The RedCafe Boxing Thread

[Raoul]

And if he'd got himself knocked out in an exchange, he would've been slaughtered by fans and pundits alike.

Joshua gave up, what? around 50lbs last night? It would be foolhardy in the extreme for him to try and plant his feet and try and generate power, even more so knowing from the first fight that this guy can take his best punches at a heavier weight and power differential.

The post-fight notion of Ruiz not being a threat belies the truth.

He should've gone for an early KO. That would've sent a proper message that the first result was a one off. He's already demonstrated he can knock him down, so this time knock him out.

 

[ivaldo]

On the contrary, there's a bit of obvious pro-AJ bias here due to the English crowd, who get a bit sensitive when anyone criticizes their guy.

I just want to see a bit more KO power, which I know he has in him. He should've finished Ruiz off after the hook in fight one and I expected him to finish that job last night. He instead opted for safety. It doesn't flatter a world class fighter to fight to not lose instead of taking the fight to his opponent.

So winning by points doesn’t count? Your bias towards Windmill Wilder makes sense now.

Joshua proving he can reinvent himself in 5 months and do what all his detractors says he couldn’t do is far more of a message than going in there and swinging.

 

[DoomSlayer]

He should've gone for an early KO. That would've sent a proper message that the first result was a one off. He's already demonstrated he can knock him down, so this time knock him out.

Ruiz is a better boxer than Wilder.

 

[Raoul]

Ruiz is a better boxer than Wilder.

This matters little if you can't win the fight.

 

[Raoul]

So winning by points doesn’t count? Your bias towards Windmill Wilder makes sense now.

Wilder frustrates me in this regard as well, but at least he gets the knockout (or near KO in the case of Fury).

 

[sullydnl]

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[Raoul]

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AJ is correct here.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Wow....

They all talk shit until they need to put in a boxing masterclass, eventually they all realise they won’t win every fight by knockout.

 

[Jim Beam]

The way he went into the match, Ruiz best chance would be if he tried to eat Joshua.

 

[DoomSlayer]

This matters little if you can't win the fight.

Ruiz will absolutely knockout Wilder if they ever fight each other, you can quote me on that. Wilder will not be able to change his style and can't exchange punches in close range with Ruiz without being seriously hurt.

 

[Fortitude]

He should've gone for an early KO. That would've sent a proper message that the first result was a one off. He's already demonstrated he can knock him down, so this time knock him out.

An early KO, how? Against a faster-handed; heavier (by far); more durable opponent, who, as I already said, showed he can take Joshua's best punches at a heavier (more powerful) weight, when he is fresh?

There's no evidence at all that even heavier Joshua could knock this guy out, even if he planted and went all out for it, to then try and do so when lighter - and Ruiz even heavier - coming off a loss, is basically career suicide.

I don't think anyone in the division will be dumb enough to stand and trade with Ruiz unless they have to.

Stylistically, he is the worst match-up for Wilder after Fury.

 

[Raoul]

An early KO, how? Against a faster-handed; heavier (by far); more durable opponent, who, as I already said, showed he can take Joshua's best punches at a heavier (more powerful) weight, when he is fresh?

There's no evidence at all that even heavier Joshua could knock this guy out, even if he planted and went all out for it, to then try and do so when lighter - and Ruiz even heavier - coming off a loss, is basically career suicide.

I don't think anyone in the division will be dumb enough to stand and trade with Ruiz unless they have to.

Stylistically, he is the worst match-up for Wilder after Fury.

Ruiz is obese so it strains credulity to believe that AJ, who is supposed to be one of the best heavyweights of his generation, couldn’t easily put him away. AJ was in better shape than in fight one and Ruiz was in far worse shape, so all things said, it should have been a relatively short night at the office for AJ.

 

[Raoul]

Ruiz will absolutely knockout Wilder if they ever fight each other, you can quote me on that. Wilder will not be able to change his style and can't exchange punches in close range with Ruiz without being seriously hurt.

Wilder would simply do what he did against Ortiz, who is a bit more technical than Ruiz. Stay out of range and lull him into a sense of security, then knock him out.

 

[DoomSlayer]

Ruiz is obese so it strains credulity to believe that AJ, who is supposed to be one of the best heavyweights of his generation, couldn’t easily put him away. AJ was in better shape than in fight one and Ruiz was in far worse shape, so it shouldn’t been a relatives short night at the office for AJ.

That fact that he is obese and moves faster than almost all other heavyweights, makes Ruiz one of the most dangerous opponents possible.

His head can barely be rocked because he doesn't even have a visible neck, all that mass gives him so much protection and I don't think he even gets fazed by body shots, unless they hit right on the money.

 

[DoomSlayer]

Wilder would simply do what he did against Ortiz, who is a bit more technical than Ruiz. Stay out of range and lull him into a sense of security, then knock him out.

Ortiz is an old man and still almost beat Wilder in his supposed prime. Ruiz will be a totally different proposition, especially if he improves his stamina a little bit, which is already good enough for the size of his body.

 

[ivaldo]

Wilder frustrates me in this regard as well, but at least he gets the knockout (or near KO in the case of Fury).

He has to because he doesn’t have the ability to outbox any half decent boxer. He doesn’t have the intelligence or boxing ability to do anything other than swing for the fences, which is why there are several fighters he simply will not face.

To say Joshua fought simply to avoid losing isn’t just strange, it’s completely wrong.

 

[Fortitude]

Ruiz is obese so it strains credulity to believe that AJ, who is supposed to be one of the best heavyweights of his generation, couldn’t easily put him away. AJ was in better shape than in fight one and Ruiz was in far worse shape, so it shouldn’t been a relatives short night at the office for AJ.

You didn't answer my question. And that's definitely not how power works in punch exchanges and also durability. A lighter (weaker) Joshua is supposed to do what a heavier (stronger) Joshua didn't in double-quick time, how?

Fatiguing the bigger man, picking him off until he is spent, and then trying to knock him out, is feasible, but not for Joshua, as Ruiz can end the fight at any time if he connects squarely, which Joshua is prone to offering when he plants his feet.

 

[Bubz27]

Ruiz is obese so it strains credulity to believe that AJ, who is supposed to be one of the best heavyweights of his generation, couldn’t easily put him away. AJ was in better shape than in fight one and Ruiz was in far worse shape, so it shouldn’t been a relatives short night at the office for AJ.

This sounds like my mum when she was watching the fight last night. "He's fat, why can't AJ just knock him out."

You know full well boxing is much much more complex than that.

 

[ivaldo]

Wilder would simply do what he did against Ortiz, who is a bit more technical than Ruiz. Stay out of range and lull him into a sense of security, then knock him out.

I’ve seen you say this a couple of times now. You can’t honestly believe that. Wilder was simply wholly outboxed by a 40 year old that couldn’t last 12 rounds. Take 5 years off Ortiz and he would’ve pummelled Wilder into the ground.

 

[Bestietom]

Ruiz has a good jaw and will last the distance against wilder. I wouldn't like to predict that one.

 

[Raoul]

I’ve seen you say this a couple of times now. You can’t honestly believe that. Wilder was simply wholly outboxed by a 40 year old that couldn’t last 12 rounds. Take 5 years off Ortiz and he would’ve pummelled Wilder into the ground.

I disagreed with Wilder’s strategy of avoidance as well. He should’ve engaged earlier.

 

[Raoul]

This sounds like my mum when she was watching the fight last night. "He's fat, why can't AJ just knock him out."

You know full well boxing is much much more complex than that.

The weight wasn’t the only issue, but the fact that AJ deliberately came in significantly lighter (and Ruiz significantly fatter), suggests it was a factor.

 

[Raoul]

He has to because he doesn’t have the ability to outbox any half decent boxer. He doesn’t have the intelligence or boxing ability to do anything other than swing for the fences, which is why there are several fighters he simply will not face.

To say Joshua fought simply to avoid losing isn’t just strange, it’s completely wrong.

Which is fine as long as you win consistently by the spectacle of KO. Fans and promoters will continue to look forward to your next fight.

 

[Bubz27]

The weight wasn’t the only issue, but the fact that AJ deliberately came in significantly lighter (and Ruiz significantly fatter), suggests it was a factor.

A small factor, in my opinion. Boxing doesn't matter what you look like.

You also have to factor in the psychological factors involved, having been KO'd by him previously.

 

[Inter Yer Nan]

@Inter Yer Nan you’re our resident boxing exoert. Can you wade into this debate. Did AJ produce a decent display of actual boxing, which was what was required to get the job done, or do you think he was boring and cowardly for not engaging in a slugfest?

He boxed intelligently and used his advantages and Ruiz’ disadvantages well and dominated. Nothing cowardly about it and Ruiz could have tried to do something about it. Joshua was the one landing the bigger shots too.

 

[Fully Fledged]

If he got himself fit he would be a cruiserweight and would most likely dominate that division

Yeah true.

 

[ivaldo]

I disagreed with Wilder’s strategy of avoidance as well. He should’ve engaged earlier.

It wasn't a case of avoidance. It was a case of the older fighter having far superior skills.

 

[Raoul]

It wasn't a case of avoidance. It was a case of the older fighter having far superior skills.

Far greater is debatable but the end result is the same. He avoided engaging to wait for the KO.

 

[ivaldo]

Which is fine as long as you win consistently by the spectacle of KO. Fans and promoters will continue to look forward to your next fight.

Either that or have the judges gift you a lifeline as with the Fury fight where he was completely outmatched.

Thing is, Wilder hasn't had fans lining up to watch him. He's fought bums for so long people had no interest in him. Fury somewhat rectified that, but it took the Brit, someone who hadn't knocked anyone out for 5 years at the time of their fight, one match in America to dwarf Wilders support in his own country. Fury and Joshua are vastly bigger draws.

But we are digressing here. The main point of debate was your claim Joshua boxed to avoid losing.

 

[Judas]

Wilder was out of his depth against Ortiz, it wasn't a tactic how that fight was going, he was simply losing. But he's got that weapon of his to get him out of trouble, and its been the only thing saving him in many fights against anyone of any real talent.

 

[ivaldo]

Far greater is debatable but the end result is the same. He avoided engaging to wait for the KO.

Ortiz was comfortably ahead by on all three scorecards, even with the knockdown taken into consideration. He tried some haymakers but couldn't anything to land because he was being outboxed.

 

[Raoul]

Ortiz was comfortably ahead by on all three scorecards, even with the knockdown taken into consideration. He tried some haymakers but couldn't anything to land because he was being outboxed.

That was Wilder’s strategy going in. To ignore point scoring and wait for the right moment for a KO. So obviously Ortiz was going to win most rounds - Wilder (regrettably) chose to wait for the knockout moment.

 

[ivaldo]

That was Wilder’s strategy going in. To ignore point scoring and wait for the right moment for a KO. So obviously Ortiz was going to win most rounds - Wilder (regrettably) chose to wait for the knockout moment.

Wilder avoids point scoring because he'd struggle to outbox anyone in the top 20. His strategy, as always, was to knock Ortiz out. He doesn't have the defensive ability to reliably avoid someone for 12 rounds. He tried to get Ortiz out of there sooner but was unable to do so.

 

[DoomSlayer]

That was Wilder’s strategy going in. To ignore point scoring and wait for the right moment for a KO. So obviously Ortiz was going to win most rounds - Wilder (regrettably) chose to wait for the knockout moment.

Ruiz will not allow Wilder that much time, he'd be in his face from the start and has much more speed and power than Ortiz. Wilder will be drawn out into a brawl and won"t be able to knock Ruiz out, resulting in some serious damage done by the Mexican.

If he decides to defend and counter like Joshua did, he would fare even worse as he doesn't have the boxing skills and boxing IQ to do it.

 

[DoomSlayer]

Fact is Wilder has only faced one serious fighter in Fury, who totally outboxed him, whilst in my opinion still being rusty from that long break he had.

Joshua has shown he can literally fight any type of boxer and utilise his own skillset in the most effective way. He outpowered a total machine in Klitschko, and outsmarted and outboxed an incredibly tough, unpredictable and dodgy opponent in Ruiz.

 

[Raoul]

Wilder avoids point scoring because he'd struggle to outbox anyone in the top 20. His strategy, as always, was to knock Ortiz out. He doesn't have the defensive ability to reliably avoid someone for 12 rounds. He tried to get Ortiz out of there sooner but was unable to do so.

True, but the objective isn't to outbox people, its to win.

 

[passing-wind]

Ruiz got his head boxed off AJ looks more complete as a fighter when he's disciplined in his performances in comparison to when he's trying to force the KO. His lateral movement was fantastic made Ruiz reset every single time, any time Andy got close BOP ! the jab was in his face and Joshua was back on his bike. It was very reminiscent from a tactical perspective of what you would see Mayweather doing pot shotting his way to victory. If you notice throughout the entirety of the bout Ruiz was never in any meaningful rhythm he was following rather than "cutting off" the ring and was frustrated throughout the second half of the fight.

Third fight would probably be an exact replica of what we saw last night, a shorter man trying to close the distance from a more rangier fighter getting picked off in the process.

AJ should stay away from 18 stone, his 'adjust weight to the credibility of the opponent' mentality should be forgotten because that's the first time in his career he didn't gas throughout the latter rounds. Was a good spectacle.

 

[Bubz27]

I was shocked Ruiz let himself get into a position where he could blame weight for this loss. Stereotype of letting the fame get to his head. Desperate for a trilogy now.

I'd be less inclined to give him the rematch now than before the fight. If he'd have lost but shown that he took it seriously, then maybe. The way he approached this and fought, I don't think he deserves it.

 

[ivaldo]

True, but the objective isn't to outbox people, its to win.

Precisely. Which absolutely flies in the face of everything you've posted since the fight...

 

[The Cat]

I was shocked Ruiz let himself get into a position where he could blame weight for this loss. Stereotype of letting the fame get to his head. Desperate for a trilogy now.

I'd be less inclined to give him the rematch now than before the fight. If he'd have lost but shown that he took it seriously, then maybe. The way he approached this and fought, I don't think he deserves it.

I certainly wouldn't be bothered about watching it.