of the top clubs in the world have a set structure in how the club operates no matter who the manager is. United never had that because we didn't really need to until Fergie left. And when that happened it sort of turned into Woodward just winging it. The Glazers will never be good owners, but FSG is far worse financially yet Liverpool are a top 3 team in the world. We can do better here.

 

[Random Task]

Managers. We couldn't have picked a worse bunch even if we tried.

Woodward appointed them all.

 

[RedDevil@84]

Glazers mostly. They appoint non-football men to run a football club and they take brainless decisions and that affects the club.
It is pretty dumb. If we do good in football, we generate more revenue and Glazers will have more money in their pockets.

There doesn't seem to be any proper reason why they haven't just spent money bringing in best footballing brains and seeing what happens. I don't think they stand to lose profits if that happens.

 

[DannyCAFC]

The thing that stands out to me is the lack of structure and experience amongst their entire footballing hierarchy. Long-term success is down to more than just the manager alone - people like Txiki Begiristain, Ferran Soriano, Michael Edwards, Rodolfo Borrell and Pepijn Lijnders are a massive part of why City and Liverpool are as good as they are now.

You look at United and they don't have those sort of people/that sort of structure in place. They had an investment banker as their CEO making transfer decisions for the best part of a decade, refused to create a Director Of Football role and have filled their coaching staff with inexperienced ex-players and alongside a dinosaur from the previous era in Mike Phelan.

The association with the likes of Solskjaer, Carrick, Fletcher, Butt et al smacks of them trying to cling on to those successes of yesteryear to me - I get having former players in ambassadorial/non-exec type roles to maintain that link, but if you're learning on the job and don't have any practical experience in these types of high-level roles and you start out at a club like United, it feels like you'll get found out very quickly and I believe that to have been the case.

 

[RuudTom83]

The problem I have with the “money spent” figures and how they compare to City and Liverpool is…those clubs have spent that with one manager, the money is still on the pitch. (in simplistic terms)

United have wasted money, but a big part of that is down to re-spending to correct/align the team with the latest manager. 4-5 managers later all with different approaches equals a lot of wasted funds.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

Lack of a clear footballing direction due to a commercially driven and totally clueless set of owners and board.

A short simple answer but correct.

 

[Hansi Fick]

It is not a "continuing decline" for fecks sake. You finished 7th under Moyes in 2014, imagine where you'd have to be now if you had been continually declining for 8 more seasons.
You just sled down a good notch from the top when Ferguson left and haven't managed to get quite back yet. So if anything it's a continuous state of having declined. But arguably you haven't declined at all since 2014.

I guess that, psychologically, for fans that are used to being at the top every year not being there means things are getting worse, but that's objectively not true. They've just been not getting much better again, so far.

 

[Irwin99]

Ed and the Glazers, a truly rotten player culture that's developed since Moyes/LVG that's not been helped by an astronomical wage bill, bad managerial fits and a lack of direction that stems from chronic mismanagement of the club.

It is not a "continuous decline" for fecks sake. You finished 7th under Moyes in 2014, imagine where you'd have to be now if you had been continually declining for 8 more seasons.
You just sled down a good notch from the top when Ferguson left and haven't managed to get back yet. So if anything it's a continuous state of having declined. But arguably you haven't declined at all since 2014.

Stagnation might be a better word but in terms of a sense of hope and a general sense of direction, decline is probably not too far off as it feels worse than ever sometimes.

 

[Ghostrider318]

The fact that our ex-CEO described us as an Adult version of disneyland is all you need to know about our decline

 

[Cathy Ferguson]

1. Poor hiring practices- Moyes was out of his depth, Van Gaal and Mourinho were both outdated, and OGS was again out of his depth but less so than Moyes. We haven't once hired a manager looking to build a team from the ground up around a style of play that is applicable in modern football (high intensity pressing, defending on the front foot, proper spacing between players to create effective progression of the ball from back to front). Look at any top teams and most all of them do these things with various personalized tweaks. We haven't.

2. Lack of direction in transfer market- I actually think we've improved slightly in how we are going about this compared to 5 years ago, but our transfers since SAF left have largely been based on buying players because they are considered "good" without considering why they are good. DvB is a perfect example as a player we paid a good price for that completely went against how the team liked to play. At Ajax he was a fox in the box type finisher who's best traits were his ability to find space and link up near the top of the pitch in a possession based system. None of those traits fit what we bought him for though. Maguire is another, where we paid an outrageous fee for a defender that isn't a VVD type all action CB. Instead, Maguire thrives when he can play deep in his own half and focus largely on defending his box from aerial threats while not being tasked with having to be super proactive whether in possession or out of it. This is largely how he made his name at Hull and Leicester. However, at United you are expected to dominate games, so it shouldn't come as a surprise that having to defend on the front foot exposes his weaknesses.

3. Lack of footballing structure from the top down- another place where it looks like we are slowly but surely starting to mend this issue (albeit far too slowly), but many of the top clubs in the world have a set structure in how the club operates no matter who the manager is. United never had that because we didn't really need to until Fergie left. And when that happened it sort of turned into Woodward just winging it. The Glazers will never be good owners, but FSG is far worse financially yet Liverpool are a top 3 team in the world. We can do better here.

I agree with this and would like to highlight our abmysmal transfer record. We have paid huge amounts for Maguire, AWB, Donny, and Pogba. I doubt Maguire and AWB will improve under a ten Hag system. How can you press and play a high line when Maguire is so slow and AWB is so poor in possession?

It will take a new manager years and many successful tranfers to build a team to challenge city and Pool.

 

[Hansi Fick]

Stagnation might be a better word but in terms of a sense of hope and a general sense of direction, decline is probably not too far off as it feels worse than ever sometimes.

Yeah, see my edit. I can understand the psychology involved in the perception.

 

[Steven-UK]

Simply zero leadership in the team, or the club, and that has snowballed over the last 7 years. This has then lead to giving mediocre players contracts that were nowhere near the level required. I remember 14/15 years ago when we first got our season tickets just expecting to win every week with the players, and the club mentality we had.

Now? It's like a bunch of overpaid headless chickens scratching away in the dark, whilst all the other top teams have got stronger.

It's criminal how this has been allowed to happen. Now we go to the game just for a night/day out, and expect nothing.

The only bonus the club gives the fans now is the £3 Carling...

 

[Lynty]

It was a two man job to fill Fergie's boots. We needed a Sporting Director and a Manager. Took us too long to create this structural set up - and we're not sure if we've it's even correct now.

I'd like to think we are heading in the right direction now, but only time will tell.

 

[Chairman Steve]

The only bonus the club gives the fans now is the £3 Carling...

They don’t even have the decency to give you a good lager

 

[Utd heap]

It's about time we discussed this.

 

[littlepeasoup]

Every club hates us, hence we have an over-inflated number of opposition players having worldies against us.

The only reason I can think of.

 

[MexicanCowboy]

For me it's clear United lacks football identity. Knowing what kind of football you want to play and signing players and managers accordingly. A fast counter attacking team doesn't not require the same players as a possesion passing team. You shouldn't be jumping from coaches like Van Gaal to the likes of Mourinho because then a lot of the previously valid players will perform badly because they aren't playing the football they were brought to play.
Whatever style could be effective if played correctly but you need to stick to it long term in order to have the ideal players to develop it and for it's principles to stick.
Almost all recently successful teams have decided their football style. I think only Real Madrid remains on the pragmatic side.

 

[wolvored]

Glazers for allowing a banker to run everything after fergie/gill, instead of splitting it in two entities, football and commerce. Glazers should have passed the transfer/wage budget to the football side and let them get on with it. Woodward would have kept the other side going.

 

[Skills]

The same reason we were shit in 2015.

The words : Your job now is to stand by the new manager

fecked us for good.

 

[Vaultech]

United keep going for "easy" fix all the time. The club refuse to bite the bullet and try and experience some short term pain for long term growth. Why was Mourinho hired? Because the fans and board want instant success. Why was Ole given the job? Because he seemed to be performing well as an interim manager.

 

[USREDEVIL]

Bottom line is our manager. We have not had a proper manager long enough to build a team. Nope, just merry go round ones that have chop and changed the squad to their liking without any goal in terms of assembling a team to play a particular style. Like going to the grocery store and picking out 10 ingredients at random and attempting to make a great dish.

 

[Skills]

Bottom line is our manager. We have not had a proper manager long enough to build a team. Nope, just merry go round ones that have chop and changed the squad without any goal in terms of assembling a team to play a particular style. Like going to the grocery store and picking out 10 ingredients at random and attempting to make a great dish.

Only United fans are monumentally stupid enough to believe this.

 

[Powderfinger]

As others have said, it comes down to the lack of anybody on the footballing side of the operation that has (a) a clear vision of a style of football capable of consistently dominating matches in today's game and, relatedly, (b) a notion of the specific attributes that players in each position need to possess in order to execute that style of football at a high level.

I also think the game has just moved in a direction that makes United's lack of the above more consequential, because other clubs have managers/directors who have figured out how to play variations on this very tactically regimented but still technical and intense football and been recruiting specifically with that idea in mind for the last 6-7 years. And United's two biggest rivals have probably the two best managers in the world at putting it into practice. No matter how much money you spend, its hard to compete with that if your approach just involves finding talented players and throwing them together on the pitch. 10-15 years ago United's current strategy might have actually worked. You look at some of the early City title winners or Chelsea 09-10 and while they were great sides they pretty much were a bunch of talented players thrown together over time by successive managers and footballing directors without much of a coherent plan. But that approach just won't cut it anymore.

 

[USREDEVIL]

Only United fans are monumentally stupid enough to believe this.

Which proper (good) manager have we had long enough? We had some shit managers and past it ones, but that's it.

 

[cyril C]

When I asked this in 2015, opinions were generally just that Moyes and van Gaal were both poor appointments, made poor signings, but it wouldn't take much to turn that 'blip' around.

But 9 years with absolutely no title challenge at all..?!

A decline was generally expected, but I can't work out why the decline has been so dramatic..

• United still go head-to-head with the top clubs for signings, and United still sign players that they'd sign if they were regularly challenging for titles - Sancho, Varane, Ronaldo.
• Fans are still attending - I believe I read on the Athletic a while back that according to data analysis, United could sell out Old Trafford 2 or 3 times over with the demand for tickets that they have.

So why do you think? A series of poor managerial appointments? Not signing the correct players? Ed Woodward? Or... Fergie... for... some reason?

Poor appointments resulting in not just poor results, but more importantly poor recruitment.

Take Chelsea as example, they probably have a new manager every 2.5 years, but a new manager can easily turn their fortune around, sometime within the same reason, sometime next season. Tell us the fact that mis-fit managers, often with diverse tactics, is possible with a quick fix, provided you have recruited the RIGHT STUFF.

I am not saying Chelsea doesn't make mistakes on recruitment, in fact many. But their core backbone CAN adapt to new manager's tactics, while we are not.

 

[Sky1981]

Fans lowering standard.

Always applauding lacklustre performances, never installed a fear mentality if you dont perform

Players like rashford and shaw can just stroll around against our derby rival and still getting cheered.

Boo them all I'd say. Make them know what it meant to be loved by the fans by merit.

Their head is so big no manager can properly reign them

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

Which proper (good) manager have we had long enough? We had some shit managers and past it ones, but that's it.

Who hired them? The people who hired them are bigger problem.

 

[RedBanker]

Fans lowering standard.

Always applauding lacklustre performances, never installed a fear mentality if you dont perform

Players like rashford and shaw can just stroll around against our derby rival and still getting cheered.

Boo them all I'd say. Make them know what it meant to be loved by the fans by merit.

Their head is so big no manager can properly reign them

Being a top red is more important to quite a few even if it goes against the overall welfare of the club. The caf itself has plenty such examples

 

[reddevilz007]

Lack of vision and ambitions in the football department.
Like Van Gaal said, commercial club. Profits first, football second. Although if we were winning more, profits would be even greater.

 

[Lemoor]

One part of it is Premier League clubs in general have massively improved over last decade. Most clubs are in decent spot financially now and are trying to use those funds efficiently to improve long term, while we had an accountant in charge who was mostly focused on "making statements" in transfer market and owners who decided that this was acceptable approach and had absolutely no problem with this going on for almost a decade.
It's possible to muscle through some bad decisions with financial advantage if you are basically the only stable club in the country, but without this monopoly you just get left behind.

 

[Lentwood]

When I asked this in 2015, opinions were generally just that Moyes and van Gaal were both poor appointments, made poor signings, but it wouldn't take much to turn that 'blip' around.

But 9 years with absolutely no title challenge at all..?!

A decline was generally expected, but I can't work out why the decline has been so dramatic..

• United still go head-to-head with the top clubs for signings, and United still sign players that they'd sign if they were regularly challenging for titles - Sancho, Varane, Ronaldo.
• Fans are still attending - I believe I read on the Athletic a while back that according to data analysis, United could sell out Old Trafford 2 or 3 times over with the demand for tickets that they have.

So why do you think? A series of poor managerial appointments? Not signing the correct players? Ed Woodward? Or... Fergie... for... some reason?

Our approach to signing players is akin to a child playing FIFA. We don't think about playing style, tactics, personality-type, motivations etc....

I don't think there is much more to it than that. If we improve our recruitment, we'll improve on the pitch.

 

[Random Task]

Being a top red is more important to quite a few even if it goes against the overall welfare of the club. The caf itself has plenty such examples

It's cute that you believe the Glazers care enough about fan opinion to allow them to influence any decisions they make. I hate to be the one to break it to you, but they couldn't care less about us. Selling merchandise by the bucket load, turning an annual profit and keeping the shareholders happy is their only concern. They don't even bother appeasing MUST anymore. They haven't lived up to their promise of shared ownership and probably never will.

 

[Jackal981]

General being clueless in what we want the football team to look like.
Hiring managers who are past it (van Gaal, Mourinho) or not good enough (Moyes, Ole).

This. It's glazer, woodward and the managers. If we had appointed Klopp with a decent DoF instead of that cnut donkey woodward we would have won a few titles right now. The bunch of ragtag abomination we called a squad right now is just the result of their mismanagement after all these years

 

[gerdm07]

The Glazers should have gone all out to keep David Gill. Losing SAF was anticipated and was always going to be difficult to replace. Losing both SAF and Gill set us down the wrong path too many times as regards selecting managers and buying players.

I don't know much about Gill and maybe he was always going to leave, but the Glazers should have kept him for at least a couple of years for a smoother transition.