The shame of the Irish judicial system (The Ciaran Tobin case)

[cinc]

Sorry, for the somewhat inflammatory title, but this case gets on my nerves.

For those who doesnt know the story: in 2007 an Irish executive of an insurance firm working in Hungary was on his way to Budapest by car. When he was crossing a village (Leányfalu) he was speeding and was overtaking in an urban area. He's lost control of his car, ran onto the pavement, where he hit a 2 and a 5 years old kids, both of them died almost immediately.

He was cooperating at first, so in good faith he was not arrested and the police - foolishly - even gave back his passport (at the request of the Irish ambassador). Which he used to flee back to Ireland. In his absence he was sentenced to 3 years in prison, which the option to be released on parole after 18 months.

Hungary is trying to extradite him ever since they joined the EU in 2004, but the Irish judicial system seem to be very favourable to the rich, so they denied all the attempts.

A seemingly final decision was made yesterday on very flimsy grounds:

Man wins appeal against extradition to Hungary over deaths of children - The Irish Times


More on the case on wikipedia.

 

[Decotron]

Shame is a harsh word from my understand of the legal decision.

Probably best to get your facts right. What evidence is there of him fleeing may I ask? Seeing as none was found that is....

 

[Irwinwastheking]

I think you lost a bit of the message you were trying to make with the thread title.

 

[DFreshKing]

Glad I am not the parents of the poor children to see the law and process judged more important than them.

I would say shame no justice for the children more apt title.

 

[cinc]

Shame is a harsh word from my understand of the legal decision.

Probably best to get your facts right. What evidence is there of him fleeing may I ask? Seeing as none was found that is....

He was under investigation, and was told not to leave Hungary. He got back his passport by the direct intervention of the ambassador), it was given back to him for a five hundred thousand HUF deposit (basically he was 'bailed'), an error by the local police authorities that was pressured by your diplomats.

Days after that, his parent company "recalled" him.

He is a fugitive, he cant leave the country as there is an international arrest order against him.

What is not shameful in avoiding (and allowing to avoid) a legal 3 year sentence for killing two kids while driving recklessly in an urban area?

A few years ago an Irish minister was visiting Hungary and he acknowledged in an interview that its a shame that this could happen.

 

[McGrathsipan]

thats a sad story Cinc but the same things happen here to Irish people.
The legal world is fecked up.

Last week a man that killed another man got 5 years, a couple of months ago a man that dodged a bit of tax on imported garlic got 6 years......go figure!

 

[cinc]

thats a sad story Cinc but the same things happen here to Irish people.
The legal world is fecked up.

Last week a man that killed another man got 5 years, a couple of months ago a man that dodged a bit of tax on imported garlic got 6 years......go figure!

This thread was not an attack against the Irish, but the judicial system over there. You seem to agree with me.

I have absolutely no problem with Ireland, I like your literature, beers, some of the music and would like to visit it one day. But I have to admit, this case is the worst PR catastrophe for Ireland in Hungary.

 

[De Selby]

The incident happened in 2000, not 2007 as it says in the OP.

The reason I'm being pedantic is because it may relate to any Statute of Limitations that exists in Hungary. It's 12 years since Tobin was charged (for negligent driving), so I was wondering if the charge may expire due to the passing of time?

I know you're not a lawyer, cinc, but you may be familiar with some of the Hungarian legal system.

 

[thegregster]

This thread was not an attack against the Irish, but the judicial system over there. You seem to agree with me.

I have absolutely no problem with Ireland, I like your literature, beers, some of the music and would like to visit it one day. But I have to admit, this case is the worst PR catastrophe for Ireland in Hungary.

You cant just pick one case and come to the conclusions that you have done. While this case is tragic no legal system is perfect and Hungary like all countries has it share of problems when it comes to legal matters.

THE Venice Commission has pronounced on Hungary’s constitutional changes—and its verdict is damning. The commission, which advises the Council of Europe on constitutional matters, criticises laws on judicial reform, on media oversight and on state recognition of churches.

The new National Judicial Authority draws most fire. Few doubt that Hungary’s legal system needs an overhaul. But no other country has a system as centralised as Hungary’s, says the commission. The head of the authority can pick judges, including replacements for those just forced into retirement, and has a nine-year mandate. It does not help that Tunde Hando, the incumbent, is the wife of a prominent MEP from the ruling right-wing Fidesz party. The office wields too much power for one person, says Thorbjorn Jagland, the Council of Europe’s secretary-general.

The 47-member council is often overshadowed by the European Union. But Mr Jagland’s opinions matter to Hungary. The council’s rulings on legal, media and religious reforms feed into the EU’s assessment of Hungary’s compliance with European law. Hungary wants a €20 billion ($26.5 billion) standby loan from the IMF, which must be signed off by the EU. Mr Jagland is in close touch with José Manuel Barroso, president of the European Commission. This month EU finance ministers suspended €495m of cohesion funds, saying that Hungary would not hit its 2013 deficit target. The decision caused outrage in Budapest, as 23 of the 27 EU members have missed targets in the past but Hungary is the first to be penalised.


Relations soured again after Viktor Orban, the prime minister, gave a blistering speech on March 15th, a national holiday marking the failed 1848 revolution. He told a cheering 200,000-strong crowd that Hungary would not be a “colony”. He compared EU officials to “finely tailored suits” with their Soviet predecessors wearing “a uniform with shoulder patches”. Mr Barroso’s spokeswoman snapped back that Mr Orban did not understand democracy. Such talk certainly will not attract the foreign investment Hungary badly needs, notes a Western official.

Yet behind the scenes Mr Orban and his government are more amenable. There is one voice for the loyal masses, another for the dreaded men in suits. It was Hungarian ministers who invited the Venice Commission to examine their contentious legislation in the first place. Laws on the media and churches have already been relaxed. And the government has submitted revisions to laws on judicial reform that would reduce some of Ms Hando’s powers.

More bad news comes in a report by Transparency International, an anti-corruption NGO. Fidesz has made much of its promises to break the grip of the Socialists’ business networks. But, says the report, one set of Magyar minigarchs has simply been replaced by another; Hungary has been captured by “powerful interest groups”. The government insists it is taking “intensive measures” against sleaze. Anti-corruption commissioners will start work soon. All planned laws will be assessed.

A good place to start would be public procurement. Transparency International says that 65-75% of tenders are affected by corruption. This only fuels support for the far-right Jobbik party, as more voters come to believe that Fidesz and its friends, just like their Socialist predecessors, have carved up Hungary among themselves as if it were a giant salami.

 

[Decotron]

This thread was not an attack against the Irish, but the judicial system over there. You seem to agree with me.

I have absolutely no problem with Ireland, I like your literature, beers, some of the music and would like to visit it one day. But I have to admit, this case is the worst PR catastrophe for Ireland in Hungary.

in your opinion that is....

 

[cinc]

The incident happened in 2000, not 2007 as it says in the OP.

The reason I'm being pedantic is because it may relate to any Statute of Limitations that exists in Hungary. It's 12 years since Tobin was charged (for negligent driving), so I was wondering if the charge may expire due to the passing of time?

I know you're not a lawyer, cinc, but you may be familiar with some of the Hungarian legal system.

Sorry, that was a typo. As he has a proper sentence waiting for him,that statute of limitation does not apply.

 

[cinc]

in your opinion that is....

No, not for me, but for most Hungarians the first thing that comes to mind about Ireland after Guiness is this case

 

[thegregster]

No, not for me, but for most Hungarians the first thing that comes to mind about Ireland after Guiness is this case

So should Irish people think bad of the Hungarian legal system because the same situation would have happened if the roles were reversed?

In his judgment, Mr Justice Hardiman said the second extradition attempt was an abuse of process. A Hungarian national in similar circumstances could not have been extradited to Ireland because Hungary availed of an EU framework decision allowing its citizens to serve time at home for sentences imposed on them abroad, he said.

 

[cinc]

You cant just pick one case and come to the conclusions that you have done. While this case is tragic no legal system is perfect and Hungary like all countries has it share of problems when it comes to legal matters.

The article you quoted is a year old and has factual errors. Hungary is among the 5 countries with the least number of EU infringement procedures . The Venice Commission (to whom Hungary went for preliminary advice) published its findings that the laws in argument are in line with EU directives.

And this is about criminal law, which is in a much finer state than most of the EU. This malarchy could not have happened in Hungary.

 

[cinc]

So should Irish people think bad of the Hungarian legal system because the same situation would have happened if the roles were reversed?

Your judge is actually misinformed. The sentence is only served in Hungary if the two authorities agree on that. Extradition would have happened as it happens in dozens of cases every months. The only exception is that noone can be extradited if a death sentence is on the table.

The most recent high profile case being the arrest in the italian matchfixing scandal.

But even an ex-minister's daughter was extradited into Italy because of charges involving prostitution.

 

[thegregster]

Your judge is actually misinformed. The sentence is only served in Hungary if the two authorities agree on that. Extradition would have happened as it happens in dozens of cases every months. The only exception is that noone can be extradited if a death sentence is on the table.

The most recent high profile case being the arrest in the italian matchfixing scandal.

But even an ex-minister's daughter was extradited into Italy because of charges involving prostitution.

No it wouldnt.

 

[Rooney24]

He was under investigation, and was told not to leave Hungary. He got back his passport by the direct intervention of the ambassador), it was given back to him for a five hundred thousand HUF deposit (basically he was 'bailed'), an error by the local police authorities that was pressured by your diplomats.

Days after that, his parent company "recalled" him.

He is a fugitive, he cant leave the country as there is an international arrest order against him.
What is not shameful in avoiding (and allowing to avoid) a legal 3 year sentence for killing two kids while driving recklessly in an urban area?

A few years ago an Irish minister was visiting Hungary and he acknowledged in an interview that its a shame that this could happen.

While knowing absolutely nothing about this case, arent the parts in bold 100% the fault of the Hungarian authorities for not ensuring that he left the country?

I mean if there is an international arrest order against him, I would have thought at the very least Hungarian border authorities would have been made aware of this?

How was he able to get through the airport or border where he left the country?

 

[cinc]

No he isnt. You are.

Sure, mate. In spite of my evidence to the contrary.

 

[thegregster]

Sure, mate. In spite of my evidence to the contrary.

You have offered no evidence mate. Just your opinion. No link.

What the irish judge said is 100% correct.

He is basically sating that if a Hungarian citizen was charged and convicted in an Irish court while at home in Hungary he has the option of staying at home and serving his sentence their which is 100% correct. Even if he was convicted in Ireland he is then transferred back to Hungary.

 

[cinc]

While knowing absolutely nothing about this case, arent the parts in bold 100% the fault of the Hungarian authorities for not ensuring that he left the country?

I mean if there is an international arrest order against him, I would have thought at the very least Hungarian border authorities would have been made aware of this?

How was he able to get through the airport or border where he left the country?

Sure, its was the police's fault that he could have left. He was under investigation, not under arrest, as he seemed to be cooperating with the authorities.

That was the reason your ambassador could persuade the local police chief to give back his passport for the deposit.

The international arrest order was issued when he failed to present himself in court and then a different one when he received his final sentence of 3 years (with the option to be released after 18 months).

 

[cinc]

You have offered no evidence mate. Just your opinion. No link.

What the irish judge said is 100% correct.

No, you and the judge have said that in similar cases a Hungarian would not be given back to Ireland.

I said that this would be unlawful in Hungary (the judge's decision is very much discussed in Hungary and I had a discussion with the legal advisor at the paper I work at on the matter).

Then I cited two recent cases of high profile extradition.

You are not a very prolific debater, are ya.

 

[thegregster]

No, you and the judge have said that in similar cases a Hungarian would not be given back to Ireland.

I said that this would be unlawful in Hungary (the judge's decision is very much discussed in Hungary and I had a discussion with the legal advisor at the paper I work at on the matter).

Then I cited two recent cases of high profile extradition.

You are not a very prolific debater, are ya.

He is basically saying that if a Hungarian citizen was charged and convicted in an Irish court while at home in Hungary he has the option of staying at home and serving his sentence their which is 100% correct. Even if he was convicted in Ireland he is then transferred back to Hungary by the EU framework.

 

[thegregster]

Your judge is actually misinformed. The sentence is only served in Hungary if the two authorities agree on that. Extradition would have happened as it happens in dozens of cases every months. The only exception is that noone can be extradited if a death sentence is on the table.

The most recent high profile case being the arrest in the italian matchfixing scandal.

But even an ex-minister's daughter was extradited into Italy because of charges involving prostitution.

And if she is had have been found guilty she would have been transfered to a prison in Hungary.

 

[Rooney24]

Sure, its was the police's fault that he could have left. He was under investigation, not under arrest, as he seemed to be cooperating with the authorities.

That was the reason your ambassador could persuade the local police chief to give back his passport for the deposit.

The international arrest order was issued when he failed to present himself in court and then a different one when he received his final sentence of 3 years (with the option to be released after 18 months).

Well not really. According to the Wiki article he requested the return of his passport for a family visit which the Hungarians have agreed to. He then left Hungary and returned as promised. However at this point when he returned the Hungarian authorities did not ask for him to surrender his passport again. Very sloppy in my opinion.

He then left the country again for a second time unopposed. It was then he has not showed up for his trial, but according to the Wiki article this is permissible under Hungarian law as he was represented by his lawyers.

Of course justice should be served but looks like the Hungarians have been amateur at best in dealing with this.

 

[cinc]

And if she is found guilty she will be imprisoned in Hungary.

No, actually she was in an italian prison for a while while under investigation, but the authorities released her because of lack of evidence.

Now she faces very similar charges in Hungary. The Hungarian and Italian police was working on the case for 2 years.

Stop, bullshitting, mate.

 

[thegregster]

The article you quoted is a year old and has factual errors. Hungary is among the 5 countries with the least number of EU infringement procedures . The Venice Commission (to whom Hungary went for preliminary advice) published its findings that the laws in argument are in line with EU directives.

And this is about criminal law, which is in a much finer state than most of the EU. This malarchy could not have happened in Hungary.

Yet they couldnt even manage to clearly state in writing how long he would have to serve in jail. What a fine legal system.

He also refused extradition on grounds of contradictory and inconsistent documents from the Hungarian authorities related to the length of sentence Mr Tobin would have to serve.

 

[cinc]

Well not really. According to the Wiki article he requested the return of his passport for a family visit which the Hungarians have agreed to. He then left Hungary and returned as promised. However at this point when he returned the Hungarian authorities did not ask for him to surrender his passport again. Very sloppy in my opinion.

He then left the country again for a second time unopposed. It was then he has not showed up for his trial, but according to the Wiki article this is permissible under Hungarian law as he was represented by his lawyers.

Of course justice should be served but looks like the Hungarians have been amateur at best in dealing with this.

No, its not permissable, the sentencing in his absence part which is permissable. By the way, since then most foreigners will stay arrested in similar cases, because they want to eleminate the risk of fleeing.

I'd past neither Tobin or the local police chief that there was some money exchanging hands under the table.

 

[thegregster]

No, actually she was in an italian prison for a while while under investigation, but the authorities released her because of lack of evidence.

Now she faces very similar charges in Hungary. The Hungarian and Italian police was working on the case for 2 years.

Stop, bullshitting, mate.

She wasn't guilty of any crime in Italy. She was on remand. Obviously you would be held on remand in the country where you are charged.

The EU aims to facilitate the social rehabilitation of convicted persons by ensuring that they serve their sentence in their home country. To this end, a system was established for transferring convicted prisoners back to their EU country of nationality, habitual residence or another EU country with which they have close ties.

This system was introduced through the Council Framework Decision of 27 November 2008 on the application of the principle of mutual recognition for judgments imposing custodial sentences or measures involving deprivation of liberty.

 

[cinc]

Yet they couldnt even manage to clearly state in writing how long he would have to serve in jail. What a fine legal system.

fecks sake, maybe your judge has a serious problem of apprehension. And more importantly, my problem is exactly that the judge decision is bullshit. Then you quote from it as it was the gospel.

The court of first instance ruled that he has to serve 3 years in prison. His lawyer appealed and on the second trial he was sentenced to 3 years with the option to be leave on parole after 18 months.

 

[cinc]

She wasn't guilty of any crime in Italy. She was on remand. Obviously you would be held on remand in the country where you are charged.

She was arrested in Hungary who then transferred her to the Italian authorities. What is so difficult to understand?

 

[cinc]

Well if you feel that strongly go to the EU court of Justice.

This will go there, for sure.

 

[thegregster]

She was arrested in Hungary who then transferred her to the Italian authorities. What is so difficult to understand?

Yes I agree with this statement. I am just saying that if she was found gulity she would serve her sentence in Hungary. Am I wrong in saying that?

The EU aims to facilitate the social rehabilitation of convicted persons by ensuring that they serve their sentence in their home country. To this end, a system was established for transferring convicted prisoners back to their EU country of nationality, habitual residence or another EU country with which they have close ties.

This system was introduced through the Council Framework Decision of 27 November 2008 on the application of the principle of mutual recognition for judgments imposing custodial sentences or measures involving deprivation of liberty.

So even if Mr Tobin is handed over to the Hungarian courts for sentencing he would be then sent back to an Irish jail.

 

[Rooney24]

No, its not permissable, the sentencing in his absence part which is permissable. By the way, since then most foreigners will stay arrested in similar cases, because they want to eleminate the risk of fleeing.

I'd past neither Tobin or the local police chief that there was some money exchanging hands under the table.

???

He did not show up for the trial, but was duly represented by his lawyers, which is possible in Hungarian law.

 

[cinc]

yes i agree with this statement. I am just saying that if she was found gulity she would serve her sentence in hungary. Am i wrong in saying that?



So even if mr tobin is handed over to the hungarian courts for sentencing he would be then sent back to an irish jail.

feck sake, ciaran tobin has been sentenced for 3 years with a view to be released in 18 months on parole almost 10 years ago.

 

[cinc]

???

that means that it is possible to go on with the trial in his abstance, but a warrant is issued if he fails to show up nonetheless.

 

[thegregster]

feck sake, ciaran tobin has been sentenced for 3 years with a view to be released in 18 months on parole almost 10 years ago.

Yes but the irish court has decided the conviction was unfair.

This case illustrated how a perfectly ordinary person, of good character, can in a moment, and without any intentional or malicious act on his part, become first a suspect, then a convict sentenced to three years in a foreign jail, the judge said. Mr Tobin was pursued for many years on “a number of inconsistent grounds”.

Now lets say for argument sake that the Irish court handed him over and believe he was 100% guilty and got a fair trial.

What do the Hungarians want to do with him? Sent him to jail in a Hungarian prison? he has a right to serve his sentence in Ireland.

 

[cinc]

Yes but the irish court has decided the conviction was unfair.



Now lets say for argument sake that the Irish court handed him over and believe he was 100% guilty and got a fair trial.

What do the Hungarians want to do with him? Sent him to jail in a Hungarian prison? he has a right to serve his sentence in Ireland.

you're clueless.

1., no irish court decided that the Hungarian decision from 2002 was unfair, they have no legal right to do that. They decided on whether they should give him back to the Hungarian authorities.

2., the Hungarian authorities wanted him to serve his sentence in Ireland in the mid 2000s, Ireland had no law for that at that point. So in 2008-09 you've changed a law by the request of the Hungarian goverment that allowed his extradition. He was even arrested in Dublin and released on about 15000 eurs bail. So, even if it seemed a prolonged battle, everything seemed ok.

It seemed so anyways until this incompetent decision.

Noone cares if he serves his sentence in Ireland, in Hungary or Bangustan in Middle Earth.

 

[cinc]

Its official, the case goes to Strasbourg.

 

[thegregster]

you're clueless.

1., no irish court decided that the Hungarian decision from 2002 was unfair, they have no legal right to do that. They decided on whether they should give him back to the Hungarian authorities.

2., the Hungarian authorities wanted him to serve his sentence in Ireland in the mid 2000s, Ireland had no law for that at that point. So in 2008-09 you've changed a law by the request of the Hungarian goverment that allowed his extradition. He was even arrested in Dublin and released on about 15000 eurs bail. So, even if it seemed a prolonged battle, everything seemed ok.

It seemed so anyways until this incompetent decision.

Noone cares if he serves his sentence in Ireland, in Hungary or Bangustan in Middle Earth.

The court also had to consider the delay of nearly 12 years since the incident and the fact that evidence, such as the car involved, had not been preserved and was no longer available for inspection.

A major consideration was the fairness of his trial.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0201/1224311047720.html

 

[Rooney24]

that means that it is possible to go on with the trial in his abstance, but a warrant is issued if he fails to show up nonetheless.

But that doesnt make any sense. Why is it allowed to not show up to your case if represented by your lawyers and then a warrant is issued for your arrest when you exercise this right?