The UK is "different" to Europe...but is it "better"?

Classical Mechanic

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Just look at their current prime minister... that's a big support for the thesis.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...east-were-smarter-than-the-french-w86q5665ws3

Stole this answer from quora:

Why are Germans so incredibly intelligent? Not only are their IQ and test scores higher, but they just appear smarter than most other nationalities.

"First of all: I’m Swiss and know a bit more about the Swiss education system, but the German equivalent is similar, I could probably talk about the whole of Europe here.

I think the point is that Germany - along with most European states - of course hasn’t smarter people. It’s the education that forms them! It starts with the teachers, who need higher qualifications and schools which are controlled by the state. Remember that in Europe it’s simply not possibly to teach pseudo-scientific things like Intelligent Design in Biology. You could of course talk about it during Religion/Ethics-classes. But with such things the US are the exception. Things to expand your horizon are happening often, excursions to museums, theaters, concerts and so on. Music, Art, English, Sports, Biology, Physics, History and many more are a part of the curriculum, with the school often lasting until 5 PM (more Swiss, less German).

It continues with fewer students who are allowed to study at the universities, which means that the universities have usually higher scores. Since they are all run by the state and don’t cost anything/not much they are all on more or less on the same, high level.

On the other hand you’ve got apprenticeships for those that don’t qualify for universities, but even they have the chance to study with good grades in their specific field, e.q. a cook, who puts some effort into it, can later on study food technology. So you’ll very, very rarely meet unqualified people in jobs, there’s close to no one simply being a clerk or working at McDonald’s, who got into that job and stayed there.

Another thing is the general attitude towards science and education: You are somewhat expected to learn your whole life, advanced training is mandatory. You’re expected to be informed about what you’re talking, else you leave it to the professionals. The hostility towards clear facts in the US is really strange to us and rather connected with medieval times. Do you, Tyler, remember what I told you about the different types of feminism? That, to me, Americans seem to pick up random words and then oppose them, following some arguments they might have heard somewhere? If you’re talking about Evolution, Gender Equality or Feminism here you’re somewhat expected to be educated about it. Opposing Evolution without having heard of ecological niches or mutations or with a clearly refutable concepts like Intelligent Design is a no-go here.

Another example are languages: Of course there are people who are monolingual, but most aren’t. When I visited a summer school in Norway, most people (almost all from different countries in Europe) were learning Norwegian as a third language (and already pretty fluent), some had pretty good knowledge in a fourth one as well. You are expected to learn at least two, most people are open and care about other cultures, about understanding the world and want to learn more languages as a key to understand more, many won’t stop learning or wishing to learn more. Anglophones often seem to struggle with a second language."
The article that you linked is behind a paywall but it looks like it comes from a controversial author who claimed that men have a 5 point higher IQ average than women.

As for the opinion of someone on Quora, it isn’t worth a wank, even if they are from Switzerland.
 

Pogue Mahone

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UK is like Ireland minus those bizarre traffic lights...why wouldn't you have amber????!
We have amber. It’s the sequence that’s different. The different sequences reflect our differing mentalities.

Our lights go from green to amber to red. Basically saying “Take it handy there. The light’s about to change. Don’t want you to slam the breaks on. Slow yourself down a wee bit. Good man.” Yours go from red to amber to green. “QUICK! Get ready to go! You’re going to delay EVERYONE! Come on! Get into gear! Move it!”
 

christy87

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We have amber. It’s the sequence that’s different. The different sequences reflect our differing mentalities.

Our lights go from green to amber to red. Basically saying “Take it handy there. The light’s about to change. Don’t want you to slam the breaks on. Slow yourself down a wee bit. Good man.” Yours go from red to amber to green. “QUICK! Get ready to go! You’re going to delay EVERYONE! Come on! Get into gear! Move it!”
I think you got our lights system confused it’s green for go, then amber for go faster and red for oh feck I probably should stop, but only if it’s safe to.
 

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I once read that one difference between England and Germany, is that English people/society, relies/trusts on the government/authorities to take care of them, to make the best decisions for their people, so that's why English people don't (or didn't) need (ed) to be smart chaps. They trust (blindly?) everything gonna be alright because authorities (royalty?) will take care of it (and historically speaking, that used to be the case).

While in Germany, people is raised to be much more inquisitive, independent and "smart", because governments might not always gonna be there for you.

So that's why, the person with the lowest paying jobs in England, for example, let's say, a shop clerk, won't be the brightest around, and would barely know to do the minimum. A simpleton (because that was enough to have a good life).

While the same shop clerk in Germany, will know at least 2 languages and be the smartest person all around.

Judging by current events (Brexit, buying into propaganda, going the US route) and personal experience that sounds spot on.
There are Germans that speak 2 languages?! Or do you mean like:
Language 1: German
Language 2: German, but louder and with gestures.

If not, I haven't met many.
 

George Owen

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That's not the reason why Brits are breaking the rules. The vast majority of us don't give a shit about politicians. People here just don't like being told what to do.

It's a point I made here on 13 March 2020 before the first lockdown had even been announced:


You also have to remember that this is conservative country (I mean that with both a small 'c' and a big 'C'). The general population wants smaller government, lower taxes and less political interference in everyday lives. This forum is a bit of an echo chamber of leftism, but It's clearly not representative of the nation at large. To see that, simply look at the fact that we've only ever voted for one Labour leader as PM since the 1970s. And that was Tony fecking Blair.
No one likes to be told what to do. Anyway, I don't think that desobeying the rules set by experts is a sign of intelligence?

As for conservatism, I dont think it's as a economic conservativeness (otherwise the NHS would have been eliminated long time ago), as much as moral conservativeness (anti immigration for example). England was highly religious. God rules through the King/Queen... etc. "god save the queen" and everything will be alright, the will of God.. and it's used to be, until the seventies.

Until the seventies, being a simple person with basic knowledge, was enough to make a good life in England. Since then, capitalism took over and now it's not even close to being enough. I think Germans in general maybe where more prepared to adjust to this highly competitive new world because of how their education system has been built?





A lot of the English posters here are saying something similar, things are changing for the worst.
 

George Owen

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There are Germans that speak 2 languages?! Or do you mean like:
Language 1: German
Language 2: German, but louder and with gestures.

If not, I haven't met many.
100% of the germans I have met, spoke German and English (and even better than many english people I have met).
 

The Firestarter

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There are Germans that speak 2 languages?! Or do you mean like:
Language 1: German
Language 2: German, but louder and with gestures.

If not, I haven't met many.
The percentages of Germans speaking English is much higher compared to French speaking English, in my experience.
 

Dante

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No one likes to be told what to do. Anyway, I don't think that desobeying the rules set by experts is a sign of intelligence?

As for conservatism, I dont think it's as a economic conservativeness (otherwise the NHS would have been eliminated long time ago), as much as moral conservativeness (anti immigration for example). England was highly religious. God rules through the King/Queen... etc. "god save the queen" and everything will be alright, the will of God.. and it's used to be, until the seventies.

Until the seventies, being a simple person with basic knowledge, was enough to make a good life in England. Since then, capitalism took over and now it's not even close to being enough. I think Germans in general maybe where more prepared to adjust to this highly competitive new world because of how their education system has been built?





A lot of the English posters here are saying something similar, things are changing for the worst.
I've never at any point linked it to intelligence. Stubbornness has nothing to do with IQ.

But in relation to your later points, Brits spend longer in tertiary education than Germans.
 

KirkDuyt

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100% of the germans I have met, spoke German and English (and even better than many english people I have met).
The percentages of Germans speaking English is much higher compared to French speaking English, in my experience.
Ok fine it's better than it was 15 years ago, I just remember working in an amusement park on the German border in the 99s with them saying Pommes bitte and after asking, sorry do you speak English or Dutch saying POMMES BITTE.

They're kinda copying us now though with speaking English. Bunch of knock offs.
 

JPRouve

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Rather what you haven't : certainly not spoken enough English :D
To be fair why would we speak english? French is good enough for us, why don't you learn french when you decide to come to France? ;)
 

oates

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Time to move this to the Gen :lol:
 

Jippy

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That is quite simple really. There are numerous things I am proud of, including but not exclusively:
Our music, particularly rock.
Our sportsmen and sports women who constantly perform at the very highest level.
Our fantastic countryside.
Our overachieving economy.
Our scientists and engineers who produce world leading products.
And our sense of fair play.

Having said that, there are many other things I am not particularly proud of.
But on balance, there are more positive than negative things.
That's always been nonsense and an aspect of British exceptionalism. We industrialised mass-theft during colonisation, lied and cheated throughout and even the other month the UK was threatening to renege on an international treaty it had only just signed in February.
Britain would definitely be in the relegation zone of any global fair play league of countries.
 

JPRouve

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That's the sentiment I got as well from my experience :lol:
But that applies to french abroad, they better learn the language of the country they are going to and not expect that people just speak or try to speak french. That's an awful attitude that irks people, particularly in touristic areas where random people are treated as if they were supposed to be bilingual guides.
 

George Owen

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I've never at any point linked it to intelligence. Stubbornness has nothing to do with IQ.

But in relation to your later points, Brits spend longer in tertiary education than Germans.
Fair enough. But I'm referring more about the lowest paying jobs. The lowest skilled German worker, is more skilled than the lowest skilled British worker. Would you agree with that? (maybe "more skilled" is not the right wording, but, "better off"?)
 
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calodo2003

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You look at the food the average working-class Brit eats. It can be so bad



Pasta looks nice.

Does any other european country eat this badly.
What’s the orange drink with the McDonald’s? Orange juice to offer some actual nutrition?
 

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I've lived overseas long enough to see how unlike the rest of Europe the British are. We are far more closely related to Americans. Still, it's my home country and wherever I go i always miss it. It's got an unrivalled combination of efficiency, culture and history.

France, Italy, Germany, Switzerland, they all have good points and bad points, as does the UK, but the culture you grew up with is always the one you feel most comfortable in. The things that drive me mad about Italy and Switzerland, the locals shrug off. I do the same thing with their annoyances about Britain.

That all said, I have always thought if an alien humanoid species came to earth with no ties or pre-conceptions and had a free choice of where to live anywhere on the planet, nobody in their right mind would choose England.
 

Pogue Mahone

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I've lived overseas long enough to see how unlike the rest of Europe the British are. We are far more closely related to Americans. Still, it's my home country and wherever I go i always miss it. It's got an unrivalled combination of efficiency, culture and history.

France, Italy, Germany, Switzerland, they all have good points and bad points, as does the UK, but the culture you grew up with is always the one you feel most comfortable in. The things that drive me mad about Italy and Switzerland, the locals shrug off. I do the same thing with their annoyances about Britain.

That all said, I have always thought if an alien humanoid species came to earth with no ties or pre-conceptions and had a free choice of where to live anywhere on the planet, nobody in their right mind would choose England.
If only because of the weather! Uk and Ireland genuinely seem to have the shittest weather of any country I’ve ever visited. Not reliably warm and sunny in summer for a local beach/lake holiday, nor cold enough in winter to go skiing. 12 months of meh. It’s brutal.
 

JPRouve

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I've lived overseas long enough to see how unlike the rest of Europe the British are. We are far more closely related to Americans. Still, it's my home country and wherever I go i always miss it. It's got an unrivalled combination of efficiency, culture and history.

France, Italy, Germany, Switzerland, they all have good points and bad points, as does the UK, but the culture you grew up with is always the one you feel most comfortable in. The things that drive me mad about Italy and Switzerland, the locals shrug off. I do the same thing with their annoyances about Britain.

That all said, I have always thought if an alien humanoid species came to earth with no ties or pre-conceptions and had a free choice of where to live anywhere on the planet, nobody in their right mind would choose England.
It's funny that you mention that, many foreigners seem to have a big issue with how procedural french administration is or how long lunches last. While these are both good arguments from a foreigner standpoint, locals just anticipate these things it's part of the normal process. That's where subjectivity is key and why we shouldn't be too judgemental.
 

GlastonSpur

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I've lived overseas long enough to see how unlike the rest of Europe the British are. We are far more closely related to Americans. Still, it's my home country and wherever I go i always miss it. It's got an unrivalled combination of efficiency, culture and history.

France, Italy, Germany, Switzerland, they all have good points and bad points, as does the UK, but the culture you grew up with is always the one you feel most comfortable in. The things that drive me mad about Italy and Switzerland, the locals shrug off. I do the same thing with their annoyances about Britain.

That all said, I have always thought if an alien humanoid species came to earth with no ties or pre-conceptions and had a free choice of where to live anywhere on the planet, nobody in their right mind would choose England.
Completely disagree. I lived in the USA for 2 years - and have spent a fair amount of time in various European countries.

It's the commonality of language - English - that gives the illusion of cultural closeness with Americans, but in reality we have far more in common with the rest of Europe. This commonality ranges from a more or less shared consensus about the importance of social welfare systems - including healthcare - to a shared recent history of wars being waged on and across our own lands. It also includes a consensus that allowing large numbers of private citizens to own guns is a crazy idea, and that rationality and science should inform policy.

In Europe, by and large, you simply don't see the vast number of religious evangelical nutcases and other assorted crazies that live in the USA. And for all the racism that still exists in Europe, I would say it pales in comparison to the scale of racism that exists in the USA. European societies are comparatively
more integrated and cohesive than that of America, which is an incredibly divided society.
 
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Massive Spanner

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If only because of the weather! Uk and Ireland genuinely seem to have the shittest weather of any country I’ve ever visited. Not reliably warm and sunny in summer for a local beach/lake holiday, nor cold enough in winter to go skiing. 12 months of meh. It’s brutal.
I'd argue though that our mild climate means we never get the crazy modern extremes that other European countries get. These regular 40+ degree heatwaves we see every summer now. Absolutely brutal. And -15 in winter? Yeah, no thanks.

Also as someone who's spent dry season in SE Asia before, oh dear Christ give me our shitty weather any day of the week over that humid, dry, sticky 40 degree heat. Horrible!

I think the main problem with our weather here is the unpredictably of it, you can never reliably plan ahead for a day out or camping or whatever well in advance, which is probably why we all spend so much time getting pissed in the pub!

I loved the weather in Northern California though when I was there. Think there was heavy rain once in maybe two months and other than that it was generally sunny and a nice 25-30 degree heat with a good breeze. Then you've a quick(ish) drive up to Tahoe where you have ski resorts galore. Lovely stuff. Still, they're also going through a terrible drought and there's constant water preservation going on.
 

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Without reading a single post in the thread: I know that some of my fellow Scandinavians view the UK as "The United States of Europe" :D
 

Pogue Mahone

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I'd argue though that our mild climate means we never get the crazy modern extremes that other European countries get. These regular 40+ degree heatwaves we see every summer now. Absolutely brutal. And -15 in winter? Yeah, no thanks.

Also as someone who's spent dry season in SE Asia before, oh dear Christ give me our shitty weather any day of the week over that humid, dry, sticky 40 degree heat. Horrible!

I think the main problem with our weather here is the unpredictably of it, you can never reliably plan ahead for a day out or camping or whatever well in advance, which is probably why we all spend so much time getting pissed in the pub!

I loved the weather in Northern California though when I was there. Think there was heavy rain once in maybe two months and other than that it was generally sunny and a nice 25-30 degree heat with a good breeze. Then you've a quick(ish) drive up to Tahoe where you have ski resorts galore. Lovely stuff. Still, they're also going through a terrible drought and there's constant water preservation going on.
Yeah it’s the unpredictability that does my head in. I can take almost any type of weather, so long as I can plan accordingly. Can’t fecking stand weather where you don’t know whether to put on a jacket or not and there’s a good chance you’ll end up regretting your decision. Feck that.
 

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The UK is about as good as any other European country really although the one thing it has going for it is London and the financial services industry in which it is a world leader. Outside of London though the UK is not so rosy at all and probably doesn't compare very well to many of the leading European countries.
UK also has shit weather and mental health compared to most of Europe.
 

Classical Mechanic

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Outside of London though the UK is not so rosy at all
Come on, this is nonsense. You really think that outside of London there is no where that you can enjoy a good quality of life!?

I'd argue that there are scores of places that are much much better to live than London. Admittedly it depends on what you are looking for in life. No doubt there is a higher level of social deprivation in our poorest areas compared to some European countries but there are lots of nice places to live outside of the capital.
 

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Come on, this is nonsense. You really think that outside of London there is no where that you can enjoy a good quality of life!?

I'd argue that there are scores of places that are much much better to live than London. Admittedly it depends on what you are looking for in life. No doubt there is a higher level of social deprivation in our poorest areas compared to some European countries but there are lots of nice places to live outside of the capital.
Did I say that? No I didn't.
 

balaks

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In as many words - yes you did!
You are putting words into my mouth. Where did I mention quality of life? Please do quote me that bit because I think I'm going mad here. I'm talking about WEALTH - yes there are places that are very well off outside of London but by FAR the wealth of the UK is generated and exists in London to the detriment of everywhere else.
 

Classical Mechanic

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You are putting words into my mouth. Where did I mention quality of life? Please do quote me that bit because I think I'm going mad here. I'm talking about WEALTH - yes there are places that are very well off outside of London but by FAR the wealth of the UK is generated and exists in London to the detriment of everywhere else.
Sorry but if you saying that life isn't rosy at all outside of London then it reads to me like you are saying there's poor quality of life outside the capital. It isn't a big deal though.
 

balaks

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Sorry but if you saying that life isn't rosy at all outside of London then it reads to me like you are saying there's poor quality of life outside the capital. It isn't a big deal though.
Oh my god I didn't say 'life isn't rosy' outside of London. Mate will you stop. I've told you what I mean't and you CONTINUE to ignore it and read your own interpretation of it and then argue that what I didn't say but what you think I said is wrong.
 

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Completely disagree. I lived in the USA for 2 years - and have spent a fair amount of time in various European countries.

It's the commonality of language - English - that gives the illusion of cultural closeness with Americans, but in reality we have far more in common with the rest of Europe. This commonality ranges from a more or less shared consensus about the importance of social welfare systems - including healthcare - to a shared recent history of wars being waged on and across our own lands. It also includes a consensus that allowing large numbers of private citizens to own guns is a crazy idea, and that rationality and science should inform policy.

In Europe, by and large, you simply don't see the vast number of religious evangelical nutcases and other assorted crazies that live in the USA. And for all the racism that still exists in Europe, I would say it pales in comparison to the scale of racism that exists in the USA. European societies are comparatively more integrated and cohesive than that of America, which is an incredibly divided society.
I agree with Glaston, this is exactly how it is. And I'm not sold on the "England is efficient" thing, either. Other countries are more bureaucratic, but when you've worked through that things actually happen.

We had a heavy snowfall yesterday afternoon, by early evening the snowploughs were out. This is in a village, not a big city, on a Sunday evening. Can you ever see that happening in a town in England?
 

JPRouve

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I agree with Glaston, this is exactly how it is. And I'm not sold on the "England is efficient" thing, either. Other countries are more bureaucratic, but when you've worked through that things actually happen.

We had a heavy snowfall yesterday afternoon, by early evening the snowploughs were out. This is in a village, not a big city, on a Sunday evening. Can you ever see that happening in a town in England?
I was going to comment on the bureaucracy. The main difference in approach is that locals know how it is and anticipate for it, you can do everything relatively easily if you know how.
 

Dans

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You look at the food the average working-class Brit eats. It can be so bad



Pasta looks nice.

Does any other european country eat this badly.
Germany isn't very far off this to be honest.

Schnitzel and Pommes, Leberkase Semmel, Spätzle could easily be substituted in for the three food items in those pics.

Germans also drink unbelievable amounts of soft drinks too (Spezi, Coke etc).

I would only say that the German versions are slightly better quality than those UK examples.

I think in the UK much more frozen and ready meals are eaten. Here they do a "brotzeit" (plate of bread, cheese, pickles, hams etc) for a quick dinner, but at least it's relatively proper food.
 

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I'd say I'm very fond the of UK, but overall I prefer living in Denmark. Obviously the UK has a very rich cultural history(and all the baggage that comes with it), but I think the fact that we have tax paid tution for higher education in Denmark goes for a long way in promoting social mobility and makes it less likely that students will spend much of their lives paying off student loans. On average I noticed that Danes tend to look healthier than the average Brit, but maybe that it simply restricted to certain areas of the UK.