The Virgin League Draft - QF3 - Enigma_87 vs. Šjor Bepo & Gio

[Invictus]

Enigma_87.......................................................................................................................Šjor Bepo & Gio

..........VS...........

Team Enigma_87

Formation: 4-2-2-2, magic square inspired
Style: direct, intensive, high press, try to limit the opposition time on the ball. Close spaces in the middle, try to recoup the ball and find the shortest path to goal. Press opposition defenders into mistake.

Defence:
A flat back four with Tresor/Kompany operating in the heart of defence. Tresor was a cultured CB, who also was very good on the ball, but possessed the stopperish frame - strong as an ox and great in the air too. Kompany is a bit more familiar face and was for a short time one of the best CB in Premier League and probably in the world. Pavoni will be a balanced full back on the side providing defensive cover and stability at the back but also overlap and offer passing options, stretch up the opposition defensive line and put in crosses. Maicon will bomb forward stretching up the play on the right and actively participating in the attacking phase in his native role.

Midfield:
Pirri and Vidal are both complete midfielders that excel when it comes to work rate, physical presence but also ability to take control in the middle of the park. They will operate just off Rivellino who is our main playmaker linking up midfield with attack. Up comes Toninho Cerezo to further strengthen the midfield and provide more control and in the same time defensive cover. Sadio Mane intensity, work rate and ability to press the opposition defenders adds to the numbers and puts the opposition players into constant pressure.

Attack:
Leading the attack is one of Brazil's best - Careca, who is the complete center forward. Brilliant in the link up, great in the air and also fox in the box when given the opportunity to score. Mane will operate from the left moving into space whilst his goalscoring capabilities and trickery shouldn't be underrated. Rivellino will pull the strings from the middle being in his zone and as a focal point of the team. In addition to that we have two midfielders in Vidal and Pirri who has put great numbers in terms of goal output providing additional route to goal.

Overview:

Higher line to limit the opposition time on the ball - we should dominate possession and limit the opposition chances to structure attacks and and limit the counter attacking options they might have.

Midfield superiority: our aim is to control proceedings, hence starting the 4 best midfielders in the draft. Pirri and Vidal were midfield generals of their era, and one of the very best in both phases during their time(Vidal was the greatest thing since sliced bread if we believe the transfer thread at the time). Both are aided by Rivellino's industrious mentality and Cerezo physical frame to further solidify our base. Our midfield and forward line will press high the opposition defence and midfield and generally will look to control the proceedings whilst looking for the most direct way to goal after we recoup possession. We should also be capable of shutting down Pirlo and his effect on the game limiting the space and time on the ball he might need.

Variety in attack: there is various sources of goals in our team. Whilst Careca is the most prominent one, we also have Mane, whose output and creativity is spectacular from the current batch of players. Apart from that we have IMO the best AM in the draft who has scored more than 200 goals in his career in Rivellino, alongside two auxiliary scoring options from midfield in Vidal and Pirri. Maicon burst of pace and power on the flank should also not be underestimated as he's perfectly capable of manning that flank and decide a game on his own.




Team Šjor Bepo & Gio

DEFENCE
Led by Carlos Mozer who became the defensive bedrock for 3 of the best teams of the 1980s: the world-conquering Flamengo side, as well as serial European Cup finalists Benfica and Marseille. He will be the athletic ball-playing sweeper next to 'the wall' Jose Santamaria who is perhaps the most decorated and widely respected defender in the pool, proving his worth for the solid Uruguay side of the early 1950s and often a one-man band at the back for Europe-dominating Real Madrid. Behind him Walter Zenga completes a rock-solid core. On the left Bernard Dietz should offer quality on the ball and defensive acumen-'unrelenting yet fair in 1v1 situations' [Kicker] - shown by captaining West Germany to the Euro '80 title from the LCB position. Supporting on the other flank is the all-rounder Willy Sagnol.

MIDFIELD
The midfield is built around Andrea Pirlo so pivotal as the creative force behind Milan, Juventus and Italy. His Europe and world-beating partnership with Gattuso gains an upgrade in the ultimate midfield dynamo and hound-dog in N'Golo Kante. Bringing goal threat, passing range, ball-carrying and loads of hustle is Paul Gascoigne who was simply unplayable for much of his peak 3-year period.

ATTACK
Nandor Hidegkuti is the centrepoint of the attack: injecting goals (39 in 69 for Hungary, over 300 in his career), creativity (bazillions of assists), and'intelligence 'fine technique and tactical guile' [Sebes]. Racing from the right is Kylian Mbappe whose 3-year peak is starting to look ridiculously stacked (a goals+assists to games ratio of 1:1 and rising in L1 and CL, and a World Cup capped off by that R9-esque demolition of Argentina). Introduced on the left is Marco Reus who should hook up fluidly with Hidegkuti and offer plenty of class and penetration of his own, as shown during his early 2010s peak.

KEY POINTS

• Strong midfield trio with arguably the most effective deep-lying playmaker and ball-winner in the pool. Kante will be especially important here hassling and harrying Rivelino, while Gascoigne offers bundles of energy and defensive work to complement his dangerous bursts forward from midfield.
• Solid defensive core against Enigma's attack. Mozer and Santamaria pack plenty of quality against Careca, but their sweeper/stopper backgrounds can seemlessly track vertical movement which should help to repel any midfield runners. Meanwhile Dietz and Sagnol have the pedigree and fit to match up to Muller and Mane respectively
• Potent and fluid front three based around the original false 9 Hidegkuti, flanked by the full-back eviscerating Mpabbe and the silky Reus. Mpabbe's speed and trickery will cause plenty of problems while the slippery combination play of Hidegkuti and Reus will create space in dangerous areas. Both Pirlo and Gascoigne have the passing range and vision to release them early on the break.

Good luck @Enigma_87 @Šjor Bepo @Gio!

 

[Himannv]

Two very good teams. I've no idea what to do so I'll just keep an eye on the discussion for now.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

I like the diamond from Enigma, but Rivellino is not a magic square player for me. Just wasn't that prolific a scorer or the talisman to lead a line when the forwards drift wide. Definitely should be branded as a diamond and not magic square.

On Sjor/Gio, I still don't know what to make of Gascoigne there. I was pretty sure Sjor being the stubborn manager he is won't change that for sure (which is a good thing), but its not an ideal midfield for me.

There is still very high quality on both sides though, should be a good game.

 

[Himannv]

Wait, I thought this was a typical Brazil 4-2-2-2 and not another take on carre magique. Learn to read, Himannv.

 

[Physiocrat]

That's a 1994 Brazil style 4222 or a diamond from Enigma. Given Vidal there it looks much more like the latter. It is not either a Brazilian or French 80s square.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

That's a 1994 Brazil style 4222 or a diamond from Enigma. Given Vidal there it looks much more like the latter. It is not either a Brazilian or French 80s square.

The OP does say magic square. Not sure if 1994 Brazil was referred by that name too at some point, but I dont think I have heard it.

 

[Enigma_87]

Just to reiterate as I know it was going to get picked on, but the square relevance was just to underline the overall approach - play exciting football, with lots of transitions, aggressive high up the park and a team full of complimentary players that can provide in both phases. It's not a replica, but rather attempt to underline the superiority in midfield, the aim to press high and leave no time and space for the opposition when in possession.

The magic square inspiration is rather the general approach compared to replicating roles of either Brazil or France with like for like replacements.

It's not much different to sell it or brand it as a pure diamond but has few slight nuances:

1. Mane being able to operate wide and give width to the left flank and also help in the defensive phase, meaning tracking his full back as he usually does.
2. Maicon in the more attacking role down the right flank who will give us width on that side and stretch the opposition defence.
3. The defensive line will be higher in order to squeeze the pitch.

 

[Himannv]

I actually thought it was more like the 2006 version of Brazil, with Rivellino playing the Ronaldinho role. Vidal is a more defensive option for it compared to Kaka of course. It's weird because in a way Rivellino and Vidal are actually better fits for it compared to Dinho + Kaka.

Anyway a diamond with a wonky frontline is probably a good description for it.

 

[Enigma_87]

I like the diamond from Enigma, but Rivellino is not a magic square player for me. Just wasn't that prolific a scorer or the talisman to lead a line when the forwards drift wide. Definitely should be branded as a diamond and not magic square.

I didn't want to brand it as a pure diamond, as the approach is more aggressive than your typical diamond and we aim to control the game and get the lion share of possession, hence I thought a relation to the most exciting Brazilian team that had the same mindset was a good indication of how we want to play and also of course stir some thinking into that approach. I know unorthodox formations are really a tough sell, but would rather opt for something different for this round compared to just upgraded like for like players like in the previous two games.

From a simplistic way of viewing it it's an unorthodox diamond as a formation, the more aggressive approach , with Mane drifting a lot more to the left compared to your typical striker in 4-4-2 and also Cerezo being not limited to a defensive midfielder or DLP as he combines both - the ability to screen the defence, the physicality he brings to the table also the ball game to move the ball vertically when in possession.

Rivellino is the main conductor in the attacking third, but his role is not as a main goalscorer like what Zico or Platini were for example, so yes he's the AM here in the Rui Costa role if you may, compared to the main goalscoring threat of the true magic square player.

 

[Enigma_87]

That's a 1994 Brazil style 4222 or a diamond from Enigma. Given Vidal there it looks much more like the latter. It is not either a Brazilian or French 80s square.

the 1994 Brazil side is a good example yes, however there are two differences - that 94 side was doing a lot of work without the ball and generally was a side that played deeper than your usual "samba" approach.

The second one is that Mane will work that left channel a lot better IMO than Bebeto, and whilst Pavoni will offer his trademark overlaps and crosses from the left, along with passing options, he's more balanced compared to Branco who bombed at every opportunity and generally the Parreira side relied mostly on him on that flank.

 

[Physiocrat]

@Enigma_87 Could you please knock up a graphic in the defensive phase and the attacking phase to show how it would work? I think I get it but some graphics would help

 

[Enigma_87]

I actually thought it was more like the 2006 version of Brazil, with Rivellino playing the Ronaldinho role. Vidal is a more defensive option for it compared to Kaka of course. It's weird because in a way Rivellino and Vidal are actually better fits for it compared to Dinho + Kaka.

Anyway a diamond with a wonky frontline is probably a good description for it.

that's good take, but there's no magic in it

@Enigma_87 Could you please knock up a graphic in the defensive phase and the attacking phase to show how it would work? I think I get it but some graphics would help

will do in couple of hours when I'm home.

 

[Gio]

Since Sjor has went to the effort of making an entire video about the centrepoint of our attack, the least I could do is share it here:

 

[Physiocrat]

will do in couple of hours when I'm home.

Cool

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

I didn't want to brand it as a pure diamond, as the approach is more aggressive than your typical diamond and we aim to control the game and get the lion share of possession, hence I thought a relation to the most exciting Brazilian team that had the same mindset was a good indication of how we want to play and also of course stir some thinking into that approach. I know unorthodox formations are really a tough sell, but would rather opt for something different for this round compared to just upgraded like for like players like in the previous two games.

From a simplistic way of viewing it it's an unorthodox diamond as a formation, the more aggressive approach , with Mane drifting a lot more to the left compared to your typical striker in 4-4-2 and also Cerezo being not limited to a defensive midfielder or DLP as he combines both - the ability to screen the defence, the physicality he brings to the table also the ball game to move the ball vertically when in possession.

Rivellino is the main conductor in the attacking third, but his role is not as a main goalscorer like what Zico or Platini were for example, so yes he's the AM here in the Rui Costa role if you may, compared to the main goalscoring threat of the true magic square player.

Fair enough. I didn't see functional issues. Mostly the nomenclature.

 

[harms]

Brilliant teams.

 

[Gio]

We thought it might be a good idea to present the idea behind the new signings, and while Santamaria is rather obvious with being one of the best CBs in the pool (at least until the games start!) and a compatible partner with Mozer maybe Reus for some wasn't as obvious.

In the initial drafting we completely dismissed Reus as an option as we thought his peak is too short, God bless lazy drafting. Then the RR pool came along and we struggled with options so given that we both agreed he is a perfect fit we went to check him out and it seems his peak was more then long enough,

Marco Reus (2011-2014)
Injuries curtailed his time at the top of the elite table, but his 3-year peak was exceptional. This was a strong era for German football as Bayern Munich boasted the best team in Europe and the national team won the World Cup. Yet despite the competition he was widely regarded as the best player in the Bundesliga, winning the Player of the Year award twice, inspiring Monchendgladbach to their highest league finish in 25 years, and helping to drive Dortmund right to the apex of European football.

• 11/12 - 37 games, 21 goals, 9 assists(league only). BL Team of the Season, BL Player of the Season, BL Breakthrough of the Season, Footballer of the year in Germany for 2012
• 12/13 - 49 games, 19 goals, 9 assists(league only). BL Team of the Season, UEFA Team of the Season(after reaching CL Final)
• 13/14 - 44 games, 23 goals, 14 assists(league only). BL Team of the Season, BL Player of the Season, CL Team of the Season

Once the peak was sorted, there was no decision to be made as he is heaven made for this team. A creative offensive player with goals in him that is also a hard worker, defensively great and most importantly a peach of a teammate as someone who really mastered the art of simple football. Pass and move, playing one/two touch football all while being comfortable anywhere on the pitch which makes our fluid front three even more dangerous.
Pretty much the perfect example of his game:

We also wanted to showcase his last Gladbach season as well but sadly with footballia down it was impossible to find any full games(there is a goal compilation for that season with some proper bangers if anyone is interested - he won goal of the month 3 times that season ) so the best compromise was to go a season before the explosion and his great performance against Bayern Munchen. It was brilliant to see how tactically astute he was at that stage of his career and how developed his defensive games were.


All said and done, on top of all his selfless qualities he was also a big game player, never shy of performing at biggest stage and probably the biggest nightmare of Real Madrid in recent history alongside a certain Lionel Messi.


He was particularly effective counter-attacking at pace. Importantly that is likely to be a key feature of this game. Not just through Pirlo's long range passing, but with the potential for Reus and Mpabbe to get in behind Maicon and Pavoni as the primary providers of width in the opposing formation.

 

[Enigma_87]

Cool

Right, so, I know it's hard to present it in still pictures as obviously the flow of the game is pretty dynamic, but will note some basic points to get the gist of it.

First of, I picked Croy mainly because he was in higher position of the goalkeeper list, but I also had the option with him to play a higher line. He started his career as a midfielder and moved to goal. Croy was pretty complete keeper and notable for leaving his line when he was needed and his ability with the ball and pace was particularly outstanding feature, especially during his era.

If we attack through the right, Maicon will be high on the right flank as this is his natural game and the game naturally shifts to the right.

Mane would look for space between the lines and act as a wide forward. His natural game will allow Pirri to surge into the box and his heading game and goalscoring nous will come to the fore.

Vidal will be covering the right side so that he prevents any possibility of a counter attack if we lose possession.

He performed a similar role at his peak at Juve, covering for Lichtsteiner.

The key difference compared to aforementioned French side is that usually both strikers went wide to allow space for Platini as primary goalscoring threat, whilst here Careca still is our main goalscorer and focal point of the attack.

Of course he's not static or fox in the box type and his mobility and completeness is useful in the link up and build up, but his presence in the box is expected and appreciated, especially being at the end some of the passes.

On the other side we have similar setup with the big difference is that Mane will be looking to exploit that left channel. Drag a defender/fullback wide and use his one on one ability to beat him and create numerical advantage.

If Pavoni overlaps, Cerezo will cover for him, staying behind the opposition wide forward.

Pavoni might cross to Pirri/Careca or offer additional passing option to Mane, however he's more balanced compared to Maicon.

An important point which I'd like to point out is forming triangles as passing options and generally is something I looked for when picking players that are comfortable in possession, technically excellent and also having a great motor working in both phases, but also not being static in the attacking third, which is usually one of the problems of such formations, which are overly reliant on full backs (Mane type of player IMO is key here).

In defensive phase is more straight forward as we're going to defend in more of a flat 4-4-2, or 4-5-1 when you consider Rivellino's ability in the defensive phase and him making it still 3 in midfield, without us losing numbers in the center of the park.

The defensive line will obviously be higher than the low block type that Simeone offers or generally some 4-4-2 offer nowadays. Vidal/Mane will pick the opposition wide players and harass them into a mistake - both are very fluent in this.

turned out not to be too briefly, but let me know if you need further clarification on the setup mate

 

[Physiocrat]

@Enigma_87 That's exactly what I wanted to see. Great effort. I really think putting defensive and attacking phase graphics in the OP would really aid the understanding of how a side is playing.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Both very good teams, but really an unfortunate match for Sjor/Gio. Enigma's extra man in midfield is adequately placed to counter S/Gs creativity.

 

[Physiocrat]

Both very good teams, but really an unfortunate match for Sjor/Gio. Enigma's extra man in midfield is adequately placed to counter S/Gs creativity.

In the defensive stage Enigma is essentially a 442 as per the above post so I don't see that stifling his creativity unless by that you mean he has three energetic and mobile CMs plus Mane helping out. I might buy it in possession but Enigma doesn't look like a side that will go for mental possession levels. Probably will be more than S&G but it's not Pep levels.

 

[Enigma_87]

@Enigma_87 That's exactly what I wanted to see. Great effort. I really think putting defensive and attacking phase graphics in the OP would really aid the understanding of how a side is playing.

Cheers mate.

In the defensive stage Enigma is essentially a 442 as per the above post so I don't see that stifling his creativity unless by that you mean he has three energetic and mobile CMs plus Mane helping out. I might buy it in possession but Enigma doesn't look like a side that will go for mental possession levels. Probably will be more than S&G but it's not Pep levels.

It’s more 4-5-1 as I mentioned as Rivellino is part of the midfield so we don’t lose the 3 midfielders in the middle. Besides the opposition is playing 4-3-3, so naturally they will also lose one body depending on where the attack plays out so generally we should have the advantage due to the industrious nature of our side and everyone taking part of the defensive phase.

 

[Physiocrat]

Cheers mate.

It’s more 4-5-1 as I mentioned as Rivellino is part of the midfield so we don’t lose the 3 midfielders in the middle. Besides the opposition is playing 4-3-3, so naturally they will also lose one body depending on where the attack plays out so generally we should have the advantage due to the industrious nature of our side and everyone taking part of the defensive phase.

That makes more sense than the extra body, yeah

 

[Gio]

Both very good teams, but really an unfortunate match for Sjor/Gio. Enigma's extra man in midfield is adequately placed to counter S/Gs creativity.

What it means is that if Engima has a bit more control of the game from the base of midfield, our main threat will be on the counter attack. I do believe our two wing forwards are perfectly suited and placed to getting in behind either overlapping full-backs or a covering unit including Cerezo, Kompany and Tresor. Mpabbe and Reus just have too much pace and directness not to be dangerous hitting open spaces like that. And Hidegkuti was just brilliantly effective at quickly 1-2-ing with other forwards, creating angles and feeding the ball back to them as they hurtled in on goal.

It's worth highlighting too that Andrea Pirlo made a career of finding space and feeding strikers against stacked midfields. Here he is against Spain's 4-6-0, finding space in the eye of a needle.

 

[Gio]

On Sjor/Gio, I still don't know what to make of Gascoigne there. I was pretty sure Sjor being the stubborn manager he is won't change that for sure (which is a good thing), but its not an ideal midfield for me.

It's a good point of debate. On one hand I can see the rationale for flanking Pirlo with a pair of shuttlers who would win the ball and pass it to him. Some of the Italian midfields he played in were built in that ilk. At the same time though, Pirlo played really well with the likes of Rui Costa, Kaka, Totti, Pogba, none of whom IMO contributed that much off the ball.

As for Gascoigne, he was simply a complete midfielder so it’s very difficult to envisage a set up where he wouldn’t fit in. His work off the ball was exceptional and enabled him to be a proper box-to-box midfielder in a two-man central midfield partnership throughout his career. He had strength and hussle - look at him outmuscling Ruud Gullit here at 5.20.


This is also a good game just to get a feel for Gazza's diligent covering, tracking runners, ball-winning, etc. Quite often he'll pick the ball up on the edge of his own box after defending a Holland attack and then burst forward on the break.

I first saw Gazza when he was 14. He was talented, but so slow we wondered if he could get round the pitch. But he grew, lost the puppy fat and became quicker. Very strong, with the vision, flair and character to go with it. The ideal footballer, technically and socially. Great value; never a dull moment.

A player of immense talent. Gazza wasn't the quickest, but he was so creative and physical that he could beat his man. On ability alone England have never had a more gifted midfield player. Had it not been for his problems, who knows what he could have achieved?

Or him winning the ball on his own half and holding off some Aberdeen hatchet man here for the second of his league-winning hat-trick here (at 4.00, while his first solo goal at 2.25 is worth a watch too).

I played with him at Rangers and in his prime he was one of the best players in the world. He glided with the ball in a way that made him virtually untouchable for opponents and he was a match-winner, who had great technique when striking the ball. He was also a great entertainer – on and off the pitch! A tremendous natural talent.

Hell even "tactical guru" Ray Parlour paired Zidane with him in his all-time midfield.

Zidane would have to be my holding midfielder, because I’d want Gazza bombing on! We all loved Gazza and there haven’t been many finer English players in my lifetime. No one dropped their shoulder like Gazza

But I'll leave the last word to the doyen of British football journalism in the 20th century.

Gascoigne possessed a flair, a superlative technique, a tactical sophistication, seldom matched by an England player since the war.

Personally I've always thought he married the ball-carrying and mercurial brilliance of the best 10s with the energetic qualities of the traditional British box-to-box midfielder. That's what made him so unique and such a malleable fit to most set-ups.

Spoiler

 

[Šjor Bepo]

sorry enigma wont post much after this, if at all

Both very good teams, but really an unfortunate match for Sjor/Gio. Enigma's extra man in midfield is adequately placed to counter S/Gs creativity.

Where exactly is that extra man? Formation picture is just a front, something you glance over and if you are interested you go into it a bit deeper. You wont go to thailand, see a pair of tits on heels and stick your boy inside. You will take a deeper look to see what is actually happening because thailand like football is a bit more complex in certain areas.

So while on a formation pictures one side is playing in a diamond while other is a 433 - reality is that both teams are playing fairly similarly as Hidegkuti drops into space where Rivelino operates.
A 433 false 9 is pretty much an evolved modern version of a diamond so its actually hilarious to read that we are somehow in a worse match-up tactically.
There is a reason why almost nobody uses a diamond in football even though every fan creams his pants on the idea of it.
Downsides of a diamond?

1. Fullbacks having to do too much
2. Modern game pretty much erased the classic n10 for a reason, when teams are able to defend as a group there is little to no space for your classical n10
3. Who defends the opposition fullbacks? Rest in peace Johan.
4. Side midfielders just get wasted, to many things to cover. Just look at Pirri and Vidal here, what made both special is their offensive threat from a b2b position and what are they doing here? Babysitting for the offensive fullbacks. Id actually buy Pirri role as Mane makes it work tactically but Vidal is a complete waste of talents.

So when you take that into consideration and look at 433 False 9 system:

1. With having side forwards in front of them they have a much easier game in both defensive and offensive segment of the game.
2. While the n10 died a quick death, you still need that profile so what you do? You move him up top and make him drop deep into pockets rather then always being in the pocket. You achieve two things, you drag your CB markers all over and create space for your wide forwards to exploit it(which is why in last 10 years or so almost all the best goalscorers are the ones that play "out wide") and you make a much harder job on the defensive mids who have to be incredibly tactically astute with great space awareness(the rise of your Xabi Alonso's, Carrick's etc. while the more classical destroyers are slowly removed from the game(not all, but most))
3. With wide forwards up top you can either keep them high(lock your fullback back or make the opposition to sacrifice midfielders) or they can track back.
4. With balance achieved on all fronts the job is much easier and they dont have the need of bouncing between tasks/roles

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

His work off the ball was exceptional and enabled him to be a proper box-to-box midfielder in a two-man central midfield partnership throughout his career.

I thought he played in a 451 or 532 most of his career? Any information non this?

@Enigma_87 what with the flat 442 defending against a team playing 4-3-3? Why do you need your side midfielders defending will de?

 

[Gio]

I thought he played in a 451 or 532 most of his career? Any information non this?

@Enigma_87 what with the flat 442 defending against a team playing 4-3-3? Why do you need your side midfielders defending will de?

Sure. At Euro '96 England played a 4-4-2 where he partnered Ince in midfield.

Spoiler

While at Rangers it was almost always 4-4-2, next to Stuart McCall in midfield, such as in the Champions League in 1995 v Dortmund.

Though as you say I found him playing in a 5-3-2 for Rangers against Hearts in the League Cup Final. The beauty though that he was alongside two attacking midfielders in Miller and Albertz, so he probably had more defensive responsibility there than anyone else.

Spoiler

I'm not as clued up off the top of my head from earlier in his career, but for example at World Cup 1990 England rotated between 3-5-2 and 4-4-2. And at Spurs and Lazio he often played in a 4-4-2 too.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Formation picture is just a front, something you glance over and if you are interested you go into it a bit deeper. You wont go to thailand, see a pair of tits on heels and stick your boy inside. You will take a deeper look to see what is actually happening because thailand like football is a bit more complex in certain areas.

Jeez, dude. That's seagulls deep!

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Great post @Gio

Pirlo played really well with the likes of Rui Costa, Kaka, Totti, Pogba, none of whom IMO contributed that much off the ball.

The AC Milan team did have 2 proper B2B's though. Italy had 3 hard workers around him. Juve had a 5 man defense. I think all covered up for his deficiencies really well.

In general, it is likely workable against most teams. Against physio for example, I didn't seem like a huge problem to me and did win my vote.

Especially with Hidegkuti, someone like Gascoigne would be absolutely required. But against Enigma's midfield, it did seem to fall short of numbers for me off the ball which is what won him my vote.

The team is tailor made for a Matthaus/Neeskens type figure (closest in this draft probably is Pirri) who can both link with Hidegkuti in attack and bring the best out of Pirlo.

 

[Himannv]

Downsides of a diamond?

1. 
   
2. 
   
3. Who defends the opposition fullbacks? Rest in peace Johan.
4. Side midfielders just get wasted, to many things to cover. Just look at Pirri and Vidal here, what made both special is their offensive threat from a b2b position and what are they doing here? Babysitting for the offensive fullbacks. Id actually buy Pirri role as Mane makes it work tactically but Vidal is a complete waste of talents.

Regarding point 3, in the defensive phase this operates somewhat similarly to Brazil's 4-2-2-2 in 2006. Basically the AMs move wider to cover those positions like a 4-4-2 and basically it will be Vidal closing out the fullback on the right. As per that system it should be Rivellino doing the same on the left, but it looks like Enigma has Mane doing that job here. Anyway, defending the flanks is not really a problem with this system and tactics.

The problems for Enigma lie in the attacking phase as you suggested in point 4. The wide midfielders in his tactics are doing too much covering to properly smash you in the attacking phase. Basically a more attacking player than Vidal and more rampaging attacking fullback than Pavoni (think R. Carlos) will suit him more.

As per his images, the attacking from the right is flawed because of Vidal's position and it's all a bit too defensive. He's sort of fixed that issue when attacking from the left with Pirri attacking more and Cerezo actually doing his job properly, however it's a different tactic entirely because of Mane's position. It's like they're overloading the flanks on the left but not on the right. In general it's all a bit too uneven unless it's a tactic to stop a specific opposition player or team, but that's not the case here. I'm a big believer in tactics being consistent on both flanks if it's a general tactic.

 

[Himannv]

Not sure what Edgar is talking about in terms of the extra man in midfield. Both teams are quite similar in terms of setup as Sjor said. However, I'm more curious about SjorGio's defensive setup than the offensive one, which is quite straightforward. In the defensive phase both teams operate differently from what I can guess.

 

[Gio]

Dietz probably flies under the radar a little by virtue of falling out with Breitner and so forth.

• 3rd highest rated outfielder behind Beckenbauer and Vogts in the Bundesliga in its pomp through the 1970s
• 7 times in the Bundesliga Team of the Season and highest rated outfield player in 1977/78
• captained West Germany to Euro '80 success
• consistent flank dominator, scoring more goals than pretty much all of the best attacking LBs (Brehme, Carlos, Marcelo, Facchetti, Krol, Gordillo, Branco)
• tactically flexible - spent his prime at LB, moved to LCB and ended up at sweeper. Gives us easy options to manage the ebb and flow of the game.

Bernard ‘Enatz’ Dietz started out as a left winger in 1970 playing for MSV Duisburg. In the summer of 1972 he was withdrawn to the left back position where he established himself as a very good attacking full back. A player with a pretty good technique, he was notable for his high work ethic and was unrelenting yet fair in one-on-one situations. In 17 years as a professional he was booked only 11 times and never sent-off. He is the defensive player with the highest amount of goals scored in Bundesliga history (76 goals). With his never say die mentality, dynamism, willingness to run and fight at all costs and self-sacrificial mentality he became one of the best left backs of the 1970s. He also managed to keep a high level of consistency between 1970 and 1985 when he almost never missed a game in all those years (played in 494 of 510 possible games). When Paul Breitner left for Spain after the 1974 World Cup Dietz became his successor in the left back position. He became captain of the German national team in 1978. In 1981 he expressed his dissent towards Jupp Derwall’s decision to bring Paul Breitner back to the national team. Derwall had decided to rely fully on Breitner and to build the team around his demands, something that Dietz was critical of. As a consequence, Derwall decided to drop Dietz, the captain of his team, and handed the captaincy to Karl-Heinz Rummenigge. An undeserving end to a great international career which had culminated in winning the European Championship in Italy just a year before. Fr0m 1982 onwards Bernard Dietz picked up the role of sweeper, as the full back position began to be too demanding for a player of 34 years at that time. As a sweeper for Schalke 04 he played until in 1987 and retired at the ripe age of 39 years.

Dietz against a few quality opponents:

On August 6, 1977 Duisburg met for the season opener in front of home crowd on the Hamburger SV with new signing star Kevin Keegan . With an outstanding defensive performance, Dietz was able to defend himself against the English striker and made possible a 5-2 success of his team

Only weeks later followed another remarkable game, as on November 5, Bayern traveled to Duisburg. The left-back was mainly responsible for defensive work against his Germany team-mate Karl-Heinz Rummenigge.
Rummenigge was kept silent for most of the game by Dietz with Duisburg winning 6-3 against a team that also included Gerd Muller.

 

[Himannv]

@Gio how do you guys plan on countering the flank overloading Enigma seems to be doing on your right? He's getting Mane, Pirri, Pavoni, and Rivellino all up the pitch and attacking that area. Careca plays as the CF and occupies the CBs.

You have Sagnol and probably Kante there. Does Gazza go over there as well or are you counting on Pirlo to keep tabs on Rivellino?

 

[Gio]

@Gio how do you guys plan on countering the flank overloading Enigma seems to be doing on your right? He's getting Mane, Pirri, Pavoni, and Rivellino all up the pitch and attacking that area. Careca plays as the CF and occupies the CBs.

You have Sagnol and probably Kante there. Does Gazza go over there as well or are you counting on Pirlo to keep tabs on Rivellino?

1. With a 4-3-3 with four players already in wide positions, we are well placed to handle threats down the flanks. We do not need to juggle players around - they are already there on the flanks.
2. In this specific scenario, it's simply about sliding the defence and midfield across. This happens naturally in any phase of the game when the ball is moved wide. As per the previous post, Dietz is proven to a high level at LCB in a back three for West Germany (next Stielike and Forster). He can tuck in to help out in the centre, Mozer can slide across picking up Careca (and he is a great match for his aerial ability), and that allows Santamaria and Sagnol to proactively deal with the threat. In addition, we'd expect Kanté to be balls-deep in recovering possession as is his forté. Particularly in and around the area that Rivellino would operate. And then Gazza and Pirlo would help out too subject to the where Enigma's midfielders are located (Hidegkuti's natural movement would occupy Cerezo too). Mpabbe has proven himself tracking a full-back well too, although arguably he'd be more dangerous breaking when possession is turned over. So a lot of options, a lot of players to call upon to squeeze out the threat without having to juggle players around different sides of the park.

 

[Himannv]

Yeah, I wouldn’t expect Mbappe to track back. Ruins the option to counter.

 

[Enigma_87]

@Enigma_87 what with the flat 442 defending against a team playing 4-3-3? Why do you need your side midfielders defending will de?

It’s 3 in the middle with Rivellino as I mentioned to physio above as he will actively participate.
Also it’s only Vidal that could defend wide if the opposition full back bombs forward. If not naturally he will shore up in the middle. On the other side it’s mane that will keep tabs on the full back. It’s pretty natural defensive roles that wouldn’t really differentiate from a 4-3-3 per say with 2 industrious wide forwards.

 

[Invictus]

Match Rules

2. In the event of a draw, the winner shall be decided on the basis of Redcafe Goalkeeper Rankings. In case both goalkeepers are not on the list, the winner will be decided by a neutral.

Redcafe's All-Time Top 20. Goalkeepers | Results

Tough luck, but well played @Enigma_87. @Šjor Bepo and @Gio advance to the semi-finals.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Wow, Enigma lost? When I voted, he was miles ahead.

The reinforcement pool now though

 

[Šjor Bepo]

good game @Enigma_87