The slow and steady slide into total mediocrity

[Needham]

It was an immediate cascade into mediocrity after Fergie departed. Been scrambling back up ever since.

 

[Cockney Phil]

We were already mediocre under Fergie in those last years after 2008. But for RVP we were on a slide and everyone was talking about it with growing concern. RVp was the kind of short termism that papers over the cracks in a squad. It’s probably forgotten now but we fans were crying out for decent midfielders through 2011-13 and that continued even up to Pogba’s arrival. What we have now is the remnants of Fergie’s time mixed in with everything since and hollowed out by in-replaced transfers.

Some of us have been predicting this since before the beginning of the season. The period March to August was ruinous and Ole failed to make the necessary changes while he had the time. Officially, according to the club webpage, we have 4 goalies, 12 defenders, 10 midfielders and 5 forwards. From what I have seen thus far and going on form - we have 2 excellent goalies, 2 excellent defenders, 2 excellent midfielders (1 on the point of becoming pretty good) and 1 excellent forward. That’s simply not enough and doesn’t make for a solid spine to build success.

The biggest loss was Ander - I think he might have made the difference this season and bought Ole the time to build a decent spine. The number of players I don’t think should be in the squad has surprised me, almost a parallel to 1972-73.

 

[Tel074]

Doing the same things and expecting different results springs to mind but in appointing Ole the club has tried to break the pattern. Results on the pitch are not great but I look towards the positives:

De Gea,
Maguire
Wan Bissaka
James
Martial
McTominay
Tuanzebe

For me that is a great base to build upon. I've left out Pogba as I am guessing he leaves at the end of the season. The team is missing experienced leaders and I think we are 4 signings short of a quality squad but it is far from an unbridgeable gap.

The scary thing for me is you have named 7 players and 3 where signed this summer . We have spent close to 1 billion in 7 years and we have absolutely nothing player wise to show for that spend . We are a club with no leadership. Ed is a great marketing man but his ego in not appointing a DOF is killing us . Woodward has showed how inept he is in the transfer market and I for one can't see that changing

 

[Cockney Phil]

The scary thing for me is you have named 7 players and 3 where signed this summer . We have spent close to 1 billion in 7 years and we have absolutely nothing player wise to show for that spend . We are a club with no leadership. Ed is a great marketing man but his ego in not appointing a DOF is killing us . Woodward has showed how inept he is in the transfer market and I for one can't see that changing

This is not meant to criticise your comment about Woody but how hard is it to sell the MUFC brand for marketing?
With upwards of millions in the global fan base that’s not a hard ask for attracting company’s to agree to splash the cash for advertising and sponsorship benefits. If Woody had made a million for Bury I would have been impressed but for the United brand it’s pretty much a walk in the park - even in times of recession. This was a feature of United’s name going back to at least Bestie when companies clamoured to advertise. The greater problem appears to be the overall lack of footy expertise in the admin of players and squad, which was at one time the primary business. Maybe, the board no longer regard football as the primary business!

 

[Jack - City Fan]

I wish you’d hurry up and do a proper job of sliding. You’re not even an interesting Football Manager save at the moment.

 

[robinamicrowave]

Who out of your current set-up are, right now, under this regime, capable of stopping this slide?

De Gea
Wan-Bissaka, Lindelof, Maguire, Shaw
McTominay, Pogba
Lingard, James, Rashford
Martial

Romero
Dalot, Tuanzebe, Rojo, Young (Bailly, Jones)
Pereira, Matic, Fred
Mata, Greenwood, Gomes (Chong)

Being realistic, that's your lot. I've bolded Romero because he's a good back-up keeper for a top side, no other reason. There are some unbolded players who have great potential but under this regime? I don't think so. But you know, as much as we can sit here debating about the quality of the squad, it's the quality of the coaching they're receiving, and the quality of organisation and support that the manager is receiving, that will be the only thing that either prevents or seals this slide into mediocrity. Your squad now is no worse than Liverpool's was around the turn of the decade while they had Hodgson and Dalglish, but they managed to arrest that slide by keeping things relatively afloat until the time was right for them to be fully sold off to FSG and for FSG to take control. Point being: I can't really see any of this getting any better until the Glazers either give up or die.

 

[ROFLUTION]

Ugh, I have to defend Ed on this one, but I fully disagree.

Ed has shown that he can sign lot’s of players if the manager is clear who he wants.

We’ve seen it with LvG and Mou in his first 2 seasons.

This year was different. Ole knew what defensive signings he wanted, but wasn’t quite sure on the offensive ones.

This is why we were linked with Ben Yeder and Dembele, but didn’t sign them. Same thing can be said about Bruno Fernandes.

Also it’s worth noting that Alexis was shipped off after the transfer window closed. I sincerely doubt that Ed shipped him off without Ole’a approval.

So my theory is that Ole was naive enough to believe that Rashy and Martial can lead the line. Also he thought that Fernandes wasn’t good enough, and that Pereira, Mata, Lingard and Gomes can do the job.

And I’m guessing this is why Ed looked so displeased at the West Ham. He had that “you told me that you’re going to handle this, so what gives” type of face.

I hear what you're saying but he also left the Dybala deal until way too late. A chairman of his size should be able to understand that an injury prone Martial competing with Rashford for 1-2 spots up front, is way too few attackers.

It's just basic footballing skills required of a CEO to understand that there needs to be about 1 replacement/cover for each position at least (4 attackers) and also that we have other spots to fill, so you can't just leave everything late, as it takes time from other operations. He goes backwards and ships off Lukaku and Sanchez before having bought their replacements. It's so incompetent and slow to me.

Comparing to other clubs who get their deals done early on, we've yet to see this with Ed. We're supposed to talk up players for next year to sign, before the year we actually want them, like when Real wanted Hazard. So Maddison would be our case this year for instance. Or Richarlison, Sancho or whoever, who will have a hard time to get out of their club.

Ed was slow from the start on Fabregas leaving it late until getting Fellaini. He was slow in getting Maguire (could be Glazer-hesitance too), and the negotiations for Wan Bissaka+Maguire dragged on for too long, compared to fighting over 5m gbp, where time is way more valuable to have in the market than spending it on small things like this. We might have saved 5-15m on Wan B + Maguire, but it's not like these 5-15m comes to use elsewhere in the transfermarket. And we could have had Maguire last year for a smaller amount - Maddison is another good example of this. Will probably be more expensive next year, and we could have used this whole year to make him a pivotal part of our squad.

Ed never / rarely gets anything done early and it seems as if he can only negotiate at one table at a time. Reeks of slow, and probably also limitations from the Glazers to me. Ben Yedder was probably on Ole's list, but why didnt we sign him? Seems right now to be a great solution to current trouble. Bruno Fernandes - why didn't we get him neither? Both seems like natural solutions to our current trouble, but we've left it late and have been afraid of overpaying again, so Ed has prioritised to negotiate longer, but also for a "fair" price, which ultimately has lead to us probably not getting the players we need.

We are then to see if this tactic has positives in the next windows - If clubs demand less money from us, but I seriously doubt that it's a good place to be in when we need an overhaul of many players in the squad. I understand it's a tricky situation for Ed and he also needs to put the foot down, but it seems as if we're negotiating over nickels sometimes, and only during the transfer-window, rarely before it opens.

 

[Pughnichi]

It started during SAFs reign. Not his fault. Far from it. He did however leave a squad with:

3 of the back four close to retirement

A woeful central midfield with 2 close to retirement, 1 constantly injured + Cleverley and Anderson.

Again, not his fault. Was he allowed to spend? More so during the earlier Glazer years...

Blinded by his own brilliance. By far our worst EPL winning playing squad

 

[Kurton]

The scary thing for me is you have named 7 players and 3 where signed this summer . We have spent close to 1 billion in 7 years and we have absolutely nothing player wise to show for that spend . We are a club with no leadership. Ed is a great marketing man but his ego in not appointing a DOF is killing us . Woodward has showed how inept he is in the transfer market and I for one can't see that changing

I think it's too early to bank on the 3 summer signings. We've had similar situations with other players who played on world-class levels only to be later deemed as flops, di Maria, Bailly and Mkhi come to mind instantly. Give it some more time. We are capable of making any player shite within a season.

 

[Ronaldo's Love Child]

The challenge facing United is greater than we can ever even imagine. Mediocrity is cultural, it is a mindset that affects habits and behaviours. Not just that, mediocrity is also viral. You do not buy your way out of mediocrity in the January or Summer transfer windows, you fight your way out of it by changing your habits and values.

Any thoughts?

It's a challenge but not an impossible one. Most challenges can be met if the right preparation is done and hundreds of small decisions are coherently put in place.

As I've said before-let's write this season off. No expectations of any trophies. No expectations of any type of European competition next season. Remove the pressure from the manager, the players and the fans and let's start from there.

Begin with a style of play that suits the team. Expect to lose against better teams than us (there's no shame in that) but expect to beat the teams that are worse than us.

Until we get a coherent style of play then I'm not looking forward to ANY transfer windows as we'll be bringing new faces into a dysfunctional system

 

[Tel074]

This is not meant to criticise your comment about Woody but how hard is it to sell the MUFC brand for marketing?
With upwards of millions in the global fan base that’s not a hard ask for attracting company’s to agree to splash the cash for advertising and sponsorship benefits. If Woody had made a million for Bury I would have been impressed but for the United brand it’s pretty much a walk in the park - even in times of recession. This was a feature of United’s name going back to at least Bestie when companies clamoured to advertise. The greater problem appears to be the overall lack of footy expertise in the admin of players and squad, which was at one time the primary business. Maybe, the board no longer regard football as the primary business!

I totally agree . Football is not the most important thing to these owners . They don't care if we are 2nd or 4th they don't care if we win things because we are a cash cow . I can't see things getting any better anytime soon

 

[Dr. StrangeHate]

Oh bless, you DO get it. Your club is not special, and thus the bitching and the tubthumping "We Are Manchester United, not....." BS should cease.

We are the richest club in the world. That is what makes us different nothing else.

 

[Posh Red]

LVG and Jose would beg to differ.

Look the bottom line is that Woodward has tried the range of managers in the last 7 years. Its just not that obvious a solution.
Whinge all you want here but if it was that easy, they would have done it years ago instead of swing from one end to another.

I never said it was easy. Managers like Klopp are very difficult to come across and Liverpool were lucky to get him. I don’t rate LVG or Mourinho in the same bracket as Klopp anymore. Neither of those managers were as highly rated as Klopp when they joined United.

 

[red thru&thru]

I never said it was easy. Managers like Klopp are very difficult to come across and Liverpool were lucky to get him. I don’t rate LVG or Mourinho in the same bracket as Klopp anymore. Neither of those managers were as highly rated as Klopp when they joined United.

Jose was rated higher than Klopp. The man guaranteed you a title.

But were there reservations of picking Jose over Klopp at United? 100%. We knew that the two managers were chalk and cheese in managing styles. Jose was all about now and not really bringing through the youth. He was brash. He was in your face and not the classy type that United were used to. So you could say, he wasn't a fit for United.

Whereas Klopp, well, we have all seen what Klopp is. He did the same things at Dortmund that he is doing now at Lfc. It was clear as day to see he was the better fit. But again, Ed manage to F**K that up too.

But I will also say, Klopp hasn't done all the work at Lfc. It was years of planning by FSG. They took over the previous owners and changed things around. So to just say Klopp came in and changed it for Lfc would be false and discrediting the FSG group.

 

[HackeyC]

The scary thing for me is you have named 7 players and 3 where signed this summer . We have spent close to 1 billion in 7 years and we have absolutely nothing player wise to show for that spend . We are a club with no leadership. Ed is a great marketing man but his ego in not appointing a DOF is killing us . Woodward has showed how inept he is in the transfer market and I for one can't see that changing

I absolutely recognise that. In fairness of the three, two were obvious but James is a great buy.

 

[Jaqen H'ghar]

But we've also had the likes of Depay, Schneiderlin, Shaw (don't think he has done much yet), Bailly, Lukaku etc. Not superstars but talented upcoming players who were playing great for their respective teams when we bought them. The amount of flops we've had just does not make sense. Only Herrera and Martial have been decent. And the amount of turn over of players doesn't point to a constant group of players who have underperformed. Bar de Gea and Jones none from the current squad were there in Moyes's regime, but we still had a crap season

I was making a point that it's disengenious to pretend that we have a great squad and the fault was completely on the successive managerers for not being able to get them playing champagne football.

The players you mentioned flopped for different reasons. I think it's a point worthy of discussion why we, as a club, seem unable to provide players with an environment to thrive. I blame lack of vision and proper structure leading to a negative dressing room culture.

I'm not saying managers are faultless, but that they are a small part of a much bigger problem.

I don't get the logic of players not right for the system either. Except for Dan James, every other player we bought was from some club in the top leagues. So these are accomplished players and not sub-par like Bebe. Sure they might not have all the attributes, but there should be some way to maximize the skills that these players have. Don't think every other club has ideal players for every position

Regarding the bolded part, every player looks good in a system that plays to their strengths, or out of depth in a system that highlights their weaknesses. A small, slow technical player in a team playing direct football, while his lack of pace may not be so obvious in a possession team. It's not about quality, because no player is complete, it's about deciding what is needed, what attributes to prioritize, then finding players who fit the profile.

I agree with the rewarding mediocrity part though, specially with silly wages we pay. But I could also be because we seem unable to make players better. We always sell for a loss. So at some point you have to keep some of them. Can't keep buying players who keep being flops

We have to keep some, yes, but we don't have to pay them more than they are worth. It makes them impossible to move on and upgrade if they flop and affects the wage structure of the whole team. Better players compare their salaries to the overpaid dross on the bench and ask for silly money, and it will keep escalating (DDG wants to get more than Sanchez, which would seem fair. So now Pogba reportedly wants 600k per week, etc) . A wage structure at this point would make sense.

 

[fastwalker]

At this stage, mediocrity would actually represent a step forward.

 

[spiriticon]

At this stage, mediocrity would actually represent a step forward.

haha I was going to say. I would settle for mediocrity at this moment in time.