I don’t know if you are old enough to remember Cambodia under Pol Pot, or Uganda under Idi Amin, but they are proof that the above rule needs to be a touch more nuanced.
The U.S. and Israel attack Iran | Peace deal finally on?
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In the latest edition of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) chats to author, Dan Williamson, about his new book 'If I Hadnt Seen Such Riches' which chronicles our 1990/91 European Cup Winners Cup victory, which is a trip down memory lane for those old enough to remember it and a vital history lesson for those who don't.
I don’t know if you are old enough to remember Cambodia under Pol Pot, or Uganda under Idi Amin, but they are proof that the above rule needs to be a touch more nuanced.
So even nore people can needlessly die?
So you would have been on Hitler's side in WW2, after all his country was being invaded?
Utterly silly example. Remind me how WW2 started?
I could be wrong but didn't Germany start the invading?
No white text? Seriously?
Iran isn't Nazi Germany. They hadn't started this war by invading neighbouring countries, nor are they the ones who even fired first. Its an absurdly silly parallel.
Some achievement of Trump and Netanyahu that they’ve made people root for Iran in this
You're not wrong - what is going on in this thread today
I thought things had gone off the rails when we were talking about 5,000 US troops launching a ground invasion of Iran proper.
It feels quite obvious to me that people rooting for Iran are doing so for the people of Iran and for the right of those people not to be bombed the shit out of or subject to ground invasion where more atrocities against civilians would occur rather than the regime.
Looks like an MEU is still a ways away from being in theater...
Its hardly surprising. Personally, one may want one's government or people in the government to die a horrible death, for the things they do or the deaths they cause. But that doesn't mean one wants to have foreign government come and drop bombs on everyone and hope only the bad guys die.
At least a good % of citizens of any country would rather deal with their domestic demons on their own, rather than being taken care by foreigners, especially the ones with the history of causing mass deaths by their actions.
That is the obvious and more palatable answer but I get the impression that there’s a lot who want to see the US and Israel ‘lose’ (militarily) rather than “the people of Iran win”
Probably the worst example possible to pick. That half arsed Saar offensive attempt by France aside, Nazi Germany was literally about 20-0 when it came to being the first to invade.
That must be a troll comment to be honest:
Of all the examples to pick that include some unanimous justified invasions like Cambodia, 1971 East Pakistan, Kosovo etc,
He had to choose the most ridiculous example...
Of all the examples to pick that include some unanimous justified invasions like Cambodia, 1971 East Pakistan, Kosovo etc,
He had to choose the most ridiculous example...
If its true that the US have been talking with a "top person" and Mojtaba still doesnt appear anywhere publically does that mean Iran might be split at the top?
Becaude there have been some officials denying it. Hmmm...
Becaude there have been some officials denying it. Hmmm...
No, I'm not. Repeating that people who have stated over and over they don't like the iranian theocracy are indeed cheerleading for the theocracy won't make it true.
Of course, different countries and circumstances, by surprise I just mean they cause the invaders enough damage they are forced to halt the invasion. Even though america is much stronger than russia, their people don't have the same tolerance for the absurd numbers of dead soldiers russia seems to be able to put up with.
Ideally someone convinces trump it would be stupid to do it.
Cambodia tried to invade vietnam before the vietnamese invasion and uganda tried to invade tanzania before the tanzanian invasion. Iran has not tried to invade america or israel.
Did you support ukraine surrendering on day 1 of the war to stop more people from being killed?
America being the moral police is the biggest of all ever pisstakes.
Led by a paedo rapist cnut. Backed up by a load of fox news cnuts. Supported by 40% of the population who are either so stupid they can’t see what is happening or do see it and support it.
And if all that fails apparently they are stand up Christian people doing gods work. feck off with that shit.
Edit - I actually agree with you I needed to vent
You'd think this is obvious. Apparently we live in a world where nuance is alien, and we're stuck with a choice of endorsing a pedo-genocidal alliance carrying out an invasion or backing an oppressive theocracy. Its 2001 all over again.
If they invade, both things will be entangled. I would be more than happy for trump to back down, say he won, have a big parade in washington and iranians civilians stop being bombed.
It’s quite a lot easier to empathise when you have family (who don’t like the existing regime at all) in Tehran and who also are now worried if they have enough drinking water for the next few days
They are my in laws and due to circumstance I don’t know them very well but seem to be genuinely good people. My wife’s uncle did 13 years porridge for criticising something or other hence the distaste for the current status quo.
Killing everyone isn’t the answer though.
I believe in sovereignty and self determination of all peoples.
I would love to see the iranian theocracy fall, I would love to see the world stop the stupid embargoes on iran, try to open the country, flood them with western commodities and grow the level of life of their people so they can themselves build a society capable of transitioning to a better system This is not a dream, it has happened in many countries.
But if a foreign invader decides to determine the future of a country by killings tens of thousands of civilians in the process, then I hope the invaders get their ass kicked. It's no anti americanism, I wish the same for russia, I wish the same for israel, I wish the same for venezuela when they threaten to invade guyana, when ethiopia threatens to invade somalia and so on.
No, they were attacked not doing the attacking, that's as dumb a question as the answer I gave in response to your earlier comment, at least I'll own that
Iran is also being attacked... the point of the dumb question was to show the flaw in your logic. It's fine to want ukraine to kick invaders' ass when they are invaded by russia but somehow it's dumb to want the same for iran if they are invaded by america?
You wish the same for the Taliban, or The Khmer Rouge, or Vichy French, or MAGA Americans, or Fidesz Hungrians, or the Nazi's pre-war, or the Maoist in China or North Koreans when they took power? Those weren't/aren't invading armies, those were within, all claiming that can as exactly put it "they can themselves build a society capable of transitioning to a better system. This is not a dream, it has happened in many countries." And that's from within, and you can't claim the CIA enginereed all that. The Soviet Union wasn't invaded, they won the war. As did the North North Koreans. You think the life of an average North Korean rice farmer is great? Good luck to you. Yeah, they have "Self-determination."
Who else has self-determination? All the women wearing burkas and can't drive, or divorce, in the Middle East.
You want to be "self-determination"? Yeah, you go to some of the "self-determined" places and see how much you like it. I suggest Afganistan first, go self-determine from there.
No one should be attacking anyone, but as you say you always side with the ones being invaded, that is not always the correct choice even if my example wasn't a good one
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I'm not sure you understood my post.
I want iranian society to develop as freely as possible (without threats or embargoes) so they can build a society capable of achieving self determination from the theocrats. We know from history that a country that develops economically generates a society more intolerant to authoritarianism (xi wouldn't be able to make half the things mao did, chinese society has evolved).
An american invasion would create more chaos, misery and death and set back that society many decades. The opposite of what I want for the iranian people in their struggle for self determination.
Can you give me some examples of countries who didn't invade anyone, were themselves invaded and the quality of life improved for its citizens?
No, I understood it, but now you're just backing off and backing down off what you said, per se. So, NOW what you are basically saying now, is "I support theoretical things like "I wish it would all be butterflies and waterlilies and there would be no war anymore and that's what self-determination is in my view even if I whitewash it, like, look how great China is now???" Isn't great how "Chinese society has evolved? (Your words, not mine.)". Yeah, I'm sure a ton of people just love it.
You don't answer anything, you just dodge, deflect and throw darts.
Now, you tell me, how is it better if Iran kills a lot of Americans, which you seem to support. Because I'll tell you what will happen if Iran kills a lot of Americans:
1) The American public will double-down start to support and what is already a very unpopular war.
2) If you thought innocent Iranians were killed so far, wait and see what happens nect.
3) So when you post "If they invade, let's hope iran can pull a ukraine and surprise everyone." you need to have word with yourself. Because the surprise will not be something you like or can "self-determine".
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I'm not backing off, I stand by everything I said.
Removing embargoes and military threats are butterflies and water-lilies? No, they are policies that the west has adopted all over the world.
I didn't say china is great, please don't put words in my mouth. I said that because the chinese dictatorship improved the material quality of live of its people, they also created a society where the absolute mad policies of mao would be impossible nowadays. So yes, china has evolved a lot in terms of human rights and only someone who wants to strawman would say that's the same as saying china is great and people love it.
"xi wouldn't be able to make half the things mao did, chinese society has evolved"
Honestly, what the F does that mean?
It means the current population of china would not accept the type of policies where millions of citizens were sacrificed to accomplish some big state project of for some new economic policy.
But your example doesn't make sense whatsoever.
You've basically stated Qatari's are not competent because they have Al-Udied (despite it being empty.)
That implication is that the US are training them so they appear competent.
Regardless of what caused their competency, doesn't make them defacto competent?
What am I missing here?
So the reaction to an invasion from a hostile aggressive empire is to roll over? I'm happy you're not advising zelensky.
The american public would double down on something impopular and demand more of its own soldiers be sent to die for their criminal president? I guess it's possible, but I think it's more likely the pressure would be too much for trump and his cronies to take.
What are you even talking about? I never even advocated for any of that. I’m pro-Ukraine, anti-Trump but I’m not the one going around talking about “If they invade, let's hope iran can pull an ukraine and surprise everyone.” That’s your post, not mine. So you can own it and apologise and say “I’m sorry that happened” or you can own it and take it.
Because I’m saying yes, more American deaths would shift public opinion to being pro-war so fast it’ll make your head spin. I don’t even need to prove it that much, British in the Falklands, Pearl Harbour, 9/11, etc.
You want to play with those sorts of odds? I wouldn’t.
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Can someone else please take this, because i got an unwarranted warning.