The United way

[Forevergiggs1]

Ole is WAAAAAY ahead of where Sir Alex was in his rebuild after 2.5 years. Let's not forget that Sir Alex finished 11th in his third season, then 13th.

Sir Alex didn't progress year on year like Ole has. Nor did Sir Matt whose first seasons were 11th, 2nd, 11th again...

Saying "Ole is stuck in a rose tinted view that he needs to be a Fergie clone without having the skillset" is like saying in 1989 that "Fergie is isstuck in a rose tinted view that he needs to be a Busby clone without having the skillset."

It makes no sense, and is narrow-minded in the extreme...

If you can't see the difference in the club from between Sir Matt or SAF took over and when Ole took over then there's absolutely no hope for you. These type of posts really grind my feckin gears.

 

[King7Eric]

You do realise you're sounding like a cult member? The point of sport is to win isn't it?

For the players, yes. For supporters it's about having that feeling of belonging and having a club with ethoes you can feel proud of to be associated with.

For example, do you think City and PSG fans ought to feel proud of how their club generates money that leads to their trophies?

So yes, for me following Man Utd is more than just winning trophies. I have been lucky enough to see my club win more trophies in my short lifetime than most clubs win in their existence, so I'm not as desperate as a City fan, for instance, to want to win trophies at any cost.

 

[BeforeKeanetherewasRobson]

Ole's not an attacking manager. First and foremost for him is not losing games.. we haven't got the manager to play massively attacking football AND be pretty certain of a positive result.

I cringe at the thought of people associating Sir Alex Ferguson with Ole. Uhh.

There you go.

I'm not associating them, I'm comparing one difference (the players at their disposal).

I'm not saying Ole is Fergie, no-one is and I'm not saying that with better players, Ole will definitely be more attacking (though I think he would be). But Fergie did manage (especially earlier days) (1) when two wingers more common (Blackburn - Ripley/Wilcox, Newcastle - Beardsley/Fox, arsenal - Limpar/Merson) and (2) with MUCH better players, some of our AT greats... good defenders mean you can be more attacking, good midfielders mean you can create more chances/more frequently and good attacking players mean those chances are taken.... Hughes, Sharpe, McClair are better than most of the current squad never mind Andrei, Giggs, Scholes, Ruud, Eric, RvP, Rooney, etc.

My point is Ole is slowly changing the squad but he inherited a mess and while improving, still limited by players/boards £££s. I think he knows the defence is not good enough to leave 2 or 3 back (like Fergie could leave Bruce/Pallister/Irwin or Stam/Johnsen/Neville) so he plays 2 defensive minded midfielders and limits a lot of attacks to counters (who'd leave Lindelof/Maguire/AWB by themselves??)

If he gets a top CH or a top Def Mid and we're still negative, THEN I'd be critical of him.

 

[Random Task]

United have gone more than 4000 matches in succession with at least one academy graduate in the first-team squad. A record stretching back some 90 years.

= the United way.

 

[GoldTrafford99]

[/QUOTE]


I know very well where United were under Big Ron before Alex took over (they finished 4th the two seasons before and third the year before that)...

Did you know that before you responded to me?

And then under Fergie they finished 11th, 2nd, 11th, 13th...

I remember it all so well...

What's your point? Or do my facts actually ruin the point you were embarrassingly trying to make?

Before Ole, and under Jose, United finished, 5th, 2nd, 6th

And under Ole in a full season, United have finished 3rd and are now 2nd....

 

[Lentwood]

For the players, yes. For supporters it's about having that feeling of belonging and having a club with ethoes you can feel proud of to be associated with.

For example, do you think City and PSG fans ought to feel proud of how their club generates money that leads to their trophies?

So yes, for me following Man Utd is more than just winning trophies. I have been lucky enough to see my club win more trophies in my short lifetime than most clubs win in their existence, so I'm not as desperate as a City fan, for instance, to want to win trophies at any cost.

Unfortunately this is an unpopular opinion these days. The social media banter brigade want and demand to win every game and every trophy. It’s not about enjoyment or watching your local team with your mates, it’s about winning and then going on Facebook to argue with equally gormless opposition fans.

 

[Sweet Square]

We're not a religion or cult, we're a football club.

 

[BR7]

Speaking of 442....I genuinely believe it would work if teams weren't so keen on copying one another and actually focused on plugging gaps within their own systems. Even when 442 was the main formation, there were teams who simply used the system with no real tactical philosophies. Fergie perfected and adapted the formation 3 different times in his tenure. The 1994 442 was really a 4411, as Cantona was as much of a 10 as Totti was for Roma , dropping deep to link play.
The 442 used in the treble was really a wide 4132, with scholes pushing up, and Beckham and Giggs being playmakers and coming into midfield, with Yorke sometimes dropping deeper, but for the most part both forwards able to hold the ball high up the pitch. The Rooney-Ronaldo era team was an assymetric 433 at times, with Giggs staying a little deeper and Ronaldo pushing up, very fluid and interchangable...and at times shapeless offensively. Carrick and Scholes sat deeper than in a regular 442 to make this work.

Can’t believe you managed to get all that information in such a relatively short post.

SAF was big on a rigid defence in whichever variation he played. The problem came when the lesser teams flooded the midfield.

 

[King7Eric]

Unfortunately this is an unpopular opinion these days. The social media banter brigade want and demand to win every game and every trophy. It’s not about enjoyment or watching your local team with your mates, it’s about winning and then going on Facebook to argue with equally gormless opposition fans.

We don't even have to go so far as Facebook, just look at the Caf. Everyone on here is an expert with their detailed analysis of how Ole is clueless and how some hipster German coach would be better for us.

I honestly don't get how these people get enjoyment from watching football.

 

[Galactic]

To me, the “United way” is all about winning, and winning with academy/homegrown players.

 

[dave1956]

I believe the United Way is summed up by 2 quotes from Sir Matt many years ago

" At Manchester United we strive for perfection and if we fail we must just have to settle for excellence ".

" I never wanted Manchester United to be second to anybody, only the best would be good enough ".

 

[Olecurls99]

The way of Busby and Ferguson. Few clubs have anything like our heritage so we should be proud of it and look to emulate it.

Promoting youth.
Brave, hard working, attacking, positive football.

Basically the exact opposite of Mourinho

 

[Olecurls99]

I completely disagree with this.

Every individual, group, team, society, business, nation, organisation etc...has to have a clear vision and philosophy in order to be successful. It's what motivates individuals and brings people together for the common good. Individuals that know what they are striving for perform better and work harder. Organisations that have a shared identity and common goals pull together in the same direction.

It's not about enforcing inflexible or ultimately pointless rules that dictate 'we must buy mainly British players' or 'we must have an average age equal to or less than 25'...it's an underlying belief in certain principles that will help ensure the club progresses in a sustainable and consistent manner.

In fact, you could argue that the evidence is right in-front of your eyes as to why we lost our way so badly. SAF had many strong belief, even if in those days nobody would take about 'philosophies' in relation to football. He believed in higher ideas over and above just thinking about the next game or even the next season. It's why clubs appoint Sporting Directors...so that individuals can come and go but the principles and philosophies don't go with them. SAF was basically our Manager but also our Sporting Director for 25 years.

After SAF, we had literally no idea what we wanted to do as a club. We had no strategic direction or vision. We had Ed Woodward coming out and talking about 'Adult Disneyland' and us having the resources to outbid any team in the transfer market. Every transfer window was a mad dash at the last-minute to bring in 'names' who might shift a few shirts. We were a laughing stock amongst agents and other clubs who time and time again used our reckless naivety to drive up the salaries and values of their players. We let good, hard-working players leave the club on a pittance and replaced them with overpaid mercenary players who don't give two hoots about what shirt they are wearing as long as there are enough zero's on their pay cheque. We handed out contracts like they where sweets, long-standing squad players who had served the club well were suddenly on less than half the salary of player's who had been here 5 minutes and contributed nothing. We went through three managers in no time, all with completely juxtaposed footballing ideas and philosophies and this led to a FrankenSquad made up of Moyes' panic buys, LvGs flexible footballers and Jose's Space Jam-style monster mash of 6ft+ players and workhorses.

Ole is the first manager we have had post-SAF with a vision. He is the first manager we have had who is willing to put the long-term interests of the club above his own. He is the only manager we have had since SAF who recognises that it's not about him, that the club existed a long-time before he did and will go on a long time after he leaves. I know you don't like Solskjaer because your one million threads on the matter demonstrate that very clearly...and to be honest I would tend to agree that he probably isn't the very best TACTICIAN or COACH that Manchester United football club could employ right now. However, what Ole has done is start to lay the foundations for future success by giving the club purposes, ideas and values again.

No longer do players just get handed huge contracts. They have to earn them. No longer are we toyed with in the transfer market. We move to distance ourselves from the circus of big name signings. No longer do we bring in players for the sake of it, rather we look to use what we have or promote players from within and only sign players if they bring definite qualities to the club. Suddenly, the squad is starting to take shape again. Yes, there are a few holes, you can't fix everything overnight unless you're a Sheikh's plaything, but now more than ever you can see we're getting closer and are possibly only one or two top signings away from being really competitive and in the shake up for major trophies.

It's symptomatic of the modern game for fans and chairmen to want to have their cake and eat it...well I am afraid there are very few shortcuts for 99% of clubs in world football and a little bit of patience is required.

Well said

 

[alexthelion]

Unfortunately this is an unpopular opinion these days. The social media banter brigade want and demand to win every game and every trophy. It’s not about enjoyment or watching your local team with your mates, it’s about winning and then going on Facebook to argue with equally gormless opposition fans.

So true.

 

[alexthelion]

I completely disagree with this.

Every individual, group, team, society, business, nation, organisation etc...has to have a clear vision and philosophy in order to be successful. It's what motivates individuals and brings people together for the common good. Individuals that know what they are striving for perform better and work harder. Organisations that have a shared identity and common goals pull together in the same direction.

It's not about enforcing inflexible or ultimately pointless rules that dictate 'we must buy mainly British players' or 'we must have an average age equal to or less than 25'...it's an underlying belief in certain principles that will help ensure the club progresses in a sustainable and consistent manner.

In fact, you could argue that the evidence is right in-front of your eyes as to why we lost our way so badly. SAF had many strong belief, even if in those days nobody would take about 'philosophies' in relation to football. He believed in higher ideas over and above just thinking about the next game or even the next season. It's why clubs appoint Sporting Directors...so that individuals can come and go but the principles and philosophies don't go with them. SAF was basically our Manager but also our Sporting Director for 25 years.

After SAF, we had literally no idea what we wanted to do as a club. We had no strategic direction or vision. We had Ed Woodward coming out and talking about 'Adult Disneyland' and us having the resources to outbid any team in the transfer market. Every transfer window was a mad dash at the last-minute to bring in 'names' who might shift a few shirts. We were a laughing stock amongst agents and other clubs who time and time again used our reckless naivety to drive up the salaries and values of their players. We let good, hard-working players leave the club on a pittance and replaced them with overpaid mercenary players who don't give two hoots about what shirt they are wearing as long as there are enough zero's on their pay cheque. We handed out contracts like they where sweets, long-standing squad players who had served the club well were suddenly on less than half the salary of player's who had been here 5 minutes and contributed nothing. We went through three managers in no time, all with completely juxtaposed footballing ideas and philosophies and this led to a FrankenSquad made up of Moyes' panic buys, LvGs flexible footballers and Jose's Space Jam-style monster mash of 6ft+ players and workhorses.

Ole is the first manager we have had post-SAF with a vision. He is the first manager we have had who is willing to put the long-term interests of the club above his own. He is the only manager we have had since SAF who recognises that it's not about him, that the club existed a long-time before he did and will go on a long time after he leaves. I know you don't like Solskjaer because your one million threads on the matter demonstrate that very clearly...and to be honest I would tend to agree that he probably isn't the very best TACTICIAN or COACH that Manchester United football club could employ right now. However, what Ole has done is start to lay the foundations for future success by giving the club purposes, ideas and values again.

No longer do players just get handed huge contracts. They have to earn them. No longer are we toyed with in the transfer market. We move to distance ourselves from the circus of big name signings. No longer do we bring in players for the sake of it, rather we look to use what we have or promote players from within and only sign players if they bring definite qualities to the club. Suddenly, the squad is starting to take shape again. Yes, there are a few holes, you can't fix everything overnight unless you're a Sheikh's plaything, but now more than ever you can see we're getting closer and are possibly only one or two top signings away from being really competitive and in the shake up for major trophies.

It's symptomatic of the modern game for fans and chairmen to want to have their cake and eat it...well I am afraid there are very few shortcuts for 99% of clubs in world football and a little bit of patience is required.

Well said.

 

[Foxbatt]

I believe the United Way is summed up by 2 quotes from Sir Matt many years ago

" At Manchester United we strive for perfection and if we fail we must just have to settle for excellence ".

" I never wanted Manchester United to be second to anybody, only the best would be good enough ".

It seems to me that to a lot of them here it became Manchester United after Fergie took over. As for comparing SAF and Ole, they must be WUMs. One has already broken the Glasgow monopoly and won the EC beating Bayern and Real. Well the other did not have much experience in any major league or competition.

 

[Mr Smith]

The only United way i'm proud of is using our youth academy to full effect.

Keeping youngsters flowing through the club, we definiely do that well. We have a great crop of Shoretire, Diallo, Mejbri and soon Hugill and possibly Laird to join them.

Tactics shouldn't be set in stone for any club, you have to evolve with the times. Our fascination on quick counter attacks can be detrimental at times.

This. We shouldn't be married to any kind of playing style. There are three principals that I would want to be considered "the United Way":
- promoting youth
- No player being bigger than the club
- 100% effort on the pitch at all times

I believe the above principles should be non-negotiable at the club, and the foundation of the club culture.

 

[Cast5]

It’ll always be subjective. A lot of people found Peps Barcelona boring and Spain boring despite high goal scoring figures. Many others found them thrilling to watch. This current United side, pretty much nobody outside the club ever talks about United being pleasing to watch. United fans who do, like yourself, this season, have pointed to the number of goals scored but you rarely see comments in regards to the way we move the ball or score goals.
We are a very productive and efficient team but in general people do not see us as a good footballing team, it’s just how it is. It’s not a controversial view and it doesn’t become negated by goals scored.

Is that a fact chief? Not sure it is.

 

[Cast5]

You do realise you're sounding like a cult member? We're not a religion or cult, we're a football club. You're distorting from the basic point of sport, which is to win isn't it?

I’d be a United fan if they were in the 3rd division, not sure who you would support, Madrid, Barca or Bayern take your pick. Would rather be a cult member than a glory hunter.

 

[alexthelion]

I’d be a United fan if they were in the 3rd division, not sure who you would support, Madrid, Barca or Bayern take your pick. Would rather be a cult member than a glory hunter.

Would be interesting to see how many "supporters" abandoned United if they were relegated like in the 70s.

 

[simplyared]

The united way ceased to be when David Moyes was shown the door. We had Busby, The Doc and Sir Alex. No coincidence the chosen one happened to be a Scot.
If we hadn't got Sir Alex it would have been George Graham.

 

[simplyared]

Yeah there are some ridiculously good players over the years from the academy.

As for them names, incredible. Dennis Violett is another from the academy, he was a Busby Babe, survived the Munich Air Disaster, and scored 159 goals for the club in only 293 appearances. I also find it cool that he was from Fallowfield in Manchester, I lived there for a while when I was at Uni.

So you'd know the toast rack then. Iconic building or eyesore? From Fallowfield myself. Didn't know Dennis Violett was from there. What street?

 

[Bilbo]

I completely disagree with this.

Every individual, group, team, society, business, nation, organisation etc...has to have a clear vision and philosophy in order to be successful. It's what motivates individuals and brings people together for the common good. Individuals that know what they are striving for perform better and work harder. Organisations that have a shared identity and common goals pull together in the same direction.

It's not about enforcing inflexible or ultimately pointless rules that dictate 'we must buy mainly British players' or 'we must have an average age equal to or less than 25'...it's an underlying belief in certain principles that will help ensure the club progresses in a sustainable and consistent manner.

In fact, you could argue that the evidence is right in-front of your eyes as to why we lost our way so badly. SAF had many strong belief, even if in those days nobody would take about 'philosophies' in relation to football. He believed in higher ideas over and above just thinking about the next game or even the next season. It's why clubs appoint Sporting Directors...so that individuals can come and go but the principles and philosophies don't go with them. SAF was basically our Manager but also our Sporting Director for 25 years.

After SAF, we had literally no idea what we wanted to do as a club. We had no strategic direction or vision. We had Ed Woodward coming out and talking about 'Adult Disneyland' and us having the resources to outbid any team in the transfer market. Every transfer window was a mad dash at the last-minute to bring in 'names' who might shift a few shirts. We were a laughing stock amongst agents and other clubs who time and time again used our reckless naivety to drive up the salaries and values of their players. We let good, hard-working players leave the club on a pittance and replaced them with overpaid mercenary players who don't give two hoots about what shirt they are wearing as long as there are enough zero's on their pay cheque. We handed out contracts like they where sweets, long-standing squad players who had served the club well were suddenly on less than half the salary of player's who had been here 5 minutes and contributed nothing. We went through three managers in no time, all with completely juxtaposed footballing ideas and philosophies and this led to a FrankenSquad made up of Moyes' panic buys, LvGs flexible footballers and Jose's Space Jam-style monster mash of 6ft+ players and workhorses.

Ole is the first manager we have had post-SAF with a vision. He is the first manager we have had who is willing to put the long-term interests of the club above his own. He is the only manager we have had since SAF who recognises that it's not about him, that the club existed a long-time before he did and will go on a long time after he leaves. I know you don't like Solskjaer because your one million threads on the matter demonstrate that very clearly...and to be honest I would tend to agree that he probably isn't the very best TACTICIAN or COACH that Manchester United football club could employ right now. However, what Ole has done is start to lay the foundations for future success by giving the club purposes, ideas and values again.

No longer do players just get handed huge contracts. They have to earn them. No longer are we toyed with in the transfer market. We move to distance ourselves from the circus of big name signings. No longer do we bring in players for the sake of it, rather we look to use what we have or promote players from within and only sign players if they bring definite qualities to the club. Suddenly, the squad is starting to take shape again. Yes, there are a few holes, you can't fix everything overnight unless you're a Sheikh's plaything, but now more than ever you can see we're getting closer and are possibly only one or two top signings away from being really competitive and in the shake up for major trophies.

It's symptomatic of the modern game for fans and chairmen to want to have their cake and eat it...well I am afraid there are very few shortcuts for 99% of clubs in world football and a little bit of patience is required.

Very good post. Enjoyed reading that.

 

[Bilbo]

Would be interesting to see how many "supporters" abandoned United if they were relegated like in the 70s.

The glory boys would desert us in their droves if we ever got relegated. I bet we'd still get 70,000+ in for our home games though.

 

[King7Eric]

To play Devil's advocate, this is basically saying you don't want a meritocratic environment at the club. I do value the academy side of it, particularly after seeing ex players like Januzaj or Johnstone talk so fondly of their time a United, the idea of kids being taught respect which is slowly dying in football now (when you hear class of '92, Lampard, Terry, Gerrard talk about breaking into the first team you had to clean the senior players boots and be respectful etc) but I'd rather we had a coach who won things and left after a few years than someone I liked.

It's interesting because for me, in my thirties and having never really lived through Big Ron's tenure and only known SAF, my single biggest gripe with our club is the inability to move away from the successes of SAF, the class of '92, the ideas that were successful but are not in keeping with the speed at which football is changing, for example signing LVG as we saw the importance of possession football and in less than two seasons just sacking it off, going for instant success with Mou and now trying some kind of reset button with Ole. What are we resetting to? We're not like Ajax who, fair play to them, have a set system of coaching and style of play that is pretty constant. SAF didn't have one style of play, he was the master of reinvention so how can you reset to something that was always evolving?

Sorry I missed your post.

Anyway, to reply to what you are saying, I would refer you to the excellent post made by @Lentwood. As he says Ole is the first manager post-SAF, where we can all agree that every decision he makes is intended for the long-term benefit of the club. We all want what's best for our club, and as any recruiter will tell you, it is not necessary that the most qualified or talented person is the best fit for the job. There may be more tactically astute coaches than Ole, but can we be sure they have the long-term benefit of the club at heart?

Of course many on here will say that long-term benefit stems from short term success only but I disagree with it. Take Leicester as an example. They won the league in 2016, but as a club they weren't ready for that success. And what happened afterward? They floundered for a few seasons before getting it right with their recruitment and managerial appointment. Now if Leicester were to win the league next season, I'm sure the following seasons they will be able to maintain close to that level because as a club they are ready for it. Now, for a club of Leicester's stature, sure 1 league title is worth even a decade of floundering afterwards because they have never had that success before, but the profile of Man Utd is different.

Liverpool is another example. They came close to winning the league in 2014 before floundering horribly a couple of seasons because they too weren't ready for it. Under Klopp they slowly built towards becoming a solid unit and had 3 very good seasons, culminating in a league and CL. It was a gradual progression that made them ready for the success they achieved.

Man City as well, after their takeover, didn't immediately buy the best players and hire the best manager even though they could afford it. They gradually bought Premier league proven players who could get them CL and then proceeded to buy stars like Aguero and Silva to take them to the next level, setting the stage for Pep to arrive and dominate the league. This groundwork wasn't laid by Pep, but by their sporting director or technical staff or whatever they call them. Pep was the icing on the cake.

At Man Utd, after the mess the appointments of Moyes, LVG and Jose left, we needed someone to prepare the cake, to start from scratch. And that's why Ole is the man for the job, because he has the patience and profile and fan support to do that, something that Nagelsmann or Rose likely wouldn't have because they work under a totally different club structure in Germany. At Utd, we don't have a Sporting Director to lay the groundwork like City have, we rely on our managers to do it, so someone like Ole who is familiar with this system is a meritocratic appointment, over someone who may be more tactically astute, but would be a duck out of water in the structure of a club like Man Utd.

Ole is gradually preparing us for success. The team is improving every season under him and I'm sure when we do achieve that success, it won't be a flash in the pan, followed by a period of decline, but rather it will be a sustainable success.

 

[tomaldinho1]

Sorry I missed your post.

Anyway, to reply to what you are saying, I would refer you to the excellent post made by @Lentwood. As he says Ole is the first manager post-SAF, where we can all agree that every decision he makes is intended for the long-term benefit of the club. We all want what's best for our club, and as any recruiter will tell you, it is not necessary that the most qualified or talented person is the best fit for the job. There may be more tactically astute coaches than Ole, but can we be sure they have the long-term benefit of the club at heart?

This is definitely a positive thing although I think it might be slightly rose coloured in it's view. Ole definitely loves United but he's not going to bite off his nose to spite his face, he wants to win things - he's not really making sacrifices when building this team (for example buying Maguire was an expensive decision for immediate impact with a mature player) but I agree he cares the most of all post SAF managers about the club. I do think there is a real misplacement of importance amongst United fans for longevity/stability above results which is knock on from having been spoiled with SAF's tenure - if Ole does well I don't think he'd ever leave and this is highly attractive to our fan base and clouds judgement.

Of course many on here will say that long-term benefit stems from short term success only but I disagree with it. Take Leicester as an example. They won the league in 2016, but as a club they weren't ready for that success. And what happened afterward? They floundered for a few seasons before getting it right with their recruitment and managerial appointment. Now if Leicester were to win the league next season, I'm sure the following seasons they will be able to maintain close to that level because as a club they are ready for it. Now, for a club of Leicester's stature, sure 1 league title is worth even a decade of floundering afterwards because they have never had that success before, but the profile of Man Utd is different.

Completely disagree, Leicester's title win has really changed them as a club. They made a weird choice in hiring Puel but in a short space of time now have a relatively young progressive manager (who is PL proven), an excellent scouting and recruiting team (I'd argue best in the PL) and they have forced their way into being a club that's a genuine force in the top four. Last season injuries derailed them, this season they look excellent again. Explain how this is not progress; Promotion, 14th, 1st, 12th, 9th, 9th, 5th, 3rd* in the space of ~6 years they have gone from being a Championship team to a CL contender, no other club comes close to that kind of progress.

Liverpool is another example. They came close to winning the league in 2014 before floundering horribly a couple of seasons because they too weren't ready for it. Under Klopp they slowly built towards becoming a solid unit and had 3 very good seasons, culminating in a league and CL. It was a gradual progression that made them ready for the success they achieved.

Agreed on this one. Klopp/Liverpool is the perfect case study for when you see a team being built over a few seasons.

Man City as well, after their takeover, didn't immediately buy the best players and hire the best manager even though they could afford it. They gradually bought Premier league proven players who could get them CL and then proceeded to buy stars like Aguero and Silva to take them to the next level, setting the stage for Pep to arrive and dominate the league. This groundwork wasn't laid by Pep, but by their sporting director or technical staff or whatever they call them. Pep was the icing on the cake.

Agree/Disagree here, they tried to hire the best managers and players but ended up with people like Hughes and making a huge deal about Robinho type signings because the best of the best weren't interested. I personally think they should have been more successful than they have been but agree on the influence of Bergstein et al. They had a slow build but for all the plaudits Pep gets there, I see Mancini being the one who really brought them into that elite bracket.

At Man Utd, after the mess the appointments of Moyes, LVG and Jose left, we needed someone to prepare the cake, to start from scratch. And that's why Ole is the man for the job, because he has the patience and profile and fan support to do that, something that Nagelsmann or Rose likely wouldn't have because they work under a totally different club structure in Germany. At Utd, we don't have a Sporting Director to lay the groundwork like City have, we rely on our managers to do it, so someone like Ole who is familiar with this system is a meritocratic appointment, over someone who may be more tactically astute, but would be a duck out of water in the structure of a club like Man Utd.

Ole is gradually preparing us for success. The team is improving every season under him and I'm sure when we do achieve that success, it won't be a flash in the pan, followed by a period of decline, but rather it will be a sustainable success.

On the last point maybe that's where we differ the most because I think 'knowing the club' is potentially more of a negative. I think United should decide what type of football we want to play and then select a manager based on merit and proof of their work, nothing more or less than that. If they happen to have played for the club that's an added bonus but the message should always be that we demand and want the absolute best. I like Ole and he gives the impression of being wholly invested in this job but then so would I, or you, or probably most ex United players who are now managers out there. At the end of this season it will be very easy to judge if there is any progress or not and I think it's a lot less certain than you write it above.

 

[BR7]

If you can't see the difference in the club from between Sir Matt or SAF took over and when Ole took over then there's absolutely no hope for you. These type of posts really grind my feckin gears.

Well, get used to them we’ve been letting this type in since we started winning. The winner picker generation

 

[Ludens the Red]

Is that a fact chief? Not sure it is.

Unfortunately It is. We only ever get back handed praise for counter attacking. Any praise is related to our fast forwards on the break. Never anything about passing or great build up play.

 

[King7Eric]

On the last point maybe that's where we differ the most because I think 'knowing the club' is potentially more of a negative. I think United should decide what type of football we want to play and then select a manager based on merit and proof of their work, nothing more or less than that. If they happen to have played for the club that's an added bonus but the message should always be that we demand and want the absolute best. I like Ole and he gives the impression of being wholly invested in this job but then so would I, or you, or probably most ex United players who are now managers out there. At the end of this season it will be very easy to judge if there is any progress or not and I think it's a lot less certain than you write it above.

While I agree with most of what you say here, the thing is, for better or worse, we don't have anyone to make this decision apart from the manager. At this point, perhaps its time to accept, that for whatever reason, Woodward is not going to appoint a Sporting Director. He's had multiple opportunities to do so but for whatever reason has failed to do so,

So our sporting direction comes mainly from the manager. Essentially we are still looking at our manager to act as both a manager/coach and Sporting Director. That's why I believe it's imperative that this person understands the "United Way". Of course, results are important but I am willing to give more leeway to an individual who I can see is trying to incorporate structural changes in the squad and mentality (like Ole). In modern football, this is usually not the manager's job but here it is, that's why I do feel we need a unique profile of individual at our helm, at least until we appoint a Sporting Director (if we ever do).

From my viewpoint, Ole has improved most of the players he inherited, and for the most part, has signed good players. Even tactically, I've seen him come up against the top managers and held his own. Yes, of course, there is scope for improvement and we still have a while to go before we have a squad that looks mentally ready to win the league, but I do believe Ole is taking steps in the right direction and I'm willing to give him at least a year more to see where he takes us.

 

[tomaldinho1]

While I agree with most of what you say here, the thing is, for better or worse, we don't have anyone to make this decision apart from the manager. At this point, perhaps its time to accept, that for whatever reason, Woodward is not going to appoint a Sporting Director. He's had multiple opportunities to do so but for whatever reason has failed to do so,

So our sporting direction comes mainly from the manager. Essentially we are still looking at our manager to act as both a manager/coach and Sporting Director. That's why I believe it's imperative that this person understands the "United Way". Of course, results are important but I am willing to give more leeway to an individual who I can see is trying to incorporate structural changes in the squad and mentality (like Ole). In modern football, this is usually not the manager's job but here it is, that's why I do feel we need a unique profile of individual at our helm, at least until we appoint a Sporting Director (if we ever do).

From my viewpoint, Ole has improved most of the players he inherited, and for the most part, has signed good players. Even tactically, I've seen him come up against the top managers and held his own. Yes, of course, there is scope for improvement and we still have a while to go before we have a squad that looks mentally ready to win the league, but I do believe Ole is taking steps in the right direction and I'm willing to give him at least a year more to see where he takes us.

The DoF point is an interesting debate because I'm not even sure it's necessary, there's no rule saying a single DoF is essential and maybe our new approach of the transfer committee is a good one. My understanding is Ole is part of that committee but is not identifying players, more greenlighting options presented to him by Lawlor and Bout? with Judge being the one who would know what we could offer and structure a contract and that's how I think a large football club should be run, with multiple experts across different fields combining.

The big test for me with Ole is can we transition from being the 'defensive' team i.e. are we always going to setup versus the top teams in the more reactionary manner we do or is there a longer term plan because you can see how the top 6 have all changed their approach to playing us now (Pep just wrote our home game off by playing a double pivot which was very unlike him & Lampard also just came for a draw) and so we have develop a way to enforce ourselves onto top teams and also overcome the stubborn low block teams which have derailed any faint hopes we had of pushing City close this season.

 

[EvilChuck]

If you can't see the difference in the club from between Sir Matt or SAF took over and when Ole took over then there's absolutely no hope for you. These type of posts really grind my feckin gears.

I dont know too much detail of when Sir Matt took over, but I could definitely draw comparisons in the situation between Mourinho's time here and Big Ron's. Big Ron won a few cups and took us to 3rd in the league a couple of times after years in the wilderness, which suggested we were going in the right direction. Then he completely lost the dressing room and was sacked.

SAF came in and took a few seasons to sort out the (drinking) culture of the club, and a few seasons of pressure from fans and media alike because there wasnt deemed to be enough progress on the pitch could have seen him sacked as well.

While I am not saying that Ole is 100% another SAF, we have been down this road before, and seen how a bit of patience with a manager who has the bigger picture in mind can reap years of success. And of the managers we have had post SAF Ole is the first one who I'd trust wants to still be here in 4 or 5 years time, and is working towards ensuring they have the pieces in place to make that a possibility.

 

[Grande]

The United Way is not one thing, but many. It’s a manifold of different cultural practices, communal feelings and historical traditions that makes Man United not any other club in the world.

That the club originiated as a railroad workers football team, and was built on the riches of the industrial revolution and through the need for uplifting and dreams of working class people in and around Manchester, is reflected in many ways in the fabric of the club’s history. United players arranged the first strike in English football and were subjected to lock out (The Outsiders). Busby was inspired by it and Ferguson was inspired by it. It’s in no way unique to Man Utd, but it’s recurrent role in the making of the club’s history is a fact.That fact exists side by side with the fact that it’s one of the world’s richest clubs and is owned by American ultracapitalists, as a tension. It’s proof is the Green and Gold protests against the Glazers and the fact that ticket prices increases have been stalled much against the intentions of the owners. That’s not to say United isn’t open for all classes and people of different political beliefs, but, it means that if Uniteds owners suddenly would try to model theclub as a Posh Polo club, it would meet massive resistance. Changing the name of Old Trafford to Amex Stadium meets a lot more resistance than at many other clubs. It’s a struggle that creates tension with other things that are ‘United Way’ (Ambition to be the best), and the tension is evidence of both factors being very real.

Other forces that have come to make The United Way:

- Importance of youth (Busby Babes, Class of 92)
- Daring to dream big (The transformation to Manchester United in 1902, First English club in Europe, First English to win the European cup, Theatre of Dreams)
- Grit (Railroad workers olaying in mud, rebuilding after WWII and Münich, Nobby Stiles and Roy Keane
- Glamourous excitement (Billy ‘The Welsh Wizard’ Meredith, The Babes, The 5th Beatle Georgie Best, Champagne Atkinson and Eric the King)
- Striving for the absolute top (John Henry Davies 1902, Ernest Mangnall’s team of 1906-11, Busby, Ferguson, repeated European cup winners, World champions)
- Phoenix rising or sriking back from adversity (Bankrupcy threat 1902, Old Trafford bombed, Coming back after the air crash, Baby Doc’s boys fighting back after relegation with the third biggest average attendance including the 1st divisions teams, Fergie time and Nou Camp)
- Community through traditions (The name ‘Manchester United’, Old Trafford, the shared tragedy of the Babes, We’ll keep The Red Flag Flying High’, increased relations with The Greater Manchester community.
These forces all wax and wane, but they don’t disappear, and many of them were at work causing deep disillution under the combined powers of Glazer, Woodward and Mourinho, and is a reason why, despite vocal complaints from quite a few, there is more positivity and optimism around the club than for a long time, despite Glazers still being here.

 

[Forevergiggs1]

I dont know too much detail of when Sir Matt took over, but I could definitely draw comparisons in the situation between Mourinho's time here and Big Ron's. Big Ron won a few cups and took us to 3rd in the league a couple of times after years in the wilderness, which suggested we were going in the right direction. Then he completely lost the dressing room and was sacked.

SAF came in and took a few seasons to sort out the (drinking) culture of the club, and a few seasons of pressure from fans and media alike because there wasnt deemed to be enough progress on the pitch could have seen him sacked as well.

While I am not saying that Ole is 100% another SAF, we have been down this road before, and seen how a bit of patience with a manager who has the bigger picture in mind can reap years of success. And of the managers we have had post SAF Ole is the first one who I'd trust wants to still be here in 4 or 5 years time, and is working towards ensuring they have the pieces in place to make that a possibility.

While I'm not disagreeing with you in principal anyone who makes such outrageous comments deserves to be vilified.

Ole is WAAAAAY ahead of where Sir Alex was in his rebuild after 2.5 years. Let's not forget that Sir Alex finished 11th in his third season, then 13th.

Sir Alex didn't progress year on year like Ole has. Nor did Sir Matt whose first seasons were 11th, 2nd, 11th again...

Looks like sammsky has turned it up a notch.

 

[monosierra]

Any successful 'Way' has to correspond to winning. There is no 'Way' without victories to justify its practice. Winning doesn't need a 'Way' but a 'Way' that doesn't lead to long term success is no 'Way' to follow.

 

[King7Eric]

The DoF point is an interesting debate because I'm not even sure it's necessary, there's no rule saying a single DoF is essential and maybe our new approach of the transfer committee is a good one. My understanding is Ole is part of that committee but is not identifying players, more greenlighting options presented to him by Lawlor and Bout? with Judge being the one who would know what we could offer and structure a contract and that's how I think a large football club should be run, with multiple experts across different fields combining.

The big test for me with Ole is can we transition from being the 'defensive' team i.e. are we always going to setup versus the top teams in the more reactionary manner we do or is there a longer term plan because you can see how the top 6 have all changed their approach to playing us now (Pep just wrote our home game off by playing a double pivot which was very unlike him & Lampard also just came for a draw) and so we have develop a way to enforce ourselves onto top teams and also overcome the stubborn low block teams which have derailed any faint hopes we had of pushing City close this season.

Yeah, I agree that is the next step to take for this team. It will depend on how the coaching staff can improve our current players but also our recruitment in the summer. Let's see.

 

[tjb]

Can’t believe you managed to get all that information in such a relatively short post.

SAF was big on a rigid defence in whichever variation he played. The problem came when the lesser teams flooded the midfield.

That's true..TBH, a fluid defence would be a horrible thing

 

[Cast5]

Unfortunately It is. We only ever get back handed praise for counter attacking. Any praise is related to our fast forwards on the break. Never anything about passing or great build up play.

That’s just not true at all.

 

[tomaldinho1]

Yeah, I agree that is the next step to take for this team. It will depend on how the coaching staff can improve our current players but also our recruitment in the summer. Let's see.

Yep exactly. It's in the balance but we're well placed for top four which is my realistic expectation. V hard run of PL games on the horizon which will be make or break time.

 

[tjb]

Very good post. Enjoyed reading that.

I agree. I can't see how people can't see this.

Real's galactico policy works for them because they are in sunny spain and have a structure in which the club appoints presidents. This means that each president that comes in has a set period of time to create a successful era for the club, hence spending massive amounts of money, selling training grounds etc just to make sure they have short term success.

Barcelona's culture and policy are twofold. Off the pitch it has always been a brand that opposes oppression and commercialization ( even though they are very commercial). The fight for Catalan independence is part of the reason the club heavily values its youth system, wanting to promote and invest in as much Spanish and Catalan nationals as possible ( without going overboard like Bilbao with Basque nationals). Secondly, the possession based systems are heavily valued at it has proven to be consistently successful in La Liga. All of Barca's best teams in La Liga have all been possession based. La Liga is a slower paced league in which there is not as much direct play, hence dominating possession through the middle is more valuable in this league than anywhere else, which has allowed their tactical philosophy to be so successful domestically.

Juventus are a team that has always valued hard workers rather than technical ability across the 11. They try their best to make sure their system is rigid enough to protect their backline. Italian football is mostly dominated by the teams with the most discipline, as attacks are carried by players who tasked with displaying individual creativity rather than team based combinations. The Juventus belief is that if their midfield and defence are hard working and disciplined enough, they can withstand the individual threat of indivdual creators and attackers, their policy has proven successful over the years.

The United way is similar.
a. the club knows that manchester weather isn't for everyone and hence has always had a preference for British players, at least across most of the team.
b. United also understand that to be consistently succesful, you need players who are able and willing to play for a relatively long time for the club....hence we invest heavily in youth, hoping they can grow to become superstars, some like Bellion fail, others like Rooney and Ronaldo succeed.
c. We understand the physical and aggressive nature of the league so we have always signed players with particular characters and styles of play....usually fast, high work rate players that have the physical strengths and balance to impose themselves on the game. It's probably the reason we didn't sign Ozil in 2010 and would never have signed players like Mata, Blind and Lindelof. A premier league requires players with high work rate and tenacity first and foremost, before technical abilities come into play. Keane, Ince, Robson, Scholes, Fletcher, even Carrick . We would never have signed Pogba with Fergie around.
d. We always had creative wingers...why? because due to the pace and direct style of the premier league, playing through the flanks and stretching play has always been the best means of success in the premier league...its also the reason we always had strong centre forwards with a good first touch.

Point being, all these teams had philosophies that fit their situations. United have never been a superstar hub and has always focused more on team that individual. Real has always been a superstar hub, focusing on individually creative individuals and hiring managers that are better at managing their stars.

 

[tjb]

Yeah, I agree that is the next step to take for this team. It will depend on how the coaching staff can improve our current players but also our recruitment in the summer. Let's see.

I feel our next phase would actually be to ensure that our defence and midfield are
a. solid enough to regain possession rather easily, creating counter attacking opportunites.
b. good enough at passing to at least know how to retain possession in events that require possession domination.