The vaccines | AZ approved in UK - Pfizer/Moderna rollout underway

When will you take a covid vaccine?

  • As part of a covid trial

  • When it's approved/available for my age/risk group

  • 6 months after the bulk of my age/risk group

  • At least a year and I want to choose the brand

  • Only if I have to - for work or travel etc

  • Ten years +


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Wolverine

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If we accept those under 40 are at a very low risk I still don't know that these hold up.

Protect family & friends? - They're vaccinated.
Avoid health difficulties - Very slim risk (All vaccines carry SOME risk)
Halting of the spread - Numbers are already lowering, if all those previously mentioned are vaccinated then that halts the spread. Let alone those already previously infected.
Risk of fatality under 40 - VERY VERY VERY few without comorbidities have died from Covid.
A lot of focus on covid for younger people is on mortality but not enough on morbidity,

My wife's cousin is early 30s, ran marathons, never unwell. he was on of the first people hospitalised in ITU with covid around March. He was discharged after a long time on ventilation after 3 unsuccessful attempts to extubate. Because of the high sedation, he has chronic insomnia, tiredness, chest pains, shortness of breath on minimal exertion, persistent sore throat.

We don't know the long term effect of covid yet fully - we know it can cause heart problems in a significant amount of people, even young. But I know many who contracted covid and had mild-to-moderate symptoms yet have debilitating symptoms from chest pains, shortness of breath, chronic cough, vertigo, depression, rashes with little improvement from traditional medication regimens that we use to treat aforementioned symptoms.

And we don't know the even long term sequelae of this virus - as mentioned we know other viruses can have significant long term effects such as cancer (e.g. HPV), irreversible neurological disease (e.g. SSPE from measles, multiple sclerosis from EBV), chronic pain (post-herpetic neuralgia from varicella zoster virus).

Bottom line, if you contract covid you probably will be fine, but there is a significant chance that you won't be.

I don't know when I'll get the vaccine but I'd do everything I can do get it personally.
 

Infra-red

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Can someone explain to me why you would take the vaccine if you were under 40, assuming everyone that is over 40 and also those who are compromised do so?
Aside from the obvious public health benefits mentioned above, if you fancy getting on an aeroplane or attending a football match or possibly a multitude of other things, being vaccinated might soon become a requirement of admission.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-australia-55048438
 

Berbasbullet

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My partner works for the NHS and has been offered one and is going to turn it down. Which is highly frustrating.

Does she have a point? She is worried about the long term effects? Surely it’s all perfectly sound as it has gone through the appropriate trials and been in the works off the back of years of SARS work.
 

bsCallout

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A lot of focus on covid for younger people is on mortality but not enough on morbidity,

My wife's cousin is early 30s, ran marathons, never unwell. he was on of the first people hospitalised in ITU with covid around March. He was discharged after a long time on ventilation after 3 unsuccessful attempts to extubate. Because of the high sedation, he has chronic insomnia, tiredness, chest pains, shortness of breath on minimal exertion, persistent sore throat.

We don't know the long term effect of covid yet fully - we know it can cause heart problems in a significant amount of people, even young. But I know many who contracted covid and had mild-to-moderate symptoms yet have debilitating symptoms from chest pains, shortness of breath, chronic cough, vertigo, depression, rashes with little improvement from traditional medication regimens that we use to treat aforementioned symptoms.

And we don't know the even long term sequelae of this virus - as mentioned we know other viruses can have significant long term effects such as cancer (e.g. HPV), irreversible neurological disease (e.g. SSPE from measles, multiple sclerosis from EBV), chronic pain (post-herpetic neuralgia from varicella zoster virus).

Bottom line, if you contract covid you probably will be fine, but there is a significant chance that you won't be.

I don't know when I'll get the vaccine but I'd do everything I can do get it personally.
If i'm not mistaken, there isn't much info on preventing these effects you mention right?

As I understand it the vaccine has been proven effective at preventing death. Do we know the effectiveness of preventing any of these other potential long term issues?
 

TheReligion

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Great to see the UK leading the way with this. Nice to have some positive news in time for the new year.
 

Wolverine

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If i'm not mistaken, there isn't much info on preventing these effects you mention right?

As I understand it the vaccine has been proven effective at preventing death. Do we know the effectiveness of preventing any of these other potential long term issues?
Not just preventing death but preventing severe symptoms and hospitalisation
Edit: In addition the oxford vaccine has evidence of preventing transmission as well, evidenced by lower transmission rate, even asymptomatic infection in the vaccine arm
 

Zlatan 7

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To protect those who are at risk who might catch it from you. Not everybody can be vaccinated, and older people generally don't respond as well to vaccines anyway. The sooner everybody is vaccinated the sooner life gets back to normal.

Anyway, you wont be asked to take it until we know for sure it prevents transmission and we know much more about the longer term side effects.
But this is wrong isn’t it? You’d still carry the virus!

am I wrong here or is everyone who is saying to protect others and create herd immunity wrong?

quite worrying if people think they’re getting the vaccine to protect others if it doesn’t actually protect others and they can still catch it off you. Cases are going to rise massively if everyone is walking around thinking they can’t pass it on
 

Vitro

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If i'm not mistaken, there isn't much info on preventing these effects you mention right?

As I understand it the vaccine has been proven effective at preventing death. Do we know the effectiveness of preventing any of these other potential long term issues?
It’s effective at preventing symptomatic infection; death wasn’t the end point of the trial, symptoms of Covid-19 followed by a positive test were. This won’t detect asymptomatic cases, but long Covid will be much rarer in this group.
 

jojojo

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My partner works for the NHS and has been offered one and is going to turn it down. Which is highly frustrating.

Does she have a point? She is worried about the long term effects? Surely it’s all perfectly sound as it has gone through the appropriate trials and been in the works off the back of years of SARS work.
Worrying isn't always a rational thing. She may feel that being part of the first group is like being in a clinical trial but without the support. Personally, I doubt that will happen - these early users will be watched like hawks.

If it's the ten months v ten years idea then I don't take that one as seriously as some people do - most of those years are spent on pause, waiting for the next batch of funds, or the next hundred trial volunteers. Most actual complications/side effects are revealed soon after the vaccination.

What you can't see in trials are the rarities, the ones that happen 1:50000 cases etc - where some combination of genetics, pre-existing conditions, medications etc could mean some people react differently. They could monitor the current trial groups for the next ten years and they still won't see those - or for the next thirty if you want to see the affect on children born post-vaccination.

Personally, I can't do the next ten years locked in, so I'm in one of the clinical trials to try and help push the process along. We all have to decide where to draw the line.
 

Suv666

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I envy you guys in the UK. We in India will get the vaccine god knows when.

It'll be fecking funny watching people actively decline the vaccine. Dumbfecks.
First world problems init.
 

Pagh Wraith

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Great news that should bring us back some normality. I'm not planning to get vaccinated but probably would if I had to for the purpose of travelling although I don't think countries are going to push for that, at least I hope not. That seems to be the view of most of my friends and people around me I've talked to.
 

Berbasbullet

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Worrying isn't always a rational thing. She may feel that being part of the first group is like being in a clinical trial but without the support. Personally, I doubt that will happen - these early users will be watched like hawks.

If it's the ten months v ten years idea then I don't take that one as seriously as some people do - most of those years are spent on pause, waiting for the next batch of funds, or the next hundred trial volunteers. Most actual complications/side effects are revealed soon after the vaccination.

What you can't see in trials are the rarities, the ones that happen 1:50000 cases etc - where some combination of genetics, pre-existing conditions, medications etc could mean some people react differently. They could monitor the current trial groups for the next ten years and they still won't see those - or for the next thirty if you want to see the affect on children born post-vaccination.

Personally, I can't do the next ten years locked in, so I'm in one of the clinical trials to try and help push the process along. We all have to decide where to draw the line.
Thanks for this, will try and use some of this to put her at ease, I completely understand why she feels the way she does! Like you said she probably feels like she’s the first one on the front line.
 

bsCallout

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Not just preventing death but preventing severe symptoms and hospitalisation
Edit: In addition the oxford vaccine has evidence of preventing transmission as well, evidenced by lower transmission rate, even asymptomatic infection in the vaccine arm
Amazing. Sign me up.
 

Neo_Mufc

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This is the best news I have seen this whole year :drool:. How did we get to this position so quick? Early in the year, I was thought to believe that it was near enough impossible to have a vaccine that would be tested sufficiently that it could be rolled out now.

So once people have the vaccine what are the main things we will be looking at to give us an idea of how effective it is?
 

Pogue Mahone

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It’s effective at preventing symptomatic infection; death wasn’t the end point of the trial, symptoms of Covid-19 followed by a positive test were. This won’t detect asymptomatic cases, but long Covid will be much rarer in this group.
Long covid will be completely nonexistent in the asymptomatic group. If you don’t get any symptoms to begin with then you can have persistent, long-term symptoms (which is basically what “long covid” is).
 

2cents

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Can someone explain to me why you would take the vaccine if you were under 40, assuming everyone that is over 40 and also those who are compromised do so?
Apart from everything already mentioned, it may be mandatory for travel to certain countries in the coming years.
 

VP89

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My partner works for the NHS and has been offered one and is going to turn it down. Which is highly frustrating.

Does she have a point? She is worried about the long term effects? Surely it’s all perfectly sound as it has gone through the appropriate trials and been in the works off the back of years of SARS work.
My wife is doing the same I am happy about her caution. I am worried this vaccine may be rush, and obviously hope to be wrong.
 

djembatheking

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Not just preventing death but preventing severe symptoms and hospitalisation
Edit: In addition the oxford vaccine has evidence of preventing transmission as well, evidenced by lower transmission rate, even asymptomatic infection in the vaccine arm
If you have this first vaccine will you be ok to have the Oxford one when it becomes available as well as that sounds fantastic preventing transmission to others .
 

Berbasbullet

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My wife is doing the same I am happy about her caution. I am worried this vaccine may be rush, and obviously hope to be wrong.
I understand why people feel that way, but as the poster I quoted before said it doesn’t seem to have been rushed at all? I am happy to be corrected but I am under the impression it has essentially been pushed to the front of the queue and has the funding needed to develop quicker, it’s off the back of years of research and had the same amount of trials others have had. They will constantly monitor it and never stop researching into its effects.

I understand why people feel this way as I think on some level I do too! But I’m not even sure why.
 

Libano

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With health service staff being vaccinated first it will be interesting to see what the vaccine acceptance rate in the industry is. These people know a thing or two about vaccines.
 

RobinLFC

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My wife is doing the same I am happy about her caution. I am worried this vaccine may be rush, and obviously hope to be wrong.
The companies in question have nothing to gain by rolling out an unsafe vaccine, short-term profits are no good when you're going bankrupt in the long run because of a bad vaccine.

Neither do instances like the CDC or EMA, why would they put their reputation on the line? They have nothing to gain by giving out a false positive judgment.
 

Wolverine

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If you have this first vaccine will you be ok to have the Oxford one when it becomes available as well as that sounds fantastic preventing transmission to others .
Nah I think two doses from one vaccine will be the aim
To be honest I think this Pfizer vaccine will be given to the elderly, care home staff and residents plus some frontline clinical staff which will run through most of January to February probably for two doses.
By which time the Oxford vaccine will hopefully get the regulatory approval, maybe Moderna as well. But we'll have established proper infrastructure hopefully to roll things out. Will be a massive challenge though, vaccination centres need army recruiting and volunteers from clinical staff. I'd gladly offer my time to administer it for free.
Will be interesting if all three are approved, which is the chosen one that is given en-masse. Oxford will the easiest logistically and cheapest
 

djembatheking

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Nah I think two doses from one vaccine will be the aim
To be honest I think this Pfizer vaccine will be given to the elderly, care home staff and residents plus some frontline clinical staff which will run through most of January to February probably for two doses.
By which time the Oxford vaccine will hopefully get the regulatory approval, maybe Moderna as well. But we'll have established proper infrastructure hopefully to roll things out. Will be a massive challenge though, vaccination centres need army recruiting and volunteers from clinical staff. I'd gladly offer my time to administer it for free.
Will be interesting if all three are approved, which is the chosen one that is given en-masse. Oxford will the easiest logistically and cheapest
Thanks , Oxford sounds the best if it prevents transmission too, it would be good to know you can`t infect someone elderly.
 

Ayush_reddevil

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I know so many of my colleagues in the NHS who are actually saying right now that they won't take it which is weird considering we always criticise people who don't other vaccines. Unfortunately it's the age of misinformation and somehow people have started to believe that NHS is being used as guinea pigs which is an utterly ridiculous way to think about it
 

djembatheking

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Nope. UK seems to have got there ahead of everyone else. I’d love to know how/why.
Yep, I hope we`ve got it right and haven`t jumped the gun. I find it very strange that no one else is going for it especially the US or Belgium as they developed it didn`t they?
 

Pogue Mahone

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Yep, I hope we`ve got it right and haven`t jumped the gun. I find it very strange that no one else is going for it especially the US or Belgium as they developed it didn`t they?
Belgium (and all other EU countries) are waiting for the centralised regulator, the EMEA, to give a license for all EU countries simultaneously. Usually the UK would do the same. You have to wonder if there’s some Brexit-related posturing in beating the EU to the punch!
 

Maluco

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Long covid will be completely nonexistent in the asymptomatic group. If you don’t get any symptoms to begin with then you can have persistent, long-term symptoms (which is basically what “long covid” is).
I don’t think this is true. I understand it will be a small minority, but it is possible to have asymptomatic infection with the live virus and suffer effects at a later date.

My cousin had no symptoms initially, but they are now linking her lung problems to a previous undiagnosed asymptomatic case of Covid.
 

Wolverine

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Thanks , Oxford sounds the best if it prevents transmission too, it would be good to know you can`t infect someone elderly.
The other two probably do as well, we'll know for sure more with bigger sample sizes once roll out happens
But main thing is that its safe, effective in a clinically significant way (preventing severe disease across all age groups)
 

djembatheking

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Belgium (and all other EU countries) are waiting for the centralised regulator, the EMEA, to give a license for all EU countries simultaneously. Usually the UK would do the same. You have to wonder if there’s some Brexit-related posturing in beating the EU to the punch!
You may have a point there.
 

Virgil

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Belgium (and all other EU countries) are waiting for the centralised regulator, the EMEA, to give a license for all EU countries simultaneously. Usually the UK would do the same. You have to wonder if there’s some Brexit-related posturing in beating the EU to the punch!
Oh nice one. Yes let’s speculate that the MHRA has approved it to score political points. How churlish can you get.
 

Pogue Mahone

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Oh nice one. Yes let’s speculate that the MHRA has approved it to score political points. How churlish can you get.
Dry your eyes. Anyway, turns out this has already been discussed. Hancock tried to claim that Brexit sped the process up but the MHRA pointed out that the relevant legislation has nothing to do with Brexit.
 

Wolverine

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I don’t think this is true. I understand it will be a small minority, but it is possible to have asymptomatic infection with the live virus and suffer effects at a later date.

My cousin had no symptoms initially, but they are now linking her lung problems to a previous undiagnosed asymptomatic case of Covid.
Good research is sparse I think but King's College studied the covid symptom study app and found this.
https://www.kcl.ac.uk/news/study-identifies-those-most-risk-long-covid
older people, women and those with a greater number of different symptoms in the first week of their illness were more likely to develop long COVID.
Being overweight and asthmatic also increased risk
 

jojojo

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Nope. UK seems to have got there ahead of everyone else. I’d love to know how/why.
Because there's a batch of stuff with the UK's name on it sitting in Belgium.

Pfizer only sent through their EMEA approval request this week - basically I think because they aren't allocating much stuff to the EU pre-Christmas. The MHRC request is a couple of weeks older.

Yep, I hope we`ve got it right and haven`t jumped the gun. I find it very strange that no one else is going for it especially the US or Belgium as they developed it didn`t they?
The US review meeting is scheduled for next week. I believe it's a less centralised group and that it's also examining the manufacturing process as it scales up to mass production as well as the batch production used to create the early shipment quantity. Whether that justifies the respective timelines, I don't know.
 

Pogue Mahone

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Because there's a batch of stuff with the UK's name on it sitting in Belgium.

Pfizer only sent through their EMEA approval request this week - basically I think because they aren't allocating much stuff to the EU pre-Christmas. The MHRC request is a couple of weeks older.


The US review meeting is scheduled for next week. I believe it's a less centralised group and that it's also examining the manufacturing process as it scales up to mass production as well as the batch production used to create the early shipment quantity. Whether that justifies the respective timelines, I don't know.
Are you sure about that? First time I’ve ever heard of license application being linked to manufacturing timelines. They’ve nothing to lose with getting a license if they don’t have drug to supply but it’s a huge risk to delay the application - for any reason at all - as the regulators could ask unexpected questions which push out the approval timeline by weeks/months.

Much more likely that the various regulators have different expectations re the content of the application/review process. I’m sure Pfizer want this approved as quick as humanly possible, in every major territory (might stall in smaller territories if they haven’t the regulatory resources to spare)
 

Wolverine

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Dry your eyes. Anyway, turns out this has already been discussed. Hancock tried to claim that Brexit sped the process up but the MHRA pointed out that the relevant legislation has nothing to do with Brexit.
I think its more about how the UK has fecked things up with the pandemic with high number of deaths, cases, unpopular tier system in addition to scandals with provision of services and probably corrupt profiteering.

Think they might have done their best in that regard to speed things up to give some good news and take some of the heat off.

What might make things interesting is if another comparable regulator in EU or elsewhere, for whatever reason, declines or postpones approval of the pfizer vaccine or other vaccine that might be approved here in terms of how that story will be portrayed in terms of confidence in the vaccines
 

jojojo

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Are you sure about that? First time I’ve ever heard of license application being linked to manufacturing timelines. They’ve nothing to lose with getting a license if they don’t have drug to supply but it’s a huge risk to delay the application - for any reason at all - as the regulators could ask unexpected questions which push out the approval timeline by weeks/months.

Much more likely that the various regulators have different expectations re the content of the application/review process. I’m sure Pfizer want this approved as quick as humanly possible, in every major territory (might stall in smaller territories if they haven’t the regulatory resources to spare)
I assume that they prioritised the paperwork for the US and the UK authorities. I'm not sure why EMA needed a different set but certainly the formal application for final review only went in yesterday.
https://www.ema.europa.eu/en/news/e...-authorisation-covid-19-mrna-vaccine-bnt162b2

The US one I think was submitted at the same time as the UK application (20th November). So either the MHRA are faster than the FDA (possible) or the FDA have more material to analyse. I believe they include manufacturing process/QC in their emergency approval application - so not so much about the manufacturing timeline more about manufacturing sites and how batches get certified. Not usually an issue for emergency use applicants (who carry on making trial size batches) but the scale of this is very different to normal.
 

Fluctuation0161

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My partner works for the NHS and has been offered one and is going to turn it down. Which is highly frustrating.

Does she have a point? She is worried about the long term effects? Surely it’s all perfectly sound as it has gone through the appropriate trials and been in the works off the back of years of SARS work.
I think a proportion of medial staff, although happy for the development, are concerned about being the "guinea pigs".

The person administering the vaccine has to observe the subject for 15 minutes after injection and be trained to identify various adverse effects. Which some may interpret as then being extra safe, others may wonder just why this is required for this particular vaccine.

Ultimately it should be down to individual choice.