The situation in Belarus

Raoul

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This is happening at pretty much the worst time for Putin, as any attempt to strong arm the Belorussians into submission will likely be met with strong pushback from Europe/NATO/ and possibly even the US.
 

Carolina Red

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The Belarus-Russia Conflict Through The Lens Of The Gerasimov Doctrine

With Ukraine largely taken care of and the Baltics off the table (for the time being), Putin is in search for other low hanging fruit. And what better place for that than Belarus.

http://belarusdigest.com/story/belarus-russia-conflict-through-lens-gerasimov-doctrine-29252



First off... You gotta love the overblown military/diplomatic graphics. They produce some doozies.

Secondly...
General Gerasimov believes that the rules of war have changed and the line between war and peace has blurred. The role of non-military means of achieving political and strategic goals has grown. In many cases, these means have proved more effective than conventional warfare.
Imo, he's right.. It's the new proxy war.

The US got complacent after "winning" the Cold War. Russia began searching for solutions to why they lost. This is what came as a result.
 

Raoul

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First off... You gotta love the overblown military/diplomatic graphics. They produce some doozies.

Secondly...

Imo, he's right.. It's the new proxy war.

The US got complacent after "winning" the Cold War. Russia began searching for solutions to why they lost. This is what came as a result.
Indeed, and it just goes to show that Russia's foreign policy is more or less a modern strain of old school Soviet style cross border subversion where you would see communist student groups at Universities in various European countries followed by internal agitations that challenged the existing political order in said country. In the modern iteration, Putin is using troll farms, TV propaganda (RT etc), the funding/support of right wing Eurosceptic politicians and political parties (UK, France, Bulgaria, Moldova, Montenegro etc), and active collusion with non state actors like Wikileaks to influence the elections in the U.S.

What this shows beyond a shadow of a doubt is that Putin has no interest in participating in a world where Democracy, liberty and human rights are the prevailing norms, and the sooner the gullible European leaders, who once thought he was a tough democratic administrator who was struggling to manage a corrupt post-Yeltsin system, come to grips with his true intentions, the sooner he can be dealt with through a collective strategy.

The fact that he is going after Belarus - which was allegedly one of Russia's strongest allies - just goes to show how weak and unstable he is at the moment.
 

Paxi

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How long has Lukashenko been in power? Must be about 20 years! And he hasn't aged much.
 

mu4c_20le

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Depressing as expected. Surprised that there is not more global scrutiny over this, there is more attention over whether or not Hong Kong elections will be postponed due to covid.
 

Solius

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Seems to be becoming the norm in countries now. Blatantly breaking the law at every turn and zero consequences.
 

harms

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It’s an outsider’s view, but it really looks like it may be the end of Lukashenko’s regime. The discrepancy between the actual results and what we’re seeing in the official sources is not even ridiculous, it’s just surreal. I had hoped that the police and army wouldn’t obey his orders, but that would’ve been too good to be true.

The footage from on-going protests is properly scary.
 

Raoul

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It’s an outsider’s view, but it really looks like it may be the end of Lukashenko’s regime. The discrepancy between the actual results and what we’re seeing in the official sources is not even ridiculous, it’s just surreal. I had hoped that the police and army wouldn’t obey his orders, but that would’ve been too good to be true.

The footage from on-going protests is properly scary.
Don't you think Putin would intervene in some way if it looked like Lukashenko might fall and the country suddenly liberalize ? Seems like he wouldn't tolerate a new Democracy on his front door.
 

harms

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Russian method / Chechen variation of honest and transparent elections.
Not really. In Chechnya they really have those close to 100% numbers – the issue is, there's a clear hierarchy in the society and Kadyrov's word is basically the law. And, of course, if you dare to disobey him, you and your relatives would be prosecuted, tortured or killed. In Belarus' the election fraud happens at the election itself.

Seems to be becoming the norm in countries now. Blatantly breaking the law at every turn and zero consequences.
I can't seem to remember anything close to this happening in European countries recently. You have, say, Russia, where the government uses TV, radio, spends tons of money on internet trolls etc. But, sadly, it still has an actual electorate – and while it continues to diminish, it's still, probably, about half of the voters (it's hard to say without any option of objective assessment). So you'll have, say, 50% of approval mysteriously transforming into 65%...

In Belarus, going by most of the recent assessments, Lukashenko's rating is actually lower than 10%. And he tries to achieve a 75-80% approval rating in the elections by sheer fraudulence. I think this is pretty much unheard of... so I'm not sure if he'll be able to deal with the outcome, and I certainly hope that he doesn't.
 

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Lukashenko giving a lesson to Putin and Erdogan on how to do the elections.
 

harms

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Don't you think Putin would intervene in some way if it looked like Lukashenko might fall and the country suddenly liberalize ? Seems like he wouldn't tolerate a new Democracy on his front door.
Considering what he did with Ukraine, anything is possible. It's weird that he hadn't been able to gain more influence and control the situation better, he is, sadly, quite good at it. Lukashenko's recent distrust towards Putin and Russia didn't help as well – it looks like he had tried to play the Russian aggression card in a desperate attempt to get some of the reactive voters back, but failed to do so.

Putin has a lot more cards in his hands than Lukashenko does, but if the "revolution" actually happens, it would massively affect his standing domestically as well as internationally. It wouldn't surprise me one bit if Putin will send unmarked troops to join Belarus' police and military in their attempt to control the situation – from Lukashenko's perspective it's certainly the lesser of two evils. Still, if my initial assessment is right and it's not just wishful thinking (it's hard to say without actually being there), no amount of soldiers and policemen are able to keep control of a country, 80% of which population actively tries to change the regime, in the long run.

Fingers crossed.
 

harms

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Police shooting at the protesters (probably not with live ammunition)

Police ramming into the crowd on a vehicle
 

harms

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Multiple sources state that the guy from the second video had died (doesn’t surprise me even a little bit).
 

Rajma

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Tonight could be last night for the regime, special forces are out of control and bombing, exercising brutal force, and gunning people down in Minsk as peaceful protesters are gathering. Internet still largely shoot down. Country wide protests starting tomorrow I’m hearing from multiple sources, also people are working out the addresses of men from special forces and will be going after their families in their hometowns, a tit-for-tat. It will be brutal next few days, hopefully, regime finally falls and it won’t be all for nothing. It’s literally all happening on my doorstep as I live very close to the border and have some family there. Also, speculation going around that Putin is now actively helping out by sending some of their troops as well as they fear that locals may finally give in at some point.

edit: I’m also surprised by the lack of activity in this thread, a bit disheartening to be honest when you see what people are currently going through there, in Europe no less.
 
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FireballXL5

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Tonight could be last night for the regime, special forces are out of control and bombing, exercising brutal force, and gunning people down in Minsk as peaceful protesters are gathering. Internet still largely shoot down. Country wide protests starting tomorrow I’m hearing from multiple sources, also people are working out the addresses of men from special forces and will be going after their families in their hometowns, a tit-for-tat. It will be brutal next few days, hopefully, regime finally falls and it won’t be all for nothing. It’s literally all happening on my doorstep as I live very close to the border and have some family there. Also, speculation going around that Putin is now actively helping out by sending some of their troops as well as they fear that locals may finally give in at some point.

edit: I’m also surprised by the lack of activity in this thread, a bit disheartening to be honest when you see what people are currently going through there, in Europe no less.
My thoughts are with the protesters over there. Stay safe mate.
 

Rajma

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My thoughts are with the protesters over there. Stay safe mate.
I’m Lithuanian mate! It’s just that I live not too far of the border with Belarus and get to interact with their people a lot (which are coming here for work in masses due to poor economic conditions in their country). It’s incredible that Lukashenko thinks he can handle such a sustained pressure from the overwhelming majority unless he goes full North Korea or something.
 

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I have a friend in Belarus so I've been following this situation with great worry. Haven't heard from him in a couple days. Hope there's not many casualties.
 

4bars

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edit: I’m also surprised by the lack of activity in this thread, a bit disheartening to be honest when you see what people are currently going through there, in Europe no less.
99% of my friends know anything about Belarus politics if you would tell them that they are US/EU friendly and a full on democracy they would believe it

I am frankly interested as in all international politic scene, but I have 0 information to add and I think is the majority of the people because it drawns 0 interest in the news and there is sort of obscuranty on lukashenko regime that doesn't allow much to know that there is a soft dictator puppet from Russia.

I even wrote my belarussian acquaintance for information and she didn't get back to me yet

Hope they can overthrown that cnut and Belarus can improve in their own democratic terms
 

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edit: I’m also surprised by the lack of activity in this thread, a bit disheartening to be honest when you see what people are currently going through there, in Europe no less.
I’d consider myself relatively well-informed about many places, but don’t know anything about Belarus. I’d imagine the same goes for a lot of people on here.
 

4bars

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I’d consider myself relatively well-informed about many places, but don’t know anything about Belarus. I’d imagine the same goes for a lot of people on here.
Exactly. Thats why the current events is a great spot to enter and learn from the ones that they know more than oneself. So please, add any useful information to be informed
 

VorZakone

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It always amazes me how long dictators manage to stay in power. I can't grasp how they can hold such a tight grip on a country.
 

4bars

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It always amazes me how long dictators manage to stay in power. I can't grasp how they can hold such a tight grip on a country.
Corruption and violence is a very powerful grip and people will not risk their life (because it comes down to that) as long as they have fear to lose something else first. As long people have sustain for them and their loved ones, is very difficult to risk everything against a long term network of corruption and state control that had been threaded little by little tighten it more and more and that might not work even if you risk your life (like many other regimes)
 

Paxi

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Depressing as expected. Surprised that there is not more global scrutiny over this, there is more attention over whether or not Hong Kong elections will be postponed due to covid.
He’s been in charge for 26 years and it’s not a surprise at all. In 3 years time he’ll equal Stalins dictatorship of USSR. Have a feeling Putin will too though.
 

Paxi

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Overthrowing Lukashenko could potentially have dire consequences for Ukraine. It would be a perfect opportunity for Putin for an intervention. Not that he needs it right now, must Russians I know are sick of him, which is something I thought I’d not see as they were once staunch supporters of him. Poverty does that to you.
 

VorZakone

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Corruption and violence is a very powerful grip and people will not risk their life (because it comes down to that) as long as they have fear to lose something else first. As long people have sustain for them and their loved ones, is very difficult to risk everything against a long term network of corruption and state control that had been threaded little by little tighten it more and more and that might not work even if you risk your life (like many other regimes)
I understand that. What I don't understand is, how do these dictators not get overthrown by other power hungry folks every couple of years. To have that tight grip for multiple decades is what baffles me.
 

4bars

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I understand that. What I don't understand is, how do these dictators not get overthrown by other power hungry folks every couple of years. To have that tight grip for multiple decades is what baffles me.
Well, He doesn't sustain himself alone, he shares part of his power. Regional power, sector power, wealth, etc...and risk that for just a bit of more power and instability to be next it might not worth it. Risk/benefit analysis I guess?

In timing matters too. Now it could be the first time that it might be an opening to make a move for them since ever, and they might try, succeed and the new hope e worse than lukashenko
 

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Overthrowing Lukashenko could potentially have dire consequences for Ukraine. It would be a perfect opportunity for Putin for an intervention. Not that he needs it right now, must Russians I know are sick of him, which is something I thought I’d not see as they were once staunch supporters of him. Poverty does that to you.
It's a bit more complicated than that I think. A little while ago, Lukashenko's Belarus was very close to Russia, and there was some talk of Belarus maybe eventually becoming a Russian province. That has completely reversed though: Lukashenko is now rather mistrusting of Putin and Russia. He's not quite steering Belarus towards Europe, but trying harder to steer a middle course. In the meantime, he has started fostering a unique Belarussian national identity, by emphasizing differences and promoting the national language. (Belarussian is not Russian, but was long suppressed.)

Obviously, all that is self-serving, as Lukashenko hopes it will give him a little more credit with his people and help him stay in power of 'his own' country in the face of Russian pressure. But all the same, it means that having Lukashenko in power is not necessarily in Russia's best interest. Neither is a revolution that creates a democratic country though, as that might give the Russian opposition the 'wrong' ideas and inspiration. So from my perspective, Putin might actually like the current unrest best. If he can fan the flames and give it an anti-Russian angle, that would give him the pretext to intervene like he did in Ukraine, to 'save' the Russians in Belarus. As @Rajma indicated, the rest of Europe and the US have never seemed to care much about Belarus, so the NATO response would probably be rather lacklustre.

Or at least, that's what I've been getting out of articles I've been reading in the past few months. Happy to be corrected.

Edit: Just read about another option. Putin helps Lukashenko stay in power, but on the condition that Lukashenko returns to his previous trajectory, i.e., increased integration with Russia, which might eventually lead to Belarus practically becoming an autonomous province of Russia.
 
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harms

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So, after all those words about sovereignty and potential Russian influence on the elections, Lukashenko had backed down and called Putin for help.

I need to contact Putin, Russia’s president, so I can talk to him because the threat now isn’t to Belarus alone. [...] Defending Belarus today is nothing less than defending our entire space — the Union State and its example to others. If Belarusians can’t hold the line, this wave will roll there [to Russia], too
 

The Firestarter

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Won't someone think of the poor dictators facing protests for democracy? Must be really hard.