I think Bolton have declined since then.
The relative strength of the Premier League
- Thread starter Wumminator
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Ridiculous how strong it was back then, of course that was the period when we came into money under Lerner and tried to challenge.
The spine of the 11s were all so strong. Man. United: VDS/Rio/Vidic/Evra/Carrick/Scholes/Giggs/Ronaldo/Rooney/Tevez
Liverpool: Reina/Carragher/Hyypia/Gerrard/Alonso/Mascherano/Torres
Chelsea: Cech/Terry/Carvalho/Cole/Essien/Lampard/Ballack/Drogba
Arsenal were a little off those three but still had quality like Fabregas and Van Persie.
Main thing for me in europe was all teams could score but they could also grind out results over two legs. Man. United v Barca in 2008 and they also hardly conceded a goal in the knock outs in 2011. Liverpool were always so tough to take out over two legs under Benitez. Even Arsenal in 2006 made the final without conceding a goal in KO rounds.
Think that's something prem clubs lost in last 5-6 years, Man. City still haven't got it which partly explains why they keep getting knocked out around the quarter finals as they're too easy to score against.
Don't think it's fair to say that Ronaldinho & Henry were "key attacking options" for that game given that Ronaldinho was not in the squad and Henry was on the bench. They started that game with Messi, Deco, Iniesta, Xavi & Eto'o. All absolutely fantastic players who would get into this current Barca side.
When you consider how meddling their league form could sometimes be under Benitez it's remarkable to think that they only failed to reach the semis once between 04-08. Fairly remarkable record for a side that didn't come close to winning the league in said time period.
I've always thought Arsenal were the under-performers of the bunch - they did superbly in 05-06, but bizarrely did much worse in the years preceding that despite the fact that their team was far better. Considering the competition was quite open in the early 2000s it'd have been a superb opportunity for them to win it, or at least get to a final in that period.
Yeah. I think the decline in quality below like 12th or 13th is worrying. The bottom teams just aren’t competitive.
I have many random thoughts regarding the subject in mind so my post is not structured or organised around only one point, I don't believe that one league stays always as the strongest, its relative strength is shown in Europe but its cyclical and never remain more than 8 years IMO so I just want to share a few things about the matter:
So as I said above, I would say that the dominations periods by teams from a same league tend to be a cyclical phenomenon with a time frame ranging from 4 to 8 years, every league had it share of dominance for instance I list here a few notable time frames:
Spain: 1955-1960, 2013-2018
Netherlands: 1969-1973
England: 1976-1984,
An even period betwen Spain and England: 1999-2012( we had 3 winners & 5 finalists for the CL alone, Spain had 5 winners & 2 finalists , but we tend to have a small advantage as we had most of the time more teams in the last 8 and semis).
With the ultimate financial power of the PL we are most likely set to witness another period of dominance from 2019 until when? (Probably another cycle of 4 - 8 years unless la Liga make up ground by conquering the Asian & American Market, and promote teams other than Real Madrid & Barcelona or resort to financial doping again).
Now it's all about money and all 6 English teams have a massive advantage now, the best football managers in the world are working in the PL because clubs give them more resources than they could have anywhere else (or at least as much as PSG, Barcelona and Real can give), having the best managers around with the right ressources defenitely helps.
So as I said above, I would say that the dominations periods by teams from a same league tend to be a cyclical phenomenon with a time frame ranging from 4 to 8 years, every league had it share of dominance for instance I list here a few notable time frames:
Spain: 1955-1960, 2013-2018
Netherlands: 1969-1973
England: 1976-1984,
An even period betwen Spain and England: 1999-2012( we had 3 winners & 5 finalists for the CL alone, Spain had 5 winners & 2 finalists , but we tend to have a small advantage as we had most of the time more teams in the last 8 and semis).
With the ultimate financial power of the PL we are most likely set to witness another period of dominance from 2019 until when? (Probably another cycle of 4 - 8 years unless la Liga make up ground by conquering the Asian & American Market, and promote teams other than Real Madrid & Barcelona or resort to financial doping again).
Now it's all about money and all 6 English teams have a massive advantage now, the best football managers in the world are working in the PL because clubs give them more resources than they could have anywhere else (or at least as much as PSG, Barcelona and Real can give), having the best managers around with the right ressources defenitely helps.
I think Arsenal were much better in 2008. They were title contenders until the game at OT.
The top teams in Europe were generally weaker and there were less strong teams.
That said, the top 4 then was the European top 4 for me IMO. I don't know if the Prem will ever have that again.
2008/09? Yes for Barcelona. As for us...i dunno. This team has far more talent than the 08/09 one, but is also at the end of a highly succesful cycle, older and less motivated. We did push barcelona in the league to right until the 6-2 late in the season in the league. Still, they beat us 6-2 at the bernabeu...
They were a team at the end of a cycle. Great individual talent, but not a great team. They sucked ass in the league and only got far in CL due to lucky draws.
And you guys looked completely outclassed vs Liverpool in the Champions league. Lost 5-0 on aggregate.
I actually went to watch Real Madrid play Bate Borisov in September 2008, full of great names like Cannavaro, Snejider, Robben, Van Der Vaart, Raul and RVN but it was similar to this one, the average age was a little too old and the cycle was at an end and that was reflected in losing 4-0 at Anfield in the last 16.
Edit: Also randomly ended up with Juande Ramos as manager after he got sacked from Spurs.
Deco was a busted fish in 2008.
There's no way he'd get into the current side.
The 2008 Barcelona team has more talent on paper than the current side, but they weren't a good team and they don't have prime Messi.
Our runs in the 00/01, 01/02 and 02/03 Champions Leagues produced some absolutely terrific performances. However, we were never consistent.
00/01 - Lost to a very good Valencia side in the QF. Very close game.
01/02 - Couldn't get out of an extremely tough Second Group Stage with Juve, Leverkusen and Deportivo.
02/03 - Again, couldn't get out of an extremely tough Second Group Stage with with Valenica, Ajax and Roma.
03/04 - This was our title to lose. Lots of teams under performed that year and we had one of the best teams in our history. A Lehmann howler in the 2nd Leg QF against Chelsea absolutely drained the life out of us.
04/05 - Our worst away performance in the Champions League up to that point away to Munich was enough to send us packing. I wouldn't have fancied our chances vs Chelsea/Milan that year though.
We didn't get the luck in our favour. Add to that the second round group stage which we never really mastered. Even though we went unbeaten in 03/04, I would swap that tag for a PL-CL double.
Point made. Aside from Liverpool, all those players would walk into today's respective squad's.
The current Premiership lacks quality in depth.
I don't know about that "aside from Liverpool" part. I'd not really feck with our forwards or defence much, but I'd swap every single midfielder we have for Mascherano/Alonso/Gerrard in an absolute instant. Sami walks into our defence.
Of course.. that's why I stated 'aside from Liverpool' because there is a discussion to be had there.
Torres gets into the current team though. He was incredible.
Oh, my bad. I thought you meant Liverpool were the only ones out of those listed where the players wouldn't make it into the squad
Well, we won the league and the DFB cup in 2008, everything else is just mickey mouse cups.
End of the noughties were quite dark times, 2008 double or no. While we are still in decline compared to the past 5-6 years (maybe beginning to stabilize now), we are still better than during that time. Most of all the rest of the Bundesliga has declined relative to us, though, so it's not the best frame of reference.
If Barca win tomorrow its very likely we have yet another final without an english team (almost 10 in a row)
So you forgotten last year?
I meant champions sorry
2012 is 7 years.
We had as many champions in the past decade as Italian and German teams. Spains just simply dominated especially Madrid obviously.
Up!
The premier league is strong but that Messi is something else.
Better to bump this after the return legs, we wouldn't wanna jinx things.
In fairness Liverpool weren't bad, not before the 2nd goal anyway.
Spurs should still go through with Son back.
The Messi factor makes Barca a formidable team. A playmaker who also scores more than any strikers out there
I'm blaming you if we get a Spurs Liverpool final.
Quality post there, no wonder the Spanish economy is doing so well.
Might be worth a new thread, but thought this article was really interesting.
It was never going to be an immediate impact but the big increase in how much money the premier league generates over the years, especially for the clubs that are run properly, gave smaller teams a huge chance of bridging that gap to the top. They can withstand the the big teams more than before, they can attract top talents from elsewhere and really develop quality sides. The upper mid-table this season especially has all improved so much compared to before and it's rare that you see so many of them trending so positively. You look at the team Leicester or Wolves have. Loads of potential but also performing really well now. Same with Everton and Watford. Next year you would expect them to just push on and improve as well and there's a real possibility that one of them could make a push for the top 4 and join in with the CL places, especially considering Spurs/Chelsea/Arsenal have their various restrictions in spending.
Even the bottom half you have a lot of decently performing sides that have reasons to be optimistic. There will always be that group that is barely fighting for survival and at a similar level to other leagues, but in contrast to some previous years, I feel like that's a much smaller group whereas the mid table is definitely the strongest "mid table" in the world.
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It was never going to be an immediate impact but the big increase in how much money the premier league generates over the years, especially for the clubs that are run properly, gave smaller teams a huge chance of bridging that gap to the top. They can withstand the the big teams more than before, they can attract top talents from elsewhere and really develop quality sides. The upper mid-table this season especially has all improved so much compared to before and it's rare that you see so many of them trending so positively. You look at the team Leicester or Wolves have. Loads of potential but also performing really well now. Same with Everton and Watford. Next year you would expect them to just push on and improve as well and there's a real possibility that one of them could make a push for the top 4 and join in with the CL places, especially considering Spurs/Chelsea/Arsenal have their various restrictions in spending.
Even the bottom half you have a lot of decently performing sides that have reasons to be optimistic. There will always be that group that is barely fighting for survival and at a similar level to other leagues, but in contrast to some previous years, I feel like that's a much smaller group whereas the mid table is definitely the strongest "mid table" in the world.
Very good article there.
It's all very well obsessing over top 6 but the premier league has always struggled to put together a competitive run in europe in the teams below that.
No problem for likes of Spain which has seen teams like Alaves and Espanyol make european finals in last 20 years and then the established pack of Sevilla, Villareal usually have good runs.
Only Fulham did miles better than expected in europe and probably Leicester in fairness when they reached quarters of UCL a few years back.
When you look at premier league this season I think so many teams have underachieved....Leicester should be in europe with their quality, they just had the wrong type of manager in charge for over half of it. Everton are playing very well week in week out, very example of a club that goes into depression for a few months when they unluckily lose a big game.
I also look at Palace in the bottom half with just 4 home wins and think surely they should be correcting that with their resources. Remember English bottom half have far more money to spend on transfer than their counterparts in Italy, Germany and Spain. West Ham are another wildly inconsistant team, one week beating Arsenal, the next dismally losing to Cardiff.
I'm not demanding they all finish in the top 6 (although what a refreshing season that would be) but there simply shouldn't be gaps of 15 points between 6th and 7th as there was up to three weeks ago. Not in seasons where Man. United are awful up to Xmas and Arsenal are posting their average of around 5 away wins all season.
If the sides below top 6 can really step up next season then we'd have a very special premier league. One where the title winners goes back to posting around 79 points (unlikely) and the third relegated team goes down on 40 points. This is stuff that always happened in the 90s and also in 15/16.
It's all very well obsessing over top 6 but the premier league has always struggled to put together a competitive run in europe in the teams below that.
No problem for likes of Spain which has seen teams like Alaves and Espanyol make european finals in last 20 years and then the established pack of Sevilla, Villareal usually have good runs.
Only Fulham did miles better than expected in europe and probably Leicester in fairness when they reached quarters of UCL a few years back.
When you look at premier league this season I think so many teams have underachieved....Leicester should be in europe with their quality, they just had the wrong type of manager in charge for over half of it. Everton are playing very well week in week out, very example of a club that goes into depression for a few months when they unluckily lose a big game.
I also look at Palace in the bottom half with just 4 home wins and think surely they should be correcting that with their resources. Remember English bottom half have far more money to spend on transfer than their counterparts in Italy, Germany and Spain. West Ham are another wildly inconsistant team, one week beating Arsenal, the next dismally losing to Cardiff.
I'm not demanding they all finish in the top 6 (although what a refreshing season that would be) but there simply shouldn't be gaps of 15 points between 6th and 7th as there was up to three weeks ago. Not in seasons where Man. United are awful up to Xmas and Arsenal are posting their average of around 5 away wins all season.
If the sides below top 6 can really step up next season then we'd have a very special premier league. One where the title winners goes back to posting around 79 points (unlikely) and the third relegated team goes down on 40 points. This is stuff that always happened in the 90s and also in 15/16.
City: personal project of Pep. Failed vs. another PL team at the UCL. Top4 richest clubs in the world.
Liverpool: found out by Barça.
Spurs: found out by Ajax.
Chelsea: probable EL winners.
Arsenal: EL finalists.
Manchester United: unpredictable but currently a UCL QF.
Wolves, Leicester, Watford, West Ham, Everton: better than the bulk of Seria A, Ligue1 and Bundesliga teams. Surely slighty worse than Top5-10 La Liga teams (Sevilla, Valencia, Getafe, Betis, Athletic, etc).
That's the actual strenght of the PL for ya.
Liverpool: found out by Barça.
Spurs: found out by Ajax.
Chelsea: probable EL winners.
Arsenal: EL finalists.
Manchester United: unpredictable but currently a UCL QF.
Wolves, Leicester, Watford, West Ham, Everton: better than the bulk of Seria A, Ligue1 and Bundesliga teams. Surely slighty worse than Top5-10 La Liga teams (Sevilla, Valencia, Getafe, Betis, Athletic, etc).
That's the actual strenght of the PL for ya.
So everyone other than the champions league winner has been ‘found out’ by that logic then? Getafe and Betis surely better? No chance.
Variance from season to season, even such a stark one as that, is not unusual. Whether it's a trend or a fluke remains to be seen
I'm going to point out that 7th to 9th in Serie A have similar points and better GD than the 7th to 9th in PL. In Spain they have slightly lower points and considerably worse GD
Make of that what you will
I'm going to point out that 7th to 9th in Serie A have similar points and better GD than the 7th to 9th in PL. In Spain they have slightly lower points and considerably worse GD
Make of that what you will
We had a fantastic spin those years but our depth was shockingly bad so no surprise we always failed in the league.
Our bench usually consisted of the likes of Jay spearing, Nabil el Zhar and Andri Voronin, non of which where good even for league one even.
I know he is unloved here but Benitez did remarkable well to make us a good cup team given the owners where doing there best to bankrupt the club.
There's 11 pts between #6 and #7. Doesn't seem like top 6 is being threatened by the rest IMO.
The problem with teams like Everton, Leicester, Wolves and Watford is that they will find it hard to compete in two competitions. None have played in Europe this season, and this has allowed them to focus on the EPL. Next season, 1 or 2 of them will be in Europe and they will find it hard to remain competitive in the PL. Teams really struggle to match the demands of the EL and EPL.
I can't see any of these teams trying to bridge the gap whilst playing in the EL.
I can't see any of these teams trying to bridge the gap whilst playing in the EL.
Because of the $$, there is more parity within the Premier League -- and thus more competitive amongst themselves. As a league its stronger but individually, you will always have Barca or RM as the very best.
Folks vote with their $$. Why does Scudamore and his lot command more money than the rest of the other leagues combined? Clearly, whether the individual teams are better than any of the Premier League's is secondary. The answer is that is in the collective and the total product as a whole that matters.
Folks vote with their $$. Why does Scudamore and his lot command more money than the rest of the other leagues combined? Clearly, whether the individual teams are better than any of the Premier League's is secondary. The answer is that is in the collective and the total product as a whole that matters.
Marketing. The PL started earlier than everyone else and managed to establish big fan bases all around the world.
People don't care about Wolves or Watford. They care about United, Liverpool, Arsenal and Chelsea. It's not about parity, it's about having more teams with a big following, and those teams being good enough to sustain interest long enough to turn it into genuine fandom.