The relative strength of the Premier League

Ace

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No you dont, you think West Ham can challenge anyone in Europe? The delusion from PL fans is staggering. Leicester struggled in CL too, just stop. I agree that Spanish football is falling off a cliff.
He said five or six teams who could challenge anyone in Europe, which is probably true given the strength and depth of the Premier League. West Ham is an easy team to cherry pick given how poor they've been in recent history, but they're having a great season this year. As far as Leicester is concerned, they finished top of their group, beat Sevilla, and lost 1-2 on aggregate against Atletico in the quarters of their first and only Champions League appearance. It's hard to say that they've "struggled" in the CL.

For however weak you think the PL is, I don't think a single Spanish side would finish in the top four of the Premier League this season.
 

Daysleeper

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He said five or six teams who could challenge anyone in Europe, which is probably true given the strength and depth of the Premier League. West Ham is an easy team to cherry pick given how poor they've been in recent history, but they're having a great season this year. As far as Leicester is concerned, they finished top of their group, beat Sevilla, and lost 1-2 on aggregate against Atletico in the quarters of their first and only Champions League appearance. It's hard to say that they've "struggled" in the CL.

For however weak you think the PL is, I don't think a single Spanish side would finish in the top four of the Premier League this season.
I think Atletico would, Leicester had the worst EPL title defense ever, prior to Liverpool. Leicester are decent this year. Top 5-6 in epl are massively overrated in recent years. Spanish sides have the best coefficient of the past ten years, this season la liga is terrible. But on the whole epl teams have been very underwhelming in CL until Liverpool showed up recently. Epl top 5-6 is a huge overstatement. Considering Sevilla were a top 4 team mostly in la liga and have dominated Europa in recent years. United were second in epl and couldn’t even get out of the group stage.

doesn’t meant united aren’t a good team but epl is wildly overrated by its fans as again, this is the weakest epl since 2016. But I think all top 5 leagues are on a down swing
 

Ace

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I think Atletico would, Leicester had the worst EPL title defense ever, prior to Liverpool. Leicester are decent this year. Top 5-6 in epl are massively overrated in recent years. Spanish sides have the best coefficient of the past ten years, this season la liga is terrible. But on the whole epl teams have been very underwhelming in CL until Liverpool showed up recently. Epl top 5-6 is a huge overstatement. Considering Sevilla were a top 4 team mostly in la liga and have dominated Europa in recent years. United were second in epl and couldn’t even get out of the group stage.

doesn’t meant united aren’t a good team but epl is wildly overrated by its fans as again, this is the weakest epl since 2016. But I think all top 5 leagues are on a down swing
Half of the finalists over the past three years have been English compared to only one Spanish side. United also had the CL finalist and semi finalists in their group, but we're not talking about United anyway. You can thank Madrid for that high coefficient, but the topic is comparing the relative strength of the premier league.
 

Daysleeper

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Half of the finalists over the past three years have been English compared to only one Spanish side. United also had the CL finalist and semi finalists in their group, but we're not talking about United anyway. You can thank Madrid for that high coefficient, but the topic is comparing the relative strength of the premier league.
nah, Atletico helped as well, Barca were in the semis in 2019 and Sevilla dominated Europa.
The relative strength of the epl is overrated. City dominate epl but fall apart in CL. I think it’s a good fun league to watch, great pace, but people see it as the end all be all for football leagues is a bit much.
 

Daysleeper

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Half of the finalists over the past three years have been English compared to only one Spanish side. United also had the CL finalist and semi finalists in their group, but we're not talking about United anyway. You can thank Madrid for that high coefficient, but the topic is comparing the relative strength of the premier league.
fair enough
 

Raredaredevil

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Just because you are performing well in your domestic league doesn't mean you will also do well in Europe. Let's not forget City struggled for the first 2 seasons when they entered Champions League, finished bottom of their group in their second season. It could be derived from many factors like the playing style or manager. A good example is Inter Milan, top of their league but their manager is diabolical in Europe. It still remains to be seen if Leicester can get past Slavia Prague and pretty debatable if they can get out of the group stage if they were in the CL this season.
 

RooneyLegend

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The prem is the best but the others are going through a lull at this point. The prem will never pull away because for whatever reason prem sides so love to waste resources.

Overpaying for players and hiring inept coaches isnt something I'm expecting to go away overnight. Sure, City and Pool have their houses in order but everyone else doesn't.

We are the poster child of that foolishness. Chelsea seam to want to leave that behind. Spurs are messing about and Arsenal are rudderless. This dominance is built on quicksand.
 

Infordin

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There are only two good teams on this planet. Bayern and Man City

everyone else ranges from acceptably mediocre to borderline dogshit
 

RooneyLegend

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There are only two good teams on this planet. Bayern and Man City

everyone else ranges from acceptably mediocre to borderline dogshit
PSG and Pool at full strength are also in that group. The rest you are right about.
 

Classical Mechanic

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Disagree completely, PL is only "the best league in the world" because of nonsense marketing. Liverpool have been good in CL in 2018 and 2019, but over the past ten years only two PL teams have won CL. All top 5 leagues are on a downswing, but this is the weakest PL since 2016. La Liga is at its worst in 15 years or so.
No you dont, you think West Ham can challenge anyone in Europe? The delusion from PL fans is staggering. Leicester struggled in CL too, just stop. I agree that Spanish football is falling off a cliff.
The 2019 CL campaign by English sides was one of the strongest ever with all 4 finalists from England, the first time that’s ever happened. I think England as many coefficient points that season as Spain did when they had their most dominant season in recent years.

I think this season could possibly be very dominant too given how the first knockout games have gone. England will top the 5 year coefficients at the end of the season so I think it would be logical to call it the strongest league currently. Over the past 4 years the PL has been ascending whilst Spain La Liga had been slowing. This season La Liga looks to be in crisis.

https://www.uefa.com/memberassociations/uefarankings/country/#/yr/2021

Leicester didn’t struggle. They won their group, knocked out Sevilla in the round of 16 and lost 2-1 to A Madrid in the quarters. A very respectable first campaign and somewhat surprising given how badly they were doing domestically.
 

Daysleeper

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The 2019 CL campaign by English sides was one of the strongest ever with all 4 finalists from England, the first time that’s ever happened. I think England as many coefficient points that season as Spain did when they had their most dominant season in recent years.

I think this season could possibly be very dominant too given how the first knockout games have gone. England will top the 5 year coefficients at the end of the season so I think it would be logical to call it the strongest league currently. Over the past 4 years the PL has been ascending whilst Spain La Liga had been slowing. This season La Liga looks to be in crisis.

https://www.uefa.com/memberassociations/uefarankings/country/#/yr/2021

Leicester didn’t struggle. They won their group, knocked out Sevilla in the round of 16 and lost 2-1 to A Madrid in the quarters. A very respectable first campaign and somewhat surprising given how badly they were doing domestically.
2019 was an outlier for English teams. Leicester haven’t been back to CL since losing to Atletico. In 2020 the team that wrapped up the PL earlier than any other team in history got knocked out by what was at the time the seventh best side in Spain. Man City lost to a mid table French team.
Club coefficient wise we don’t see an English team until #6:

https://www.uefa.com/memberassociations/uefarankings/club/#/yr/2021

I do agree that Spain is declining overall and that PL is faring better in CL in recent years.
 

Daysleeper

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There are only two good teams on this planet. Bayern and Man City

everyone else ranges from acceptably mediocre to borderline dogshit
Yup, as far as elite footballing teams go this is a very weak era. But on the flip side it makes for a more open CL on paper which is a good thing
 

Lentwood

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Of course the PL is stronger overall than the other European leagues.

Teams like Brighton and Villa regularly top the “net-spend” charts an we have newly-promoted teams throwing tens of millions around. You can guarantee the bottom 7/8 teams in Spain, Italy and France aren’t spending £25m+ on one player
 

Wumminator

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Of course the PL is stronger overall than the other European leagues.

Teams like Brighton and Villa regularly top the “net-spend” charts an we have newly-promoted teams throwing tens of millions around. You can guarantee the bottom 7/8 teams in Spain, Italy and France aren’t spending £25m+ on one player
Surprised that someone from West Didsbury would be so English positive. Don't you lot normally eat 20.00 breakfasts at the Met and talk about how vile football is.
 

adexkola

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Of course the PL is stronger overall than the other European leagues.

Teams like Brighton and Villa regularly top the “net-spend” charts an we have newly-promoted teams throwing tens of millions around. You can guarantee the bottom 7/8 teams in Spain, Italy and France aren’t spending £25m+ on one player
Spend doesn't correlate to quality. Plus midtable sides usually buy dross not wanted by their continental equivalents
 

Oly Francis

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Of course the PL is stronger overall than the other European leagues.

Teams like Brighton and Villa regularly top the “net-spend” charts an we have newly-promoted teams throwing tens of millions around. You can guarantee the bottom 7/8 teams in Spain, Italy and France aren’t spending £25m+ on one player
I've randomly checked the biggest transfers ever of a team like Nimes, currently 17th/20 in Ligue 1, it's 4m.
 

Classical Mechanic

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2019 was an outlier for English teams. Leicester haven’t been back to CL since losing to Atletico. In 2020 the team that wrapped up the PL earlier than any other team in history got knocked out by what was at the time the seventh best side in Spain. Man City lost to a mid table French team.
Club coefficient wise we don’t see an English team until #6:

https://www.uefa.com/memberassociations/uefarankings/club/#/yr/2021

I do agree that Spain is declining overall and that PL is faring better in CL in recent years.
Last season was an anomoly due to a global black swan event that disrupted the season in unprecedented ways. If there's any single season of European football that has * next to it then it is most certainly the 2019/20 season. Even so The Spanish, German and English leagues all got very similar coefficient points overall.

I think that the coefficients are the best and most reliable measure as they eliminate arguments like this

In 2020 the team that wrapped up the PL earlier than any other team in history got knocked out by what was at the time the seventh best side in Spain

Which could go on all day.

The team rankings are interesting. As you say, England has struggled for any one side to become one of the consistently elite in Europe but in the top 20 sides in Europe there are more English sides than from any other league with 6 (positioned from 6-14). Spain has 4, Italy 3 and Germany 2. That's indicative of what is the strength of the Premier League - its depth. The depth is a double edged sword in a debate like this. Whilst it makes for a better league in isolation, it hinders the English sides chances of creating a kind of superclub hegemony akin to Bayern, Real or Barca in recent years. Although I do worry City might in the coming years when they sign Messi. Add that to their vast economic power whilst most of Europe will be in a weak position because of Covid.
 

11101

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No you dont, you think West Ham can challenge anyone in Europe? The delusion from PL fans is staggering. Leicester struggled in CL too, just stop. I agree that Spanish football is falling off a cliff.
West Ham have been in the top 4 for five minutes and wont be there by the end of the season.

The established big clubs in England are more than capable of challenging. Two years ago the finalists in both the CL and EL were all English clubs. Almost every season all four teams reach the knockouts.
 

Daysleeper

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West Ham have been in the top 4 for five minutes and wont be there by the end of the season.

The established big clubs in England are more than capable of challenging. Two years ago the finalists in both the CL and EL were all English clubs. Almost every season all four teams reach the knockouts.
disagree. City is the only legit contender for CL. Anyone else would feel like a repeat of 2012 chelsea. 2019 was an outlier, prior to that you barely had English teams reaching the semis after 2012 aside from Liverpool.
 

Daysleeper

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Last season was an anomoly due to a global black swan event that disrupted the season in unprecedented ways. If there's any single season of European football that has * next to it then it is most certainly the 2019/20 season. Even so The Spanish, German and English leagues all got very similar coefficient points overall.

I think that the coefficients are the best and most reliable measure as they eliminate arguments like this

In 2020 the team that wrapped up the PL earlier than any other team in history got knocked out by what was at the time the seventh best side in Spain

Which could go on all day.

The team rankings are interesting. As you say, England has struggled for any one side to become one of the consistently elite in Europe but in the top 20 sides in Europe there are more English sides than from any other league with 6 (positioned from 6-14). Spain has 4, Italy 3 and Germany 2. That's indicative of what is the strength of the Premier League - its depth. The depth is a double edged sword in a debate like this. Whilst it makes for a better league in isolation, it hinders the English sides chances of creating a kind of superclub hegemony akin to Bayern, Real or Barca in recent years. Although I do worry City might in the coming years when they sign Messi. Add that to their vast economic power whilst most of Europe will be in a weak position because of Covid.
Solid response, cheers
 

11101

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disagree. City is the only legit contender for CL. Anyone else would feel like a repeat of 2012 chelsea. 2019 was an outlier, prior to that you barely had English teams reaching the semis after 2012 aside from Liverpool.
English teams reaching the knockout stages of the CL (Spanish teams in brackets):

2020: 4 (4)
2019: 4 (3)
2018: 5 (3)
2017: 3 (4)
2016: 3 (3)
2015: 3 (3)
2014: 4 (3)
2013: 2 (4)
2012: 2 (2)
2011: 4 (3)

You'll hear no arguments against the PL being poor for a few years after SAF's retirement, but in the last few years it has gotten strong again. Despite the virtually guaranteed appearance of Barcelona and Madrid, and the relative underperformance of the PL in the early 2010s, only twice in the last 10 years have Spain had more teams in the knockouts than England.
 

NasirTimothy

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I chose the starters because generally they’re generally the best players. English sides have been guilty of using their wealth to pad out their squads with lower quality foreign players that are ‘experienced’. I think that’s the key difference along with the lesser English sides having the money to buy foreign talent whereas smaller clubs abroad are less able to do so. All this has led to England having the best second tier competition in Europe and the best lower professional divisions in Europe.

England does have a lot of depth. I think you can tell that by looking at how they qualify for nearly every single European youth tournament finals. Constantly getting quality across a broad range of age groups is indicative of depth.

In the late 70s and early 80s 3 English sides won 7 out of 8 European Cups and the English national team was probably the worst it has ever been. Bundesliga sides have only won 8 between them in the entire history of European football, despite being the most successful European nation at international level. the late 70s and early 80s 3 English sides won 7 out of 8 European Cups and the English national team was probably the worst it has ever been. Bundesliga sides have only won 8 between them in the entire history of European football, despite being the most successful European nation at international level.

All that said, I wouldn’t argue against the idea that the recently passed generation of Spanish football at international level and club level was the best generation of football ever.
I think English clubs probably benefitted from having Scottish, Welsh and Irish players available to them. Plus the backwards FA refused to pick the most gifted English players and managers at the time (Clough, Currie, Hudson, Osgood, George, Bowles, Worthington, Marsh etc) and tapped Revie to continue Ramsay’s ill-fated 4-4-2 pragmatism because it worked once at home in ‘66. But I take your point.
 

Classical Mechanic

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I think English clubs probably benefitted from having Scottish, Welsh and Irish players available to them. Plus the backwards FA refused to pick the most gifted English players and managers at the time (Clough, Currie, Hudson, Osgood, George, Bowles, Worthington, Marsh etc) and tapped Revie to continue Ramsay’s ill-fated 4-4-2 pragmatism because it worked once at home in ‘66. But I take your point.
That's true but then the population of the UK is slightly less than France and a quite a bit smaller than the population of Germany. Do those countries benefit from being larger countries than England then? Imagine how good a Great Britain football team would have been over the ages.

Another indicator of the depth of quality in English football is that in the 2016 Euros there were almost as many English born players playing for other sides that qualified as there were in the England squad.
 

Hansinity

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Disagree completely, PL is only "the best league in the world" because of nonsense marketing. Liverpool have been good in CL in 2018 and 2019, but over the past ten years only two PL teams have won CL. All top 5 leagues are on a downswing, but this is the weakest PL since 2016. La Liga is at its worst in 15 years or so.
Best league in the world doesn't necessarily need to have the Champions league winner, at least for me.

I agree that the PL is weak now, so are the others as you stated correctly.

PL is the best league because of the money. But considering they have so much more money, they aren't performing as they should though.. But I expect Liverpool to bounce back next season and there will be a strong duo top team again instead of one. I also strongly believe Chelsea will be come a top team under Tuchel again.
 
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Demyanenko_square_jaw

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There are only two good teams on this planet. Bayern and Man City

everyone else ranges from acceptably mediocre to borderline dogshit
Here we have it. Proof that sometimes being too wrapped up in the "struggles" of the absolute elite of football can completely rot your mind and ability to maintain perspectiveon/appreciate the sport as a whole.
 

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That's true but then the population of the UK is slightly less than France and a quite a bit smaller than the population of Germany. Do those countries benefit from being larger countries than England then? Imagine how good a Great Britain football team would have been over the ages.

Another indicator of the depth of quality in English football is that in the 2016 Euros there were almost as many English born players playing for other sides that qualified as there were in the England squad.
A historical Great Britain team is a fascinating prospect, but if the body in charge of it was anything like the English FA then George Best would have been capped about 5 times.

Re the depth of English players, I don’t know the figures, but what I have observed over the years is that the cream of the crop in England has not been as good as other countries. Even with this current generation, it remains to be seen how good they will be.
 

Josh 76

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Best league in the world doesn't necessarily need to have the Champions league winner, at least for me.

I agree that the PL is weak now, so are the others as you stated correctly.

PL is the best league because of the money. But considering they have so much more money, they aren't performing as they should though.. But I expect Liverpool to bounce back next season and there will be a strong duo top team again instead of one. I also strongly believe Chelsea will be come a top team under Tuchel again.
And Utd under ole.
 

hasanejaz88

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Regarding the coefficients argument, I did some analysis a while back to see how the top countries did with regards to UEFA coefficients (this is including data up until the 2019/20 completed season):

The table shows the 5 year average yearly coefficient ranking for the top 4 leagues:

90-9595-0000-0505-1010-1515-20
Spain
4.60​
2​
1.6​
2​
1.6​
1.4​
England
7.20​
5.4​
2.8​
2.2​
2.6​
2​
Germany
4.40​
4.4​
6.2​
4​
2.6​
3.2​
Italy
1.20​
2.4​
3​
4​
4.2​
4​

  • You can see the steady rise of the EPL from being far below the rest in the 90's to being amongst the best in the 2000's and beyond.
  • What's interesting though is that never, over a 5 year stretch, has England consistently been above the La Liga, who have dominated from the mid 90's onwards.
  • Even in the mid 2000's, when the EPL had UCL finalists in every year from 2004 to 2009, the La Liga has on average done better than the EPL. This reflects the importance of the Europa League on these coefficients, where England had never done well up until the mid 2010's with Chelsea winning twice and United winning once. Teams get equal points for winning matches in the EL and UCL.
  • Also plain to see is the decline of the Serie A from being far ahead in the early 90's to being the 4th best from the mid 2000's onwards. This is generally why I don't agree with the notion people have that the Serie A was the best league in the early 2000's, it was clear that a decline was beginning from the mid 2000's.
  • The Bundesliga suffered a massive dip in the early 00's, despite Bayern Munich and Leverkusen reaching consecutive finals. This is heavily drawn on the 2003/04 season when the BL ranked an abysmal 15th(!) in coefficients for that year.
  • After that dip though, the BL steadily rised in the late 00's to a peak in the early 2010's when they were equal to the EPL in average coefficient rankings. Even for the later part of 2010's they are slightly behind the EPL and it is influenced by the 2017/18 season when they came 6th in ranking.

Overall, counting coefficients from 1990, it seems the La Liga overall has been the best league in terms of coefficients. The EPL has a lot of ground to make up from the 90's when they were far behind the rest but have more than made up in the 2000's and beyond. La Liga has consistently been amongst the top 2 from 90's onwards and that consistency keeps them at number 1 overall. The BL has also cemented it's place as the 3rd best over it's rise from the mid 00's, which has coincided with Serie A's decline.


 

Classical Mechanic

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Regarding the coefficients argument, I did some analysis a while back to see how the top countries did with regards to UEFA coefficients (this is including data up until the 2019/20 completed season):

The table shows the 5 year average yearly coefficient ranking for the top 4 leagues:

90-9595-0000-0505-1010-1515-20
Spain
4.60​
2​
1.6​
2​
1.6​
1.4​
England
7.20​
5.4​
2.8​
2.2​
2.6​
2​
Germany
4.40​
4.4​
6.2​
4​
2.6​
3.2​
Italy
1.20​
2.4​
3​
4​
4.2​
4​

  • You can see the steady rise of the EPL from being far below the rest in the 90's to being amongst the best in the 2000's and beyond.
  • What's interesting though is that never, over a 5 year stretch, has England consistently been above the La Liga, who have dominated from the mid 90's onwards.
  • Even in the mid 2000's, when the EPL had UCL finalists in every year from 2004 to 2009, the La Liga has on average done better than the EPL. This reflects the importance of the Europa League on these coefficients, where England had never done well up until the mid 2010's with Chelsea winning twice and United winning once. Teams get equal points for winning matches in the EL and UCL.
  • Also plain to see is the decline of the Serie A from being far ahead in the early 90's to being the 4th best from the mid 2000's onwards. This is generally why I don't agree with the notion people have that the Serie A was the best league in the early 2000's, it was clear that a decline was beginning from the mid 2000's.
  • The Bundesliga suffered a massive dip in the early 00's, despite Bayern Munich and Leverkusen reaching consecutive finals. This is heavily drawn on the 2003/04 season when the BL ranked an abysmal 15th(!) in coefficients for that year.
  • After that dip though, the BL steadily rised in the late 00's to a peak in the early 2010's when they were equal to the EPL in average coefficient rankings. Even for the later part of 2010's they are slightly behind the EPL and it is influenced by the 2017/18 season when they came 6th in ranking.

Overall, counting coefficients from 1990, it seems the La Liga overall has been the best league in terms of coefficients. The EPL has a lot of ground to make up from the 90's when they were far behind the rest but have more than made up in the 2000's and beyond. La Liga has consistently been amongst the top 2 from 90's onwards and that consistency keeps them at number 1 overall. The BL has also cemented it's place as the 3rd best over it's rise from the mid 00's, which has coincided with Serie A's decline.


Nice work.
 

Zehner

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Regarding the coefficients argument, I did some analysis a while back to see how the top countries did with regards to UEFA coefficients (this is including data up until the 2019/20 completed season):

The table shows the 5 year average yearly coefficient ranking for the top 4 leagues:

90-9595-0000-0505-1010-1515-20
Spain
4.60​
2​
1.6​
2​
1.6​
1.4​
England
7.20​
5.4​
2.8​
2.2​
2.6​
2​
Germany
4.40​
4.4​
6.2​
4​
2.6​
3.2​
Italy
1.20​
2.4​
3​
4​
4.2​
4​

  • You can see the steady rise of the EPL from being far below the rest in the 90's to being amongst the best in the 2000's and beyond.
  • What's interesting though is that never, over a 5 year stretch, has England consistently been above the La Liga, who have dominated from the mid 90's onwards.
  • Even in the mid 2000's, when the EPL had UCL finalists in every year from 2004 to 2009, the La Liga has on average done better than the EPL. This reflects the importance of the Europa League on these coefficients, where England had never done well up until the mid 2010's with Chelsea winning twice and United winning once. Teams get equal points for winning matches in the EL and UCL.
  • Also plain to see is the decline of the Serie A from being far ahead in the early 90's to being the 4th best from the mid 2000's onwards. This is generally why I don't agree with the notion people have that the Serie A was the best league in the early 2000's, it was clear that a decline was beginning from the mid 2000's.
  • The Bundesliga suffered a massive dip in the early 00's, despite Bayern Munich and Leverkusen reaching consecutive finals. This is heavily drawn on the 2003/04 season when the BL ranked an abysmal 15th(!) in coefficients for that year.
  • After that dip though, the BL steadily rised in the late 00's to a peak in the early 2010's when they were equal to the EPL in average coefficient rankings. Even for the later part of 2010's they are slightly behind the EPL and it is influenced by the 2017/18 season when they came 6th in ranking.

Overall, counting coefficients from 1990, it seems the La Liga overall has been the best league in terms of coefficients. The EPL has a lot of ground to make up from the 90's when they were far behind the rest but have more than made up in the 2000's and beyond. La Liga has consistently been amongst the top 2 from 90's onwards and that consistency keeps them at number 1 overall. The BL has also cemented it's place as the 3rd best over it's rise from the mid 00's, which has coincided with Serie A's decline.


Good work, must read for everyone interested in the topic.
 

Lentwood

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Surprised that someone from West Didsbury would be so English positive. Don't you lot normally eat 20.00 breakfasts at the Met and talk about how vile football is.
More of a Railway man myself, they show football on the projector at the back :lol:

But yeah...in general West Didsbury considers itself far too hipster to be into something so uncouth as football
 

SAFMUTD

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No. Liverpool have major injuries and full strength I would say are better than Bayern. Bayern won the COVID champions league of 2020. Overrated team.
Bayern won every single thing that could won last year, 6 thropies. How is that an overrated team?
 

Lentwood

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I'm not sure about all of the talk of UEFA co-efficients and the performance generally of English clubs in Europe, I'm not sure what exactly it proves and could be a big Red Herring.

The reason I say that....take Spain. Generally Barcelona and Real Madrid end up getting all of the best players if they want them badly enough. Same with Bayern in Germany. Same with PSG in France. Same with Juventus in Italy. So of course, these teams are bound to be strong, regardless of how good or bad their respective domestic leagues are in any given season.

Now look at the Premier League. All of our clubs are filthy rich and it costs mega-money to prise a player away from a rival. This means that the talent gets spread more thinly. Imagine you made two squads from the players available to Man Utd, Man City, Chelsea, Liverpool and Spurs. Those two squads would be outrageously good.

That's before you even consider teams who largely outperform the 'sum of their parts' like Leicester (and West Ham this season) and add their players into the mix.

In the PL, you have top quality players like Neto, Coady and Jiminez at Wolves, Vardy, Schmeichel, Ndidi, Barnes and Maddison at Leicester, Rice at West Ham, Grealish and Mings at Aston Villa etc.... If it wasn't for the fact our mid-table clubs are cash-rich compared to their European counterparts these players would have been transferred by now for middling fees. Sure, some of them wouldn't have made the step-up or they would have ended up on the bench for top clubs but my point is still valid.

I think the very fact the PL is so competitive actually makes it MORE unlikely that one of our teams would dominate European competition for so long.

However, overall, you take our bottom ten teams and pitch them against the bottom ten in France, Spain, Germany, Italy...I reckon our PL lads would fill out the top ten spaces!
 

Wumminator

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More of a Railway man myself, they show football on the projector at the back :lol:

But yeah...in general West Didsbury considers itself far too hipster to be into something so uncouth as football
oh my days.

the Railway is my local. I go in there most games.

you will know the old couple who always come in late, or the taxi driver Man City fan who always speaks to everyone or even remember Chloe the barmaid who used to give us free nibbles now and then.
 
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I'm not sure about all of the talk of UEFA co-efficients and the performance generally of English clubs in Europe, I'm not sure what exactly it proves and could be a big Red Herring.

The reason I say that....take Spain. Generally Barcelona and Real Madrid end up getting all of the best players if they want them badly enough. Same with Bayern in Germany. Same with PSG in France. Same with Juventus in Italy. So of course, these teams are bound to be strong, regardless of how good or bad their respective domestic leagues are in any given season.

Now look at the Premier League. All of our clubs are filthy rich and it costs mega-money to prise a player away from a rival. This means that the talent gets spread more thinly. Imagine you made two squads from the players available to Man Utd, Man City, Chelsea, Liverpool and Spurs. Those two squads would be outrageously good.

That's before you even consider teams who largely outperform the 'sum of their parts' like Leicester (and West Ham this season) and add their players into the mix.

In the PL, you have top quality players like Neto, Coady and Jiminez at Wolves, Vardy, Schmeichel, Ndidi, Barnes and Maddison at Leicester, Rice at West Ham, Grealish and Mings at Aston Villa etc.... If it wasn't for the fact our mid-table clubs are cash-rich compared to their European counterparts these players would have been transferred by now for middling fees. Sure, some of them wouldn't have made the step-up or they would have ended up on the bench for top clubs but my point is still valid.

I think the very fact the PL is so competitive actually makes it MORE unlikely that one of our teams would dominate European competition for so long.

However, overall, you take our bottom ten teams and pitch them against the bottom ten in France, Spain, Germany, Italy...I reckon our PL lads would fill out the top ten spaces!
very good post.

there’s a distinction between a competitive league and that translating into performances in Europe.

the PL is by far the most competitive league in Europe - and you’ve outlined why that doesn’t mean the top clubs necessarily then perform better in Europe.

it’s not just that clubs can get players if they want in Germany, France, Spain. It’s that if you are a decent player in one of these countries, there are very few options if you want to be successful, so players keep piling into the same top clubs.

if you are playing for Brighton (no disrespect to them) - and you are making the step up, you have 7/8 clubs that can realistically pitch to you and take you to that next level. In France, there’s one...
 

Zehner

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very good post.

there’s a distinction between a competitive league and that translating into performances in Europe.

the PL is by far the most competitive league in Europe - and you’ve outlined why that doesn’t mean the top clubs necessarily then perform better in Europe.

it’s not just that clubs can get players if they want in Germany, France, Spain. It’s that if you are a decent player in one of these countries, there are very few options if you want to be successful, so players keep piling into the same top clubs.

if you are playing for Brighton (no disrespect to them) - and you are making the step up, you have 7/8 clubs that can realistically pitch to you and take you to that next level. In France, there’s one...
There are many class players at second/third tier clubs in Germany and Spain, too. It's not unique to the EPL. I wouldn't have thought of Coady, Jimenez or Ndidi as class players since I don't really watch their teams but I expect the same is true the other way round, too. Every league has hidden gems 'foreigners' don't really know much about.
 
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There are many class players at second/third tier clubs in Germany and Spain, too. It's not unique to the EPL. I wouldn't have thought of Coady, Jimenez or Ndidi as class players since I don't really watch their teams but I expect the same is true the other way round, too. Every league has hidden gems 'foreigners' don't really know much about.
how many German clubs can spend £30-50m on a player? (Before Covid, as we really don’t know the long term effect in the market yet).

in the PL you have Utd, City, Liverpool, Spurs, Everton, Arsenal Chelsea. How many top clubs are there in Germany? Leipzig and Dortmund work on models where they buy young players and sell them on.

im personally not talking about hidden gems, but when the likes of Everton can splash £50m in Richarlson - then it makes it extremely competitive.