The RedCafe Boxing Thread

[G-manc]

I like GGG but he's been a bit flat of late.

Maybe he's fought to the level of his opposition to an extent but i get the feeling Canelo might be getting him at the right time. I'm leaning towards an Alvarez decision - GGG has got to be a bit smarter because i don't think he'll get away with just walking him down like he has others.

 

[Raoul]

I heard GGG roughed up Canelo when they sparred a few years back. Not that this would happen if they fought in a couple of weeks though.

 

[Inter Yer Nan]

I heard GGG roughed up Canelo when they sparred a few years back. Not that this would happen if they fought in a couple of weeks though.

https://www.ringtv.com/499961-gym-notes-classics-when-canelo-and-gennady-golovkin-sparred/

Doug Fischer saw it up close and here's his excellent report.

 

[Inter Yer Nan]

That worries me a little especially when this is the pinnacle of his legacy and if he loses there really is no coming back from that. Is he taking this fight seriously enough, carrying fat around the stomach at this stage isn't great.. he didn't used to have those kind of issues. I am sure the fight will be at close proximity.

Jacobs was embarrassing after he final bell, dropping to his knees, disputing the decision, he didn't take the belt from GGG, he ran and spoiled and that never warrants victory in he eyes of the judges.

What do you think about the fight ? How do you think it will play out and who will leave victorious ?!

Would love to watch a big American fight live can only dream of that unfortunately !

I pick GGG. He's the bigger and better fighter and though I think Canelo is improving and GGG is not that's still not enough for me. GGG, like I said doesn't come in there looking like Hagler. A lot of these Eastern Euro fighters carry a little bit of softness around the mid section the higher up the weights you go. Tszyu never had washboard abs either.

I think the fight will have three stages. Rounds 1-4/5 Golovkin will win edge because he will have his jab out there and Canelo will be taking his time basically looking for patterns and holes to exploit and I suspect he will be the more nervous of the two. Rounds 5/6-9 this is where I see Canelo actually having some success and getting some momentum without really hurting GGG but think he will be countering him and it will start turning into something special around these rounds. Rounds 9/10 -11/12 - I think Canelo will tire a bit since he will expand more energy (as I suspect he'll be chasing the fight somewhat) and Golovkin will be landing enough to wear on him and then GGG will score a knockdown and/or (probably) a stoppage since I expect Canelo to be fighting to win - unlike Jacobs. Also, GGG will have it in the back of his mind that a close win doesn't = a win in Las Vegas against the biggest star in the sport.

I think it will be a close-ish fight where Canelo shows spirit and that he's elite but GGG will have a lead by 2 rounds at the time of stoppage or win 115-112 type decision.

 

[Fergies Formula]

I pick GGG. He's the bigger and better fighter and though I think Canelo is improving and GGG is not that's still not enough for me. GGG, like I said doesn't come in there looking like Hagler. A lot of these Eastern Euro fighters carry a little bit of softness around the mid section the higher up the weights you go. Tszyu never had washboard abs either.

I think the fight will have three stages. Rounds 1-4/5 Golovkin will win edge because he will have his jab out there and Canelo will be taking his time basically looking for patterns and holes to exploit and I suspect he will be the more nervous of the two. Rounds 5/6-9 this is where I see Canelo actually having some success and getting some momentum without really hurting GGG but think he will be countering him and it will start turning into something special around these rounds. Rounds 9/10 -11/12 - I think Canelo will tire a bit since he will expand more energy (as I suspect he'll be chasing the fight somewhat) and Golovkin will be landing enough to wear on him and then GGG will score a knockdown and/or (probably) a stoppage since I expect Canelo to be fighting to win - unlike Jacobs. Also, GGG will have it in the back of his mind that a close win doesn't = a win in Las Vegas against the biggest star in the sport.

I think it will be a close-ish fight where Canelo shows spirit and that he's elite but GGG will have a lead by 2 rounds at the time of stoppage or win 115-112 type decision.

Interesting and Insiteful prediction. I would also believe that a late stoppage in favour of GGG is most likely. Would love a 5th round brutal beat down on Canelo though!

 

[Inter Yer Nan]

Interesting and Insiteful prediction. I would also believe that a late stoppage in favour of GGG is most likely. Would love a 5th round brutal beat down on Canelo though!

Haha, I don't mind Canelo to be fair. Think he's good for Boxing. GGG is such a class act and this means so much for his legacy that it's hard to root against him though.

 

[Oggmonster]

Haha, I don't mind Canelo to be fair. Think he's good for Boxing. GGG is such a class act and this means so much for his legacy that it's hard to root against him though.

Yeah I've never quite got the dislike for Canelo. I imagine he'd fight whoever really. I think it's Oscar playing the politics with delaying this fight. I think Oscar is a massive bellend, Canelo seems a nice enough guy though.

 

[Inter Yer Nan]

Yeah I've never quite got the dislike for Canelo. I imagine he'd fight whoever really. I think it's Oscar playing the politics with delaying this fight. I think Oscar is a massive bellend, Canelo seems a nice enough guy though.

Oscar is dumb as rocks, a junkie, a hypocrite and an attention whore. Who'd have thought being a ****** was only like the 5th thing wrong with him.

 

[Oggmonster]

Oscar is dumb as rocks, a junkie, a hypocrite and an attention whore. Who'd have thought being a ****** was only like the 5th thing wrong with him.

The whole build up (and some of the afters) with Mayweather regarding De La Hoya is some of my favourite boxing trash talk...Oscar hasn't got over it to this day.

 

[JoaquinJoaquin]

Oscar is dumb as rocks, a junkie, a hypocrite and an attention whore. Who'd have thought being a ****** was only like the 5th thing wrong with him.

So those stories I heard back in the day about Oscar in Vegas might of been true after all. Thought it was a load of crap at the time.

 

[Inter Yer Nan]

So those stories I heard back in the day about Oscar in Vegas might of been true after all. Thought it was a load of crap at the time.

He admitted that they photos were indeed real.

 

[Inter Yer Nan]

Doug Fischer pointing out a lot of red flags regarding Mayweather and PED's - Personally I've been calling this out for 5-6 years myself and have next to no doubt given all the red flags. People want to ignore it as much as haters want to buy it but there's usually no smoke without fire. Also, if you haven't read Thomas Hausers in depth article about him in 2015 I suggest you do http://www.sbnation.com/longform/2015/9/9/9271811/can-boxing-trust-usada

I’ll start with the big one, the one that really riled up Mayweather’s fans on Twitter just before the pay-per-view “work” (and I admit that I got a chuckle out of their collective “outrage” as they tried to defend a man who has no problems casting aspersions and unfounded allegations on others).

Am I “absolutely convinced” that Mayweather has been “cheating,” as you put it? No, I’m not absolutely convinced. Am I suspicious of possible performance-enhancing drug use? Hell yeah! Just like you and other fans (and media) are suspicious of Pacquiao because of his weight climbing. Just like a legion of fans are suspicious of Juan Manuel Marquez because of his association with Memo Heredia and subsequent bulking up (and back acne). Just like so many are convinced that Antonio Margarito’s hand wraps were loaded for the first fight with Miguel Cotto.

How can I not be suspicious of Mayweather after learning about the IV/USADA/NSAC scandal (after the Pacquiao fight) and, more importantly, the two abnormally low T/E

(testosterone-to-epitestosterone) ratios revealed in lab tests prior to his fights with Victor Ortiz and Robert Guerrero. That’s a well-known red flag of an athlete trying to mask or hide that he’s been artificially boosting his testosterone (which is performance enhancing) by administering exogenous epitestosterone (through injection or by the application of epitestosterone as a cream) to drive their T/E ratio down.

However, that background wasn’t even on my mind and really had nothing to do with what I tweeted after the Mayweather-McGregor weigh-in. I was replying to somebody else’s observation of Mayweather’s physique: “I was thinking about how Floyd’s body looked as he weighed in for Judah, Baldomir & DLH 10-11 years ago vs now. It’s not natural at all. #PED”

Those were my thoughts at the time and I stand by them. Mayweather moved to the

welterweight division in November of 2005 (vs. Sharmba Mitchell). Five months later he fought Zab Judah in Las Vegas. I covered that fight for MaxBoxing (and a Canadian fight network) along with Steve Kim. During the outdoor weigh-in by Caesars Palace, I remember pointing out to Kim and our producers that both boxers looked like junior welterweights. Had Mayweather been in his early 20 at the time, I wouldn’t be as suspicious about his body growth over the next 10-11 years, but he was 28 years old at the time. His body was done growing. And to my eyes, his body has grown noticeably bigger during his late 30s, which just doesn’t happen naturally.

Mind you, I’m not talking about muscle definition, or even muscle bulk. I’m talking about his bone structure. His body frame looks bigger. His bones seem thicker. I’m talking about the size of his head. Look at the photos from the Judah weigh-in that I’ve interspersed throughout my response to your question. And look at the photos from the McGregor weigh-in.

Can I ask whether you let your dislike of the man cloud your judgement? Sure, you can, but whether I like or dislike the man, facts are facts. There are known PED red flags attached to Mayweather and if you haven’t noticed the change in his body over the last five-10 years I have to wonder if you’re just giving him a pass.

I ask because it seems that whenever it gets brought up about Pacquiao juicing (which is more suspicious IMO, given the weight classes he climbed whilst keeping his KO power) you almost seem to dismiss it as speculation/people being haters. People have a right to suspect Pacquiao and any other boxer in this era of PED use. I’m less suspicious about Pacquaio because I know that he turned pro at a young age (16). I’m aware that he was likely prepubescent and malnourished while in his teens, and I know his flyweight title win was somewhat of a fluke. I know that he lost the WBC 112-pound title on the scales and that he still starved himself to make junior featherweight even when he moved up in weight (because I used to cover his training and his fights when he first moved to the U.S.). The night he and Mayweather shared a card in San Francisco in 2001, he could have easily fought at 126 pounds or even 130 (the same weight that Floyd fought at back then) had he allowed himself to eat more than one small bowl of soup per day. I’m also aware of other special fighters throughout boxing history that turned pro young and fought in several weight classes as they grew. (Pac’s growth occurred when it was natural for the male body to grow – the teens and early 20s.) These special men – hall of famers such as Ted “Kid” Lewis, Tony Canzoneri and Billy Conn – were world class in several divisions, spanning similar pound ranges as Pacquiao.

Photo / Esther Lin-SHOWTIME

If you do believe Mayweather has been juicing – when do you think it started and what would it do to his legacy overall? I have no idea if he’s really “juicing,” as you put it, or when he started if he is or if he had, but my guess is that it would have begun during his first retirement in 2008 or just before his comeback (against JMM) in 2009. Look at his body (and his head) during his welterweight bouts in 2006 and 2007 and compare it with his physique of recent years.

 

[Raoul]

@Inter Yer Nan - Is it possible that Floyd is just carrying a bit more body fat in the Conor weigh-ins compared to his appearance against the likes of Judah ?

 

[Inter Yer Nan]

@Inter Yer Nan - Is it possible that Floyd is just carrying a bit more body fat in the Conor weigh-ins compared to his appearance against the likes of Judah ?

Yes and probably likely. But if you look at the evolution of his body from 2006 to say 2012 it raises eyebrows. Then you've got the shit with the IV, the testosterone levels and so on and so forth.

 

[Kazi]

Every single top boxer is on something, just like most other sports.

 

[FC Ronaldo]

Every single top boxer is on something, just like most other sports.

Agreed. It's rife. Footballers included and we'll likely never find out the truth, sadly.

 

[FC Ronaldo]

Yes and probably likely. But if you look at the evolution of his body from 2006 to say 2012 it raises eyebrows. Then you've got the shit with the IV, the testosterone levels and so on and so forth.

Does Hauser still write regular boxing articles? Used to read a lot of his stuff a few years ago and I enjoyed his legal background and how he broke down key facts but haven't seen any of his features over the last few years. Is he on social media?

 

[Inter Yer Nan]

Every single top boxer is on something, just like most other sports.

Not willing to say every one, but I'm sure there's plenty. What irks me with Floyd is that he made sure his opponent was 100% clean while he was manipulating everything with his own testing.

 

[Inter Yer Nan]

Does Hauser still write regular boxing articles? Used to read a lot of his stuff a few years ago and I enjoyed his legal background and how he broke down key facts but haven't seen any of his features over the last few years. Is he on social media?

He still does yeah. For The Ring, but he doesn't have new articles multiple times a week unfortunately. He does write books still though. He's been one of the very best Boxing writers for a long time.

 

[Oggmonster]

fecking hell you really don't like Mayweather do you mate?? @Inter Yer Nan

I'm sure plenty of boxers are juicing, probably Mayweather and plenty of his opponents included.

 

[Inter Yer Nan]

fecking hell you really don't like Mayweather do you mate?? @Inter Yer Nan

I'm sure plenty of boxers are juicing, probably Mayweather and plenty of his opponents included.

I'm not overly fond of him let's just say that.

 

[Fergies Formula]

Haha, I don't mind Canelo to be fair. Think he's good for Boxing. GGG is such a class act and this means so much for his legacy that it's hard to root against him though.

I'm not keen on Canelo at all, just can't warm to him. Ever since he dropped the WBC title to avoid fighting his mandatory challenger golovkin (which GGG had twice given a dispensation on) , that was the final straw. For me all the bold threats of fighting golovkin and making himself out to be a big shot that is scared of no body then not demanding the fight from his promoters shows the type of man he is. He has conned the public with all of his catch weights and opponent picking, similar to maywesther actually.

I hope golovkin stamps his legacy in this fight.

 

[Kazi]

I'm not keen on Canelo at all, just can't warm to him. Ever since he dropped the WBC title to avoid fighting his mandatory challenger golovkin (which GGG had twice given a dispensation on) , that was the final straw. For me all the bold threats of fighting golovkin and making himself out to be a big shot that is scared of no body then not demanding the fight from his promoters shows the type of man he is. He has conned the public with all of his catch weights and opponent picking, similar to maywesther actually.

I hope golovkin stamps his legacy in this fight.

Oscar has done everything possible to turn Canelo against me, but I just can't. Even though he hardly ever speaks English, I find him very likeable and charismatic.

 

[Fergies Formula]

Oscar has done everything possible to turn Canelo against me, but I just can't. Even though he hardly ever speaks English, I find him very likeable and charismatic.

What about dropping his belt to avoid GGG?

 

[Kazi]

What about dropping his belt to avoid GGG?

I'm sure that hurt him to do. But there's a few things. Canelo will fight anyone, he doesn't care - but Oscar is planning his career. After he dropped his belt, his next immediate fight was for the Junior Middleweight world title. I'm sure an offer was made to Golovkin when he had the WBC strap, they would have been unreasonable from the point of view from Golovkin's team, but Canelo is the strong A-side so it was to be expected.

Yet, he still dropped his belt - a move that would turn me against a lot of boxers. But not Canelo.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Yet, he still dropped his belt - a move that would turn me against a lot of boxers. But not Canelo.

Canelo is great and as you say, feels like he would fight anyone, what's not to love?

No idea who I'd prefer to win this one.

 

[Inter Yer Nan]

The ducking of this fight was down to Oscar clearly. Canelo has stepped up in fights in the past even though Oscar didn't want them - Trout, Mayweather at an unfair catchweight, Lara. He has a history of answering the challenge and no doubt got excited after big wins and called GGG only to have egg on his face.

Ultimately he is the fighter and he is accountable for what has happened but it was definitely Oscar. I don't think the fight would be happening now if not for Canelo pushing it. He is over 100% of their revenue if you can believe that.

I think he does have a cockiness about him ("it's my era") and he has been a dick to people who've been critical (justifiably also) and also he beat up little Archie Solis in a bar fight but seems to be maturing.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

From what we know about the character of Mayweather the idea that he is committed to being a clean boxer or that he wouldn't juice seems kind of ludicrous.

 

[Inter Yer Nan]

From what we know about the character of Mayweather the idea that he is committed to being a clean boxer or that he wouldn't juice seems kind of ludicrous.

Exactly. He was all about clean the opponent out but let me do my thing.

 

[Tom Van Persie]

Oscar has done everything possible to turn Canelo against me, but I just can't. Even though he hardly ever speaks English, I find him very likeable and charismatic.

This. I believe Canelo would fight anybody at 154/160 this was proven when he insisted on fighting Lara despite Oscar and Golden Boy telling him not to. The hardcore boxing fans wanted to see that fight but it didn't do much for Canelo financially. It was a high risk low reward fight.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

Exactly. He was all about clean the opponent out but let me do my thing.

Floyd takes every measure to ensure that he keeps his 0 and his mega money fights on the road. PEDS are just another way of limiting the possibility of him losing. I think the broader problem with PEDS in boxing is that you can go from earning £1m for a fight to £50k within three fights if things go badly and if you lose a key fight on the way up you might never get there again. The incentive to dope is even higher than it is in other sports.

 

[Jim Beam]

Styles make fights as they say, so Canelo - Golovkin looks perfect match-up and one that will live up to the hype. Don't have a clear favourite, the only one I've been following and cheering for the last few years and more is Cotto, so I would just enjoy the fight and can't wait to happen.

As a prediction, it will be close but I think Golovkin power, in the end, will prove too much for Canelo.

 

[Raoul]

I just can't visualize any path towards Canelo winning this. GGG's power is going to be the difference imo.

 

[Red_Aaron]

I think GGG will take it but Canelo is a warrior too and won't go easily. I don't want to jinx it but I really think we're in for a treat with this one, a proper war. I cannot wait.

On mayweather I dislike all his out of the ring stuff, his matchmaking and his potential PED use but I just put all that aside and love to watch him. Because let's be honest it's not really any different to practically every other fighter these days, he just happens to be the biggest star meaning he gets the most attention for it

His defensive ability is enthralling, watching him with his chin tucked in his shoulder, elbow up, eyes never leaving his opponent, dodging, slipping, parrying and then countering his way through 12 rounds without a single mark on him. He's a master technician. It's such a shame he never fought peak pac, it couldve been a fight for the ages instead of the damp squib we got.

 

[Jim Beam]

I think GGG will take it but Canelo is a warrior too and won't go easily. I don't want to jinx it but I really think we're in for a treat with this one, a proper war. I cannot wait.

On mayweather I dislike all his out of the ring stuff, his matchmaking and his potential PED use but I just put all that aside and love to watch him. Because let's be honest it's not really any different to practically every other fighter these days, he just happens to be the biggest star meaning he gets the most attention for it

His defensive ability is enthralling, watching him with his chin tucked in his shoulder, elbow up, eyes never leaving his opponent, dodging, slipping, parrying and then countering his way through 12 rounds without a single mark on him. He's a master technician. It's such a shame he never fought peak pac, it couldve been a fight for the ages instead of the damp squib we got.

Also don't like Mayweather personally but his boxing skills are unbelievable. The way he adapts to the opponent and neutralizes him, his defensive and counter-attacking abilities, precision... Operates like a surgeon in that ring. The way he went through the 50 matches practically without taking much damage is remarkable.

Pacquiao match was a huge letdown. He probably avoided him while he was at his peak and then made it happened when he could win it more easily but also generate the most money out of it.

As for Canelo, he certainly can take a punch, he can hit hard and is also great on the counter while being at his peak so it kinda guarantees a great match and one that will finally live to the hype. Hopefully, as you say.

 

[Fergies Formula]

For me a counter fighter is a limited and parasitical way of fighting. Because if there is no attack the counter attacker can't exist. For me boxing should be about fighting and knocking the other fighter out with a mixture of style, all encompassing; aggression, attack, countering, slipping, bullying, dominating etc. I find mayweather too one dimensional and although his defence is a thing of wizardry, it's quite a cowardly form of fighting as he puts the risk on the other fighter, which is quite telling really as his whole career has been formed in such a way that minimilizes risk with the opponents his chooses and the variables he puts in place pre fight.

For me the likes of the golovkins, tysons, pacqioaus etc, will always be more entertaining as they personify the art of boxing in a much more accurate and true light, as to how it originated.

 

[Fergies Formula]

Also don't like Mayweather personally but his boxing skills are unbelievable. The way he adapts to the opponent and neutralizes him, his defensive and counter-attacking abilities, precision... Operates like a surgeon in that ring. The way he went through the 50 matches practically without taking much damage is remarkable.

Pacquiao match was a huge letdown. He probably avoided him while he was at his peak and then made it happened when he could win it more easily but also generate the most money out of it.

As for Canelo, he certainly can take a punch, he can hit hard and is also great on the counter while being at his peak so it kinda guarantees a great match and one that will finally live to the hype. Hopefully, as you say.

I have done a lot of research on this over the years and it can't be underestimated how calculated and controlled mayweather has been in his fight selection and how much of an overwhelming significance this has reflected on his record. His whole career has been manipulated in such a way to achieve this status. 50/0 only highlights his manipulation of his opponents he selected and control over the stipulations, yes he was great at that but was he a great fighter? I'm not so sure.

PAC mans last performance which embodied his all action style was against cotto in 2009, this is when the mayweather fight should have happened as they were both in their prime. Again mayweather found reasons not to fight, on this occasion pointing the finger saying he was juicing, oh the irony. I don't believe you can put any significance on the win against pac as he clearly was a different and aged fighter, I mean Jeff horn just beat him!

This also highlights everything that is wrong with boxing due to its politics and fighters obsessing over their 0. Mayweather has certainly left his business sense on the sport and imo it's for the worse.

This is where the UFC is more appealing than boxing because the fighters have less control over who they are up against and more of a determination to put themselves best NOW and not in 5 years when they are washed up.

I despise the man that is floyd mayweather, in and out of the ring.

 

[Jim Beam]

@Fergies Formula
Agree on the calculation and he was clearly focusing on maintaining the record and earn as much money while lowering the risk. I also did say that he probably, well obviously, dodged Pacquiao at his prime. But in his whole career, he did face serious challenges and some great boxers.
There are certainly far more attractive boxers in the history from my point of view as I also love more attacking/mixing style which is the reason why I love Cotto so much.

Where I definitely don't agree is that it's a cowardly way of boxing in the ring and that he puts all the risk on another boxer when he practically invites all the pressure on him and then manages to get away from it. His ability to take the punch is also seriously underrated.

I would personally like if someone knocked him out and have been cheering for that because of his antics. But nobody could as he was also too bloody good.

Was he a great boxer? For me, absolutely. My favorite? Far from it.

 

[lewwoo]

This is proper boxing on bbc2 now. World amateur championship. Not that circus show last week.

 

[Fergies Formula]

@Fergies Formula
Agree on the calculation and he was clearly focusing on maintaining the record and earn as much money while lowering the risk. I also did say that he probably, well obviously, dodged Pacquiao at his prime. But in his whole career, he did face serious challenges and some great boxers.
There are certainly far more attractive boxers in the history from my point of view as I also love more attacking/mixing style which is the reason why I love Cotto so much.

Where I definitely don't agree is that it's a cowardly way of boxing in the ring and that he puts all the risk on another boxer when he practically invites all the pressure on him and then manages to get away from it. His ability to take the punch is also seriously underrated.

I would personally like if someone knocked him out and have been cheering for that because of his antics. But nobody could as he was also too bloody good.

Was he a great boxer? For me, absolutely. My favorite? Far from it.

@Fergies Formula
Agree on the calculation and he was clearly focusing on maintaining the record and earn as much money while lowering the risk. I also did say that he probably, well obviously, dodged Pacquiao at his prime. But in his whole career, he did face serious challenges and some great boxers.
There are certainly far more attractive boxers in the history from my point of view as I also love more attacking/mixing style which is the reason why I love Cotto so much.

Where I definitely don't agree is that it's a cowardly way of boxing in the ring and that he puts all the risk on another boxer when he practically invites all the pressure on him and then manages to get away from it. His ability to take the punch is also seriously underrated.

I would personally like if someone knocked him out and have been cheering for that because of his antics. But nobody could as he was also too bloody good.

Was he a great boxer? For me, absolutely. My favorite? Far from it.

He was a great boxer indeed, I can't dispute that, but there have been plenty of those. Part of my aggrevience with him is his relentless self proficafion of TBE, clearly he is not!