The Road Trip Draft R1: MJJ vs Sjor Bepo

Discussion in 'Draft Games Forum' started by Moby, Nov 2, 2018.

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Who will win the match based on players at their peaks?

Poll closed Nov 3, 2018.
  1. MJJ

    55.0%
  2. Sjor Bepo

    45.0%
  1. Nov 2, 2018
    #1

    Moby Dick who hates the homeless

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    MJJ --------------------------------------VS-----------------------------------Sjor Bepo

    MJJ Tactics

    The team is built around the two best winger in the history of football, with best their only rival. To maximize the talent of the duo, I have the master of the long pass,scholes, at the base of my midfield, with two of the best box to box midfielders for company. Kocsis will stretch the defense and give room to the duo to operate while being a good goal scoring outlet for crosses and threaded passes.

    Why I will win

    Sjor has a wonderful side, with a fearsome CB duo of scirea, stam, xavi controlling the midfield and henry, eusebio, kopa running wild in attack. The match will be close as there isn't a lot between the two sides. However, I feel there are small areas in the match where I will have the edge which should decide the match.

    • Vierchowod is well suited to shankle eusebio having performed well againt ronaldo as a 40 year old who is stylistically similar but better.
    • Cole and Lahm aren't well suited for the tasks here and won't get much help from their wingers.
    • Xavi and Monti don't seem to be enough for my midfield particularly as Monti wasn't the harrassing type which should allow scholes to insert his influence on the match and keep picking out my wingers.


    Sjor Bepo Tactics

    Formation
    : Fluid 4-3-3 base that can transition to 4-4-2 in defensive situations if need be.

    Defense

    El Buldog José Chilavert acts as the last line of defense. An excellent shot stopper who was also renowned for his distribution, he was named World Goalkeeper of the Year by the IFFHS in 1995, 1997, and 1998 and the #2 goalkeeper from South America overall.

    Puppeteering the defense is perhaps the greatest defensive organizer in football history - Gatenao Scirea. Aside from his obviously titanic aura as a grandmaster of the art of pure defending, Scirea brings excellent control to the backline given his nigh unmatched ability to leave an imprint on the entire structure in inimitable fashion and orchestrate his team from the defensive third. Partnering him in a consummate sweeper-stopper pairing is the athletic and robust Jaap Stam - an uncompromising defender who's unlikely to yield an inch and primarily tasked with limiting Kocsis' heading ability or covering for Scirea.

    On the right side of defense is the cerebral and positionally perfect Philipp Lahm. Considered by many to be the greatest rightback in Mannschaft history by now, Lahm brings an extra possession option to the right flank - on top of organisational nous and experience in the highest levels of football at both club and national team level. On the opposite flank is arguably the best leftback of the 2000s decade overall, Ashley Cole. There are very few leftbacks you would trust to deal with Garrincha - Cole is one of those select few given his defensive nous, athleticism and covering range (with the likes of Maldini and Lizarazu). This isn't to say Garrincha will be nullified, only that his influence will be more limited, and then there's the excellent Scirea to restrain him further once he's past the primary filter.

    Midfield

    At the base of the midfield is Argentinian/Italian maestro Luis Monti, not only a great DM and marker, but also a perceptive passer of the ball to more advanced or technical players.

    https://thesefootballtimes.co/2018/...n-world-cup-finals-for-two-different-nations/

    Just ahead of him is the architect of two of the greatest teams in football history, Barcelona and Spain - Xavi. The heartbeat, the metronome, the brain of the team - his brilliance existed beyond the words and the numbers, out of reach of post-game reports and superficial statistics. On the left is the absurdly gifted Rivelino - who dazzled with an endless repertoire of moves, including his patented Elastico, and serves as the perfect, tactically malleable needle player in transitions to complement Xavi.

    Attack

    Spearheading the attack is The Black Pearl, The Black Panther, O Rei, whatever you want to call him. 11 times Ballon D'Or nominee, multiple Golden Boot winner, a frightening one man army, Eusébio didn't even need any help to demolish a defense. Versatile and nimble to boot with top-notch movement, passing, and dribbling skills, apart from providing a comprehensive goal outlet - 679 goals in 678 games per FIFA. In the left floater position is the immaculate Thierry Henry - able to dribble past opponents with exceptional pace, skill and composure, and a fabulous creator - with 50 assists between 2002–03 and 2004–05. And on the right is Le Napoléon du Football, Raymond Kopa - one of the greatest players of all time and a Ballon D'Or winner (also once #2 and twice #3), Kopa was renowned for his passing and dribbling as a free-role advanced playmaker - serving as the ideal complement to the more direct Eusébio and Henry.

    Kopa had a fantastic ability for dribbling at close quarters and a great intelligence on the pitch which made him a regular on the right wing for Real Madrid when they started to conquer Europe. Along with Rial, Di Stéfano, Puskas and Gento, he was part of one of the most fearsome forward lines in football. The Frenchman used to laugh when asked how much those five players would cost today and said that “it would be impossible to calculate”.

    "Raymond Kopa did magic, amazing things that you didn't think possible," recalls teammate Juan Santisteban.

    "He was a great player: strong, powerful, skillful," Di Stéfano added. "He was extraordinary, dribbling the ball all over the place."

    Kopa once described himself as "the greatest collective individualist in French football." He gave his team relief, the chance to breathe. He created, too. At Madrid, Pepe Santamaría recalled, "There would be moments when we were overwhelmed, under pressure, and he would start to dribble. With him there on the wing, with the ball, we could recover."
    https://www.realmadrid.com/en/about-real-madrid/history/football-legends/raymond-kopaszewski

    All in all, the attack has a bit of everything - searing pace, individual and collective brilliance, creativity in spades, end product, the ability to get behind defensive lines, beat defenders in 1v1/1v2 situations or run rings around them...
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2018
  2. Nov 2, 2018
    #2

    Moby Dick who hates the homeless

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  3. Nov 2, 2018
    #3

    Šjor Bepo Full Member

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    good luck @MJJ , lovely team as well so its going to be hard to argue as i like the lot.

    Only thing i can say that there is a bit more unpredictability in my team as the intention was to create a fluid system with a lot of movement and position interchange, personally i just think those sides when they are at their best are much more hard to defend.
  4. Nov 2, 2018
    #4

    Šjor Bepo Full Member

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    guy that never gets much credit in drafts for some bizarre reason, Raymond Kopa.

    Balon d'Or

    1956
    1. Stanley Matthews
    2. Alfredo Di Stefano
    3. Raymond Kopa

    1957
    1. Alfredo Di Stefano
    2. Billy Wright
    3. Raymond Kopa and Duncan Edwards

    1958
    1. Raymond Kopa
    2. Helmut Rahn
    3. Just Fontaine

    1959
    1. Alfredo Di Stefano
    2. Raymond Kopa
    3. John Charles

  5. Nov 2, 2018
    #5

    Šjor Bepo Full Member

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    @Moby quotes are missing from the OP, can you please add them
  6. Nov 2, 2018
    #6

    MJJ New Member

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    I would agree with you, that your system is a a lot more fluid. However that does have its drawbacks as defensively it can expose your side.

    As a duo, I don't think xavi and monti are enough to handle my trio whereas dzajic and garrincha will roast any fullback they are up against.

    On the other hand, I love the synergy between your attacking quadrant and think the formation gif does a wonderful job of capturing it.

    Also agree that kopa is underrated here, should be viewed on a similar level to Platini.
  7. Nov 2, 2018
    #7

    Šjor Bepo Full Member

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    Xavi is probably the best defensive player ever among playmakers/offensive midfielders, reckon him and Monti are more then capable of holding their own against Scholes who is going to play deep and Falcao. Cant say i know much about Andrade but i thought he is a more defensive player, at least i hope he is for your sake as you need one next to Scholes and Falcao :)
    and dont forget Rivelino, at times he will make a midfield three with Monti and Xavi, Kopa also has capabilities of dropping into midfield.

    Great pair of wingers for sure but they are also against great fits, you could hand pick better fits for Garrincha then Ashley Cole who was amazing defensive wise and is one of the best 1v1 defenders we saw.
    Lahm is just on another level, while at his peak i never ever saw him having a bad game and most of the games i watched were against top opposition.
  8. Nov 2, 2018
    #8

    MJJ New Member

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    Xavi is great yes but he needs a system around him, the great barca side had him, Iniesta and busquets to stifle the opposition and even the Spanish side had senna behind him. You are basically asking him to be your sides playmaker and defensive organiser. A role he has never played.

    How are you dealing with Scholes playing deep btw? Looks to me like he has a lot of time and space to pick out long passes and thread through balls.

    Rivelino I am not if he will fit in well in a Xavi mid, seems a lot more direct and will lose the ball and I don't think your midfield has the speed to get back.

    Andrade was a defensive box to box, and a great one at that.

    I disagree that cole is well suited to handle garrincha alone, you either need a team rffort or somebody like Maldini. One on one garrincha will destroy him.

    Dzajic on the other hand has proven his quality against the likes of vogts, players who are better defensively than lahm.
  9. Nov 2, 2018
    #9

    antohan gets aroused by tagline boobs

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    I'm not sure I grasp how either midfield will work. Get more questions than answers looking at them.
  10. Nov 2, 2018
    #10

    Šjor Bepo Full Member

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    From what we can read about Monti, he is the ultimate Senna version + he has similar system around himself and Rivelino to help out. I ask nothing of him that he already didnt showcase on the highest level.

    Depending on situation, sometimes he would be pressed sometimes would be let alone. We have the benefit of letting both of your centerbacks alone while you are in possession so who ever is up top will harass Scholes.

    Disagree on Rivelino.

    Cole faced GOAT wingers before and more often then not he was on the top. He wont be alone in the battle, both Monti and Scirea will help out and secure the zones behind/next to him. Obviously sometimes he would be let alone in 1v1 and while Garrincha will get some joy out of it, it wont be as much as it would be against most fullbacks as Cole is fantastic at defending 1v1.

    Lahm proved himself against better wingers then Dzajic, what does that argument prove? At the end of the day, Lahm is a much better fullback then Dzajic is a winger and IMO that might be completely wrong he will be to much for him. Football IQ second to none, perfection tactically, great defending ability.

    And even when both Garrincha and Dzajic get the better of Cole and Lahm, given the quality of defenders its going to most likely be on the outside so when they cross the ball there is Kocsis(177) who is great in the air tbf against another beast in the air in Jaap Stam(191) and there is not much secondary threat in your team from attacking the box in those situations.
  11. Nov 2, 2018
    #11

    MJJ New Member

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    Sorry before I address the rest, who are these better wingers that lahm proved himself against? :lol:

    Also, a better fullback than dzajic is a winger? :lol: find me one ranking which has lahm in the top five fullbacks of all time because I can find loads with dzajic.
  12. Nov 2, 2018
    #12

    Šjor Bepo Full Member

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    its not like i did a research before i posted but surely in his 10+ year peak period he faced a GOAT winger, if nothing else he faced Ronaldo.
  13. Nov 2, 2018
    #13

    Šjor Bepo Full Member

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    Thats my opinion, feel free to disagree.

    btw we going to use smileys for everything we disagree on? if thats the case im sure we can both use them in every post and only thing we will achieve is that we will both get a headache from them.
  14. Nov 2, 2018
    #14

    MJJ New Member

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    Lahm never faced against Ronaldo at United and you can't call the Madrid version of him as a GOAT winger.
  15. Nov 2, 2018
    #15

    MJJ New Member

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    Just the statements that deserve them.

    Isn't the whole point of the forum to back your statements.
  16. Nov 2, 2018
    #16

    GodShaveTheQueen Full Member

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    Quite a few fairly ridiculous things to say in that post.
    I would place Lahm in the top 5 rightbacks of all time for sure.
    A few great wingers for starters.

    https://miasanrot.de/wp-content/upl...mpions-League-Bayern-Munich-v-Inter-Milan.jpg

    http://www2.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/Arjen+Robben+Philipp+Lahm+Netherlands+v+Germany+OTKZ1ggk8X6l.jpg

    https://media.gettyimages.com/photo...=ENL1BU2y5nhj8brRsa97rkmri76-mdW6G5J_mWKWBz4=

    You could include more like Neymar/Messi etc but why bother.
  17. Nov 2, 2018
    #17

    Šjor Bepo Full Member

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    He was still playing from the wing position but ok, if you want a classic dribbler you can go with Robben as i cant be bothered to search for others. New draft low when you realize you have to defend Lahm GOAT status.

    vs Robben
  18. Nov 2, 2018
    #18

    Šjor Bepo Full Member

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    When i say Lahm is a better fullback then Dzajic is a winger how exactly do i back that statement? Ever popular comparison of team achievements? Better highlight reel? Stats? Sites that will tell you how Jan Popluhar is a better defender then Rio?
    Im telling you mine opinion based on watching both, you can agree or disagree but i cant see a valuable way to back that particular statement.
  19. Nov 2, 2018
    #19

    MJJ New Member

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    Not defend his GOAT status but defend the fact that he has faced better wingers than dzajic. Although I am getting the impression it's more that you underage dzajic than anything else, will post a few anecdotes and videos.
  20. Nov 2, 2018
    #20

    MJJ New Member

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    Well dzajic is considered among the top three left wingers ever so Lahm, if he is a better fullback, should be considered the same?
  21. Nov 2, 2018
    #21
    Some guys get way too confused in How to determine whether a player will get the better of another player. In that respect, the benefit of the doubt usually goes to the attacker, so dzajic will likely do more damage than Lahm in this game. That being said, there are few more intelligent defenders in history than Lahm and it has to be taken into consideration that the most likely first outcome in this match is dzajic being frustrated at lahms tenacity.

    Whenever ronaldo comes up against nesta, it’s the same videos that appear and everyone just assumes that R9 will always get the better. In reality, anyone who has watched that entire game will see that nesta did plenty right and dealt with Ronaldo with ease a few times. Doesn’t matter though, because you can’t score goals defending.
  22. Nov 2, 2018
    #22

    harms Way Staff

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    Closer to Rivera than Platini in my book. From what I've seen I don't think that Kopa was as comfortable as Platini deeper in midfield and Platini was also a more prolific scorer (as well as being the top man everywhere he went). It's a bit unfair to Kopa since he competed with the likes of Di Stefano and Puskas, but it's still a point to Platini.
  23. Nov 2, 2018
    #23

    Šjor Bepo Full Member

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    No need for Dzajic material, watched almost every game available of him online and few that arent, i mean post for others so you potentially get some votes. I was never really amazed by him, no question he is a great player but top 3 or top 5, never in a million years IMO (will post few in your behalf :lol::lol::lol:)
    Regarding the last part, thats just a bizarre way of looking at it, lets take current state of things as example. Is a 5th best midfielder worse then a fourth best centerback?
  24. Nov 2, 2018
    #24

    Šjor Bepo Full Member

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    yeah id agree with this, Platini is and should be considered as a better player and while we are on him, he is probably most underrated GOAT in football, Platini not Kopa.
  25. Nov 2, 2018
    #25
    @MJJ I just can’t envision scholes having a good game here. Help me understand
  26. Nov 2, 2018
    #26

    Šjor Bepo Full Member

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    I actually like it, tbf a lot depends of Andrade and he is a bit of an enigma, at least to me but if he fits well then i see no issue.
  27. Nov 2, 2018
    #27
    In my mind I’d have them swapped on the graphic. I guess I maybe just don’t envision peak scholes in this role
  28. Nov 2, 2018
    #28

    Gio ★★★★★★★★

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    For Sjor I like how Xavi can combine with the full-backs, both of whom are used to a short possession game, and can play relatively high. Scirea too looks like a good fit in that respect. Not quite sure how that neat and tidy build up translates to the attack and I think Monti, Eusebio and to a lesser extent Rivelino and Henry may suit a more direct or vertical style. Finally, Kopa's right-wing position doesn't necessarily play to his strengths. The full-back pair are defensively strong which is paramount given the brilliance of MJJ's wing pair.

    I thought MJJ drafted really well in nabbing those Eastern European gems. The midfield trio seems to triplicate central midfield playmaking duos, and what I know about about Andrade suggests he has some similar tendencies, positional and style, to Falcao. Still a lot of sex there.
  29. Nov 2, 2018
    #29

    MJJ New Member

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    Why not? Scholes primary role is to take the ball from my defenders and act as a conductor for the whole attack.

    Both my defenders aren't the best on the ball and I wanted somebody in that area to launch quick counter attacks. Given his skill set, there are few better at it than scholes.

    Andrade is our primary ball winner and the most defensive astute of the three. During the game, I would expect him to be deeper than scholes (average position) but I have scholes at the bottom to highlight him as my deep lying playmaker.
  30. Nov 2, 2018
    #30

    Enigma_87 You know who

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    I like him in that role flanked by Andrade and Falcao. Both would provide the support and he can move the ball from deep.

    Maybe an arrow pointing forwards to indicate him moving into space would also be good start.
  31. Nov 2, 2018
    #31
    Ok that makes more sense. So in the game he’s roaming around midfield getting himself into space to receive the ball, not necessarily operating from a static DM central position. Got it.
  32. Nov 2, 2018
    #32
    Sorry guys too hard to separate and probably won’t be voting.
  33. Nov 2, 2018
    #33

    MJJ New Member

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    Yeah, Falcao is the box to box andrade is the ball winning mid and scholes is the ball facilitator.
  34. Nov 2, 2018
    #34

    harms Way Staff

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    I always feel weird when people are highlighting Monti's playmaker's capabilities. Even in the given quote his passing ability is seen as a surprising feature in his game because it was not expected of someone that physical and intimidating. And being surprisingly good on the ball for a destroyer (see "perhaps edging towards the defensive side"), especially in the 30's, when the standard of on-the-ball skills for halfbacks was much lower to that of today's midfielders... it's just not enough for me. Although my view on is based on the same few sentences that everyone can read on his wiki page and in a few articles — obviously I have never seen him play, so I can't provide a really knowledgeable comment.
  35. Nov 2, 2018
    #35

    Šjor Bepo Full Member

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    i have exactly the same view and thats one of the reasons i picked him, if i thought he was a proper playmaker or someone similar to lets say Redondo id never go for him when i have Xavi.
  36. Nov 2, 2018
    #36

    Šjor Bepo Full Member

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    Monti in possession is there to keep things simple and play it towards Xavi/Rivelino or one of the fullbacks.
    Xavi for Spain played in a more direct setup then he did for Barca, i thought we went through this xy times in drafts. Tbf its also similar in a way Barca played, Messi at that time(false 9) was one of the most direct players in the world but Xavi dictated when will he go, same applies here as Xavi would control the game and release Eusebio/Henry when its time.
  37. Nov 2, 2018
    #37

    MJJ New Member

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    I actually love that aspect of his side, it's possession football with xavi as the maestro with the feck it option of Henry, kopa and Eusebio just taking off with the ball.

    The one I don't like is rivelino, the rest of the attack gels very well. Henry also played for arsenal who played a brand of football closer to the Spanish sides than the English ones.
  38. Nov 2, 2018
    #38

    MJJ New Member

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    That is true, I rhink kopa had that in him but was never made the main man in the way Platini was. If you look at his skillset, there isn't much he couldn't do.
  39. Nov 2, 2018
    #39

    Šjor Bepo Full Member

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    @Gio forgot about Kopa, He will roam around freely and would act as an offensive glue, Xavi's sidekick of sorts. At times he would find himself on the right(i mean he was fecking brilliant there for Madrid), at times Eusebio would be there, sometimes it would be Lahm providing width. Lots of movement and lots of options.
  40. Nov 2, 2018
    #40

    Don Alfredo Full Member

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    I always read it as "not completely useless in possession", opposite to some of the destroyer's of today like Kante or Javi Martinez. I would never consider him close to someone like Xabi Alonso.

    Regarding the game, I like both sides and have a very hard time to decide. MJJ's midfield could have been problematic because Andrade is sometimes hard to fit in and Scholes as a DM is not very solid, but that role for Andrade fits well I think and there is no constant presence in the number 10 position for Sjor Bepo.

    I think Sjor could have gone for a proper 433 formation, because as it stands Xavi and Monti have a bit of a rough time dealing with the quality on the ball from Scholes, Falcao and Andrade.

    Basically what I am saying is that with Xavi in your side and up against those wingers from MJJ, you want to be the one dominating possession, to use possession as a defensive tool. When they don't have the ball, they can't do any dribblings :wenger: