The Virgin League Draft - Joga Bonito & Theon vs. Fortitude (GROUP A)

[Invictus]

Joga Bonito & Theon....................................................................................................................Fortitude

..........VS...........

Team Joga Bonito & Theon (Bebeto dropped for E. Streltsov)


DEFENSE

Dino Zoff, the WC winning captain will prove to be a formidable last line of defense with his calming presence, organisational abilities and stupendous shot stopping expertise. The organisational and defensive prowess of Armando Picchi is pivotal to this defensive set up and as one of the finest exponents ever in the art of 'sweeping', Picchi's reading of the game and ability to sniff and put out danger, before it manifests, will be critical. Billy Wright was quite simply a rock at the back for England and Cullis's historic Wolves. Wright was a no nonsense CB who was immense aerially and physically, whilst his reading of the game was top notch. Dutch dynamo Van Bronckhorst was a force to be reckoned with on the left as Gio could man the left flank single handedly and was a potent threat to the opposition's goal (as his goal against Uruguay in the '10 WC will testify). The terrier Berti Vogts needs no introduction and the German will fortify the rearguard and will form a great right flank with Haßler.


MIDFIELD

Dave Mackay, the man branded by Best to be "his toughest and bravest opponent", was the cornerstone of Nicholson's historic double winning Spurs vintage. In many ways similar to Keano, Jimmy Greaves once remarked that Mackay was "the most complete professional footballer I have ever known". Juan Sebastian Veron was one of the foremost midfield playmakers in the late nineties as he squared up and shined against some of the toughest opposition that football had to offer in the 90s Serie A. The Witch was a sublime playmaker whose tenacious and industrious playing style made him a complete package.

The little magician Alain Giresse was one of France's best players as he dovetailed beautifully with Platini in the carré magique, but he was a legendary figure for Bordeaux and the record goalscorer for the Les Girondins, was a talismanic playmaker in his own right.

Thomas Haßler, a pivotal figure in the 80s and 90s German vintage, was a top notch playmaker with his versatility and industry always coming to the fore. Blessed with a lovely touch and a low centre of gravity, the German along with Littbarski provided the flair to the German machine of the 80s & 90s. It is only testament to his quality that his performances in the 92 Euros, invited comparisons with Maradona's 86 WC displays.


OFFENSE

The spearhead Alberto Spencer was the complete centre forward with searing pace, devastating aerial prowess, jinxing dribbling, dynamism and unerring finishing. Quite simply put, Spencer is one of the greatest centre forwards ever. With Streltsov in tandem and the creative cast behind him, he'll be in his element.


Eduard Streltsov was by all accounts the greatest Soviet player ever, no faint praise given the competition he has. Had it not been for the tragic circumstances he wouldn't be featuring in this draft. Streltsov was a prodigiously gifted forward, who was creative (with his trademark backheels) but also capable of ripping defenses apart single handedly with his sheer explosiveness.


Key Points

• The side is bolstered by several inspirational leaders, esp at the back - 82 WC winning captain D.Zoff, La Grande Inter's captain Picchi, skipper of the great 70s Gladbach side Vogts and Wright, the first player and skipper ever to reach the 100 cap milestone. Van Bronchorst skippered the Dutch to the 2010 WC and also joins Wright, Zoff and Haßler in the exclusive 100+ caps club. The side will offer sturdy resistance at the back with the resolute and the inspirational rearguard .

• The rearguard should provide the platform for the midfield and the techno midgets to do their thing. The deadly duo will be in no shortage of supply with Gio and Haßler from the flanks and the likes of Giresse and Veron. The Spencer-Streltsov duo should be a handful for any defense as both were complete forwards capable of putting the finishing touches to a well worked move from the creative cast behind them, or conjuring up a goal themselves.

• Fortitude has a fine side but his defense could find it difficult to come to terms with our offense's explosiveness and incisiveness, with Haßler and Spencer in particular, looking to have good games.

• On the other hand I'd back my defense to contain Fortitude's offense with the likes of Vogts and Wright matching up well with their opponents (Finney or Hoeneß and Altafini) with Picchi off all people mopping up.

Team Fortitude ( D. Stojković dropped for K. Koulibaly)

High press with high line and aggressive attack.

Defensive line: pace, aggression, aerial competence, physical strength, intelligence and reading of play plus two centrebacks who are able to play up and out of defense to open men on the inside or outside of them. I have confidence in the CB-pairing against any type of striker or support striker. Both full-backs are impressive overlappers and Kimmich has a wand for a foot, essentially being my Junior as and when necessary when not only joining the attack, but loitering in midfield when required and aiding the press.

Midfield: Rock-solid. Passing, pressing, press resistance, stamina, tackling, intercepting, reading of play, counter-attacking, aggression, mobility, defensive height, shooting and all three of them can switch positions on a whim, which not only enables formation flexibility, but also means there's no bad position to put them in i.e. my DM is being covered by a CM or AM; in this midfield, it amounts to the same thing as all of them are fluid and capable as DM's, CM's and no slouches in attack.

Attack: My front line is teeming with quality, flexibility and dynamism. Finney is my star man - a Cristiano before Cristiano and he will be a lethal proposition whether driving to the byline, cutting inside or plain supplying one of the greatest strikers of the 60's in Altafini. I selected Altafini to lead my attack because of the plethora of goalscoring methods he brings to the table allied to his ability in the build up and his sense of timing on when to make dummy runs. An eclectic striker such as he, who is equally prolific, is invaluable.

Hoeneß is aggression and proactivity personified and not only will he drive to the box in attack, he will drop deep into midfield and link up with Kimmich, Hanappi and sometimes Haan as and when required to do so. His energy and intelligence combined with Kimmich and Hanappi makes for one of the hardest working and dynamic flanks in the draft outright. I am confident in him and it in both directions.

Arie Haan is one of, if not the greatest long-range shooter of all time. It would be downright negligent for any side to let him play from deep, which is great for me as it forces action towards him and makes simply holding position and trying to pick my players off very difficult to do. The moment the opposition decide to engage, the midfield carousal ensues, by which Toninho Cerezo and Hanappi both get space to work on or off the ball.

Cerezo is my ball retainer in midfield, and again, one of the best midfielders in the entire draft in this particular aspect of play. He is adept in any style of play or opportunistic scenario via his passing, dribbling and intelligence. I cannot say I have special plans in place for Theoga as my team will be the one pushing the pace and theirs, reacting to it. I have very few specific vulnerabilities for them to focus or hone in on, and if they do attempt to press or bring the game to me, purportedly in behind a marauding Alba, I'm perfectly comfortable for them to do so, as in an open game, my side stacks up with anybody's.

What I would question, however, is whether Theoga have the energy reserves to take my side on deep into the second half. Kimmich, Alba, Haan, Hanappi, and Hoeneß are all renowned for tremendous energy levels and potency at times where lesser athletes fade. I won't say this is a key strategy in my team, rather, it is an inevitability that high octane football or even a hard fought game is going to be more beneficial to my cohort than theirs.

None of the above is to say I feel this game is a wash, far from it, but whatever they bring to the table, the side I have put out can match and give back.

 

[harms]

An obvious question – which version of Streltsov is this? @Joga Bonito @Theon

 

[Gio]

An obvious question – which version of Streltsov is this? @Joga Bonito @Theon

And which version of Gio?

 

[Fortitude]

That's an incredibly short backline. Shortest backline in draft history? Even with great leaps, they're gonna have to have their best games with the quality of delivery from Kimmich, Hoeness, Alba and... Finney to someone who was great in the air in his own right in Altafini. I honestly expected to see Montero at the back for that very reason (height).

The whole point of a backline being the height it is is to maximise their chances in the air and not have numerous 50-50's with quick and nimble strikers who are proficient in the air. Wright has great repute in the air, but to partner him with another tiny defender is... curious.

No intention of going high all game, but there's a much bigger window of opportunity for me in that regard than I was anticipating.

Oh, and good luck @Theon and @Joga Bonito

 

[Physiocrat]

@Joga Bonito @Theon Are you playing a Zona Mista or a lopsided 4231? Is Picchi playing as a modern sweeper CB in line in a back 4 or behind the rest of the defence of a more traditional sweeper?

 

[harms]

Wright was genuinely great in the air though, not just decent; I'd say that he resembled Cannavaro in that aspect. It's not surprising, since the English game of the 50's was very much reliant on crosses and he was always man-marking a striker. He wouldn't have survived otherwise – and not only did he do that, he had became one of the greatest defenders of the decade alongside Santamaria and Jonquet.

The collective height issue is still something to take note of. But I'd give it more thought if you had someone not just good, but genuinely great in that area – and someone tall as well. Altafini was 1,76m tall, hardly a giant. Hoeneß was quite good in the air as well, but not quite like his brother, for example.

 

[Joga Bonito]

Good luck @Fortitude

Voting for myself to see the score.

An obvious question – which version of Streltsov is this? @Joga Bonito @Theon

The pre-incarceration version. Whilst the later version was arguably more creative and relatively more polished technically, we feel the younger Streltsov's explosiveness and goalscoring ability should tie in well with the creative cast behind him. Spencer too had great link up play and great movement in the channels and liked dropping off to the flanks too. I can see the S&S duo being quite the menace in this game

 

[harms]

The pre-incarceration version. Whilst the later version was arguably more creative and relatively more polished technically, we feel the younger Streltsov's explosiveness and goalscoring ability should tie in well with the creative cast behind him. Spencer too had great link up play and great movement in the channels and liked dropping off to the flanks too. I can see the S&S duo being quite the menace in this game

Yeah, fair enough. I'd probably go with a younger version as well, considering your midfield.

 

[Fortitude]

Wright was genuinely great in the air though, not just decent; I'd say that he resembled Cannavaro in that aspect. It's not surprising, since the English game of the 50's was very much reliant on crosses and he was always man-marking a striker. He wouldn't have survived otherwise – and not only did he do that, he had became one of the greatest defenders of the decade alongside Santamaria and Jonquet.

The collective height issue is still something to take note of. But I'd give it more thought if you had someone not just good, but genuinely great in that area – and someone tall as well. Altafini was 1,76m tall, hardly a giant.

The point, though, is height at the back is a deterrent and at least lets the shorter man get on with his job whilst the bigger guy is there as assurance. When do you ever see a short guy paired with another one? And then on their outside by an even shorter one. I can't think of a backline that short in 'real life'

Wright isn't mobile or agile, so setting himself for his heading is also with some compromise from his partner. Picchi is a sweeper not a proper CB; his instincts are not to stand in line next to his man, when his forte was positioning himself for loose balls and the like.

It's a backline that really ties itself in knots, for me. I honestly wouldn't have expected to see it unless it was a 3 with Montero in there and Picchi doing his thing between the lines.

Have to also say Streltsov has a lot of work to do in that position. It is another surprise for me.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Two really good teams there. I have no idea about Streltsov in that role as I have always pictured him as a purely central attacker. Perhaps need to be more educated on this.

The advantages for each team seem obvious to me.

The Picchi led defense looks more reliable but Fortitude has got his wing backs spot on. Not sure how to rate Koulibaly currently to be honest and to a less extent Kimmich as well. Van Bronkhorst probably needs some help out wide as well in 2 vs 1 situations but in general prefer the Picchi led defense compared to the more younger aggressive one led by Varane

The midfield battle looks very tasty. Veron and Giresse were good picks in the round they were nabbed. I do prefer the other midfield though just for being more all rounded. All 3 could contribute in both attacking and defensive phases and in general seem to have a lot more energy. The opposition might be short on legs there off the ball.

Got to give extra marks for Zoff here as well. That might as well be the difference in the end.

@Fortitude , you said you had a full match of Hanappi. Great if you could post it as I want to watch it.

 

[Fortitude]

Two really good teams there. I have no idea about Streltsov in that role as I have always pictured him as a purely central attacker. Perhaps need to be more educated on this.

The advantages for each team seem obvious to me.

The Picchi led defense looks more reliable but Fortitude has got his wing backs spot on. Not sure how to rate Koulibaly currently to be honest and to a less extent Kimmich as well. Van Bronkhorst probably needs some help out wide as well in 2 vs 1 situations but in general prefer the Picchi led defense compared to the more younger aggressive one led by Varane

The midfield battle looks very tasty. Veron and Giresse were good picks in the round they were nabbed. I do prefer the other midfield though just for being more all rounded. All 3 could contribute in both attacking and defensive phases and in general seem to have a lot more energy. The opposition might be short on legs there off the ball.

Got to give extra marks for Zoff here as well. That might as well be the difference in the end.

@Fortitude , you said you had a full match of Hanappi. Great if you could post it as I want to watch it.

https://www.11v11.com/matches/netherlands-v-austria-25-september-1957-226979/
https://cloud.mail.ru/public/4QmB/3ACGSsejp/

I don't want to beat a dead horse, but

Picchi: 5"6'
Wright: 5"7'
Vogts: 5'5'

Van Bronckhurst is not your man in aerial defensive phases, but these guys are.

Would also question where the aerial crosses for Spencer are coming from or with any rate of consistency given the narrow midfield set up and all 4 of my wide-men being difficult to subdue for varying reasons.

 

[Joga Bonito]

@Joga Bonito @Theon Are you playing a Zona Mista or a lopsided 4231? Is Picchi playing as a modern sweeper CB in line in a back 4 or behind the rest of the defence of a more traditional sweeper?

A lop sided 4-2-3-1, not catenaccio or zonal mista.

That's an incredibly short backline. Shortest backline in draft history? Even with great leaps, they're gonna have to have their best games with the quality of delivery from Kimmich, Hoeness, Alba and... Finney to someone who was great in the air in his own right in Altafini. I honestly expected to see Montero at the back for that very reason (height).

I recall one of the greatest defenses ever in the 80s Juve side which conquered all in front of them being relatively short too.

Scirea - 1.78
Gentile - 1.77
Cabrini - 1.78

With only Brio being great in the air and towering at 1.90m.

It always helps having a great header around ay the back and Billy Wright fits the bill to a tee. Wright was great in the air in the same mould as Passarella or Cannavaro for instance. And from what I've seen of Altafini he was a speedy and an excellent striker but never quite well endowed aerially to challenge Wright imo. Hoeneß was decent in the air too but not so much that he'd threaten Van Bronchorst or my centre backs aerially.

And which version of Gio?

The 06-08. Was ever present in Barca's Champions League triumph and was fantastic in the Euro 08 tournament when the Dutch played some exhilarating football.

 

[Gio]

A lop sided 4-2-3-1, not catenaccio or zonal mista.



I recall one of the greatest defenses ever in the 80s Juve side which conquered all in front of them being relatively short too.

Scirea - 1.78
Gentile - 1.77
Cabrini - 1.78

With only Brio being great in the air and towering at 1.90m.

It always helps having a great header around ay the back and Billy Wright fits the bill to a tee. Wright was great in the air in the same mould as Passarella or Cannavaro for instance. And from what I've seen of Altafini he was a speedy and an excellent striker but never quite well endowed aerially to challenge Wright imo. Hoeneß was decent in the air too but not so much that he'd threaten Van Bronchorst or my centre backs aerially.



The 06-08. Was ever present in Barca's Champions League triumph and was fantastic in the Euro 08 tournament when the Dutch played some exhilarating football.

Cheers. He was quite a different player before he did his hernia and cruciate in the space of 18 months or so in the early 2000s. Good use anyway within the system, despite the typo.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Fortitude, have you considered swapping Finney and Uli? Finney vs Gio would be a bigger mismatch in your favor.

 

[Fortitude]

A lop sided 4-2-3-1, not catenaccio or zonal mista.



I recall one of the greatest defenses ever in the 80s Juve side which conquered all in front of them being relatively short too.

Scirea - 1.78
Gentile - 1.77
Cabrini - 1.78

With only Brio being great in the air and towering at 1.90m.

It always helps having a great header around ay the back and Billy Wright fits the bill to a tee. Wright was great in the air in the same mould as Passarella or Cannavaro for instance. And from what I've seen of Altafini he was a speedy and an excellent striker but never quite well endowed aerially to challenge Wright imo. Hoeneß was decent in the air too but not so much that he'd threaten Van Bronchorst or my centre backs aerially.



The 06-08. Was ever present in Barca's Champions League triumph and was fantastic in the Euro 08 tournament when the Dutch played some exhilarating football.

With due respect, Joga, those are fair heights for the era - 5"9's and above are shortish, but not enough for the comment to be made unless their dealing with Bierhoff's and Charles' etc. Your backline is legitimately tiny! Altafini is about speed and movement connected to aerial prowess, which means darting across men, not standing and challenging mano-a-mano; without those few inches, his chances and opportunities to do this increase because there is no 'wall' of a bigger man for him to breach before even considering getting his connection with the ball. Wright is never beating Altafini from a sudden burst standing start - Altafini's acceleration was world renowned.

I shan't belabour the point, but it should still remain massively valid, imo. Your defenders have to have better games than my attackers to balance out that particular 'handicap'.

 

[Joga Bonito]

The point, though, is height at the back is a deterrent and at least lets the shorter man get on with his job whilst the bigger guy is there as assurance. When do you ever see a short guy paired with another one? And then on their outside by an even shorter one. I can't think of a backline that short in 'real life'

How about the 1978 World Cup winning side

Passarella - 1.73
L.Galvan - 1.74
Olguin - 1.76
Tarantini - 1.79

No one would think about bombing that box aerially with Pasarella of all people being there. Wright too was of the same class aerially and I wouldn't mind if crosses or long balls are one of your preferred attacking routes with Wright at the back against the likes of Finney, Hoeneß and Finney.

 

[harms]

Two really good teams there. I have no idea about Streltsov in that role as I have always pictured him as a purely central attacker. Perhaps need to be more educated on this.

In terms of his movement & positioning I’d compare young Streltsov with Fenomeno with his driving runs forward through central zones, with enough pace and ability to roam wide when there’s free space there. Even an older version of Streltsov made those wide runs from time to time quite effectively, and he was half as fast and twice as heavy as his younger self (this may be a slight exaggeration).

 

[Joga Bonito]

Two really good teams there. I have no idea about Streltsov in that role as I have always pictured him as a purely central attacker. Perhaps need to be more educated on this.

It's more of a forward duo with van Bronchorst primarily tasked with providing width. As harms stated, Streltsov was a really dynamic and explosive forward who was capable of roaming to the channels and flanks as required. Precisely why we chose the more explosive earlier version and not the later version.

Not sure how to rate Koulibaly currently to be honest and to a less extent Kimmich as well

Agreed. Was surprised by those picks and I reckon Fortitude has a good rationale for them but for me, they haven't done enough to be appearing in this draft, esp against the likes of Spencer and Streltsov. The S&S duo could prove to be the difference in this match, especially against that defense.

The opposition might be short on legs there off the ball.

I'd say Mackay is the most combative and solid midfielder on the pitch and Veron's industry and tenacity gets underrated at times. I've seen games where he's gone toe to toe with the likes of David's and he used to play in a midfield duo for Lazio in a 4-4-2 for instance.


Fortitude has an excellent midfield trio but does lack a playmaker and as great as Finney and Honeß were, neither were capable of dropping deep and acting as a playmaker. It is a combative and a complete trio but one which would prefer having a Charlton or a Cruyff ahead of them, not two wing forwards, as creative or talismanic as they were.

Cheers. He was quite a different player before he did his hernia and cruciate in the space of 18 months or so in the early 2000s. Good use anyway within the system, despite the typo.

Cheers

 

[Fortitude]

How about the 1978 World Cup winning side

Passarella - 1.73
L.Galvan - 1.74
Olguin - 1.76
Tarantini - 1.79

No one would think about bombing that box aerially with Pasarella of all people being there. Wright too was of the same class aerially and I wouldn't mind if crosses or long balls are one of your preferred attacking routes with Wright at the back against the likes of Finney, Hoeneß and Finney.

Hmmm... The shortest guy there is the height of your tallest defensively proficient defender... I think this would go round in circles because there's no way to convince me of a defence that short being a thing. I'm guessing it was an oversight rather than intentional - just stood immediately stood out to me when looking at your lineup.

My tactics were never to aerially bombard you; just now, aerial attacks become more potent for me, imo for the reasons I already stated in previous posts.

I had you guys penned in a dogged 3-5-2 or 3-4-3 as I was wondering if Mouljin would be added to give Spencer a consistent supply line. As already mentioned the Streltsov decision and the backline have thrown me because, imo, they are sub-optimal given your personnel - Streltsov through the middle all day, every day, I would've thought.

Anyway, not going to make this whole thread about your tiny backline!

 

[Fortitude]

Fortitude, have you considered swapping Finney and Uli? Finney vs Gio would be a bigger mismatch in your favor.

I was going to add that my wingers can switch flanks on a whim, but as its not set in stone by way of writing prior to the game, I would leave things as is - Finney occupying Vogts is also important as his presence on that side prevents Vogts' marauding and joining the attack. If Vogts is going to abandon Finney, by all means he can go for it and leave Finney in acres of space to probe on the outside of the centrebacks.

I also think Hoeness' aggression is a real problem for Van Bronckhurst, that and his ability to abruptly play in-field and leave his full-back in no-man's land presents a unique problem on whether VB tries to follow and tuck, then leaving space outside for Kimmich, or hold his position and essentially mark thin air.

 

[Joga Bonito]

I think this would go round in circles because there's no way to convince me of a defence that short being a thing. I'm guessing it was an oversight rather than intentional - just stood immediately stood out to me when looking at your lineup.

Nope it was definitely intentional. Place Passarella in there and there wouldn't be any questions about it. I dont rate Wright too far from Passarella aerially and in this match up he's up against Altafini. I'd take that any day of the week.

I had you guys penned in a dogged 3-5-2 or 3-4-3 as I was wondering if Mouljin would be added to give Spencer a consistent supply line.

I kind of expected that as many seem to just view Spencer as a heading monster when his game was much more than that. He was a complete centre forward who was extremely tricky, pacy and with ridiculously good movement.



It's just the same thing that you'd hear with Kocsis - great header so where is the great crosser providing the crosses? So much so that their all round game starts getting underappreciated as a result.

With Penarol, there was only one real wing outlet with Abbadie, who was more of an industrious RM than a crossing RW. In fact I'd go so far as to say that with van Bronckhorst and Haßler on the right, he'll receive much better service from the flanks than he usually does.

 

[Joga Bonito]

I was going to add that my wingers can switch flanks on a whim, but as its not set in stone by way of writing prior to the game, I would leave things as is - Finney occupying Vogts is also important as his presence on that side prevents Vogts' marauding and joining the attack. If Vogts is going to abandon Finney, by all means he can go for it and leave Finney in acres of space to probe on the outside of the centrebacks.

I also think Hoeness' aggression is a real problem for Van Bronckhurst, that and his ability to abruptly play in-field and leave his full-back in no-man's land presents a unique problem on whether VB tries to follow and tuck, then leaving space outside for Kimmich, or hold his position and essentially mark thin air.

The same applies for Alba with Haßler who was very much a two way player on the right and if Kimmich decides to venture forward, it's going to leave space for Streltsov to exploit, leaving Varane to cover him and Koulibaly one on one with Spencer.

And Alba isn't going to be getting much defensive support from Finney and could find it tough defensively against the nifty German. With Spencer and Streltsov up front, having a creative outlet such as Haßler in his element could prove to be deadly.

Haßler too, was ridiculously hard working and capable of tracking his man relentlessly off the ball.

 

[Fortitude]

Nope it was definitely intentional. Place Passarella in there and there wouldn't be any questions about it. I dont rate Wright too far from Passarella aerially and in this match up he's up against Altafini. I'd take that any day of the week.



I kind of expected that as many seem to just view Spencer as a heading monster when his game was much more than that. He was a complete centre forward who was extremely tricky, pacy and with ridiculously good movement.



It's just the same thing that you'd hear with Kocsis - great header so where is the great crosser providing the crosses? So much so that their all round game starts getting underappreciated as a result.

With Penarol, there was only one real wing outlet with Abbadie, who was more of an industrious RM than a crossing RW. In fact I'd go so far as to say that with van Bronckhorst and Haßler on the right, he'll receive much better service from the flanks than he usually does.

I know about Spencer, but optimising him means maximising all his skills of which heading is what he is most renowned for. I'm not complaining that you didn't go that route, btw

 

[harms]

Finney occupying Vogts is also important as his presence on that side prevents Vogts' marauding and joining the attack.

That's worth a sympathy point. Finally Vogts is seen as a footballer again!

 

[Fortitude]

That's worth a sympathy point. Finally Vogts is seen as a footballer again!

I can't even believe he's in the draft! Serious top tier.

 

[Physiocrat]

How much work did the young Streltsov do off the ball?

 

[Joga Bonito]

I know about Spencer, but optimising him means maximising all his skills of which heading is what he is most renowned for. I'm not complaining that you didn't go that route, btw

No doubt and I'd say he has better service from the flanks than he normally did when he was banging them in for Penarol .

Also would like to know more about the rationale behind the Koulibaly and Kimmich picks? I could probably understand it if it was one of them alongside defensive stalwarts (Santamaria, Benarrivo, Ayala etc) but they do stick out esp with J.Alba and Varane (harsh on him I know!) for company. Is it a specific tactical choice for your set up?

That's worth a sympathy point. Finally Vogts is seen as a footballer again!

. Yeah it's kind of sad how he's regarded like a Bergomi as a tucked in RCB when he was much more than that.

The terrier Berti Vogts needs no introduction and the German will fortify the rearguard and will form a great right flank with Haßler.

Even recall making a compilation of him with him as a CB (not just to man mark Müller) to highlight the relatively expansive nature of his game.

Got hit with copyrights after 2 years and I tried to trim out those segments and made some errors and there was just 51 seconds left, which ended up getting blocked too ..

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Vogts the new Di Stefano, jesus....

 

[Gio]

It's more of a forward duo with van Bronchorst primarily tasked with providing width. As harms stated, Streltsov was a really dynamic and explosive forward who was capable of roaming to the channels and flanks as required. Precisely why we chose the more explosive earlier version and not the later version.



Agreed. Was surprised by those picks and I reckon Fortitude has a good rationale for them but for me, they haven't done enough to be appearing in this draft, esp against the likes of Spencer and Streltsov. The S&S duo could prove to be the difference in this match, especially against that defense.



I'd say Mackay is the most combative and solid midfielder on the pitch and Veron's industry and tenacity gets underrated at times. I've seen games where he's gone toe to toe with the likes of David's and he used to play in a midfield duo for Lazio in a 4-4-2 for instance.


Fortitude has an excellent midfield trio but does lack a playmaker and as great as Finney and Honeß were, neither were capable of dropping deep and acting as a playmaker. It is a combative and a complete trio but one which would prefer having a Charlton or a Cruyff ahead of them, not two wing forwards, as creative or talismanic as they were.



Cheers

Aye it’s a cracking midfield duo, complementary in replicating the success factors from the Mackay/Blanchflower and Veron/Simeone partnerships.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

https://www.11v11.com/matches/netherlands-v-austria-25-september-1957-226979/
https://cloud.mail.ru/public/4QmB/3ACGSsejp/

Thanks, will watch today,

I don't want to beat a dead horse, but

Picchi: 5"6'
Wright: 5"7'
Vogts: 5'5'

Yea its a fair point and from what I remember Alfatini was more than decent in the air. I will try to watch some goals compilation on youtube to refresh my memory.

In terms of his movement & positioning I’d compare young Streltsov with Fenomeno with his driving runs forward through central zones, with enough pace and ability to roam wide when there’s free space there. Even an older version of Streltsov made those wide runs from time to time quite effectively, and he was half as fast and twice as heavy as his younger self (this may be a slight exaggeration).

It's more of a forward duo with van Bronchorst primarily tasked with providing width. As harms stated, Streltsov was a really dynamic and explosive forward who was capable of roaming to the channels and flanks as required. Precisely why we chose the more explosive earlier version and not the later version.

Thanks, the role does make sense.

I'd say Mackay is the most combative and solid midfielder on the pitch and Veron's industry and tenacity gets underrated at times. I've seen games where he's gone toe to toe with the likes of David's and he used to play in a midfield duo for Lazio in a 4-4-2 for instance.

No questions on Mackay but there is no way Veron and Giresse can match the energy of Cerezo and Hanappi who was a beast B2B from the right side. This is also one of the best uses of Cerezo I have seen in a while. Haan himself was more than a decent all round player

I kind of expected that as many seem to just view Spencer as a heading monster when his game was much more than that. He was a complete centre forward who was extremely tricky, pacy and with ridiculously good movement.

Agreed. Really an all round player. I'd still prefer a Joya-esque figure around there instead of Streltsov. Someone who can whip a ball in from time to time if not consistently.

. Yeah it's kind of sad how he's regarded like a Bergomi as a tucked in RCB when he was much more than that.

I dont think that has been the case for quite a while now. I was not active when you were drafting back in the day but now I think his attacking game has been appreciated well enough recently.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Will check back on the debate and vote tomorrow.

 

[Joga Bonito]

How much work did the young Streltsov do off the ball?

From what I've read he wasn't a hardworking player off the ball and his individualistic and lothario like ways rubbed off the Soviet officials in the wrong way.

In possession though, he was extremely dynamic with great movement off the ball and really explosive on it.



Unfortunately most footage is of the older Streltsov but there are snippets of the younger one in harm's compilation.

 

[harms]

How much work did the young Streltsov do off the ball?

That's hard to say, as there aren't even one full game of his younger version available – you can tell a lot about his attacking game based on all of the highlights, but off-the-ball stuff almost never gets into those. Based on all that was written about him at the time, probably not that much; most likely that he had saved his stamina for those attacking runs (again, a young L. Ronaldo looks like a fair analogy, they've had a lot of similarities in terms of their playing style, and he didn't do much of the off-the-ball running).

 

[Joga Bonito]

Vogts the new Di Stefano, jesus....

Aye it’s a cracking midfield duo, complementary in replicating the success factors from the Mackay/Blanchflower and Veron/Simeone partnerships.

Cheers.

 

[Fortitude]

@Joga Bonito

" Dutch dynamo Van Bronckhorst was a force to be reckoned with on the left as Gio could man the left flank single handedly and was a potent threat to the opposition's goal (as his goal against Uruguay in the '10 WC will testify). "

I have just re-read the opener - are you putting forth all your width on left is from Van Bronckhurst?

It's confusing because your left side is centralised with Mackay and Stretslov both wanting to be in the middle of the pitch, and Streltsov is not going to put a shift in going out wide or tracking back. Van Bronckhurst has both Hoeness and Kimmich planted on his side and Cerezo being opportunistic enough to lurk where Mackay has to help out Van Bronckhurst on the inside channel where Hoeness will drift to.

Tactically, there are a multitude of problems for you to deal with down that flank both in defending it and using it offensively.

Kimmich is a superb user of the ball and cannot be left open - with Streltsov being his nearest man, he's going to be in acres of space for a lot of the time, is he not?

My attacking midfield position is manned by Hanappi in a psuedo role between AM and CM - he was a dynamo in the role a prolific scorer, runner, driver into the box and shooter from distance; he cannot be left open. Looping back to my previous paragraph about Cerezo: his role in this is really to observe how the play unfolds and enter the fray as either a sweeper or pro-active presser in behind the play both of which he was sublime at. His transition from retriever to user of the ball is perhaps his greatest attribute. I think your midfield and defence down that side of the pitch has a real conundrum to deal with my threats down the right who don't have to go out of their way to really put you under extreme duress by way of how they're set up.

Streltsov is not in an optimal position for his game and I believe that causes just as much of a chain reaction as Van Bronckhurst having too much to do at the other end of the pitch.

And that's what I got to say about that!

 

[Physiocrat]

@Joga Bonito @harms

Thanks for the info

 

[Fortitude]

No doubt and I'd say he has better service from the flanks than he normally did when he was banging them in for Penarol .

Also would like to know more about the rationale behind the Koulibaly and Kimmich picks? I could probably understand it if it was one of them alongside defensive stalwarts (Santamaria, Benarrivo, Ayala etc) but they do stick out esp with J.Alba and Varane (harsh on him I know!) for company. Is it a specific tactical choice for your set up?

Kimmich will be a mainstay in these drafts by the time he's done - he's a really special player both at RB and in midfield. I took him because he is a modern day Junior-type who is a tactical ace to have who provides tremendous output with really special distribution from deep or wide. Admittedly, my plan was to get E. Hughes, but my oversight in not noticing he had been taken ages before that point (thanks @Physiocrat ) nixxed that.

Koulibaly's attributes, I like in a CB. I think his stock has been affected by this season, but before that, he's been well worth his spot in a draft like this. I'm not going to take someone on repute alone as attributes are important to me and the guy I really wanted, coming from the 50's, I couldn't even check for footage of, thanks to that site's issues. I had others on my list, but Koulibaly objectively made the grade for me because he enables me not to compromise with my system.

 

[Gio]

Glad to see Koulibaly make the cut in this draft. For me he’s second only to Van Dijk in recent years and flies under the radar somewhat due to not playing for one of the typical CL contenders.

 

[harms]

Thanks, will watch today

Do share your thoughts on that game please, btw, if Hanappi is good in it (as he should be), I may do a compilation.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Do share your thoughts on that game please, btw, if Hanappi is good in it (as he should be), I may do a compilation.

do it no matter of the performance, would be interesting to see him in action