The U.S. and Israel attack Iran | Peace deal finally on?

JPRouve said:
On a useless sidenote, these planes are so loud, it's unreal. As are cargo helicopters.
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One of the biggest requirements in the new FVL program to replace Black Hawks was sound dampening. V-280 is like 1/3rd decibells quieter than Black Hawks (though its still loud).

Being near the older generation vertical lift aircraft is excruciating, without earmuffs you're getting long term hearing damage.

Ospreys are also really obnoxiously loud.
 
JPRouve said:
On a useless sidenote, these planes are so loud, it's unreal. As are cargo helicopters.
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Of all the issues of being in a C-130, sound was the least for me. Being strapped perpendicular to the direction of movement on a bumpy flight gives me incredible nausea.
 
Ahmer Baig said:
I always hated that.
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The most annoying part is that apparently they can actually arrange it so that the seats are in rows like on a normal passenger plane, especially when there's no goods being carried. Ground crews could never be arsed to actually do that so often it was always like 3 of us sat like dickheads perpendicular to the plane with a big empty space in the middle flying for 5 hours.

I always take sickness pills before getting on those.
 
gaffs said:
I don't think that is the case. Anytime I see a Democrat on TV, they are talking about rising cost, an unconstitutional war and Trump backtracking on his campain promises for no new wars and to lower costs.

The issue is that they don't have the megaphone and they don't a single voice that can break through all of Trumps noise. And I don't think they will until the Dem primaries start to kick off. Only then will the media start to focus on what Dems are saying.
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I think there's also an element of not giving the impression they are not supporting the military folks, Trump would pounce on that
 
What's the big deal with one plane being shot down? Going on like they've blow up an army based with 100 people in it
 
Factory hit in Israel, does it look like damage from debris?

 
The Corinthian said:
Ah, orientalism, we meet again.
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Mate, kindly stop. I interviewed people who were tortured by IRGC in Syria. Assad specifically got them in because Syrian Intelligence were pretty bad at extracting information, so IRGC stepped in (not that it helped).

Stop calling every criticism of every anti-Western organization racism.
 
AfonsoAlves said:
Mate, kindly stop. I interviewed people who were tortured by IRGC in Syria. Assad specifically got them in because Syrian Intelligence were pretty bad at extracting information, so IRGC stepped in (not that it helped).

Stop calling every criticism of every anti-Western organization racism.
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Did you also interview people tortured by the US?
 
AfonsoAlves said:
Mate, kindly stop. I interviewed people who were tortured by IRGC in Syria. Assad specifically got them in because Syrian Intelligence were pretty bad at extracting information, so IRGC stepped in (not that it helped).

Stop calling every criticism of every anti-Western organization racism.
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The issue is not that the iranians torture people, I think we all know they do. The issue is calling guantanamo disneyland as comparison. Considering the stories we've heard from people who were there, it was at least in bad taste.
 
stefan92 said:
It's a variant of it. Claiming that plane isn't a C-130 is like claiming 747-8 isn't a Jumbo Jet
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What? That's a bizarre comparison. Jumbo jet is just a slang term for a big commercial aircraft.

A C-130 is a basic plane chassis. Of which you have a huge number of variants - the majority of which are transport/cargo planes.

An AC-130 is basically an artillery gunship, and a HC-130 is used for Search missions.

Claiming an AC-130/HC-130 is a C-130 is like claiming Airforce one is just a Boeing 747. It's so far derived from it's chassis that its not the same thing anymore.

For a more direct military comparison - it's like claiming a Stug III is a Panzer III. When a Stug III was destroyed an American AAR was never reporting that a Panzer III got destroyed.

That twitter post explicitly said it was a C-130 Cargo aircraft, which is incorrect.
 
Millions of people are cursing the backs off Israel and the USA every time they go to the pump at the moment. Won’t be winning any popularity contests anytime soon, doubt they care.
 
Personally I prefer my torture and indefinite detention to come at the hands of civilised Americans. Same as my war crimes.

Makes it feel so much better compared to when it’s happening at the hands of others.
 
AfonsoAlves said:
Mate, kindly stop. I interviewed people who were tortured by IRGC in Syria. Assad specifically got them in because Syrian Intelligence were pretty bad at extracting information, so IRGC stepped in (not that it helped).

Stop calling every criticism of every anti-Western organization racism.
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:lol:
 
AfonsoAlves said:
Mate, kindly stop. I interviewed people who were tortured by IRGC in Syria. Assad specifically got them in because Syrian Intelligence were pretty bad at extracting information, so IRGC stepped in (not that it helped).

Stop calling every criticism of every anti-Western organization racism.
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Your tone is like an old world colonial who sees violence against the natives as logic and their urge to resist as barbaric. Its hilariously transparent. So be prepared for accusations along those lines.
 
prateik said:
Did you also interview people tortured by the US?
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Yes, ironically.

maniak said:
The issue is not that the iranians torture people, I think we all know they do. The issue is calling guantanamo disneyland as comparison. Considering the stories we've heard from people who were there, it was at least in bad taste.
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Not really. By the time Gitmo was fully established, the "Enhanced Interrogation Program" was already in quite a mature stage. When 9/11 happened, CIA went around torturing people trying to get as much information as possible out of any seemingly connected HUMINT source they could find.

The first stages were brutal, we're talking maiming, causing permanent physical damage and just maximising physical pain as their torture technique. Within the first 6 months they realized this wasn't yielding results. They moved from inflicting as much physical pain as possible to torturing people with mental torture instead. Things like humiliation, sleep deprivation, being forced into a low intensity but long endurance uncomfortable position, blasting loud music, days/weeks without any human interaction. Any "physical" damage they did was designed to not be permanent, (waterboarding, etc). Then the idea was with a reward system whereby the victim was promised it would all end if they would spill the info. Quite a few reasons for this:

- A few people died under CIA torture in late 2001 which is not what you want when you're trying to extract information.
- People tend to withdraw mentally completely when under immense physical pain, others have their health so physically deteriorated that again, if your goal is to extract information having the person being tortured become unresponsive isn't a great outcome.
- Some of the victims were so badly hurt they needed medical attention to keep them alive, which basically delays the whole process of extracting information.
- The idea was that the mental pain with the incentive of having it all stop would be a greater incentive than "I will die quickly so the pain will stop."

By the time Guantanamo Bay was fully operational, the CIA had moved on from the physical maimings. All this is documented from various senate hearings about CIA conduct in the Middle East.

IRGC in Syria were CIA in late 2001. Chopping off hands, genitals, fingers, toes, just constant physical brutality. When incorrect/no information could be extracted, they physically beat them even more. When victims died, they just moved on to the next victim because during the peak of the Civil war there were so many captured "rebels" amongst other prisoners. For the entire duration of the war, this modus operandi by the IRGC never changed.

So I don't believe it's in bad taste to say that IRGC torture programs in Syria were far worse for the victim than Guantanamo Bay.
 
AfonsoAlves said:
Yes, ironically.



Not really. By the time Gitmo was fully established, the "Enhanced Interrogation Program" was already in quite a mature stage. When 9/11 happened, CIA went around torturing people trying to get as much information as possible out of any seemingly connected HUMINT source they could find.

The first stages were brutal, we're talking maiming, causing permanent physical damage and just maximising physical pain as their torture technique. Within the first 6 months they realized this wasn't yielding results. They moved from inflicting as much physical pain as possible to torturing people with mental torture instead. Things like humiliation, sleep deprivation, being forced into a low intensity but long endurance uncomfortable position, blasting loud music, days/weeks without any human interaction. Any "physical" damage they did was designed to not be permanent, (waterboarding, etc). Then the idea was with a reward system whereby the victim was promised it would all end if they would spill the info. Quite a few reasons for this:

- A few people died under CIA torture in late 2001 which is not what you want when you're trying to extract information.
- People tend to withdraw mentally completely when under immense physical pain, others have their health so physically deteriorated that again, if your goal is to extract information having the person being tortured become unresponsive isn't a great outcome.
- Some of the victims were so badly hurt they needed medical attention to keep them alive, which basically delays the whole process of extracting information.
- The idea was that the mental pain with the incentive of having it all stop would be a greater incentive than "I will die quickly so the pain will stop."

By the time Guantanamo Bay was fully operational, the CIA had moved on from the physical maimings. All this is documented from various senate hearings about CIA conduct in the Middle East.

IRGC in Syria were CIA in late 2001. Chopping off hands, genitals, fingers, toes, just constant physical brutality. When incorrect/no information could be extracted, they physically beat them even more. When victims died, they just moved on to the next victim because during the peak of the Civil war there were so many captured "rebels" amongst other prisoners. For the entire duration of the war, this modus operandi by the IRGC never changed.

So I don't believe it's in bad taste to say that IRGC torture programs in Syria were far worse for the victim than Guantanamo Bay.
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I don't know what to say, such a wild post. Your last sentence kinda proves what other posters are saying.
 
moses said:
Your tone is like an old world colonial who sees violence against the natives as logic and their urge to resist as barbaric. Its hilariously transparent. So be prepared for accusations along those lines.
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How is comparing IRGC torture program to Gitmo torture program and drawing conclusions of the brutality...old world colonial?!
 
maniak said:
I don't know what to say, such a wild post. Your last sentence kinda proves what other posters are saying.
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Why is this wild?

My original post was a statement that IRGC torture methods in Syria made Guantanamo Bay look easy in retrospect and this post highlights the reason why I believe that.

I'm not justifying torture, I'm not saying CIA in certain elements and time periods didn't do exactly what the IRGC were doing (they did), I'm highlighting a comparison between IRGC (because rumours were they were the ones who captured the pilot) and a well known US torture program in Gitmo.
 
Maybe we should create a specific thread on torture. Best and worst countries at it.
 
AfonsoAlves said:
Why is this wild?

My original post was a statement that IRGC torture methods in Syria made Guantanamo Bay look easy in retrospect and this post highlights the reason why I believe that.

I'm not justifying torture, I'm not saying CIA in certain elements and time periods didn't do exactly what the IRGC were doing (they did), I'm highlighting a comparison between IRGC (because rumours were they were the ones who captured the pilot) and a well known US torture program in Gitmo.
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The general idea of comparing torture programs is wild.

I won't go into torture details because I have zero interest in it.

But I'll expand on why one could argue the US torturing people can be worse that iran. Not because of methods, because torture is torture. But iran is a brutal dictatorship, there's zero civilian oversight, crime is to be expected. The US is a democracy, you mentioned oversight committees yourself, civilians know about it. Where are the consequences? How many top military people are in jail because of it? Why aren't bush and obama in jail?
 
maniak said:
The general idea of comparing torture programs is wild.

I won't go into torture details because I have zero interest in it.

But I'll expand on why one could argue the US torturing people can be worse that iran. Not because of methods, because torture is torture. But iran is a brutal dictatorship, there's zero civilian oversight, crime is to be expected. The US is a democracy, you mentioned oversight committees yourself, civilians know about it. Where are the consequences? How many top military people are in jail because of it? Why aren't bush and obama in jail?
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I mean I don't disagree the whole thing is incredibly horrific - and to this day the program still hasn't fully died out yet. I also agree that democracies like the USA should be held far more accountable by its people than a theocratic dictatorship ever could.

But we weren't discussing the political side, we were discussing the impact on the victim and what could actually happen to them.

And from an individual victim perspective, I think it's valid to compare programs especially since it directly affects their chance of survival, well-being etc.

Things like conditions in Soviet Gulags vs Nazi concentration camps is something that is quite widely discussed, as is things like South Vietnamese treatment of Viet-cong POW's compared to NVA treatment of American POW's etc.
 
AfonsoAlves said:
What? That's a bizarre comparison. Jumbo jet is just a slang term for a big commercial aircraft.

A C-130 is a basic plane chassis. Of which you have a huge number of variants - the majority of which are transport/cargo planes.

An AC-130 is basically an artillery gunship, and a HC-130 is used for Search missions.

Claiming an AC-130/HC-130 is a C-130 is like claiming Airforce one is just a Boeing 747. It's so far derived from it's chassis that its not the same thing anymore.

For a more direct military comparison - it's like claiming a Stug III is a Panzer III. When a Stug III was destroyed an American AAR was never reporting that a Panzer III got destroyed.

That twitter post explicitly said it was a C-130 Cargo aircraft, which is incorrect.
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You're being a bit pedantic here

An F-15C is different to an F-15D which is different to an F-15E - they're all F-15's though
 
AfonsoAlves said:
Statistically the Stasi were the most effective.
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I was under the impression that they were just ubiquitous- one informer for every 6.5 citizens is the commonly stated (but slightly absurd) statistic.

But I can imagine them being brutally efficient. Or efficiently brutal.
 
AfonsoAlves said:
Mate, kindly stop. I interviewed people who were tortured by IRGC in Syria. Assad specifically got them in because Syrian Intelligence were pretty bad at extracting information, so IRGC stepped in (not that it helped).

Stop calling every criticism of every anti-Western organization racism.
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I’ve gone to mosque with people who were in Guantanamo. I went to the funeral of one of their mother’s just two months ago. Do you think they’d describe it as Disneyland?
 
AfonsoAlves said:
How is comparing IRGC torture program to Gitmo torture program and drawing conclusions of the brutality...old world colonial?!
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The issue is that you are making the comparison in the first place. You are the one who chose to compare IRGC torture program (ran by one side of this war) to Guantanamo Bay (ran by the other side of this war). Intentionally or not ( I would wager 'not' ), it is an implicit comparison between the two sides of the war, that paints one side as more brutal than the other.

But Guantanamo Bay is not the only place where the U.S./Israel side has tortured people. The most famous images of U.S. torture are from Abu Ghraib. The U.S. military was beating, raping, and killing prisoners there long after the CIA had their epiphany that 'too much torture is bad' in late 2001, as per your post. Then of course we have all the torture that Israel has been doing over the last two years.
 
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