The ugly face of racism in English football

Cascarino

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Is there a more socially progressive nation in the world when it comes to racial diversity? I'm honestly interested to know.

I think the UK is clearly ahead of France and Germany. Probably about even with The Netherlands.

The societal divisions are much less ingrained that the US. Canada seems to be doing quite well, though. The less said about Australia, the better. So, too, Israel.

I honestly don't know how things are in Latin America, but the snippets of news I hear aren't universally positive. Nations like India and China have their own well-documented issues. Most other places are mono-racial.

English football was very good at silencing the 5% of full-on, inveterate racists that went to Premier League matches (number plucked out of thin air - I'm just going by the proportion I'd actively try to avoid just in case). The last 5 years have seen them emboldened to be vocal again. Hopefully the next 5 years can see them shut up or maybe even shrink in number.
What do you mean by the bolded?
 

Foxbatt

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Neville did say that he is ashamed that he did not do anything when his teammates were getting racially abused. That says a lot more about him than the idiotic anchor who wants to have a balanced view on the other side. Is there another side to racism? Racism is racism. Racial abuse is racial abuse.
 

Marooned

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It's much more subtle, but I've noticed that the term 'donkey' and 'brainless' are used almost exclusively to refer to black players on this forum.
Even in our non-western countries it is extremely common to insult each other by calling 'donkey', we people of color (meh as internet calls us these days) in our own countries use that A LOT. I don't believe this case has anything to do with racism, its more about politeness and good luck with having that. Actually not calling someone 'donkey' because they have different skin color is a bit discriminatory since you categorize and behave someone with different color differently hehe. :D
 

Fingeredmouse

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Racism by definition is the believe that one race is superior than another race. To abuse someone for their colour is prejudice. Gary Neville should get off his high horse before someone posts a picture of him wearing the ‘I hate Scousers’ T-shirt. To go on about the politicians creating the problems is a joke. The issues are caused by society not accepting the multi-cultural make up of our country today. The SNP are racist, they hate the English. When I was young, abuse of anyone different whether it was colour or appearance was rife, normal even. There were TV shows that frequently used the ‘N’ word even on the BBC. I don’t like the abuse that is hurled out to opposing players regardless of colour but all fans do it. They feel empowered as they are with 1000’s of others but would do it face to face. I don’t know the answer in sport or society. Some people will get banned from stadiums but will still shout abuse in the pub so just moving the problem on and out of the way. If the PL/FA allow players to walk off, that will make it worse. Imagine United are beating Celtic in the second leg of the Europa league with ten minutes to go and the Celtic fans started on Fred or Pogba. They could get the players off and have a replay unless they state the score when they leave stands. Then that could cause problems too. As I say, I don’t have an answer to it, there may not be an answer, but Gary Neville needs to look at his past actions.
Whilst I agree with your general point about any level of abuse and tribalism not being a good thing, comparing the wearing of an "I hate Scousers" t shirt is not meaningfully comparable to society's racism issues, it is clear that successful political movements of the last of the last half decade have fuelled racism and nationalism and the SNP are clearly not racist.
 

Cascarino

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Is there a more socially progressive nation in the world when it comes to racial diversity? I'm honestly interested to know.

I think the UK is clearly ahead of France and Germany. Probably about even with The Netherlands.

The societal divisions are much less ingrained that the US. Canada seems to be doing quite well, though. The less said about Australia, the better. So, too, Israel.

I honestly don't know how things are in Latin America, but the snippets of news I hear aren't universally positive. Nations like India and China have their own well-documented issues. Most other places are mono-racial.

English football was very good at silencing the 5% of full-on, inveterate racists that went to Premier League matches (number plucked out of thin air - I'm just going by the proportion I'd actively try to avoid just in case). The last 5 years have seen them emboldened to be vocal again. Hopefully the next 5 years can see them shut up or maybe even shrink in number.
I still don’t understand what you mean by your first paragraph. Are you trying to say England is the least racist country in the world?
 

DavidDeSchmikes

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Tottenham Hotspur said:
The Club and the Metropolitan Police have now exhausted all avenues of investigation following the reported incident at our home fixture against Chelsea on 22 December.
We carried out extensive reviews of CCTV images and footage, working with professional lip readers. All materials and reports have now also been reviewed by the police who have carried out their own investigation.
The police have notified us today that, having reviewed and investigated, they have closed the crime report as they can find no evidence to support the allegation of racial abuse.
We fully support Antonio Rudiger with the action that he took - however there is no evidence to corroborate or contradict the allegation and as such neither ourselves nor the police are in a position to take any further action.
We are fiercely proud of our anti-racism work and our zero tolerance of any form of discrimination. This is one reason why we have attributed so much time and resource to investigating this matter. Had we identified anyone guilty of this we were intent on issuing them with a lifetime ban from our stadium as they would have no place among our proud, diverse fan base.
If any new information comes to light, this will be fully investigated.
 

noodlehair

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Fair enough. Very much doubt he just made it up though. Not that they're saying he did but the BBC headline seems to needlessly infer they are.
 

Rafaeldagold

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Maybe he misheard. Who knows but Spurs name has been dragged through the mud over this & the media & G Neville went OTT during the game when actually it transpires nothing racist was said
 

Ludens the Red

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Maybe he misheard. Who knows but Spurs name has been dragged through the mud over this & the media & G Neville went OTT during the game when actually it transpires nothing racist was said
What? How was spurs’ name dragged through the mud? People aren’t stupid. People are well aware one Spurs fan doesn’t speak for the masses.
And that doesn’t prove nothing racist was said. It just means there isn’t any conclusive evidence to say there was, that’s how the justice system works. If there’s no audio/cctv and nobody comes forward the police/cps don’t charge.
Also I’d go as far as saying that the wording used by Spurs in relation to police findings is not what would be used by the metropolitan police and is a bit naughty by the club. “They can find no evidence of racial abuse”. Met police would never use that wording because of its implications. The crime would be closed under insufficient evidence to proceed and that’s it.
 

Rafaeldagold

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What? How was spurs’ name dragged through the mud? People aren’t stupid. People are well aware one Spurs fan doesn’t speak for the masses.
And that doesn’t prove nothing racist was said. It just means there isn’t any conclusive evidence to say there was, that’s how the justice system works. If there’s no audio/cctv and nobody comes forward the police/cps don’t charge.
Also I’d go as far as saying that the wording used by Spurs in relation to police findings is not what would be used by the metropolitan police and is a bit naughty by the club. “They can find no evidence of racial abuse”. Met police would never use that wording because of its implications. The crime would be closed under insufficient evidence to proceed and that’s it.
It’s an unfortunate incident all round & maybe Rudiger misheard probably but they brought in lip readers and all sorts of technology to see but nothing.

All I’m saying is I watched that game live and half of it was spent saying how racism is becoming more relevant, how shameful it was ,3 announcements over the tannoy yet it transpires nothing happened.

Like I say unfortunate incident but I feel the media went way ott before anything could be proven. In the City game it was obvious there was a racist cretin so by all means go all in then, but on this occasion it was very ott
 

Ludens the Red

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It’s an unfortunate incident all round & maybe Rudiger misheard probably but they brought in lip readers and all sorts of technology to see but nothing.

All I’m saying is I watched that game live and half of it was spent saying how racism is becoming more relevant, how shameful it was ,3 announcements over the tannoy yet it transpires nothing happened.

Like I say unfortunate incident but I feel the media went way ott before anything could be proven. In the City game it was obvious there was a racist cretin so by all means go all in then, but on this occasion it was very ott
I don’t see the problem with warning people about it over the tannoy to be honest. The overall reaction was also taking into account other incidents, IT IS a problem, just because on this occasion there’s not been evidence to support it doesn’t stop it being one. I also watched the game and do not recall half the game being about racism ‘becoming relevant’. Strange wording you’re using there btw.
You also keep saying nothing happened but you don’t know this. Do you know how many crimes get closed because there’s insufficient evidence? Thousands upon thousands on a daily basis. Doesn’t mean it didn’t happen.
 

sullydnl

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Maybe he misheard. Who knows but Spurs name has been dragged through the mud over this & the media & G Neville went OTT during the game when actually it transpires nothing racist was said
"We can't find evidence to prove something happened" isn't the same as "nothing happened". It hasn't transpired that nothing racist was said.
 

Prometheus

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The second half of this decade will be remembered as the period when racism became mainstream in all Western societies. In my opinion, dissatisfaction with unfair distribution of income and wealth countered by populist politics is to blame. It is the working class in European countries that is left behind and dissatisfied most (google "elephant chart" for reference). As the same working class is overrepresented in football stadia we should not be surprised about the resurgence of racism there. Populist politicians put fuel to the fire and Brexit England is the prime example for this development that can be seen literally everywhere. Sad times.
I'm not sold on that explanation. Why would the dissatisfaction and anger be so misplaced as to turn into racism (e.g. against black people)?
 

africanspur

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Fair enough. Very much doubt he just made it up though. Not that they're saying he did but the BBC headline seems to needlessly infer they are.
I don't think he made it up for a second. I think he thought he heard racist abuse.

I did find it strange though that in the age of smart phones, TV cameras everywhere and in a new stadium where CCTV is almost ubiquitous, nothing was found whatsoever. Nor did any of the other players hear anything (and I have friends who sit near where the incident was supposed to happen).

I think the situation was heated after the Son sending off. He was unsurprisingly getting a lot of boos and I'm sure, in the heat of the moment, pumped up, misheard it as something else.
 

africanspur

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I don’t see the problem with warning people about it over the tannoy to be honest. The overall reaction was also taking into account other incidents, IT IS a problem, just because on this occasion there’s not been evidence to support it doesn’t stop it being one. I also watched the game and do not recall half the game being about racism ‘becoming relevant’. Strange wording you’re using there btw.
You also keep saying nothing happened but you don’t know this. Do you know how many crimes get closed because there’s insufficient evidence? Thousands upon thousands on a daily basis. Doesn’t mean it didn’t happen.
I mean, this is something totally different thought right?

If I'm pickpocketed on the street or someone assaults me in my own home or someone is raped in a club toilet.....those crimes may not be solved because there aren't witnesses or vide evidence of things happening.

We're talking about one of the biggest games of the season, with TV cameras everywhere, CCTV cameras everywhere from the club and 62,000 witnesses. Amongst all those fans, amongst all the smartphones they hold, amongst all the TV cameras, amongst all the CCTV, amongst the other 21 players on the pitch, the benches....and Rudiger was the only one to hear anything? We even employed lip readers to go through the footage.

Again, I'm not saying he made it up, I'm sure he thinks he heard it, and in that case, I fully support him going over to the ref and the ref telling the announcers to make a statement. It is better to be safe for sure.

But this isn't a small crime on the street, it is a hugely watched event so I don't understand how it would have been missed, especially if, as some media outlets were falling over themselves to say after the event, it was whole sections of the crowd, rather than even 1 or 2 people.

And of course the reaction ended up being OTT, in hindsight. The commentary did shift to racism. Neville talked about it after. Downing street got involved. I know what I read at the time but even the quickest search is bringing up articles like this:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...e-as-antonio-ruediger-reports-abuse-j7cgs3qp8
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/50887592
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/f...-Rudiger-did-Reality-victims-ending-dock.html

So a lot of the focus after the game became about that, rather than the absolutely shocking performance we put in or the very good one Chelsea did. IN a way, the damage is already done. Again, I do not blame Rudiger for this at all but the media, which I mentioned at the time of the incident.
 

Inigo Montoya

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I don't think he made it up for a second. I think he thought he heard racist abuse.

I did find it strange though that in the age of smart phones, TV cameras everywhere and in a new stadium where CCTV is almost ubiquitous, nothing was found whatsoever. Nor did any of the other players hear anything (and I have friends who sit near where the incident was supposed to happen).

I think the situation was heated after the Son sending off. He was unsurprisingly getting a lot of boos and I'm sure, in the heat of the moment, pumped up, misheard it as something else.
Or maybe he was correct in what he heard and no other supporter wants to grass on another, who knows. A friend of mine was in the Shed end at Chelsea when Avram was manager and some of the so called fans were giving him vile Anti-Semitic abuse. My friend complained to no avail. No other fans wanted to get involved.

It’s a sad state of affairs all round.
 

africanspur

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Or maybe he was correct in what he heard and no other supporter wants to grass on another, who knows. A friend of mine was in the Shed end at Chelsea when Avram was manager and some of the so called fans were giving him vile Anti-Semitic abuse. My friend complained to no avail. No other fans wanted to get involved.

It’s a sad state of affairs all round.
I would accept that if we were in the 50s. But we're in 2020, with TV cameras and CCTV pretty much covering every inch of the new ground now.

Even if the fans are dicks and don't want to say anything about fellow fans, I'd have expected something to come up from one of the cameras.
 

Inigo Montoya

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I would accept that if we were in the 50s. But we're in 2020, with TV cameras and CCTV pretty much covering every inch of the new ground now.

Even if the fans are dicks and don't want to say anything about fellow fans, I'd have expected something to come up from one of the cameras.
Or maybe we think that nothing can be missed in this day and age when there’s enough evidence to show that things can.
 

africanspur

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Or maybe we think that nothing can be missed in this day and age when there’s enough evidence to show that things can.
Fair enough, I'm not sure I would personally agree. I can't think of many racist incidents recently where literally no evidence has been found at all. Either someone (or some people) visibly or audibly chanting or mimicking certain horrible actions or words, throwing certain things etc. And certainly not in new stadiums where CCTV is pretty ubiquitous.

And I'm not even doing this on a partisan basis either, there will clearly be racists in Spurs' fanbase just as there is in any fanbase (ie Aubameyang incident, the vile Adebayor chants etc etc).
 

Classical Mechanic

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There's obviously a chance that he misheard because he's in a stadium with 60k people in it, most of them shouting and screaming different things at the same time.
 

Rood

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was there ever any outcome to the investigation on the bloke who was arrested after the last Manc derby?
 

noodlehair

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I don't think he made it up for a second. I think he thought he heard racist abuse.

I did find it strange though that in the age of smart phones, TV cameras everywhere and in a new stadium where CCTV is almost ubiquitous, nothing was found whatsoever. Nor did any of the other players hear anything (and I have friends who sit near where the incident was supposed to happen).

I think the situation was heated after the Son sending off. He was unsurprisingly getting a lot of boos and I'm sure, in the heat of the moment, pumped up, misheard it as something else.
Possible. Also very possible that someone did a monkey chant or something similar and it simply isn't possible to prove or locate from the footage.

It's easier for me to believe there would be 1 idiot in a crowd of thousands of people than to believe someone would imagine they heard something.

Either way if the club's done all it can you can't ask or expect them to do anything else.
 

awop

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Haven't parsed through it all but was it something he heard ? Didn't he mimic "monkey gestures" to the ref ?
 

do.ob

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I read from various people on Twitter that Spurs fans have a chant that could be interpreted as monkey chants, maybe he really misheard? In any case I think it's wrong to attack him now, it creates an atmosphere that discourages players from coming forward.
 

Inigo Montoya

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I read from various people on Twitter that Spurs fans have a chant that could be interpreted as monkey chants, maybe he really misheard? In any case I think it's wrong to attack him now, it creates an atmosphere that discourages players from coming forward.
What chant is that then?
 

noodlehair

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Maybe he misheard. Who knows but Spurs name has been dragged through the mud over this & the media & G Neville went OTT during the game when actually it transpires nothing racist was said
Neville does that with everything to be fair. He gets a bee in his bonnet about something then just turns into a massive drama queen.

There were multiple announcements during the game and the incident was investigated, and at worst was one or two idiots.

I don't think any reasonable person would use it as a stick to beat Tottenham with. It was more used to further highlight the problem in general which I think is actually a good thing.

Just a shame the media are such hypocrits about it.
 

Hammondo

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It's much more subtle, but I've noticed that the term 'donkey' and 'brainless' are used almost exclusively to refer to black players on this forum.
Bollocks, Maguire has been called donkey many times (by me).
 

WakeAndBeek

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As an asian living in Leicester, I used to go to their games when I could in their championship days and without fail when teams like Millwall and Leeds scum came to town, it would be “your just a town full of p*kis”, was fun looking over and without fail those singing were fat, bald and ugly:D when there’s nothing going for you in life, what can you do? blame immigrants of course.

Racism is very prevalent in English football, just better hidden and more online than other counties, especially against Muslims I would say rather than blacks.
 

DoomSlayer

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Innocent until proven guilty has totally been forgotten in the social media age. Though I guess some people's political views are that punishing a few innocents is okay for the greater good.
 

Cascarino

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Innocent until proven guilty has totally been forgotten in the social media age. Though I guess some people's political views are that punishing a few innocents is okay for the greater good.
So who’s the innocent person who has been punished here?
 

DoomSlayer

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So who’s the innocent person who has been punished here?
My comment was about the perception in the social media of that concept, I made it because of the tweet from the BBC that there is no evidence of racist behaviour. I didn't say an innocent person was punished, I said that maybe some people would justify a judicial system that punishes innocents for some sort of social benefit.
 

Ludens the Red

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I mean, this is something totally different thought right?

If I'm pickpocketed on the street or someone assaults me in my own home or someone is raped in a club toilet.....those crimes may not be solved because there aren't witnesses or vide evidence of things happening.

We're talking about one of the biggest games of the season, with TV cameras everywhere, CCTV cameras everywhere from the club and 62,000 witnesses. Amongst all those fans, amongst all the smartphones they hold, amongst all the TV cameras, amongst all the CCTV, amongst the other 21 players on the pitch, the benches....and Rudiger was the only one to hear anything? We even employed lip readers to go through the footage.

Again, I'm not saying he made it up, I'm sure he thinks he heard it, and in that case, I fully support him going over to the ref and the ref telling the announcers to make a statement. It is better to be safe for sure.

But this isn't a small crime on the street, it is a hugely watched event so I don't understand how it would have been missed, especially if, as some media outlets were falling over themselves to say after the event, it was whole sections of the crowd, rather than even 1 or 2 people.

And of course the reaction ended up being OTT, in hindsight. The commentary did shift to racism. Neville talked about it after. Downing street got involved. I know what I read at the time but even the quickest search is bringing up articles like this:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...e-as-antonio-ruediger-reports-abuse-j7cgs3qp8
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/50887592
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/f...-Rudiger-did-Reality-victims-ending-dock.html

So a lot of the focus after the game became about that, rather than the absolutely shocking performance we put in or the very good one Chelsea did. IN a way, the damage is already done. Again, I do not blame Rudiger for this at all but the media, which I mentioned at the time of the incident.
It’s not really different... yeah you’ve picked examples where it can be different but people get abused, mugged and beaten in the middle of busy streets in London everyday with dozens of witnesses, phones and cctv cameras but still these crimes don’t get solved so yeah not really different.

I think you’re also massively overestimating the ability of Spurs’ CCTV cameras. From my experience of dealing with CCTV even at football grounds (Emirates) the idea to me that there are cameras capable of zooming in on the lips of every individual in a 62,000 seater stadium is laughable. And you’re taking about “62,000” witnesses, unless the ground went completely silent and everyone fixated on this one individual at this one moment, then stating it as 62,000 witnesses is again massively overstating.

Things can get missed even in these situations.
FOr what it’s worth I’m not trying to state it 100% happened but my issue tbh is the way Spurs have presented the findings of the investigation. The implication that it was some sort of top of the range Mi5 led investigation and this idea that they can see and hear everything from everyone, it’s a nonsense. And then on top of that, deliberately misquoting the Met and it’s findings. The whole statement presented to me as implying Rudiger was lying. That isn’t for Tottenham Hotspur football club to imply.

As for the last bit, like I said earlier the reaction wasn’t specifically because of the one incident it was because of everything that’s gone on this season. It wasn’t a case of Neville and Sky picking on Spurs or making a mountain out of a molehill.
I’m sure there are plenty of newspaper articles which spoke about the poor Spurs performance also, you just have to look for them like you can most things.
 
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horsechoker

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https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/51628153

Kiko Casilla: Leeds goalkeeper gets eight-match ban for racism

Leeds United goalkeeper Kiko Casilla has been banned for eight matches and fined £60,000 after being found guilty of racially abusing Charlton Athletic forward Jonathan Leko.

The 33-year-old, who denied the charge, has also been ordered to attend a face-to-face education session.

The incident took place in Charlton's win over the Whites on 28 September.