The Virgin League Draft - harms vs. Šjor Bepo & Gio (GROUP E)

With players in their 3 year career peak, who would win?


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Invictus

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harms................................................................................................................................Šjor Bepo & Gio
..........VS...........



Team harms (M. Reus dropped for R. Prosinečki)

My original write-up got destroyed, so here's a brief version – and then the player profiles as I feel that they didn't get enough credit due to poor representation in the last round. The idea was to pick Netzer and surround him with guys who, I feel, had done enough to become draft regulars, but rarely ever feature. I'm very glad with the final product, I feel that the balance is spot on, defense is brilliant and both midfield and attack are perfectly suited to Netzer's needs.

PLAYER PROFILES

GK – Harald Schumacher.
If he was born in any other country (aside from Italy), he’d be considered as an unquestionable all-time great. Twice Footballer of the Year in Germany, the only keeper to win World Cup Silver Ball, Schumacher had an outstanding career, reaching 2 World Cup finals, winning Euros in 1980 and getting in Euro Team of the Tournament in 1984. Sadly, everyone will remember him because of the infamous Battiston incident.

LB – Ricardo Pavoni. Pavoni’s stature in history of the game had suffered because he had never player in Europe – and in our Westerncentric world it’s hard to be properly appreciated if you had chosen to remain at South America for your entire career. But Pavoni’s credentials are immaculate – 5-times Copa Libertadores winner (obviously a record), and it’s not like his Independiente weren’t tested outside of their comfort zone – in 1973 they had won Intercontinental Cup, beating a great Juventus side. Pavoni was a brilliant defender first and foremost, but he also had 2 distinctive features – his glorious moustache and a fantastic left peg that he used both for crossing and for shooting (he had scored more than 50 club goals).

CB – Walter Samuel. One of my personal favourites. A proper Serie A legend and one of the best defenders of his generation, Samuel was the foundation for both Roma’s latest scudetto and for Inter’s legendary treble (in 2009/10 season he was named Serie A Defender of the Year). Javier Zanetti had said that Samuel was the hardest player he had ever seen, and Il Muro’s («The Wall») aggressiveness makes him a great fit next to elegant Belodedici.

CB – Miodrag Belodedici. Alongside Trésor he’s the best central defender in the draft (excluding Koeman who should be judged on different metrics) and there’s a case to be made for him to be currently the most underrated defender in our little community. He had lead both Steaua and Crvena Zvezda to European Cup wins, both times being not only their best defender, but arguably the most important player overall. Both his performances and credentials are outstanding – but spending peak years of his career in Eastern Europe had significantly hurt his reputation in the eyes of a general football fan.

RB – Dani Carvajal. Alongside Casemiro Carvajal is an overlooked hero of Real Madrid’s European domination. In terms of his consistency and all-round ability he reminds me of Irwin a bit. He had came into that side and managed to both balance the defensive line, compensating for an uber-attacking Marcelo at left back, and also to provide a reliable outlet on the overlap for the likes of Bale. It’s not a coincidence that even such brilliant players like Azpilicueta and Hakimi (on the back of a 20 g+a season) had failed to get a start ahead of him.

DM – Paulo Sousa. An incredible player, whose career was absolutely destroyed by injuries – after the age of 26 he had only once managed to get more than 20 appearances in a single season. And it’s a shame, because at his best Sousa was untouchable, even inviting comparisons to Paulo Roberto Falcão himself – tactically brilliant, aggressive defensive midfielder, but with a bit of extra special ability on the ball, Redondo before Redondo. He was the catalyst for the initial success of Lippi’s Juve – in his first season there, 1994/95, they had one scudetto after 8-year wait and Sousa had received Guerin d’Oro, an award for the best player in the league based on an average performance rating. From then he only got better – and in the next 2 years he’ll win 2 back-to-back Champions League titles with Juve and Dortmund, before his knees had put a premature end to his career at the top level.

B2B – Herbert Wimmer. You don’t really expect much in terms of football ability from a player nicknamed «Iron Lungs» that got famous as Netzer’s water-carrying sidekick for both Mönchengladbach and West Germany… but you would be wrong. Wimmer was a magical player that combined elegance and ball-carrying ability with tenacity and insane energy levels.

AM – Günter Netzer. He should be fairly known around here. For me, the best player in the draft who, at his peak, had directly competed against the likes of Beckenbauer & Müller (in Germany) and Cruyff & Neeskens (in Spain) and never looked out of place. In fact, he had won 2 Bundesliga and 2 La Liga titles outperforming his more glamorous opponents. It’s interesting how much higher he would’ve been rated if he had gotten 2 more points in 1972 Ballon d’Or vote – this award is usually very important for retrospective career evaluation.



LW – Robert Prosinečki. Young prodigy that took the world by storm in the early 90’s, earning a move to Real Madrid and life-long admiration by any fan that was lucky to see him play. Here he is used in a role similar to his role in Crvena Zvezda’s European Cup-winning side, where he had a free role on the left next to a dedicated number 10 in Savicević. What really impressed me is the amount of running he does – on and off the ball. Here he is destroying poor Effenberg in European Cup semi-final:

ST – Hans Krankl. Simply the best goalscorer in the draft (514 official goals). He reminds me of Lewandowski a bit, although he’s even more mobile – Krankl loved to pull wide or to drop deeper when midfield didn’t get him the service that he needed. A proper big-game player as well. His best form came in the late 70’s – he had scored 113 goals in 119 club games between 1976/77 and 1978/79, helping Barcelona on the way to their first major European trophy (UEFA doesn’t count Fairs Cup as one), winning European Golden Shoe, Pichichi and finishing 2nd in 1978 Ballon d’Or vote. He was equally impressive for the national team at the time – his goals against Spain & Sweden saw Austria advance to the second round of 1978 World Cup (finishing higher than Brazil in their group), and his legendary brace against West Germany had stopped the current world champions from reaching a second successive final.

RW – Igor Chislenko. It would’ve been easier to stuck with Reus and, to be fair, I’m not sure if Chislenko was a better player – both were world-class forwards at their peak and both were stopped from reaching an even higher level by injuries. But I want to highlight Chislenko – Soviet players from that era are getting used more and more often on here and he’s probably the last world-class player from that 60’s USSR side that deserves regular draft appearances. He started out as a winger, and was fantastic at it, and later, in 1967, had formed a fantastic partnership with Streltsov for USSR, scoring 10 goals in 13 international games during that calendar year. Chislenko’s pace, movement, shooting and dribbling ability had made him a perfect target for Streltsov’s creative flicks and passes – and I’m sure that he’ll find an even better partner for that in Netzer. Chislenko’s individual credentials are pretty strong as well – 3 great international tournaments, and multiple top-notch performances against the greatest defenders to ever play the game. He was one of the toughest opponents that Giacinto Facchetti has ever had, besting him in all of their encounters against each other and one of his most iconic moments was a brace at Wembley against a World Cup-winning defense with Bobby Moore and Gordan Banks. A few of his compilations can be found in a corresponding thread or just directly at my YouTube channel.



Team Šjor Bepo & Gio (C. Lopez dropped for H. Rahn)

Led by Carlos Mozer who became the defensive bedrock for 3 of the best teams of the 1980s: the world-conquering Flamengo side, as well as serial European Cup finalists Benfica and Marseille. He will be the athletic ball-playing sweeper next to Riccardo Ferri who was a defensive stalwart in Serie A in its hey-day and despite the lofty company was ranked among the top 2-3 central defenders in the league for 3 seasons. Behind him is his colleague for club and country Walter Zenga: their partnership for Inter and Italy was almost inpenetrable in the late 1980s and at the 1990 World Cup. Bernard Dietz returns to the starting XI in recognition of Chislenko's threat where his style -'unrelenting yet fair in 1v1 situations' [Kicker] - and defensive acumen, shown by captaining West Germany to the Euro '80 title from the LCB position, match up well. Supporting on the other flank is the all-rounder Willy Sagnol.

MIDFIELD

The midfield is built around Andrea Pirlo so pivotal as the creative force behind Milan, Juventus and Italy. His Europe and world-beating partnership with Gattuso gains an upgrade in the ultimate midfield dynamo and hound-dog in N'Golo Kante. Bringing goal threat, passing range, ball-carrying and loads of hustle is Paul Gascoigne who was simply unplayable for much of his peak 3-year period.

ATTACK
Nandor Hidegkuti
is the centrepoint of the attack: injecting goals (39 in 69 for Hungary, over 300 in his career), creativity (bazillions of assists), and'intelligence 'fine technique and tactical guile' [Sebes]. Racing from the right is Helmut Rahn whose World-Cup-winning and Hungary-dethroning directness will be an ever-present threat. Surging from the left is Kylian Mbappe whose 3-year peak is starting to look ridiculously stacked (a goals+assists to games ratio of 1:1 and rising in L1 and CL, irrespective of opponent; and a World Cup capped off by that R9-esque demolition of Argentina).

KEY POINTS
  • Strong midfield trio with arguably the most effective deep-lying playmaker and ball-winner in the pool. Kante will be especially important here hassling and harrying Netzer, while Gascoigne offers bundles of energy and defensive work to complement his dangerous bursts forward from midfield.
  • Solid defensive resistance against Harms' attack. Mozer/Ferri pack plenty of quality against Krankl, while Dietz and Sagnol have the pedigree to match up to Chislenko and Reus respectively (see above).
  • Potent front three based around the original false 9 Hidegkuti, flanked by the full-back eviscerating Mpabbe and the powerful Rahn. Mpabbe's speed and trickery will cause Carvajal/Cuccureddu plenty of problems while Rahn has the power and pace to get in behind Pavoni. With Pirlo springing counter attacks and Hidegkuti opening doors, Mpabbe and Rahn should get into dangerous positions.


Good luck @harms @Šjor Bepo @Gio!
 

Šjor Bepo

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good luck @harms , gio will lead the disscussion just wanted to say that this isnt the position nor role he had at Zvezda as he was a central midfielder. He can play the position and the role you gave him though, not sure about the chemistry with that midfield though but will let you debate that with gio. Big props for playing him, insanely underrated player here.
 

harms

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good luck @harms , gio will lead the disscussion just wanted to say that this isnt the position nor role he had at Zvezda as he was a central midfielder. He can play the position and the role you gave him though, not sure about the chemistry with that midfield though but will let you debate that with gio. Big props for playing him, insanely underrated player here.
It's a role that is very different from Chislenko's, but I think that he will be a good fit here, with Pavoni on the overlap. You've obviously seen this and we've even talked about this game but this is my main reference point:

Like all of my teams, it should be quite fluid in general – Chislenko has a habit of appearing on the left from time to time, and Wimmer had a tendency to get on the wings sometimes (more often to the right one, but he has often appeared on the left as well).

An example of Wimmer's natural game (this channel's compilations don't really cover all actions, but they're still quite useful)

By the way, I didn't know that @Joga Bonito did a video on him!
 

harms

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And for those who had missed my Chislenko videos, since he's one of the least known players on the pitch:

And @Šjor Bepo 's video from 1966 World Cup, where he was playing against Facchetti (and scored a screamer)

Sorry for spamming videos :(
 

Joga Bonito

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By the way, I didn't know that @Joga Bonito did a video on him!
Was ages ago but made it to show his ball carrying ability and ease on the flanks for a defensive midfielder. Watching that video in isolation, you could be forgiven for thinking that Wimmer was an advanced midfielder in the mould of an Alan Ball for instance.
 

Edgar Allan Pillow

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longside Trésor he’s the best central defender in the draft (excluding Koeman who should be judged on different metrics) and there’s a case to be made for him to be currently the most underrated defender in our little community.
You rate him above, Mozer and Ferri...but also ahead of Pirri & Perfumo etc? I've come across him in earlier research, but never found anything that would make him a hidden gem. Honestly, I haven't researched him that deeply...will look into him in more detail now.
 

harms

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You rate him above, Mozer and Ferri...but also ahead of Pirri & Perfumo etc? I've come across him in earlier research, but never found anything that would make him a hidden gem. Honestly, I haven't researched him that deeply...will look into him in more detail now.
Yeah. I don't rate Pirri that high as a defender (to be considered one of the standouts of this draft high), his peak for me was quite clearly as a box-to-box midfielder, although he was quite good in other roles as well. Perfumo would be close to the top of my list.

Here's one of Sjor's compilations – although with center backs even such compilations usually aren't enough to fully comprehend their influence, you should just watch a few of Crvena Zvezda's game from that era.

You can see that I've picked him quite early as well, in the 2nd round, before the likes of Pirri, Perfumo and others were picked.

From center backs Koeman, Van Dijk, Aldair, Picchi and Trésor were picked in the 2nd round, and I would put him right at the top of that list next to Trésor with Koeman taken out of the equation (he's a clear standout in that list, but this has little to do with his defensive skill and everything to do with his insane ball-playing ability). Picchi is someone who, alongside Santamaria, has outstanding credentials, but every time I've watched that Inter's defense it looked like a brilliant collective with Facchetti being by far the most impressive individual. He was clearly world-class, but he still lacked a little something compared to all-time greats.
 

Gio

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@harms Apologies for not contributing anything yet beyond the OP. Turns out Monday was a busy day as well.

Few holes to pick in your own side, there's a lot to like with a couple of personal favourites in Belodedici and Prosinecki. @Edgar Allan Pillow I rank the Romanian as high as anyone in the pool defensively. Personally I also put Mozer up there as he made a huge impression on me with his athleticism, agility, telescopic-leg ball-winning ability, salmon-esque leap and quality on the ball.

Chris Waddle said:
A sweeper-cum-centre-half who I played with for three years at Marseille. Exactly as you'd expect from a Brazilian, he was technically out of this world, but if you wanted a fight, he'd fight you. He could lose his head at times, but I've never seen anyone as good in the air. He could have played in any position. A must.
Like Belodedici, Mozer too was hugely influential in the same era when there was a plethora of elite defensive talent in the game. And like Belodedici he had a singular impact on two of the best teams in Europe. Benfica keeping 7 clean sheets out of 8 on their run to a European Cup final 0-0 stalemate with PSV. During his 3 seasons in France, Marseille had their 2 best defensive records of all time in 90/91 and 91/92. Either side of his time at OM they conceded an average extra 10 goals per L1 campaign.

This has been brought up a few times and its completely wide of the mark TBH. Mozer was a superb footballer, certainly the ball-player in the excellent Mozer/Basile Boli duo for Marseille, and regarded as a sweeper here. Chris Waddle includes him in his best XI of former teammates, saying this about him:



He's technically excellent and not only competent on the ball:


but capable of absolute brilliance:


Another goal from early in his career:


I hope your players mistake him for a plodder as you've suggested and allow him time on the ball, as it'll make our transitions all the more effective.

As a side note, I mentioned in the OP that he had a freakishly great leap, and Waddle also alluded to his supremacy in the air:


He's a superb fit defensively in terms of beating Artime to headers as well as a very competent ball player.

Pereyra was a midfielder in his early career, playing in that role for Sao Paulo in this Brazilian championship decider in 1977:


The video is too long for me to avoid botching my attempted GIF-making, but his competence on the ball is there for anyone who fancies sifting through that fairly drab match.
 

Joga Bonito

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From center backs Koeman, Van Dijk, Aldair, Picchi and Trésor were picked in the 2nd round, and I would put him right at the top of that list next to Trésor with Koeman taken out of the equation (he's a clear standout in that list, but this has little to do with his defensive skill and everything to do with his insane ball-playing ability). Picchi is someone who, alongside Santamaria, has outstanding credentials, but every time I've watched that Inter's defense it looked like a brilliant collective with Facchetti being by far the most impressive individual. He was clearly world-class, but he still lacked a little something compared to all-time greats.
I think that is a fair enough appraisal. I'd have Koeman, Tresor and Picchi in that given order as pure individuals, although I'd rate Picchi higher within a certain context*. Haven't really watched Belodedici comprehensively enough to have a balanced enough view of him but he's always impressed me in the games that I've seen.

*From that Inter defense I'd rate Facchetti and Burgnich higher than Picchi as individuals. That being said, both Koeman and Picchi were system players who required the defensive systems to be tailored around them and if done right, they bring much more to the table than what your conventional good-ish defender does though. They could also stick out like sore thumbs if the defensive system is not tactically cohesive to their relative styles. That has to be taken into account when rating these type of CBs too.

Herrera's first two seasons weren't the greatest with Inter finishing 3rd and runners up with Herrera close to the sack - Inter hadn't won the Scudetto in 6 years after all. It was only in the 3rd season with the shifting of Picchi from the RB position into the sweeper role and the restructuring of the defense, that Inter became one of the best sides in the history of the game. There were better individuals than Picchi in that side, and even in the defense alone, but Picchi's role was just as important (if not more) as the rest of them imo.

Like Belodedici, Mozer too was hugely influential in the same era when there was a plethora of elite defensive talent in the game. And like Belodedici he had a singular impact on two of the best teams in Europe.
Agreed. Really caught my eye when I was watching that Marseille side, was quite brilliant aerially.