The Virgin League Draft - Enigma_87 vs. Edgar Allan Pillow (GROUP C)

With players in their 3 year career peak, who would win?


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Enigma_87......................................................................................................................Edgar Allan Pillow
..........VS...........



Team Enigma_87 (S. Mané dropped for J. M. Pepe)

Formation: 4-2-3-1
Style: direct, intensive, try to limit the opposition time on the ball, close spaces in the middle, try to recoup the ball and find the shortest path to goal

Defence:

A flat back four with Tresor/Kompany operating in the heart of defence. Tresor was a cultured CB, who also was very good on the ball, but possessed the stopperish frame - strong as an ox and great in the air too. Kompany is a bit more familiar face and was for a short time one of the best CB in Premier League and probably in the world. Pessotto will be a balanced full back on the side providing defensive cover and stability at the back, whereas Maicon will bomb forward stretching up the play on the right and actively participating in the attacking phase.

Midfield:
Pirri
and Vidal are both complete midfielders that excel when it comes to work rate, physical presence but also ability to take control in the middle of the park. They will operate just off Rivellino who is our main playmaker linking up midfield with attack. Thomas Muller will be in his raumdeuter role - operating between the lines with his incredible movement, but also providing numbers in the middle.

Attack:
Leading the attack is one of Brazil's best - Careca, who is the complete center forward. Brilliant in the link up, great in the air and also fox in the box when given the opportunity to score. Pepe is Santos legend, who scored more than 400 goals throughout his career and formed a lethal partnership with Pele. He had a cannon of a shot and his ability to dribble past his opponents will bring a lot of flair to the team, whilst Muller's ghost movement and selfless attitude brings balance to the attack. Rivellino will pull the strings from the middle being in his zone and as a focal point of the team.

Overview:

Tresor/Kompany as CB pair
- obviously Cole/Yorke is class partnership, but IMO we have both the quality and also the athleticism both on the ground and in the air to counter the deadly combo. Our CB pair is well equipped with dealing with the danger whilst it receives a lot of protection from Pirri and Vidal, being a great defensive presence when off the ball.

Midfield superiority: we definitely have an edge in the middle of the park. Pirri and Vidal were midfield generals of their era, and one of the very best in both phases during their time(Vidal was the greatest thing since sliced bread if we believe the transfer thread at the time). Both are aided by Rivellino's industrious mentality and the ever buzzing Muller on the right.

Careca: as mentioned he was the complete forward and his agility will prove to be a big headache for Adams/McNeill who are a bit similar in their ability. In the same time Ronnie Simpson had a really small frame and crosses in the 6 yards box might prove to be decisive, considering Careca also had a top notch leap and ability in the air. He might have also trouble keeping away the cannons outside the box that most likely Rivellino and Pepe would provide as a threat.



Team Edgar Allan Pillow (D. Yorke / A. Cole dropped for M. Le Tissier)

Formation:

Good ol' 4-4-2.

Defence:

Ronnie Simpson kept the Lisbon Lions all the way to their success. With synergy of having McNeill ahead of him, he'll be the final guardian of the goal. Balanced fullbacks in Denis Irwin and Sandy Jardine, solid defensively and able to provide attacking contribution too. Billy McNeill was captain and anchor for Lisbon Lions and Tony Adams was a standout defender for the Arsenal. Between them they'll provide a solid base for the team to be built on.

Midfield:

Gilberto Silva , (The Invisible Wall") makes an appearance providing the defensive shield that shot the gunners to their Invincible season. Stellar for both club (won the CL) and country (won the WC), he'll deny opponents creative forwards/AMs time and space with added advantage of him being no slouch on the ball. Playing with him is the subtle genius of Bobby Murdoch whose play making from the middle was one of the biggest contributors to Lisbon Lions success. His passing was said to be so perfect that one of his colleagues remarked with no real exaggeration that "he could land the ball on a thrupenny bit". Their skills complement each other.

David Beckham and Robert Pires, classic wingers who were brilliant for their respective team. Beckham's passing/crossing and Pires's play making in final third will complement each other well. Not just sticking by the sideline, they'll drift in and provide additional manpower to the middle too.

Attack:

We have a new dynamic duo taking the field for this game. Matt Le Tisser ("Le God") takes his place as a creative supporting striker playing in the hole. His creativity, vision and more importantly...his ability to work the ball in tight spaces will ensure a consistent connectivity with the midfield and constant supply of goals for the striker. Alan Shearer one of the greatest CFs in history of PL spearheads the attack. Typical English CF, physically strong and with fantastic heading ability, he'll blend well with Le God in a one-two punch. On the receiving end of a Beckham cross to head in or hold the ball for Le God to score, it's very complimentary and lethal partnership

Why I'll win:

+ Players proven in the tactics and formation.
+ Lots of synergy with players possessing complementary skills.
+ Workrate, creativity abundant all through and won't need any specific person to pull strings. Attack can originate from anywhere and so hard to defend against.


Good luck @Enigma_87 @Edgar Allan Pillow!
 

Edgar Allan Pillow

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Goo team from Enigma, tactically set up very good. Though, I have some reservations on player fit.

Pirri excelled as a box-to-box CM and then as sweeper. This is like playing Matthaus or even Keane to play holding (or even as deepest defending CM). He can do a job there, but not really playing to his strengths. Plus Pirri/Vidal are too similar in playing style to actually complement each other. Not dysfunctional, but not optimal either. If you look at matchups I believe Gilberto will have a better handle on Rivelino than Pirri with Le Tissier and that is a big advantage for me.

I think Pires will have some joy vs Maicon, esp exploiting the space when he overlaps.

Here and there, but it all adds up.
 

Enigma_87

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@Enigma_87 Are both Pirri and Vidal playing B2B?
They will play in double pivot roles. Obviously it's a bit of a term that is hated on the caf :D, but in general Pirri will be the more defensive one, minding Le Tissier and will drop to the holder position when we're off the ball.

Obviously Pirri at his peak offered a lot going forward and Vidal can drop back to cover for him when he goes on a run, but generally I trust Pirri to be the more tactically disciplined in this game.
 

Enigma_87

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Goo team from Enigma, tactically set up very good. Though, I have some reservations on player fit.

Pirri excelled as a box-to-box CM and then as sweeper. This is like playing Matthaus or even Keane to play holding (or even as deepest defending CM). He can do a job there, but not really playing to his strengths. Plus Pirri/Vidal are too similar in playing style to actually complement each other. Not dysfunctional, but not optimal either. If you look at matchups I believe Gilberto will have a better handle on Rivelino than Pirri with Le Tissier and that is a big advantage for me.

I think Pires will have some joy vs Maicon, esp exploiting the space when he overlaps.

Here and there, but it all adds up.
Yeah I really like your team too, so nothing much to criticize.

To me it boils down to individual quality and to me we have more in midfield and probably ability to break you down.

For Pirri - I think we had the same conversation a while back, but Pirri was DM by trade. Yes he had great numbers going forward at his peak, but it's like saying Hierro at DM doesn't play to his strengths which is completely false. Pirri was one of the most tactically astute players of his era, captain of the side and played in pretty much every position in the middle of the park (he was even a backup striker on occasion).

Also the term sweeper is a bit misleading. He was played as a libero, not a sweeper - in a sense that he was called the Spanish Beckenbauer and excelled in both phases of the game.

In terms of midfield battle Le Tissier provides zero work rate as his ability was recognized when he was on the ball and on his day he was a fantastic player to watch, but in terms of adding to the numbers of the midfield battle he's as close to a passenger you can get. He needs the team to carry him and maximize his strengths.

Pirri on Le Tissier is a no brainer. I'm not sure how you came to the conclusion that Le Tissier will win that battle considering both the quality Pirri offers in the defensive phase and also the agility to close him down quickly.

I rate Silva high, but Rivellino obviously higher and again can't agree that it's a matchup that goes in your favor. Especially if you consider Muller ghosting between the lines if you plan to man mark Rivellino.

In terms of attack vs defence I'd say Tresor / Kompany are as good fits as it gets to counter Shearer strengths, whilst Careca to me would cause all sorts of problems to your CB's stilistically.
 

Zlatan 7

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I like that team Edgar. I’ll wait on voting as I want to read the thread and don’t know a few players listed
 

Edgar Allan Pillow

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@Enigma_87 Have to disagree on Pirri. Since you've playing him in midfield, I'll assume you have his younger CM incarnation...where he was a goalscoring CM, as in quite attacking, ability to bring the ball up from the deep, decent passing range etc. That is what made his a star, not his defensive nous. Playing the last man deep isn't really his forte or what made him the special player he was. In fact as a CM, I rate him above Vidal, and would have liked to see him do a proper CM role a more defensive minded CM beside him.

Le Tissier may not have the workrate, but what made him special was his ability to work the ball under tight close quarters situations and Pirri ain't going to cover that front. It really is not the type of player he is. A couple of one touches and a feint and he'll be away from PIrri just like that. The sweeper version of Pirri might have been a better fit vs Le Tissier.

.

Plus the team is especially well suited to play to Le Tissier's strengths. You have Murdoch, Pires and Beckham to carry and feed him the ball. Plus fullbacks who can cross niceley too. PLus a classic CF in Shearer who'll hold defenders and open spaces. It's a perfect platform for him to operate.
 

Enigma_87

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@Enigma_87 Have to disagree on Pirri. Since you've playing him in midfield, I'll assume you have his younger CM incarnation...where he was a goalscoring CM, as in quite attacking, ability to bring the ball up from the deep, decent passing range etc. That is what made his a star, not his defensive nous. Playing the last man deep isn't really his forte or what made him the special player he was. In fact as a CM, I rate him above Vidal, and would have liked to see him do a proper CM role a more defensive minded CM beside him.

Le Tissier may not have the workrate, but what made him special was his ability to work the ball under tight close quarters situations and Pirri ain't going to cover that front. It really is not the type of player he is. A couple of one touches and a feint and he'll be away from PIrri just like that. The sweeper version of Pirri might have been a better fit vs Le Tissier.

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Plus the team is especially well suited to play to Le Tissier's strengths. You have Murdoch, Pires and Beckham to carry and feed him the ball. Plus fullbacks who can cross niceley too. PLus a classic CF in Shearer who'll hold defenders and open spaces. It's a perfect platform for him to operate.

Exactly how much do you know about Pirri and from where do you base those observations from? Having a good goalscoring record means he can't play a defensive B2B like he does in this game?

Pirri's main asset was his incredible stamina, tactical discipline, clean tackling ability and you are telling me that he didn't have defensive nous? :lol:

You do know that he played as a AMC and even a forward in his early Madrid days in the early 60's and began to move further and further back in the late 60's, whilst in the early 70's till the end of his career he played as a libero, not a sweeper and occupied most of the time exactly the DM position not an attacking CM you paint him to be?
 

Edgar Allan Pillow

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Exactly how much do you know about Pirri and from where do you base those observations from? Having a good goalscoring record means he can't play a defensive B2B like he does in this game?

Pirri's main asset was his incredible stamina, tactical discipline, clean tackling ability and you are telling me that he didn't have defensive nous? :lol:

You do know that he played as a AMC and even a forward in his early Madrid days in the early 60's and began to move further and further back in the late 60's, whilst in the early 70's till the end of his career he played as a libero, not a sweeper and occupied most of the time exactly the DM position not an attacking CM you paint him to be?
Never said it was a misfit, but just that it's not his peak role. I had Pirri in earlier drafts and ave looked at him in detail. Joga also posted a video on his defensive performance in a more recent thread. He certainly can do a job there, but he's better used as a box-to-box driving the ball up.

With Le Tissier hanging up there waiting for the ball, which he'll get via Pires/Beckham/Murdoch, it is my opinion that a better holding DM would be a better fit than Pirri.
 

Enigma_87

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@Edgar Allan Pillow

check some of the interceptions and tackles. Not bad for someone who doesn't have much of a defensive nous. :)

you can check some of these highlights, compilation made by @Pat_Mustard and what position he occupied in 75-76 where he was supposed to be a "sweeper". He played as a libero from 73' on and 68/69,69/70 seasons he played 43 games in La Liga scoring 6 goals in his physical peak.

If I'm to put him in his best years 69-75 his position would either be the DM (be it libero or whatever you call it between the defence and midfield), or the defensive minded B2B who went on occasional run forward in space.

His forte was never an attacking B2B like for example Coluna, far from it and it is disingenuous to label him as such purely going by the scoring charts.
 

Enigma_87

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Never said it was a misfit, but just that it's not his peak role. I had Pirri in earlier drafts and ave looked at him in detail. Joga also posted a video on his defensive performance in a more recent thread. He certainly can do a job there, but he's better used as a box-to-box driving the ball up.

With Le Tissier hanging up there waiting for the ball, which he'll get via Pires/Beckham/Murdoch, it is my opinion that a better holding DM would be a better fit than Pirri.
His peak role is closer to defensive one than to attacking one. Even as a CM he always started from deep rather than in the attacking third. His attacking output was always due to surprising the opposition coming from deep and also him being used as an attacker from time to time. Redondo is a DM and he carried the ball forward a lot, does that mean it wasn't his peak role?

He's not played as a holder here, and with Le Tissier I don't really need to man mark him, or shadow him throughout the game. There are different types of DM's and not all are Makelele's. To me Pirri will always be either a defensive minded B2B or a DM/Libero, whatever you call him, but his position on the team sheet will be closer to a DM to any other position out there. I won't use him next to a holder, because he never played alongside one at Real and to me it won't be the 'peak Pirri', because it is not at all how he functioned in that Real team.

It's either 4-2-3-1 or a 4-3-3/5-3-2 with him as a DM or libero, whatever you prefer.

Edit: He was called the Spanish Beckenbauer for a reason and as you imagine having Makelele as a holder next to Beckenbauer would be an eye sore, which is IMO the same with Pirri next to a holder.

Tbh I'm really surprised that Pirri is painted as an attacking minded B2B. Maybe in his first couple of seasons when he was younger and he was stuck up top even, but at his peak is a very odd statement to put it mildly.
 
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Joga Bonito

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Never said it was a misfit, but just that it's not his peak role. I had Pirri in earlier drafts and ave looked at him in detail. Joga also posted a video on his defensive performance in a more recent thread. He certainly can do a job there, but he's better used as a box-to-box driving the ball up.

Don't really have an issue with him as a DM myself.

Really like the look of both the sides here.

Beckham-Shearer looks promising and Careca could prove to be too much for Adams and McNeill to handle.
 

GodShaveTheQueen

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I'm happy to see what others think about his position, but to me this is how I always envision playing him in drafts. Either a defensive B2B or a DM/Libero.
Attacking B2B when physically strong and young in his peak. DM/Libero as he aged. Both version excellent but the former obviously the better but the latter not exactly mediocre.
 

Enigma_87

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Attacking B2B when physically strong and young in his peak. DM/Libero as he aged. Both version excellent but the former obviously the better but the latter not exactly mediocre.
Depends on when you consider his peak. To me it’s 70-75 when he was 25-30 years old and he began playing more prominently as a libero from 73 on. If we look at strictly his goal output 68-70, it wasn’t particularly high either, compared to even 33 years old Pirri playing like a libero.
From what I’ve seen (mostly 70 on) he definitely started from deeper role and played deeper where you’d see him as a DM or deeper CM and considering he got his name as the Spanish Beckenbauer and mainly throughout his feats in the 70s I’d say that’s his so called peak, compared to his early 20s.

also seeing his game I won’t put him in the attacking Deco at Porto role for example because I just don’t see that getting the best of him.
 

Physiocrat

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It's either 4-2-3-1 or a 4-3-3/5-3-2 with him as a DM or libero, whatever you prefer.

Edit: He was called the Spanish Beckenbauer for a reason and as you imagine having Makelele as a holder next to Beckenbauer would be an eye sore, which is IMO the same with Pirri next to a holder.
I see the DM role as very different from the libero especially when the player was renowned for bursting forwards. In a 4231 with Der Kaiser I would him alongside more of a DM type, same goes for Sammer. So in this draft Cerezo next to Pirri would be awesome.
 

Enigma_87

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I see the DM role as very different from the libero especially when the player was renowned for bursting forwards. In a 4231 with Der Kaiser I would him alongside more of a DM type, same goes for Sammer. So in this draft Cerezo next to Pirri would be awesome.
Tbh Cerezo is not your typical DM either. He’s as good as B2B as he is as DM.

I wouldn’t really criticise either of them in both positions as they have shown their capabilities in playing both as a DM and B2B CM.

it’s not like they are wasted either - both have the game to play DM and the engine to play as B2B.

As for Beckenbauer I wouldn’t play him alongside holder even in his younger reincarnation. I’d play him alongside another B2B like here. Probably different views and all :)
 

Theon

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This is really close.

Don’t mind Pirri there at all personally and from the video Enigma posted he looks a sound fit. There’s lots to like about Edgar’s team though, Shearer was unbelievable at his peak and I probably even prefer this front two to that of the first round (though saying that Yorke and Shearer looks damn good, albeit the formers peak was a bit short).
 

Enigma_87

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@Enigma_87 Any vids on Pepe? I know very little about him

This is probably the best compilation of him out there.

I did some research as I’ve only read stories about him and watched some of the full games prior to picking him (some are on YouTube considering footballia is down ).

As a player I though he was a pretty good finisher, quick off the mark and a bit like Bale used his speed and directness to blaze through his opponents.
Likes the left wing seems pretty one footed, although uses occasionally his right to dribble and change direction.

Cannon of a shot also, loved to blast it around the box and usually hit the target.

Likes to either cross it out wide or cut in and shoot with his left. Although his link up play also seemed good from what I saw.
Would be a modern day wing forward, he often compared himself to Neymar(considering he also started at Santos) and I'd say it's an apt comparison, but obviously different players.

 

Pat_Mustard

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Would appreciate some comments lads. What is lacking?
Agree with Comrade Beam here. You've put together a good, balanced team, and like your first match the only small flaw I really see is the two right footers on your left wing. Shearer had a peach of a cross in his locker but I only ever remember him swinging them in on his right foot from the right wing, so your left side seems lacking in terms of pitch-stretching width, which isn't ideal in a 4-4-2. Beckham-Shearer looks a great route to goal for you and as decent as they were physically I wouldn't rule out Shearer bullying Kompany and Tresor in those physical duels and winning the match for you. Enigma is just particularly strong in midfield though and should gain a decisive foothold there.

Pirri debate was interesting although I don't feel we've really reached a thorough understanding of him as a player and there mightn't be enough matches available to really do so. Edge towards @Enigma_87 's stance here, largely because Vidal is such a capable partner in terms of alternating who is covering and who is bursting forward. I guess if I was building around Pirri I'd either have him as an uber-adventurous libero or overtly have him as the more attacking B2B alongside someone like Gilberto, but Pirri seems to have been superbly versatile, didn't need to be built around anyway, and looks good here with Vidal partnering him.

Not strictly relevant to either the Prri debate or the match itself but

This is like playing Matthaus or even Keane to play holding (or even as deepest defending CM). He can do a job there, but not really playing to his strengths.
isn't that precisely what Keane did during his peak? Keane/Matthaus is probably my own wet dream 4-4-2 central midfield duo incidentally.
 

Edgar Allan Pillow

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isn't that precisely what Keane did during his peak? Keane/Matthaus is probably my own wet dream 4-4-2 central midfield duo incidentally.
In a 2 man midfield, it'd be perfect. Like Keane, Pirri was in a 2 man midfield team (4-2-4 though). Still a proper 2 way player. Here he's holding the field with Vidal being the more aggressive one. Putting him in a base of a 3 man midfield seemed a bit underutilized to me. I'd have the same comment if we had Keane instead of Pirri in this match itself. Would be gross underutilizing Keane.
 
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Gio

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Would appreciate some comments lads. What is lacking?
The positive feedback from the first game stands in terms of balance, strong flanks and complementary partnerships. The biggest at-first-glance difference is the quality between Rivelino and Le Tissier as he’s quite far down the 9.5/10 list for this pool, whereas the Brazilian is right at the top. Probably limited by the available support strikers in a British and Irish theme.
 

Šjor Bepo

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Le Tissier really drags this beautiful team down, lovely to watch but nowhere near good enough to play at this level and its a shame cause you had a lot of options for that behind the striker role that fit the theme and went unpicked - Gray, Zola, RVP, Sheringham etc.
 

Edgar Allan Pillow

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Le Tissier really drags this beautiful team down, lovely to watch but nowhere near good enough to play at this level and its a shame cause you had a lot of options for that behind the striker role that fit the theme and went unpicked - Gray, Zola, RVP, Sheringham etc.
I thought Le God was rated well in here. Plus I've never picked him before.Liked what I saw. Anyway lesson learnt.
 

Physiocrat

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I thought Le God was rated well in here. Plus I've never picked him before.Liked what I saw. Anyway lesson learnt.
Le God was quality. The problem was he didn't work too hard and didn't have the best stamina. He has the same problem as Shearer but worse in that he never had the England team built around him so rarely featured.
 

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Le Tissier really drags this beautiful team down, lovely to watch but nowhere near good enough to play at this level and its a shame cause you had a lot of options for that behind the striker role that fit the theme and went unpicked - Gray, Zola, RVP, Sheringham etc.
Zola wasn't available.

I don't have a big problem with the quality of Le Tiss compared to those mentioned above. I think he's a good player, although obviously not on Rivelino's level. Cantona would've been nice.
 

Synco

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Ah feck, missed the deadline. Would have voted for Enigma, but he won anyway. As others said, no issues at all with Edgar's side (although I'm not clued up one some players), it's just that Enigma's team is pretty brilliant.
 

Demyanenko_square_jaw

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Le Tissier workrate issues seem well overstated in general from my perspective, something i was surprised when i had watched him as i knew it was often said. I made a point of looking out for off the ball stuff when watching a lot of his games and while he'll never be called a workhorse, there was little difference between him and Bergkamp, Cantona, Totti, Zola ( older chelsea legend version anyway, not Parma/Napoli) Hagi and plenty of other advanced 10s and second strikers of the late 80s-early 00s that were primariliy creative forces. More than being lethargic it seems to me he just had issues with being marked out of parts of games because opponents knew he was by far the one to stop and he lacked enough pace or natural stamina to consistently be darting away from markers....but Bergkamp, Totti and others had the same issue throughout their career too. Yet like them, you couldn't slip up and let him find space.

You can't play for a team with players the level of 90% of that Southampton side and just stand about and expect the efficiency of the midfield or long kicks from defence to get the ball to you enough to play any part in the game. I found a lot of subtle efficiency and intelligence in his movement around the park. A great premier league player imo.