The shape of our midfield...

[Rozay]

I don’t like it. I know the Pogba/Bruno/Matic combination has a lot of admirers - but it still worries me, especially with how we set up.

I’m not a massive advocate of Pogba playing the role he’s playing. Firstly, I believe he can contribute more with more licence, and secondly, I have concerns about his defending. Not his 'attitude’ or ‘willingness’ to defend, but mainly his ability. I don’t think he’s good enough at it, not for want of trying, and we will be caught out against top pass and love teams.

Then there is Bruno. He’s nominally a midfielder at all, and plays 15/20 yards in front of Pogba. What this does is leaves us 2 against 3 more often than not, and in anything but very easy games, it is an issue. Not even the likes of City - but a game like Southampton at home last week showed this.

Personnel wise, we have a good trio, but the 4-2-3-1 won’t win us titles I don’t think. We are essentially playing two in midfield. I’d much prefer a more classic 433, with Bruno and Pogba both sharing offensive and defensive duties, but giving us 3 bodies and a little more control in the middle of the park.

 

[He'sRaldo]

It's been poor despite the quality of players. In fact I've been complaining about the 4-2-3-1 for over a year now.

Which sort of midfield allows this to happen all game?

 

[sp_107]

With out Matic we might have Gerrard/Lampard situation in our hands

I think Pogba and Bruno can gel may be swapping their positions but someone young in Matic ilk is the key for next season with am addition of someone like Grealish.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

I agree.

I wish we transitioned to a 3 man midfield.

Bruno is too far forward for my liking and it basically leaves us playing 2 vs 3 in midfield.

 

[Bojan11]

Ideally you’d want a Thiago/Kroos type player who can control the game next to Matic. Pogba and Bruno are not those players.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

Ideally you’d want a Thiago/Kroos type player who can control the game next to Matic. Pogba and Bruno are not those players.

True in an ideal world, but control of the midfield is still possible if we actually use a 3 man midfield.

By using a 2 man midfield, we are basically surrendering the midfield to our opponents. I just don't think long-term, we can achieve what we aspire for with that system.

When Ole first came in, we basically used a 3 man midfield. I don't know why he's abandoned that this season.

 

[kirk buttercup]

I think we could play 3 behind Bruno and two in front of him with Bruno playing like a 10 .

For example

- -------Back 4 -----

----- McT ------ Matic ---- Pogba
---------------Bruno----------
--------- Rashford ----Martial ------


The problems with this is we dont have the fullbacks to give us width .

 

[He'sRaldo]

When Ole first came in, we basically used a 3 man midfield. I don't know why he's abandoned that this season.

He abandoned it ever since we played Scott and Pogba in a double pivot vs Liverpool last season.

I have been against it ever since, but it seems he isn't willing to change it even if his options at no. 10 are Lingard and Pereira.

 

[Berbasbullet]

I think we need to see Bruno dropping deep to help with the press from goal kicks, otherwise Matic becomes a third CB, Pogba is in the middle alone and gets smothered and Bruno is too far away.

 

[E-mal]

It's been poor despite the quality of players. In fact I've been complaining about the 4-2-3-1 for over a year now.

Which sort of midfield allows this to happen all game?

Those images are truly shocking! Pogba playing in a one man midfield.

 

[He'sRaldo]

Those images are truly shocking! Pogba playing in a one man midfield.

I was surprised a bigger deal wasn't made of it at the time. The most shocking thing to me was subbing off Pogba for Fred and putting him in the exact same situation with no adjustments.

 

[ivaldo]

It's been poor despite the quality of players. In fact I've been complaining about the 4-2-3-1 for over a year now.

Which sort of midfield allows this to happen all game?

Yup. And we have people still claiming Matic shows for the ball. We need another player in there willing to receive the ball in tight areas. Have that, and playing out from the back becomes significantly easier.

 

[Leftback99]

It's early days (for the Matic/Pogba/Bruno midfield) but I can't see it working long term. It doesn't feel like something that will give us consistency as they are too erratic in possession with Pogba and Bruno too often trying to force things.

To balance it I think we either need a deep lying playmaker who will control the tempo or a destroyer to give the extra protection.

It's more of a 4-4-1-1 at times and it's not ideal in either possession or defensively.

 

[Ole'sattheWheel]

I think you have to stop thinking about players in terms of set 'numbered' positions and instead think about the spaces they occupy in different phases of play.

For example today Bruno started as a weird CAM/ False 9 type position if you were to pigeon hole it. In reality he was simply pressing the central Chelsea CB out of possession, whereas when we did have the ball he was dropping into pockets of space infront of that 3 hoping to receive the ball and make something happen - using his tremendous workrate for both the defensive and offensive aspects of his role. As the game developed it became clear this wasn't working (our game plan in general fell flat due to a combination of factors for another discussion) and he began dropping deep to help out in midfield as we were being overrun.

For Pogba it is similar, but instead of being the midfielder pressing the opposition CBs he is tasked with cutting passing channels into the opposition CMs and engaging in duels for the ball out of possession. On the flipside, in possession his role is to receive it from Matic/ the defenders and then transition up the pitch, either by playing a long range pass, interplay & movement, or carrying it himself.

I think the 433 and 4231 are essentially the same with the players we have, and I'm sure if you were to find their heatmaps from this great run we've been on (ignoring the first half of today due to the 3CB system), we would see some kind of hybrid of the two if we focused on Matic, Pogba and Bruno's positioning. With Matic furthest back, and Pogba/Bruno pushing further forward.

 

[He'sRaldo]

Yup. And we have people still claiming Matic shows for the ball. We need another player in there willing to receive the ball in tight areas. Have that, and playing out from the back becomes significantly easier.

I think it's tactical, and not purely down to Matic though.

 

[Mainoldo]

James Rodriguez said number 10’s are dying because of the modern day game. Well at United number 10’s are still alive.

It’s also the reason why our midfield shape stinks. Update your philosophy. It’s dated. Bruno was an 8 in Portugal stop giving him a free ride. He can do the same job from further back.

 

[He'sRaldo]

@georgipep as for the answer to your question in the other thread. This thread is a good start.

 

[Dante]

There are only two ways a midfield containing Bruno and Pogba (plus Matic or someone similar) can work:

1. Bruno drops deeper and puts in a defensive shift
2. Pogba starts putting in more of a defensive shift

Even with a top class holding player behind them, we can't get away with having two midfielders who let the middle third be overrun.

 

[AFC NimbleThumb]

James Rodriguez said number 10’s are dying because of the modern day game. Well at United number 10’s are still alive.

It’s also the reason why our midfield shape stinks. Update your philosophy. It’s dated. Bruno was an 8 in Portugal stop giving him a free ride. He can do the same job from further back.

Agree with this.

Given Bruno’s energy & ability to get all over the pitch playing him as a 10 & leaving ourselves light seems foolish.

 

[He'sRaldo]

Bruno was an 8 in Portugal stop giving him a free ride. He can do the same job from further back.

From what I've seen of him in the PL he may not have the physicality for it. He doesn't seem physically assured when he's pressured deeper, unlike Pogba, Matic, or Fred.

 

[ivaldo]

I think it's tactical, and not purely down to Matic though.

Further forward absolutely, but you don't bring your DM back into a 3 when you are on the edge of your own box. There were times against Southampton, for example, where he would move behind Shaw and the CBs to pick up the ball. He needs space. There is absolutely no way Ole is asking for Matic to vacate the middle of the park and leave Pogba on his own.

He simply won't offer for the ball on the half turn in tight spaces. When he does find himself in those positions he tends to get robbed.

 

[Web of Bissaka]

The shape of our midfield is to have no shape.

 

[Tel074]

Yup. And we have people still claiming Matic shows for the ball. We need another player in there willing to receive the ball in tight areas. Have that, and playing out from the back becomes significantly easier.

Saying matic doesn't show for the ball is simply untrue . Ask anyone who actually attends games and they will tell you Matic is constantly the one who drops to receive and show for the ball .
The night we lost at home to Burnley when everyone was shocking he was still the only one looking to receive the ball .

 

[Mainoldo]

From what I've seen of him in the PL he may not have the physicality for it. He doesn't seem physically assured when he's pressured deeper, unlike Pogba, Matic, or Fred.

He doesn’t need to be physically. He’s tenacious. Pogba and Matic can keep the ball he’s Herrera with David Silva attacking quality. Use it.

 

[bosnian_red]

Bruno's more than capable of playing the role, think Ole's just telling him to push up as the free guy in the attacking 3rd. But yeah, training them to be a midfield 3 more often with Pogba and Bruno sharing the half 8/half 10 roles, and a holding mid behind them would work better. Not concerned about the personnel side of things, and when Pogba and Matic are on it it's fine as is, but I definitely agree it would bring more out of Pogba to be more advanced. Having McTominay and Fred to be squad players to rotate to a midfield 2 is fine as well. Long term we definitely need that holding midfield position sorted out though, as Matic isn't an every game type of player anymore.

 

[El Jefe]

Was going to create a thread on this. Bruno and Pogba need to play as dual No.8s for this to work and even then I'm not sure. If Ole is hellbent on 4-2-3-1 then we should sell Pogba and buy a Modric type of midfielder. Truth is Pogba has very poor defensive instincts and he has a high number of unsuccessful touches and dispossession for a top CM. In games where we've got out back against the ropes the last person I want in midfield is Pogba as he's sure to lose track of runners, give away cheap fouls and be slow to close spaces.

In games where we're dominant it's perfect but I suspect when fans return and away games become a lot more challenging our midfield will be exposed.

 

[ivaldo]

Saying matic doesn't show for the ball is simply untrue . Ask anyone who actually attends games and they will tell you Matic is constantly the one who drops to receive and show for the ball .
The night we lost at home to Burnley when everyone was shocking he was still the only one looking to receive the ball .

Don't give me that shit.

Yes, he drops to receive the ball from the CB. I want my midfielder to receive the ball in midfield. It makes it exponentially harder to play out from the back when we only have one central midfielder to play to, because Matic won't receive it in tight areas. Invariably, we see the ball played across the third players further back, one of which is Matic, pushed out wide to the fullbacks who then have 1 to few options to pass to. They don't have a CM inside them as an option.

It's perfectly fine for Matic to drop deeper when we are higher up the pitch. He excels when we get there, but is a huge weakness beforehand. Next time you watch us play actually pay attention to his positionally and see how many times he offers for the ball in tight areas.

 

[RUCK4444]

I agree with most of the OP. I think today though it was compounded by the fact Bruno seemed to be instructed to really push forwards so the disconnect and gap was even greater.

Quite often Bruno was the further player forwards.

 

[Tel074]

Don't give me that shit.

Yes, he drops to receive the ball from the CB. I want my midfielder to receive the ball in midfield. It makes it exponentially harder to play out from the back when we only have one central midfielder to play to, because Matic won't receive it in tight areas. Invariably, we see the ball played across the third players further back, one of which is Matic, pushed out wide to the fullbacks who then have 1 to few options to pass to. They don't have a CM inside them as an option.

It's perfectly fine for Matic to drop deeper when we are higher up the pitch. He excels when we get there, but is a huge weakness beforehand. Next time you watch us play actually pay attention to his positionally and see how many times he offers for the ball in tight areas.

Hahaa come to OT and actually watch a match then tell me Matic doesn't receive the ball in tight areas . Our CB,S are not good enough on the ball So Matic has to do this .
Say what you want about him but to say he doesnt show for the ball just isn't true

 

[criticalanalysis]

Further forward absolutely, but you don't bring your DM back into a 3 when you are on the edge of your own box. There were times against Southampton, for example, where he would move behind Shaw and the CBs to pick up the ball. He needs space. There is absolutely no way Ole is asking for Matic to vacate the middle of the park and leave Pogba on his own.

He simply won't offer for the ball on the half turn in tight spaces. When he does find himself in those positions he tends to get robbed.

I've seen quite a few on your posts around the forum on this point about Matic.

Whilst I understanding what you are saying, I don't believe he's doing it due to not having the ability or he's shirking responsibility (like your Lindelofs). i think he's doing it out of tactics/his own accord. Quite simply the coaching and general tactics are just very basic, which makes our 'better' passers in defence very hesistant and quite passive in their passing and off the ball movement.

We play a deep line, don't have great patterns of plays to back out from the back and we rely on individual ability to move the ball forward. Matic, like any responsible midfielder with ability is deliberately dropping deep to get onto the ball and offering an option. If Matic doesn't drop, the opposition will press your Maguires/AWB and Lindelofs, who will find it even harder to pass into the middle of the pitch. Unless we have brilliant off the movement and triangles set up for rondo style touch passing, any pass into 'tight' areas are basically hospital balls.

As some have alluded to though and I said before the restart though, that if we was going to play 4-2-3-1 then i would much have Fred partnering Pogba simply because he's got the legs. He's not as positionally sharp but his intangibles like quick, feet, risks on the ball (progressive passing) and pitch coverage would mask somne of the deficiencies of this shape/basic coaching.

 

[He'sRaldo]

Further forward absolutely, but you don't bring your DM back into a 3 when you are on the edge of your own box. There were times against Southampton, for example, where he would move behind Shaw and the CBs to pick up the ball. He needs space. There is absolutely no way Ole is asking for Matic to vacate the middle of the park and leave Pogba on his own.

He simply won't offer for the ball on the half turn in tight spaces. When he does find himself in those positions he tends to get robbed.

I agree that it's better high up, but also I think it's instructions from Ole. You say there's no way Ole would give such instructions, but I'm not convinced.

 

[He'sRaldo]

Was going to create a thread on this. Bruno and Pogba need to play as dual No.8s for this to work and even then I'm not sure. If Ole is hellbent on 4-2-3-1 then we should sell Pogba and buy a Modric type of midfielder. Truth is Pogba has very poor defensive instincts and he has a high number of unsuccessful touches and dispossession for a top CM. In games where we've got out back against the ropes the last person I want in midfield is Pogba as he's sure to lose track of runners, give away cheap fouls and be slow to close spaces.

In games where we're dominant it's perfect but I suspect when fans return and away games become a lot more challenging our midfield will be exposed.

Modric beside Kroos without Casemiro was also not effective. Truth is a 3 man midfield is the way to go, Ole should really stop being hellbent with a dysfunctional 4-2-3-1 that consistently relies on individual brilliance to build attacks.

 

[Web of Bissaka]

There are only two ways a midfield containing Bruno and Pogba (plus Matic or someone similar) can work:

1. Bruno drops deeper and puts in a defensive shift
2. Pogba starts putting in more of a defensive shift

Even with a top class holding player behind them, we can't get away with having two midfielders who let the middle third be overrun.

433 would improve this.

Thing is..
1. He already did several times but then we have to remember he is playing CAM and still, he dropped deep a lot.
2. Isn't he already doing that? but we can't expect a natural attacking player or a player more suited to attacking and had proven record of being suspect defensively to suddenly be consistently good at it. Not reasonable.

 

[Web of Bissaka]

Modric beside Kroos without Casemiro was also not effective. Truth is a 3 man midfield is the way to go, Ole should really stop being hellbent with a dysfunctional 4-2-3-1 that consistently relies on individual brilliance to build attacks.

This.

Let's stop being stubborn with this 4231 thing.

We only had one suitable player (a top class player, and zero at least a good player) for that #10 role for god's sake.
Plus one key player (Pogba) just are not at his best at double-pivot.

Ludicrous and ridiculous.

 

[He'sRaldo]

This.

Let's stop being stubborn with this 4231 thing.

We only had one suitable player (a top class player, and zero at least a good player) for that #10 role for god's sake.
Plus one key player (Pogba) just are not at his best at double-pivot.

Ludicrous and ridiculous.

Even if we set aside the build up play, the pressing and defensive shape is still very inefficient and random. We need to have a solid high block, compact, organized, and shifting from side to side.

with the 4-2-3-1 it's still easy to get past our high pressing at which point we all drop deep and the wingers start tracking fullback runs into our own area. It's a waste of energy.

 

[Mcking]

I don’t like it. I know the Pogba/Bruno/Matic combination has a lot of admirers - but it still worries me, especially with how we set up.

I’m not a massive advocate of Pogba playing the role he’s playing. Firstly, I believe he can contribute more with more licence, and secondly, I have concerns about his defending. Not his 'attitude’ or ‘willingness’ to defend, but mainly his ability. I don’t think he’s good enough at it, not for want of trying, and we will be caught out against top pass and love teams.

Then there is Bruno. He’s nominally a midfielder at all, and plays 15/20 yards in front of Pogba. What this does is leaves us 2 against 3 more often than not, and in anything but very easy games, it is an issue. Not even the likes of City - but a game like Southampton at home last week showed this.

Personnel wise, we have a good trio, but the 4-2-3-1 won’t win us titles I don’t think. We are essentially playing two in midfield. I’d much prefer a more classic 433, with Bruno and Pogba both sharing offensive and defensive duties, but giving us 3 bodies and a little more control in the middle of the park.

The set up is not great as far as I'm concerned, but I don't think the personnel is good for what you are looking for.

Personally, I'm not a big fan of Bruno as a midfielder. Not enough control and composure in his game, and I'd have him as a final third merchant.
I don't think he'd be very good deeper seeing how much he struggles with ball retention. IIRC, he was played as a right midfielder on his debut but has played further
forward since then.

A midfield two could very well be what Ole wants, but I think we need a more defensively astute midfielder than Matic, and another midfielder that could offer more control and than Bruno to make a classic 433 work.

 

[Rozay]

The set up is not great as far as I'm concerned, but I don't think the personnel is good for what you are looking for.

Personally, I'm not a big fan of Bruno as a midfielder. Not enough control and composure in his game, and I'd have him as a final third merchant.
I don't think he'd be very good deeper seeing how much he struggles with ball retention. IIRC, he was played as a right midfielder on his debut but has played further
forward since then.

A midfield two could very well be what Ole wants, but I think we need a more defensively astute midfielder than Matic, and another midfielder that could offer more control and than Bruno to make a classic 433 work.

Yea I think those are fair points, although I don’t think it’s the right way to go when everyone we come up against has 3 in there. Dropping Bruno back 15 yards at least helps a bit I think, although the personnel isn’t perfect as you say. But what we are currently doing is less perfect I think.

 

[#CR7]

Agree with OP. Clear lack of balance in our midfield 3 unless we're playing against a low block.

Definitely not a fan of Pogba in a double pivot as he loses a lot of his strengths by not being allowed to break the lines with his movement. Also susceptible to the high press as we found out in recent weeks.

Bruno has been good with his back to goal but would prefer him dropping deeper and helping to overload the midfield during the build up.

However, not sure about Matic as the anchor in a 433 as we would be putting too much pressure on him / asking him to cover extra yards.

Not feeling confident about Fred/McTominay in the Matic role either.

Ole definitely needs to address this before next season.

 

[Flexdegea]

I hate when we lose for the simple reason all these reactionary posts pop up and the real experts get their bit in

 

[He'sRaldo]

I hate when we lose for the simple reason all these reactionary posts pop up and the real experts get their bit in

If we mention it any other time, we'll get slapped with "unbeaten in so-and-so". I know because I've mentioned it before and that's been the response.

Now is as good a time as any.