The Virgin League Draft - Himannv vs. SirScholes (GROUP B)

With players in their 3 year career peak, who would win?


  • Total voters
    11
  • Poll closed .

Invictus

Poster of the Year 2015 & 2018
Staff
Joined
Mar 22, 2014
Messages
15,255
Supports
Piracy on the High Seas.
Himannv...................................................................................................................................SirScholes
..........VS...........



Team Himannv (J. Rep dropped for R. Houseman)

Tactics

This is a take on Simeone's 4-4-2.

Simeone Tactics Overview

The following image (figure 1) is how they line up currently for most part.


Figure 1: Current Atletico Formation

As you can probably guess from Figure 1 and your own experience of watching them, this roughly involves the following:

Wingers
  • Narrow formation.
  • Players more suited to playing as CMs or AMs featuring on the flanks.
Attack
  • Clever attackers who know how to find space.
  • Interchangable attack with players switching positions frequently.
  • Counter attack can start from anywhere on the pitch. This means players will have to be able to play that first pass well.
  • Well-drilled offensive lines. Each player knows when to drop deep, when to rotate, which gap to fill, etc.
Defence
  • Mid to low block depending on the opposition.
  • An aggressive CB to deal with the balls lofted into the box.
  • Well-drilled defensive lines. Each player knows when to drop deep, position themselves well to hold the structure, etc.
  • Press can start from anywhere on the pitch, but typically it starts deeper.
  • Dominant keeper.

Let's go into the above points in more detail in the following section.

How Simeone's Tactics Compare to Mine

Wingers

  • Suitability: Players are more suited to playing as CMs or AMs featuring on the flanks. Koke is a good example here as most would categorize him as an AM or an attacking CM. In my case, we have Litmanen and Houseman. Both these players are well suited to playing through the middle, while also operating wider when it suits them.

  • Differences: Both Litmanen and Houseman are instructed to be more offensive minded, so their focus will be on positioning themselves for a quick attack and switching positions with my attackers as oppossed to being behind the ball all the time.

Attack

  • Suitability: Atletico Madrid have also built quite the reputation off of their counter attacking style of play. After winning possession, they don’t typically look to go long. Instead they look to play quick intelligent passes into their attackers. Their attack is quite mobile, often looking for spaces to run into and gaps to fill. They have a very vertical approach to their play, looking to spring their attacks quickly. Notably, they’ve also been caught offside more than any other team in the league. This is a statistic that they’ve often been at the top of the charts for over the years, but not one that they’ve ever attempted to change. In their quick counter attacking style, offsides are simply bound to happen more often.

    They’ve also continued to rely on the individual ability of players like Correa and Koke to create chances through skill rather than elaborate combinations and team possession turning into brilliance. This is easily replicatable with Litmanen and Houseman in my view. Griezmann was one of the main proponents of this kind of attack as he played a big role in linking things up. In my case, I have similarly intelligent and mobile forwards in Dalglish and Keegan who will take turns in playing this role. Litmanen and Houseman also switch positions with Keegan and Dalglish at times, making this a very fluid front 4 in the attacking phase.

  • Differences: Atletico operate with a more aerially dominant attacker like Morata or Diego Costa. In our case, Dalglish is reasonably good in the air, but we rely more on his ability to create space for himself and his teammates. Due to the narrow nature of the formation, this approach suits this team tactically and his intelligence will be important for this attack to function seamlessly. Keegan, as we know, is better aerially and will play that role for the team, while also being a player who can operate deeper.

Defence


Figure 2: The structure

  • Suitability: As you can see in Figure 2, the team is very narrow and generally structured in two banks of four. Pressing typically starts deeper and the idea is to congest the spaces. This, of course, allows the opposition to have the ball further away from the defensive lines and the stats back this up. The central midfielders in front of the defence will patrol, close down, challenge and force backwards, leaving the defence behind them to clear any lofted deliveries into the area. They’ve kept 48% of possession in La Liga last season, only the 11th most in the league. Unsurprisingly given their block, they force their opposition into shots from outside the eighteen yard box more than any other team in La Liga. 50% of their shots against come outside of the 18-yard box, compared to 43% inside the 18 (the lowest in the league) and 7% in the 6-yard box.

    Due to the high amount of lofted deliveries into the box, the likes of Diego Godin or Jimenez are vital to their success. They need that kind of an aggressive CB in there who will be an absolute beast in the air and deal with deliveries into the box. My answer to this is a player I rate a lot; Barry Hulshoff. He's an absolute physical speciment and a beast of a player. He attacks the ball brilliantly and is an exceptional fit. Blankenburg is obviously an ideal partner to have as he has loads of experience playing alongside Hulshoff and is a good defender in his own right. He cleans up behind the big man and only didn't feature for Germany because one Franz Beckenbauer happened to be playing around the same time. The fullbacks are also, first and foremost, good defenders who will join the attack only when needed and are hence ideal fits for this system.

    As far as midfielders are concerned, both Giles and Szymaniak have high energy and workrate, with Szymaniak being better defensively and will mostly be playing as the DM in my setup. As such they are an ideal fit to patrol, close down and shield the area in front of the defense.

  • Differences: Not many significant differences here. The setup and personnel are quite complementary for most part.


Other

  • I haven't talked about the goalkeeper much for obvious reasons. Jan Oblak is obviously a perfect fit here. The numerous clean sheets are, of course, in large part down to the overall structure, ability and mentality of Atletico's team, but Oblak is a fantastic player to call upon at the last. His large frame gives him dominance inside the penalty area on high balls and a great reach for shots high or into the corners; add to that his fine reflexes and ability to spread himself and it's clear why he's such a tough goalkeeper to beat.




Team SirScholes (S. Agüero dropped for Edmundo)

Defence
We all have great players in our teams, where I feel there is an advantage is in the incredibly well balanced and functioning defence that's been assembled here, they compliment each other so well.

Tassotti (RB in AC Milans greatest ever defence) and our very own Tony Dunne (known for his lightning speed) have great athleticism to support the midfield when in control of the ball and then recover when without.
Beside Tassotti we have fellow his countryman Collovati regarded as one of Italy's greatest defenders and he is partnered by John Terry, both CBs are strong in the air, excellent man markers and very competent passers of the ball.

Midfield
Casemiro will be the shield, a strong combative player who again has a great range of passing as well as a fierce shot if left unguarded. He will be my ball winner, dropping the ball off to Hoddle who will be the main playmaker looking for the movement of the front 4. Hoddle gets a bad rep in England at times so I’ll leave Platini to sum him up;
“If Hoddle had been French, he would have won well over 100 caps and the team would have been built around him”
Hoddle is assisted in creating by Brady, where Hoddle has a vast array of passing Brady will pose a different threat with his fast dribbling, gliding past his man, drawing in others and slipping in the runs from my wingers and forward.

Forwards
Some South American flair up top, on the left we have Tostao, not blessed with speed or strength but incredibly intelligent, he can play anywhere across the front line, if Edmundo drops deep Tostao can run in behind, 249 goals in 378 apps for a player that was not recognised as all out striker is not bad. Where the left has a more “david silva” style player the right side has a speed demon, one of the greatest dribblers in his prime in Ariel Ortega, the highly talented playmaker who had an eye for goal with his little chips. Tostao and Ortega have licence to run in behind Edmundo who likes to come short and make space for others

The front 3 are incredibly mobile, their ability to create space will cause all manner of problems, wide players supported by fullbacks, Edmundo dropping deep followed by his marker so Liam Brady can dart in the space created.




Overall I feel part of the team I’m most happy with is the balance, the defenders are all quick, intelligent, with great distribution, known for being the right type of aggressive. The threat posed by Terry at set-pieces can’t be ignored.
 

harms

Shining Star of Paektu Mountain
Staff
Joined
Apr 8, 2014
Messages
28,009
Location
Moscow
Send me your picture please @SirScholes since @Invictus doesn't seem to be around.
I'll reset the poll once both pics are updated.
 

Šjor Bepo

Wout is love, Wout is life; all hail Wout!
Joined
Mar 29, 2011
Messages
15,642
Id buy Keegan - Kenny partnership, Litmanen in the LM role but what i dont buy is Hulshoff in this setup. He doesnt fit both on and off the ball, in both segments - he is just to wild for one of the most disciplined systems in history. Other then that its a very good remake.

Regarding Scholes team, find it odd seeing Tostao out of position given he is by far the best player in the team alongside Brady. Personally dont mind players out of position(and he would do fine there) but when the quality gap is so big surely you want your star player in best possible position?
Edmundo and Ortega, honestly dont know what to think of both so will have to do some research before or follow the disscussion but Edmundo pretty much has my approvel already as anyone who drinks with a monkey is my kind of guy.
 

GodShaveTheQueen

We mean it man, we love our queen!
Joined
Oct 11, 2018
Messages
6,434
what i dont buy is Hulshoff in this setup. He doesnt fit both on and off the ball, in both segments - he is just to wild for one of the most disciplined systems in history.
Nah, he wasn't the wild one in Ajax. While he was himself capable of playing from the back, it was almost always his partner that was the wilder one. The last line of the defense usually and perhaps the one that added physical steel to the Ajax defense. No wonder the Dutch missed him badly in 74 to the extend of suggesting they would have surely won it if he was present. I think he would be a good fit in any sort of team, be it attacking minded, balanced or defensive minded .
 

Šjor Bepo

Wout is love, Wout is life; all hail Wout!
Joined
Mar 29, 2011
Messages
15,642
Nah, he wasn't the wild one in Ajax. While he was himself capable of playing from the back, it was almost always his partner that was the wilder one. The last line of the defense usually and perhaps the one that added physical steel to the Ajax defense. No wonder the Dutch missed him badly in 74 to the extend of suggesting they would have surely won it if he was present. I think he would be a good fit in any sort of team, be it attacking minded, balanced or defensive minded .
I only watched him at Ajax so disagree. Can only find one match compilation but this is pretty much what i saw in other games as well, there is nothing wrong with that style and he was brilliant at it but it just doesnt fit into Atletico theme.
 

GodShaveTheQueen

We mean it man, we love our queen!
Joined
Oct 11, 2018
Messages
6,434
I only watched him at Ajax so disagree. Can only find one match compilation but this is pretty much what i saw in other games as well, there is nothing wrong with that style and he was brilliant at it but it just doesnt fit into Atletico theme.
Fair bit to do with the way that Ajax team played but I think a more fair season to a pick a game from would be 1970-71 to judge him being the more reserved CB partner. Vasovic retired in 1971 after that first European Cup triumph.

 
Last edited:

Šjor Bepo

Wout is love, Wout is life; all hail Wout!
Joined
Mar 29, 2011
Messages
15,642
Fair bit to do with the way that Ajax team played but I think a more fair season to a pick a game from would be 1970-71 to judge him being the more reserved CB partner. Vasovic retired in 1971 after that first European Cup triumph.


Been a long time since i watched those games so cant really comment on specific games/years but surely the more apt example is where he plays with his actual draft partner rather then Vasovic.
 

GodShaveTheQueen

We mean it man, we love our queen!
Joined
Oct 11, 2018
Messages
6,434
Been a long time since i watched those games so cant really comment on specific games/years but surely the more apt example is where he plays with his actual draft partner rather then Vasovic.
Not necessarily if you are choosing for a different version of the player than in the real life partnership. When you pick Cruyff and Gullit, do you play the 36 year old Cruyff and the 21 year old Gullit when they played together at Feyenoord?

Irrespective of that, the tactics themselves are not same.
 

Šjor Bepo

Wout is love, Wout is life; all hail Wout!
Joined
Mar 29, 2011
Messages
15,642
Not necessarily if you are choosing for a different version of the player than in the real life partnership. When you pick Cruyff and Gullit, do you play the 36 year old Cruyff and the 21 year old Gullit when they played together at Feyenoord?

Irrespective of that, the tactics themselves are not same.
True but then you are not mentioning the proven partnerships and ideal partners do you?
 

Himannv

Full Member
Joined
Dec 11, 2017
Messages
5,789
Location
Somewhere in the draft forum
what i dont buy is Hulshoff in this setup. He doesnt fit both on and off the ball, in both segments - he is just to wild for one of the most disciplined systems in history. Other then that its a very good remake.
On the ball: I get why you might think he's not a good fit by watching a total football kind of system where he might venture forward more than usual. In my view, he rarely dwells on the ball too much and passes it out quickly, which is what you need from a counter-attacking perspective. We have to remember here that Godin bursts forward from time to time as well, although he isn't particularly graceful and goes for power instead. Mostly he moves forward to overload and take the opposition by surprise. I see Hulshoff being able to replicate that and I feel he was always a responsible defender.

Off the ball: I think this is where he's an even better fit for the system. Atletico's block ensures that most teams are somewhat forced into breaking in by crosses, and you need an aggressive CB who will attack the ball in these scenarios. Godin, for me, does this perfectly and, as you can see even during his later Ajax games (72 or 73), this is an ability that Hulshoff also possesses in spades. This is one of the primary requirements for a Simeone system. I think your criticism is that he might chase the ball too much and cause the team to lose shape? I don't feel he would do that in this setup (unless we're talking about total football, in which case the shape is held in a different way). I think he's a responsible defender generally.

I would understand criticism of Blankenburg a bit more as he's more adventurous and not exactly ideal for a counter-attacking system when on the ball. He seems fine off the ball for the setup in my view.
 

Himannv

Full Member
Joined
Dec 11, 2017
Messages
5,789
Location
Somewhere in the draft forum
Has Litmanan ever played LM? He's a AM/SS hybrid from what I recall.
Sorry, I completely missed this post somehow. He mostly played as AM and sometimes as SS. He's never played in a system like this of course. None of them have, as it's well ahead of their time. I think he will fit there the same way that Koke does. For me, the best goal he ever scored was from the left where he stole the ball off the defender and made that Cruyff-like lofted finish into the top corner. Peak Ajax Litmanen right there I think that version of him can do this job. Positional responsibility was always ingrained into him anyway due to the LVG "philosophy".
 

harms

Shining Star of Paektu Mountain
Staff
Joined
Apr 8, 2014
Messages
28,009
Location
Moscow
For me, the best goal he ever scored was from the left where he stole the ball off the defender and made that Cruyff-like lofted finish into the top corner.

:drool:

I have to say, I didn't like Litmanen in that role. His most outstanding quality was his ability to find and create space – which is why he was used in the middle between the lines, where he can do that as best as he can – while the likes of Overmars, George, Kluivert etc. stretched the pitch as far as they could, both horizontally and vertically. By putting him on the wing, even in this hybrid role, you take away his main strength – and without this positional freedom he's just a good player. It was his spatial awareness that made his truly special – I wouldn't say that he was an all-time great dribbler/passer/shooter etc.
 

GodShaveTheQueen

We mean it man, we love our queen!
Joined
Oct 11, 2018
Messages
6,434

:drool:

I have to say, I didn't like Litmanen in that role. His most outstanding quality was his ability to find and create space – which is why he was used in the middle between the lines, where he can do that as best as he can – while the likes of Overmars, George, Kluivert etc. stretched the pitch as far as they could, both horizontally and vertically. By putting him on the wing, even in this hybrid role, you take away his main strength – and without this positional freedom he's just a good player. It was his spatial awareness that made his truly special – I wouldn't say that he was an all-time great dribbler/passer/shooter etc.
That video is so deceiving. Cruyff made the turn himself, he didn't need the defender to make the turn for him :lol: