The U.S. and Israel attack Iran

If what you're saying is true then why did defense stocks fall during the Iran war ? The article you cited to substantiate your position seems to undercut it.

The articles I cited are very clear. Companies are projecting an increase in profit due to higher demand because of the iran war.
 
It's all so clear I can't believe we're actually debating whether military companies have more profits during wars.

https://www.ft.com/content/bd7626de-c367-4e64-ab94-e84c2d10d87f?syn-25a6b1a6=1

Its paywalled.

Bottom line is defense companies make money irrespective of whether there's an ongoing war or not because the US is in a technological arms race with China recently, and unlike in China where the CCP can nationalize their industrial base - the US, as a free capitalist country has to rely on the innovation of its own defense industrial base to improve its military to keep up with China. Therefore there will always be rises in defense budgets as alluded to in my last post. The US defense budget will have risen by 100% between 2020 and 2027; a vast majority of that time was without major combat operations.
 
The articles I cited are very clear. Companies are projecting an increase in profit due to higher demand because of the iran war.

Can you address why defense stocks fell (according to your own article) after the Iran war began ? If what you're saying was true, wouldn't they rise sharply based on the expectation of having to produce new munitions ?
 
Its paywalled.

Bottom line is defense companies make money irrespective of whether there's an ongoing war or not because the US is in a technological arms race with China recently, and unlike in China where the CCP can nationalize their industrial base - the US, as a free capitalist country has to rely on the innovation of its own defense industrial base to improve its military to keep up with China. Therefore there will always be rises in defense budgets as alluded to in my last post. The US defense budget will have risen by 100% between 2020 and 2027; a vast majority of that time was without major combat operations.

You're moving the goal posts. Of course they will always make money, but you said it was a fallacy saying they make more money when there's an ongoing war. All the data suggests they will make more money because of the iran war.
 
You're moving the goal posts. Of course they will always make money, but you said it was a fallacy saying they make more money when there's an ongoing war. All the data suggests they will make more money because of the iran war.

This point was already addressed on the previous page before you waded in.
 
Its paywalled.

Bottom line is defense companies make money irrespective of whether there's an ongoing war or not because the US is in a technological arms race with China recently, and unlike in China where the CCP can nationalize their industrial base - the US, as a free capitalist country has to rely on the innovation of its own defense industrial base to improve its military to keep up with China. Therefore there will always be rises in defense budgets as alluded to in my last post. The US defense budget will have risen by 100% between 2020 and 2027; a vast majority of that time was without major combat operations.

Sure, platform-driven programs (B-21, F-35 Block IV, F-47/NGAD) are China driven, PACOM facing, multi-year, and predate the Iran War. That part is true.

What is not true is that the Iran War has "zero impact" on defense contractor profits. That was made clear in July earnings calls from both Lockheed and RTX. And the June contract specifically relates to munitions depleted by Iran and Ukraine.

"The U.S. has used more than 50,000 rockets, missiles and rocket-propelled munitions since the start of the Russia-Ukraine conflict in 2022 and throughout the U.S. attack on Iran, which began on February 28, according to Pentagon data.
Lockheed’s missiles and fire control revenue rose nearly 20% to $4.1 billion, driven by a production ramp-up of its PAC-3 and precision strike missiles, ⁠both of which have been used in the war on Iran in the ‌last few months. The segment was also ‌helped by higher production of its THAAD missile interceptors, after the company signed a $35 billion contract with the U.S. government in June to quadruple output.
“The government is giving us ⁠a lot more flexibility than they traditionally would have done… so that we can be faster,” Lockheed Martin’s CEO Jim Taiclet said on the post-earnings call."
https://www.spokesman.com/stories/2026/jul/23/lockheed-martin-rtx-lift-2026-forecasts-as-pentago/
 
Can you address why defense stocks fell (according to your own article) after the Iran war began ? If what you're saying was true, wouldn't they rise sharply based on the expectation of having to produce new munitions ?

Again, moving the goal posts.

You replied to someone saying these companies would have a windfall of new orders. You said this was incorrect. The articles I posted confirm it is indeed correct.
 
You're moving the goal posts. Of course they will always make money, but you said it was a fallacy saying they make more money when there's an ongoing war. All the data suggests they will make more money because of the iran war.

You've shown absolutely no data. None. An article is "Not data."

Data is showing me the amendments where DoD tendered procurement orders specifically to order munitions pertaining to the Iran War.

FY27 budget is out there. Congressional reconcillation has not happened yet due to the fact that NDAA has not passed yet and it has a October 1st Deadline.

So far, there have been 0 proposals, amendments or such, documented. There have been no amendments to FY27.

DoD cannot order more stuff without amendments to FY26 or FY27. A bill was passed in the house to provide an amendment to FY26 for operational costs...it hasn't passed Senate yet and has not been signed into law. That's the closest thing to what you're describing.

This stuff is all out there publically.

Again, if what you say is true, show me the adjustments to FY26 for extra munitions ordered for the Iran War.
 
It is true that platform-driven programs (B-21, F-35 Block IV, F-47/NGAD) are China driven, PACOM facing and predate the Iran War. That part is true.

What is not true is that the Iran War has "zero impact" on defense contractor profits. That was made clear in July earnings calls from both Lockheed and RTX. And the June contract specifically relates to munitions depleted by Iran and Ukraine.

"The U.S. has used more than 50,000 rockets, missiles and rocket-propelled munitions since the start of the Russia-Ukraine conflict in 2022 and throughout the U.S. attack on Iran, which began on February 28, according to Pentagon data.

Lockheed’s missiles and fire control revenue rose nearly 20% to $4.1 billion, driven by a production ramp-up of its PAC-3 and precision strike missiles, ⁠both of which have been used in the war on Iran in the ‌last few months. The segment was also ‌helped by higher production of its THAAD missile interceptors, after the company signed a $35 billion contract with the U.S. government in June to quadruple output.

“The government is giving us ⁠a lot more flexibility than they traditionally would have done… so that we can be faster,” Lockheed Martin’s CEO Jim Taiclet said on the post-earnings call."
https://www.spokesman.com/stories/2026/jul/23/lockheed-martin-rtx-lift-2026-forecasts-as-pentago/

Agreed. I don't think it has zero impact either. Its simply one of a multitude of factors that drive defense spending - a vast majority of which is done in peace time while the US is in a constant state of preparing for the next big war - most recently against China and the ultimate showdown about Taiwan. Post pandemic inflation and Trump's desire to spend exorbitant amounts on the military so he will be remembered as the President who "rebuilt" the military (inclusive of starting Space Force and others projects) are also a big factor.
 
You've shown absolutely no data. None. An article is "Not data."

Data is showing me the amendments where DoD tendered procurement orders specifically to order munitions pertaining to the Iran War.

FY27 budget is out there. Congressional reconcillation has not happened yet due to the fact that NDAA has not passed yet and it has a October 1st Deadline.

So far, there have been 0 proposals, amendments or such, documented. There have been no amendments to FY27.

DoD cannot order more stuff without amendments to FY26 or FY27. A bill was passed in the house to provide an amendment to FY26 for operational costs...it hasn't passed Senate yet and has not been signed into law. That's the closest thing to what you're describing.

This stuff is all out there publically.

Again, if what you say is true, show me the adjustments to FY26 for extra munitions ordered for the Iran War.

Mate... the companies themselves are saying they will produce more and get more money because of the iran war.

Have I fallen into the twilight zone or something?
 
Sure, platform-driven programs (B-21, F-35 Block IV, F-47/NGAD) are China driven, PACOM facing, multi-year, and predate the Iran War. That part is true.

What is not true is that the Iran War has "zero impact" on defense contractor profits. That was made clear in July earnings calls from both Lockheed and RTX. And the June contract specifically relates to munitions depleted by Iran and Ukraine.

"The U.S. has used more than 50,000 rockets, missiles and rocket-propelled munitions since the start of the Russia-Ukraine conflict in 2022 and throughout the U.S. attack on Iran, which began on February 28, according to Pentagon data.
Lockheed’s missiles and fire control revenue rose nearly 20% to $4.1 billion, driven by a production ramp-up of its PAC-3 and precision strike missiles, ⁠both of which have been used in the war on Iran in the ‌last few months. The segment was also ‌helped by higher production of its THAAD missile interceptors, after the company signed a $35 billion contract with the U.S. government in June to quadruple output.
“The government is giving us ⁠a lot more flexibility than they traditionally would have done… so that we can be faster,” Lockheed Martin’s CEO Jim Taiclet said on the post-earnings call."
https://www.spokesman.com/stories/2026/jul/23/lockheed-martin-rtx-lift-2026-forecasts-as-pentago/

But all of this stuff was *prior* to the Iran war kicking off. I even posted about it in February when the DoD gathered the contractors to discuss ramping up munitions procurement for PACCOM.

https://breakingdefense.com/2026/02...on-of-five-weapons-in-new-deal-with-pentagon/

https://defenceleaders.com/news/u-s...tract-to-accelerate-pac-3-missile-production/

https://defensearchives.com/news/pe...in-pac-3-mse-production-from-lockheed-martin/

https://www.defensenews.com/industr...eing-agree-to-triple-pac-3-seeker-production/

All dated prior to the shooting war began.

Just because it was finalized during the Iran war, doesn't mean these weren't all in place prior.
 
But all of this stuff was *prior* to the Iran war kicking off. I even posted about it in February when the DoD gathered the contractors to discuss ramping up munitions procurement for PACCOM.

https://breakingdefense.com/2026/02...on-of-five-weapons-in-new-deal-with-pentagon/

https://defenceleaders.com/news/u-s...tract-to-accelerate-pac-3-missile-production/

https://defensearchives.com/news/pe...in-pac-3-mse-production-from-lockheed-martin/

https://www.defensenews.com/industr...eing-agree-to-triple-pac-3-seeker-production/

All dated prior to the shooting war began.

Just because it was finalized during the Iran war, doesn't mean these weren't all in place prior.

This has largely been an anti-war conspiracy theory since the Iraq war days when Dick Cheney was the pantomime villain of the moment and everyone thought the war was happening to fatten the wallets of defense contractors. The reality is that in a capitalist country, the government has to rely on its private defense industrial base to constantly innovate new technologies and weapons to keep up with great power competition (previously against the Soviets, presently against a rapidly expanding Chinese military build up).
 
But all of this stuff was *prior* to the Iran war kicking off. I even posted about it in February when the DoD gathered the contractors to discuss ramping up munitions procurement for PACCOM.

https://breakingdefense.com/2026/02...on-of-five-weapons-in-new-deal-with-pentagon/

https://defenceleaders.com/news/u-s...tract-to-accelerate-pac-3-missile-production/

https://defensearchives.com/news/pe...in-pac-3-mse-production-from-lockheed-martin/

https://www.defensenews.com/industr...eing-agree-to-triple-pac-3-seeker-production/

All dated prior to the shooting war began.

Just because it was finalized during the Iran war, doesn't mean these weren't all in place prior.

I think you missed this part from the earnings calls:
"The segment was also ‌helped by higher production of its THAAD missile interceptors, after the company signed a $35 billion contract with the U.S. government in June to quadruple output."

June is post-Iran War.

Also, still waiting for you to explain how by Bush it was "too late" regarding our earlier conversation. Are you arguing that by 2001 there was nothing possible to reverse what Clinton did in 1993? That nothing Bush could have spent differently from the $1-2.2 trillion that he spent on the Iraq War could have helped preparedness today? Or do you simply mean that base was simply badly damaged and would have required a sustained demand signal like what happened under Reagan in the early 1980s?
 
Mate... the companies themselves are saying they will produce more and get more money because of the iran war.

Have I fallen into the twilight zone or something?

The closest thing to that is maybe FY27 reconcilliation will order even more missiles to supplement the Iran war. That hasn't happened yet.

(I doubt that though, given that next years buys for missiles is at the absolute peak of production capacity for anybody).

The companies can say whatever the feck they want. Until the orders are there, on the budget, with clear headlines, what you're saying is simply not true.

The bottom line is very clear:

FY27 was made before the Iran war started. Orders and procurement numbers were devised before the shooting started. There has been zero adjustment to next years budget, or this years budget, to accomodate the military buying anything extra.

It is impossible for the DoD to buy any equipment extra from contractors without an amendment being passed on Fy26/reconcilliation on FY27.
 
The closest thing to that is maybe FY27 reconcilliation will order even more missiles to supplement the Iran war. That hasn't happened yet.

(I doubt that though, given that next years buys for missiles is at the absolute peak of production capacity for anybody).

The companies can say whatever the feck they want. Until the orders are there, on the budget, with clear headlines, what you're saying is simply not true.

The bottom line is very clear:

FY27 was made before the Iran war started. Orders and procurement numbers were devised before the shooting started. There has been zero adjustment to next years budget, or this years budget, to accomodate the military buying anything extra.

It is impossible for the DoD to buy any equipment extra from contractors without an amendment being passed on Fy26/reconcilliation on FY27.

I guess your debate is with the companies themselves then, they're the ones disagreeing with you. Calling reporting on what they say publicly peddling conspiracies is very strange, though.
 
I think you missed this part from the earnings calls:
"The segment was also ‌helped by higher production of its THAAD missile interceptors, after the company signed a $35 billion contract with the U.S. government in June to quadruple output."

June is post-Iran War.

Also, still waiting for you to explain how by Bush it was "too late" regarding our earlier conversation. Are you arguing that by 2001 there was nothing possible to reverse what Clinton did in 1993? That nothing Bush did to spend the $1-2.2 trillion on the Iraq War could have helped preparedness today?

The contract was finalized in June. There was talks of increasing THAAD production by 10x in 2025 October. FY27, prior to the Iran war starting, already had a 20x buy increase of THAAD's compared to the previous year.

They were already going to do that regardless of whether or not Iran war happened. Hell, i even posted a screenshot of this in this very thread. FY27 was already calculated prior to the iran war happening.

As for Bush, the rot was already done.

You've gutted the military industrial base. 50 years of expertise down the drain. Naval shipbuilding decreased 80% in 10 years in the 90's. 1 Trillion on something else wouldn't be enough to solve that problem.

That problem wasn't something that money could solve. Germany tried that, France tried that, it doesn't work. It takes decades to build up a military industrial complex.

It would have softened the edges somewhat, but no, the die was long cast. It's like how Napoleon threw absurd money building the French fleet after 1805. It did jack shit. Their naval budget eclipsed the British one and they got nothing out of it.

Of course, in this hypothetical scenario, it would have solved the issue if totally unrealistic propositions could unfold.

- US Navy themselves built, owned and managed shipyards to build ships.
- US military themselves decided to take the 5 prime contractors IP and mass produce themselves

Things like that would have worked - but its wholly unrealistic for a country like USA.
 
I guess your debate is with the companies themselves then, they're the ones disagreeing with you. Calling reporting on what they say publicly peddling conspiracies is very strange, though.

Because they always say shit like this and you know this.

How Lockheed assured shareholders they were going to get FA(XX) and then got kicked from the program a few weeks later.
Or how Sikorsky assured shareholders that they were going to win FLAA and stock prices skyrocketed, only for Bell to win with the V-280 Valor instead literally a few days later. Sikorsky even sued the DoD because they lost that contract.

You're basically choosing to believe a company saying, "Trust me bro, we're going to make a lot of money on the Iran war, buy our stocks!"
 
Because they always say shit like this and you know this.

How Lockheed assured shareholders they were going to get FA(XX) and then got kicked from the program a few weeks later.
Or how Sikorsky assured shareholders that they were going to win FLAA and stock prices skyrocketed, only for Bell to win with the V-280 Valor instead literally a few days later. Sikorsky even sued the DoD because they lost that contract.

You're basically choosing to believe a company saying, "Trust me bro, we're going to make a lot of money on the Iran war, buy our stocks!"

We also have to factor in that defense companies are producing more because of all the weapons that have been given to Ukraine over the past five years. Replenishing those with newer, more modern versions is also going to be a factor, along with things expended in Iran, and other acquisition programs such as F-35 and Space sales. Northrop is making a lot of money off Sentinel and B-21 which have nothing to do with the present situations in Ukraine or Iran. All of these are simply expensive programs that are growing in price due to inflation.
 
We also have to factor in that defense companies are producing more because of all the weapons that have been given to Ukraine over the past five years. Replenishing those with newer, more modern versions is also going to be a factor, along with things expended in Iran, and other acquisition programs such as F-35 and Space sales. Northrop is making a lot of money off Sentinel and B-21 which have nothing to do with the present situations in Ukraine or Iran. All of these are simply expensive programs that are growing in price due to inflation.

Surprisingly...B-21 is severely...under budget and well ahead of schedule...

It's an absolute miracle in this day and age.

But yeah, if someone were to make an argument that if FY27 got released with huge munitions numbers that were well higher than the pre-cursor procurement targets the DoD released in late 25/early 26, you could make a very solid arguments its due to the Iran war.

But so far nothing.

I've no doubt that *some* stuff will get changed in reconcilliation with congress, but ultimately, a) it hasn't happened yet and b) it will be small.

PACCOM is still the focus despite Trump.
 
The contract was finalized in June. There was talks of increasing THAAD production by 10x in 2025 October. FY27, prior to the Iran war starting, already had a 20x buy increase of THAAD's compared to the previous year.

They were already going to do that regardless of whether or not Iran war happened. Hell, i even posted a screenshot of this in this very thread. FY27 was already calculated prior to the iran war happening.

As for Bush, the rot was already done.

You've gutted the military industrial base. 50 years of expertise down the drain. Naval shipbuilding decreased 80% in 10 years in the 90's. 1 Trillion on something else wouldn't be enough to solve that problem.

That problem wasn't something that money could solve. Germany tried that, France tried that, it doesn't work. It takes decades to build up a military industrial complex.

It would have softened the edges somewhat, but no, the die was long cast. It's like how Napoleon threw absurd money building the French fleet after 1805. It did jack shit. Their naval budget eclipsed the British one and they got nothing out of it.

Of course, in this hypothetical scenario, it would have solved the issue if totally unrealistic propositions could unfold.

- US Navy themselves built, owned and managed shipyards to build ships.
- US military themselves decided to take the 5 prime contractors IP and mass produce themselves

Things like that would have worked - but its wholly unrealistic for a country like USA.


Got it. "The die was long cast," so Iraq is acquitted on shipbuilding.

You say it takes decades. Well, 2002 + decades = today! That's not an argument that 2002 was too late, it proves how costly the 2000s were to the future (now!). The lead time you're citing is exactly why 2002 was the moment and Bush blew it like he blew lines of cocaine in his youth.

On Napoleon: post-Trafalgar France could and did build hulls, they had a big fleet on paper. What he couldn't buy was crews, because the blockade denied his sailors sea time. Industrial capacity recovered but human expertise couldn't. Your analogy says the recoverable case is the one where the skilled nucleus survives. That's exactly what the 1990s actually preserved. Seawolf-3 and the Virginia program existed explicitly to keep Electric Boat's nuclear workforce alive and practicing. America in 2001 had the one asset Napoleon lacked, and lacked only what Napoleon had: volume orders.

We don't need hypotheticals to know the base could still execute and likely ramp up. Literally, the same "gutted" yards built Virginia Blocks I–III on cost and on schedule through the 2000s. The base built what it was given stable orders for. But it didn't get that from Bush admin. That's a demand-signal failure, not an irreversible corpse.

Then we can go to other historical examples. In 1940, Henry Kaiser had never built a ship in his life. Few years later, his yards were launching hulls in days. It's not physically impossible. Or look at South Korea. Two decades to go from pretty much nothing to being a strong shipbuilding nation after Hyundai's first yard in 1972. Again, sustained demand.

On your "wholly unrealistic" claim. Do you mean the Navy building and owning its own yards? Actual U.S. policy for 150 years? Four public naval shipyards exist right now. What you're calling unrealistic was simply a policy choice.

You're right that a $1 trillion check by itself wouldn't have changed things. But that was never my argument. The argument is that Reagan years style sustained demand with multi-year contracts, stable designs, and stable orders; things that a welder can build a stable career around. That was available in 2002. But Bush sent it to Iraq.
 
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Got it. "The die was long cast," so Iraq is acquitted on shipbuilding.

You say it takes decades. Well, 2002 + decades = today! That's not an argument that 2002 was too late, it proves how costly the 2000s were to the future (now!). The lead time you're citing is exactly why 2002 was the moment and Bush blew it like he blew lines of cocaine in his youth.

On Napoleon: post-Trafalgar France could and did build hulls, they had a big fleet on paper. What he couldn't buy was crews, because the blockade denied his sailors sea time. Industrial capacity recovered but human expertise couldn't. Your analogy says the recoverable case is the one where the skilled nucleus survives. But that's exactly what the 1990s actually preserved. Seawolf-3 and the Virginia program existed explicitly to keep Electric Boat's nuclear workforce alive and practicing. America in 2001 had the one asset Napoleon lacked, and lacked only what Napoleon had: volume orders.

We don't need hypotheticals to know the base could still execute and likely ramp up. Literally, the same "gutted" yards built Virginia Blocks I–III on cost and on schedule through the 2000s. The base built what it was given stable orders for. But it didn't get that from Bush admin. That's a demand-signal failure, not an irreversible corpse.

Then we can go to other historical examples. In 1940, Henry Kaiser had never built a ship in his life. Few years later, his yards were launching hulls in days. It's not physically impossible. Or look at South Korea. Two decades to go from pretty much nothing to being a strong shipbuilding nation after Hyundai's first yard in 1972

On your "wholly unrealistic" claim. Do you mean the Navy building and owning its own yards? Which was U.S. policy for 150 years? Four public naval shipyards exist right now. What you're calling unrealistic was simply a policy choice.

You're right that a $1 trillion check by itself wouldn't have changed things. But that was never my argument. The argument is that Reagan years style sustained demand with multi-year contracts, stable designs, and stable orders; things that a welder can build a stable career around. That was available in 2002. But Bush sent it to Iraq.

So, if in your hypothetic example would be that in 2002 George Bush decided to reinvest in multi-year ship buys, gut the Jones act, re-open the 17 public yards the US Navy had in the 80's, kept the same investment levels up as it would have done in the Iraq war AND made long term guarantees of the sustainability of USN orders, then yes, navy shipbuilding could, on paper, be saved.

This doesn't take into consideration the fact that what died alongside the production capacity, was the institutional experience around shipbuilding design itself. This doesn't just apply to the contractors, but to the Naval Design board. Almost everything right now is still a fragment of what remains from the institutional knowledge left over from the cold war. They cannot design a new ship to save their life. The only successful capital ship the US have designed in the past 30 years has been Arleigh Burke Flight III, and that's because its just an iteration and re-design of a Cold war destroyer.

Large Surface combatant failed, never made it to even building phase. Constellation failed. Littoral Combat Ship failed. Zumwalt failed. DDG(X) is failing. Ford still cannot get its Electro-catapults fully working. I guess USS America Class is alright and San Antonio is *okay*.

Then you have the hiring problem. Naval shipbuilders even today, with such few orders and demand, are struggling to find the workers who are there. Shipbuilding is no longer considered a safe job, its not attractive. It's not like the US has a large civilian shipbuilding industry to fall back upon either to draft from. This is going to be the biggest challenge to overcome actually. That was what I was alluding to with the Napoleonic reference. Yes, their sailors couldn't get out of port. And yes, they did build lots of capital ships (bit hard not to when you literally own every port in Western Europe outside of the UK).

No what they were really bad at was ship design. Ships built after 1805 were awful, incoherent, inconsistent, low quality messes of hulls that make absolutely no sense. The ships built prior to that were actually fantastic. Why? Because the French navy had amazing ship designers, almost on par with the British if not better in some aspects. What happened? Well most of them got executed/exiled/purged to nothingness. The naval leaders were seen as the aristocracy which the French revolution absolutely gutted. Once the pre coalition war ships began to dry up, at Trafalgar, Nile and other battles, the new ship quality was god awful. Despite huge sums of investment being poured into it.

Virginia builds are not a good example, the volume's are very low. China produces more in a year than US did in 5-7. It cannot scale beyond that due to the above constraints. It averages at just about 1 a year. Seawolf got cancelled.

WWII is not a good example and it's also irrelevant. The bottleneck for Ships nowadays is not hulls, but sensor modules, components and integration. If the US navy said tomorrow, "Build 100 Destroyer steel hulls." It could do it in a year. That's not the issue. The issue is the specialist equipment for High tech electronics embedding, naval electricians, propulsion experts, etc. Building hulls is easy. Putting military equipment, electronics, radars, sensors, weapons, etc is not. That wasn't the problem in WWII. You don't have advanced electronics onboard ships.

None of the Four existing shipyards actually make ships. They are highly specialized, highly specific, shipyards used to maintain warships and do refits and refurbs. They are not suitable for the fabrication of new ships. Even the peak of the Cold War, US Navy stopped building its own ships long ago. The last ship to be built by the US navy themselves was in 1970. It won't happen due to the US economic structure. The US Navy no longer knows how to build its own ships, how to get a tender for itself going, doesn't have the IP, the technology, the know-how or the operational skill. That died long ago. All that sits with a dwindling number of private contractors.
 
So aside from ship building in the 19th century, is the US running out of missiles to attack Iran with or not?
 
It's all so clear I can't believe we're actually debating whether military companies have more profits during wars.

https://www.ft.com/content/bd7626de-c367-4e64-ab94-e84c2d10d87f?syn-25a6b1a6=1

Basically, if a war indicates there's going to be prolonged increase in defence spending then the stock price goes up, or at least tends to outperform the rest of the economy. What you really want is a good old multi-year war or at least one that creates lasting instability in a region that you can then sell arms to. Invading Grenada for a week's not going to cut it.
 
Basically, if a war indicates there's going to be prolonged increase in defence spending then the stock price goes up, or at least tends to outperform the rest of the economy. What you really want is a good old multi-year war or at least one that creates lasting instability in a region that you can then sell arms to. Invading Grenada for a week's not going to cut it.
You need to factor in the sheer incompetence of the warring parties :D
 
If, by some magic, all wars stopped today and never resumed, would the arms-producing companies still make a profit?
 
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You have missed the point.

Arms production feeds on war, whether an actual war or the threat of the next one.

You would need to first resolve the nature of why humans come into conflict and the security dilemmas that emerge from the way humans have ordered their social structures (nation states). If you could get beyond that point, then what you're describing could conceivably work - but as I often say, we live in an anarchic international system where states are incentivized to pursue their own interests, which is the fundamental source of the problem. Until that is fundamentally resolved, war will continue to be the ultimate arbiter of human conflict.
 
You would need to resolve the nature of why humans come into conflict and the security dilemmas that emerge from the way humans have ordered their social structures (nation states). If you could get beyond that point, then what you're describing could conceivably work - but as I often say, we live in an anarchic international system where states are incentivized to pursue their own interests, which is the fundamental source of the problem. Until that is fundamentally resolved, war will continue to be the ultimate arbiter of human conflict.
We need to progress spiritually instead of just technologically. The outcome of our current trajectory is likely an apocalypse.

Doesn’t matter how we are organized if enough people think voting for Trump or Reform is a great idea.
 
We need to progress spiritually instead of just technologically. The outcome of our current trajectory is likely an apocalypse.

Doesn’t matter how we are organized if enough people think voting for Trump or Reform is a great idea.

Voting for such candidates is another symptom of the current system in decline and there's likely no going back now that we're in the information age.
 
So, if in your hypothetic example would be that in 2002 George Bush decided to reinvest in multi-year ship buys, gut the Jones act, re-open the 17 public yards the US Navy had in the 80's, kept the same investment levels up as it would have done in the Iraq war AND made long term guarantees of the sustainability of USN orders, then yes, navy shipbuilding could, on paper, be saved.

This doesn't take into consideration the fact that what died alongside the production capacity, was the institutional experience around shipbuilding design itself. This doesn't just apply to the contractors, but to the Naval Design board. Almost everything right now is still a fragment of what remains from the institutional knowledge left over from the cold war. They cannot design a new ship to save their life. The only successful capital ship the US have designed in the past 30 years has been Arleigh Burke Flight III, and that's because its just an iteration and re-design of a Cold war destroyer.

Large Surface combatant failed, never made it to even building phase. Constellation failed. Littoral Combat Ship failed. Zumwalt failed. DDG(X) is failing. Ford still cannot get its Electro-catapults fully working. I guess USS America Class is alright and San Antonio is *okay*.

Then you have the hiring problem. Naval shipbuilders even today, with such few orders and demand, are struggling to find the workers who are there. Shipbuilding is no longer considered a safe job, its not attractive. It's not like the US has a large civilian shipbuilding industry to fall back upon either to draft from. This is going to be the biggest challenge to overcome actually. That was what I was alluding to with the Napoleonic reference. Yes, their sailors couldn't get out of port. And yes, they did build lots of capital ships (bit hard not to when you literally own every port in Western Europe outside of the UK).

No what they were really bad at was ship design. Ships built after 1805 were awful, incoherent, inconsistent, low quality messes of hulls that make absolutely no sense. The ships built prior to that were actually fantastic. Why? Because the French navy had amazing ship designers, almost on par with the British if not better in some aspects. What happened? Well most of them got executed/exiled/purged to nothingness. The naval leaders were seen as the aristocracy which the French revolution absolutely gutted. Once the pre coalition war ships began to dry up, at Trafalgar, Nile and other battles, the new ship quality was god awful. Despite huge sums of investment being poured into it.

Virginia builds are not a good example, the volume's are very low. China produces more in a year than US did in 5-7. It cannot scale beyond that due to the above constraints. It averages at just about 1 a year. Seawolf got cancelled.

WWII is not a good example and it's also irrelevant. The bottleneck for Ships nowadays is not hulls, but sensor modules, components and integration. If the US navy said tomorrow, "Build 100 Destroyer steel hulls." It could do it in a year. That's not the issue. The issue is the specialist equipment for High tech electronics embedding, naval electricians, propulsion experts, etc. Building hulls is easy. Putting military equipment, electronics, radars, sensors, weapons, etc is not. That wasn't the problem in WWII. You don't have advanced electronics onboard ships.

None of the Four existing shipyards actually make ships. They are highly specialized, highly specific, shipyards used to maintain warships and do refits and refurbs. They are not suitable for the fabrication of new ships. Even the peak of the Cold War, US Navy stopped building its own ships long ago. The last ship to be built by the US navy themselves was in 1970. It won't happen due to the US economic structure. The US Navy no longer knows how to build its own ships, how to get a tender for itself going, doesn't have the IP, the technology, the know-how or the operational skill. That died long ago. All that sits with a dwindling number of private contractors.


Your first paragraph is your concession. You've conceded it was not impossible but that sustained demand signals + 20+ years would have completely rebuilt the naval pipeline.

Most of your points just reinforce the opportunity cost of the Iraq War. Remember I was the one calling it a push (IE both Clinton and Bush policies did damage). You were the one that tried to completely exonerate Bush, claim it was all Clinton's fault and argued that the nothing that could have happened in the last 26 years matters.

Some factual errors. There were not 17 public yards in the 1980s, there were 8 ((Portsmouth, Philly, Norfolk, Charleston, Long Beach, Mare Island, Puget Sound, Pearl Harbor). Also the Jones Act doesn't govern warships. Jones Act is commercial. Byrnes-Tollefson governs warships. And your unrealistic scenario is actually happening right now with Hanwha buying the Philly yard and expanding it. So this just shows, again, the opportunity cost of Bush's decisions to focus on Iraq.

On the design part. When and why did it die? Because 2002 restart + sustained demand + 20+ years = rebuilt design corps operating at full capacity in the early 2020s. Again you are stating the opportunity cost of Bush's Iraq decision.

On Napoleon: the purges hit the officer core not the constructors. Jacques-Noël Sané worked continuously during this time and the Royal Navy even copied his designs.

Virginia isn't proof of scale so your point here isn't relevant. Virginia is proof the nucleus survived the 90s. It explicitly shows your "50 years of expertise down the drain" is hyperbole not a data based assessment. If "hulls are easy" and it's the integration where the bottleneck happens, then that gap was preserved. You essentially state this, "long term guarantees of USN orders" is the solution.

So we are at a point of agreement here. Sustained demand, multi-year buys + sustained investment + credible guarantees + design restart and workforce = rebuilt capacity by the 2020s. The opportunity cost of the Iraq War.
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Which is relevant to the Iran War economically because the same arguments are going to be made by right wingers in 10 years, that nothing Trump does now could possibly have hurt the US when in fact, the Iran War is another opportunity cost.
 
I'm talking about the really premature, in-hindsight ridiculous decision in the 90's, starting in 1993 with the Last supper. Culture wars had nothing to do with this.

Gathering every single defense contractor, giving them dinner at the white house, and then outright telling them that you're all fecked, you're all going out of business, and that Defense is no longer being funded, will be looked back upon as one of the most catastrophic geopolitical mistakes of all time.

Even before this current debacle, things like not counter-acting China's moves in the Pacific, not re-arming when China was arming itself to the teeth, and then letting China do whatever the hell it wanted in SEA and SCS is just the icing on the cake.

Yep, and I’d argue this is precisely when the rot really set in and the looting of the empire began.

Clinton gets the defense contractors in a room, effectively tells them to merge or die, Wall Street gets a lovely new oligopoly to feast on, and everyone congratulates themselves on the “peace dividend” while the actual industrial base is slowly hollowed out. Then, having eliminated most of the competition, the surviving contractors get the Pentagon as a captive customer: fewer bidders, fatter margins and endless markups. Some free market

Meanwhile America is so drunk on unipolar supremacy that it convinces itself it can offshore production, financialize everything, run down capacity and still dictate terms indefinitely. We spent the 90s liquidating the inheritance and calling it victory

ANd becasue the surviving contractors could charge the Pentagon a fortune, we eventually started confusing defense spending with defense capability. Huge budgets, huge procurement costs, but steadily shrinking capacity. This is now the logical conclusion i.e. we get to fight 21st-century wars with exquisitely expensive 20th-century systems.

Bravo.
 
Yep, and I’d argue this is precisely when the rot really set in and the looting of the empire began.

Clinton gets the defense contractors in a room, effectively tells them to merge or die, Wall Street gets a lovely new oligopoly to feast on, and everyone congratulates themselves on the “peace dividend” while the actual industrial base is slowly hollowed out. Then, having eliminated most of the competition, the surviving contractors get the Pentagon as a captive customer: fewer bidders, fatter margins and endless markups. Some free market

Meanwhile America is so drunk on unipolar supremacy that it convinces itself it can offshore production, financialize everything, run down capacity and still dictate terms indefinitely. We spent the 90s liquidating the inheritance and calling it victory

ANd becasue the surviving contractors could charge the Pentagon a fortune, we eventually started confusing defense spending with defense capability. Huge budgets, huge procurement costs, but steadily shrinking capacity. This is now the logical conclusion i.e. we get to fight 21st-century wars with exquisitely expensive 20th-century systems.

Bravo.

I'd add that budgetary restrictions on the DoD itself is partly to blame for that.

"You need to do more, with far less." was the motto of the 90's and 00's. Less manpower, less money, less platforms, less available assets.

So what's the natural solution to try and solve this? You have to build extremely high tech, expensive, weapons platforms that are extremely complicated to procure.

Constellation class is the biggest example. Ideally, USN needs 50-70 frigates. But it cannot afford that. So it now needs 25 frigates to do the job of 70. So you add ridiculous features into the Constellation to try and surmount that gap. What you end up with is an absolute mess.

Look at Chinese ship designs. 54A isn't anything special. 52D isn't an incredibly advanced ship either. But what they do have is a sleek, well drilled down, streamlined design that covers about 80% of the top baseline quality. And then you just build lots of them.

Meanwhile USN is busy in the same time period trying to shoehorn in Stealth Destroyers with Railgun cannons attached to them and hidden, cold launch VLS tubes built into the hull (Zumwalt).
 
I am going to park the China discussion for now. I don't have the time to do both debates justice and I am choosing to discuss the Clinton vs Bush years regarding the future of the military as I find that a more interesting topic at the moment. Feel free to tag me in the China thread in a month or two and as time allows we can continue that.

The first thing is we have to acknowledge the difference between a good decision given imperfect information vs. hindsight. To use a poker analogy, if someone raises when they have a hand that beats every possible hand an opponent could have, except if the opponent gets a single card on the river then that is a sensible, logical and smart bet. If the opponent calls, or even counter-raises, and then draws the single card on the river that allows them to win, that result doesn't mean the first player made a bad decision. The first player still made a perfectly rational decision based on the information they had available to them at the time. This happens a lot in poker and bad players always think things like "oh I shouldn't have raised". With imperfect information, you have to play the probability and if the 1% or 5% hits, that's the breaks (as Kurtis Blow says).

Clinton's decision to draw down the military during his terms was perfectly logical given the information available at the time - the Cold War was over, there was no more major enemy. Fukuyama got famous for his End of History thesis in 92 touting that liberal democracy had won. All the conservatives thought Milton Friedman advice on the former Soviet Union was going to work spectacularly. Etc, etc. Drawing down the military was sensible given all the information available in 1992-93. In fact, it was Cheney under Bush I that first argued this.

Now, for "flat" I just looked at the budget in 1992 (~298b) vs the budget in 2000 (~294b) but as percent of GDP, you are correct that it was a reduction YoY (4.7% in 92 decreasing YoY to 2.9% in 2000) throughout his term so I'll correct my quick take there. You are right, it was a decrease YoY as percent of GDP.

But going back to the first point, there weren't really any reasons during the 1990s to think that wasn't the right thing to do as it contributed to budget surpluses that were universally hailed in econ circles c.2000. The 90s were a very optimistic decade. A lot of us in our 20s thought that it would be the first decade in a very different world than the entire Cold War. It looked like the world would simply become more prosperous for everyone. Then 9/11 happened.

Now, let's look at Bush and the Iraq disaster. The Iraq war directly cost ~$1 trillion. If you add up all the cascading costs, estimates are usually around the ~$2-2.2 trillion range. Those numbers are staggering. The opportunity cost is insane, no matter what your political views. Progressive can easily point to how that $2 trillion could have better benefited the people directly through health care and social services. Even military hawks, like the veterans I know, look at the huge opportunity cost of the Iraq war. Crusader's cancellation was a frequent mention with some people I know and a lot of people knew the Iraq War would eat hundreds of billions more than Bush admin estimated at the start and it would hurt preparedness long term, which it did (see James Fallow's Bush's Lost Year article from 2004 or Nordhaus' analysis in 2002 that projected a $1.9 trillion cost, to see how many military and former military knew how stupid Iraq was going to be). By Bush, it was not even close to "too late" and the Reagan years prove that it wasn't.

For shipbuilding I'd rate it as a push. From an economic point of view, Clinton's budgets hurt for sure. But I don't think that was as obvious in the 1990s, whereas the opportunity cost of Bush's Iraq debacle was more obvious. you can blame them both for the shipbuilding. Without Iraq, Bush Admin could have efficiently simply reversed the Clinton era shipbuilding decision but it didn't because Iraq. And again, it wasn't as obvious in the 1990s that that would even matter. No one argued in 1994 that the US military needed shipbuilding at the same rate as during the Cold War which was the information everyone was working with in 92-94. Perot had he gotten elected, with his isolationist bent, would likely have done exactly what Clinton did with military budgets.

I think the poker analogy actually helps Alfonso's point.

The issue wasn't that Clinton took a peace dividend, that was perfectly rational. The problem was how the drawdown was implemented: by not by just cutting spending, but by encouraging/forcing a consolidation that permanently hollowed out the industrial base on the assumption that the capacity being destroyed would never again be strategically necessary.

This is not hindsight invented after 9/11. The last supper was explicitly about telling industry that there too many contractors and consolidation was expected. THe Pentagon itslef acknowledged that the sector went from 51 defense primes to 5, leaving DoD increasingly captive to a very small number of suppliers.

And shipbuilding is the clearest illustration. In the 90's the Navy bought 71 ships vs 137 the previous decade whilst the budget and with it yards, suppliers, skilled labor and production capacity shrank accordingly.

And saying "Bush could have reversed it" is exactly the problem. Budgets are reversible. Industrial capacity is not. Appropriating another $50 billion is basically a database entry! You can do it in an afternoon. What you can not do in an afternoon is recreate a shipyard, a missile production line, a supplier network and decades of accumulated human capital.

Obviously Afghanistan and Iraq were atrocious wastes of American power, money and lives. But that's a different category mistake. Dubya squandered resources. Clinton's restructuring helped destroy the machinery needed to turn resources into military capability.
 


Send in the clown Scott Bessent to tell us for the 5th time this week that there is a good chance Hormuz will be open "today or tomorrow". Make no mistake this is what America losing looks like. It would almost be worthy of pity, if the admin wasn't mostly sex offenders.
 


Send in the clown Scott Bessent to tell us for the 5th time this week that there is a good chance Hormuz will be open "today or tomorrow". Make no mistake this is what America losing looks like. It would almost be worthy of pity, if the admin wasn't mostly sex offenders.



That’s the tell. Bessent is the one giving the Hormuz updates. Not Pete, not even Marco.

Why is the Treasqury Sec giving Hormuz updates? Because this has stopped being solely a military problem and has become a financing problem. Foreign Treasury holders are watching energy markets seize up, struggling with access to fuel, and increasingly asking why they should keep recycling dollars back into U.S. debt.

Meanwhile Trump admin's draining the SPR into the crisis when strategically we ought to be rebuilding it.

That tells you everything about how badly the sequencing has gone.