The Virgin League Draft - SF2 - GodShaveTheQueen vs. Joga Bonito & Theon

[Invictus]

GodShaveTheQueen........................................................................................................Joga Bonito & Theon

..........VS............

Team GodShaveTheQueen

THEME
Carré Magique setup of France 1984 marries the Joga Bonito of Brazil 1982

PLAYING STYLE
Attacking - Beat Joga Bonito using Joga Bonito

MIDFIELD

While I have two players from the Brazil 1982 squad in midfield, the actual midfield is setup like France 1984.

Omar Sivori replaces Michel Platini - If there is anyone in this pool who could have played the Platini or Zico role, it is Sivori. What you need is someone with immense creativity, someone who could dribble past opponents for fun and someone who could score a shit tonne of goals. Sivori ticks all those boxes.

Socrates replaces Alain Giresse - This doesn't even need any sort of explanation as it is an upgrade in every sense of the word. Can play second fiddle to the more dominant player ahead of him, yet could leave a big mark on the game. Socrates having played the exact same role alongside Zico makes him an unquestionable fit.

Billy Bremner replaces Jean Tigana - So to replace Tigana, you need someone with shit loads of energy to run up and down all over the pitch and contribute in both phases of the game. I honestly can't think of anyone better than Bremner in this pool. Not even the likes of Pirri and Seedorf would be as good a close match to Tigana as Bremner is IMO.

Toninho Cerezo replaces Luis Fernandez - Like with Socrates, this is also a huge upgrade in every sense of the word. Cerezo played in a very similar setup obviously, could do everything Fernandez did, only way better.

CENTRE BACKS

With respect to the theme, my idea of the defense was to have two CB's who were obviously very good defensively but also good on the ball. Joga Bonito can't be half hearted. If football has to be an art, you can't have any half measures. So in come Leonardo Bonucci and Rune Bratseth, both great defenders and excellent on the ball.

Some would argue that Germano is good on the ball as well having played as DM too, so why does he get dropped? Simple. Alberto Spencer being supplied by David Beckham would mean that having 1 CB good in the air wont be bullet proof. While Rune Bratseth stands at 6'4, incomes Leonardo Bonucci standing at 6'3. You can't do better than that.

FULL BACKS

I didn't want anyone gung ho who while being a great attacker can be a vulnerability in defense. I wanted players who while being great going forward can hold their own while defending and recovering back. So in come Antonio Benarrivo and Maicon. Both excellent going forward and both excellent defensively. Benarrivo obviously was a part of the mean Italian defense alongside Baresi and Maldini and Maicon was a crucial cog in Mourinho's ruthless Inter that could even keep the tiki taka juggernaut in its peak at bay all while being down to 10 men.

Now the very first question anyone should ask w.r.t fullbacks is, why did GSTQ not pick Leandro? Hypocritical much? The answer is very straight forward. Anyone with even a basic sense of drafting and football could bet that Joga Bonito would go for David Beckham and Rivellino. As I said earlier, with someone like Beckham providing crosses to someone like Spencer, its always best to have as many tall defenders as possible. Hence the physically stronger Maicon standing at 6'0 makes the cut.

FORWARDS

The reason I titled this section as forwards and not wing forwards is simple. They are only nominally placed there on the graphics so it looks pretty and symmetric. They would have the freedom to roam all over the front line and wreck havoc. They will assist with creating space for the on rushing midfielders by dragging defenders away with them while also be providing options to the same midfielders to find a pass and let them through on goal. In come Kurt Hamrin and Tom Finney

Hamrin was hardly a touchline hugger and more often than not moved in to score all those goals. Finney's versatility across the front line again is unquestionable. He played on the left wing to accommodate Matthews in England while also at the same time at club level formed a deadly strike partnership at Preston with Tommy Thompson where they scored almost 60 goals between for two continuous seasons between them from 1956-58. Finney scored 28 and 26 goals in those two seasons. His goal scoring credentials were not just limited to these two seasons. He scored 20 goals in 1952-53 season, 18 goals in 1955-56 and 21 goals in 1959-60.

STARK DIFFERENCE IN HEIGHT

If you look at the heights of the players across both teams, you'd see 5 players on my side are taller than the tallest player on the opposition side and he isn't even a defender. To make things worse, defenders Picchi and Vogts are not even half a feet close to my tallest players. It clearly will be a bloodbath when we attack during set pieces. Even though the team is built to play beautiful football, I won't be surprised if we score a couple of goals just off set pieces itself.

Team Joga Bonito & Theon

DEFENSE

Dino Zoff ('82 WC winning captain, 2nd in the Ballon d'Or) will prove to be a formidable last line of defence with his calming presence, organisational abilities and stupendous shot stopping expertise - playing in a classic Italian defence set up should elevate his game further and in a tight game his superiority to Grocsics could make the difference. From the outset the defence has been built with Armando Picchi in mind whose organisational and defensive prowess is pivotal to the set-up. Leading the team from the heart of the defence the Grande Inter captain is one of the finest proponents of 'sweeping' ever - as a player we rank Picchi as the purest defender in the entire draft and his reading of the game and ability to sniff out danger will be critical, esp against Fontaine.

Billy Wright was arguably one of the greatest centre backs of the fifties (alongside Santamaria) and a rock at the back for England and Stan Cullis's Wolves - one of the best club sides of the fifties. The consummate stopper, Wright's immense stature in the game is undoubted and his records pretty much speak for themselves - his 9th (1956), 2nd (1957) and 6th (1958) placings in the Balon d'Or, his yet to be broken record of 70 consecutive international games and being the first footballer to amass 100 caps.
Dutch dynamo Van Bronckhorst was a force to be reckoned with on the left, manning the left flank single handedly and the Dutchman was a potent threat to the opposition's goal (as his goal against Uruguay in the '10 WC will testify). Finally captaining the defence as he did for Germany and Gladbach, 'the terrier' Berti Vogts needs no introduction - serial winner in all formats (World Cup, European Championship, five Bundesligas) who set the gold-standard in his role for over a decade (nine times Team of the Season, and two time Footballer of the Year in Germany in an era with Beckenbauer, Muller, Netzer and Breitner) - without question the best defender in this draft who is just what's needed to keep GTSQ's best attacker, Finney, subdued.


MIDFIELD

Dave Mackay, the man branded by Best to be "his toughest and bravest opponent" was the cornerstone of Nicholson's historic double winning Spurs vintage and ranked by Brian Clough as Spur's greatest ever player (ahead of Hoddle, Blanchflower, Linekar and Greaves). In many ways similar to Keano, Mackay combined his status as a midfield hard-man with supreme ability on the ball and natural leadership ability, with Greaves once remarking that Mackay was "the most complete professional footballer I have ever known". Partnering Mackay is the classic complete package in Clarence Seedorf, with the Dutchman being the amalgam of flair and physicality. A key tactical cog for several top notch sides and the only player to win the Champions League with three clubs (Ajax, Real Madrid, AC Milan) Seedorf was the ultimate professional who always knew how to put his versatility and malleable skill set to perfect use, often tailoring his gameplay to elevate his side. Mackay and Seedorf will be an imposing duo with their dynamic two way games bridging and supplementing our rock solid rearguard and the fluid and creative attacking cast.

Owner of the Atomic Foot, Rivelino was the dog's bollocks. His wondrous left peg was just as likely to conjure up a piece of sublime skill or a jaw-dropping moment of sheer explosiveness. The best player on the pitch, Rivelino's impact is only going to be enhanced by another exponent of the famed #10 vintage of the greatest side ever - Tostao. With the deadly and explosive Spencer ahead of him, the nifty Tostao to dovetail (esp on the left flank) with and Beckham of all people stretching play, the stage is set for Rivelino to exert a match-winning impact.

Not much needs to said about David Beckham on this forum. Beckham usually tends to feature in standard 4-4-2s etc which is great, but he has so much more to offer in a meaty role such as this one. Pretty much the best right midfielder of all time or at the very least, the greatest crosser ever, the Beckham-Spencer link up will prove to be sensational. The man whom Pele himself admitted was a better header than him, Spencer has the best wing supply that he could ever hope for in David Beckham.



OFFENSE

The spearhead Alberto Spencer was THE complete centre forward with searing pace, devastating aerial prowess, jinxing dribbling, dynamism and unerring finishing. Be it dropping deep and going on a may run, drifting out to the flanks before cutting in with his devastating pace or his explosive finishing in the box, Spencer was a fearsome forward with quite the array of weapons in his arsenal - simply put, Spencer is one of the greatest centre forwards ever. With Tostao in tandem and the creative cast behind him, he'll be in his element and raring to hit the back of the net again.

In the second striker role we have upgraded to the ideal player in Tostão, one of the all-time great Brazilian players who married intelligent playmaking with ruthless finishing. Not only was the forward capable of playing the facilitative foil as Pele would testify, his ruthless goalscoring prowess meant that he scored 249 goals in 378 matches for Cruzeirio and 32 goals in 54 caps for the Selecao. In this role there isn't a player in the draft we would choose ahead of Tostão, his supreme left-foot and natural inclination to drift out wide exactly what the team needs tactically, and his intricate technical quality on the ball well-set to optimise Alberto Spencer and pose significant problems for the opposition backline. Not to mention the tasty link up with Rivelino, with the two left footed tricksters manning the left flank and channels for the 1970 Brazilian vintage and their elusive interchanges and movement leaving defenses bamboozled.


Key Points

• Rivelino-Tostao have just the platform to exert a match-deciding influence here. The two Brazilian tricksters were very much at the heart of Selecao's slick and incisive football in the 1970 WC, with both striking an incredible partnership between themselves. With either equally at ease creating or applying the finishing touches, their fluid interchanges and elusive movement could prove to be too much for GTSQ's defense to handle. Germano & Maicon will definitely not relish facing these two reprising their proven partnership again. And that's before we take Spencer and Beckham into account here.

• Beckham looks set to have a good game here and it's easy to see how his wing play would provide the right balance to the potentially nippy and slick interplay between Mackay-Seedorf-Tostao-Spencer. Very much an exponent of quick, short and fast tempo football himself, Beckham's deliveries offer an additional deadly facet to our attack. The side isn't 'just' capable of neat and slick football trying to carve defenses open but it's capable of shifting gears quickly and lethally into other avenues - a quick ball out to Beckham and it's Spencer ripping into the net with a trademark header, or Rivelino/Seedorf blasting a thunderbastard in from 30 yards.

• The side is bolstered by several inspirational leaders, especially at the back - 82 WC winning captain D.Zoff, La Grande Inter's captain Picchi, captain of the iconic Wolves vintage Wright and skipper of the great 70s Gladbach side Vogts and Dutch icon Van Bronchorst. The side will offer sturdy resistance at the back with the resolute and the inspirational rearguard. This could prove to be the difference against GSTQ's excellent attack with the likes of Littbarski-Finney and Fontaine. They'll find it tough going up against this no-nonsense rearguard which is fortified by Mackay-Seedorf and the industrious Beckham and Rivelino down the flanks.

Good luck @GodShaveTheQueen @Joga Bonito @Theon!

 

[Joga Bonito]

Voting for myself to see the score. Good luck @GodShaveTheQueen

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Interesting tactics from scrappy, fair play!

btw height is one thing and i agree its a massive advantage but only if you have quality headers withing those "giants"......cant remember many header goals from Bonucci(though remember few volleys that even best attackers would be proud of!), cant see Maicon being an issue and even though i have no clue about him, Socrates doesnt strike me as someone that would be good at it
Though against the midgets you really need one great attacker and a good delivery man so how good were bratseth and cerezo?

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

btw height is one thing and i agree its a massive advantage but only if you have quality headers withing those "giants".

Its not just about scoring headers. You have flick on, second balls going in.

Best examples being 1999 UCL final. Both goals, flick ons and not direct headers.

Voting for myself to see the score. Good luck @GodShaveTheQueen

Good luck to you too.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

also surely that height is wrong for Spencer? seemed taller when i watched him

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Its not just about scoring headers. You have flick on, second balls going in.

Best examples being 1999 UCL final. Both goals, flick ons and not direct headers.

Of course but you still need players that are good in the air and can attack the ball.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

I was really itching to see how Joga sets up because there are basic flaws in continuing with the Zona Mista like setups with their new reinforcements -

1. The Right winger should have excellent pace/acceleration. While running up and down is always a requirement, pace/acceleration is a really important factor in such a counter attacking setup. Take Jair from Inter Milan or Conti from Italy. Both had excellent pace/acceleration which made them perfect for the setup. Beckham for me doesn't have that up his locker.

2. The AM should have good hold up skills for the counter attacking football to be really effectively. There will be a lot of long hopeful balls and someone like Mazzola excelled in holding up play and bringing others into the game. Rivellino is again not the guy to do that in my eyes.

For me, they should have gone with a 4-4-2. Tostao's best at club level also came as a AM or support striker.

Something like this

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

also surely that height is wrong for Spencer? seemed taller when i watched him

He was 180 cms everywhere I saw which is 5'9

Of course but you still need players that are good in the air and can attack the ball.

I didnt research that bit to be honest but for me when there are 5 taller players and 2 main defenders are dwarfs, it is bound to be a headache throughout the game and more likely than not result in a goal with the service of someone like Finney.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

For what its worth, below is the bit in the OP talking about the height comparison (since not everyone reads the whole OP of both teams).
I usually dont look into this bit in draft games, but after @Fortitude made it his war cry in the first game, I couldn't have not checked the heights of everyone involved in this tie

STARK DIFFERENCE IN HEIGHT

If you look at the heights of the players across both teams, you'd see 5 players on my side are taller than the tallest player on the opposition side and he isn't even a defender. To make things worse, defenders Picchi and Vogts are not even half a feet close to my tallest players. It clearly will be a bloodbath when we attack during set pieces. Even though the team is built to play beautiful football, I won't be surprised if we score a couple of goals just off set pieces itself.

 

[Joga Bonito]

Interesting set up so kudos for going forward with it.

Couple of comments to start things off.

Carré Magique setup of France 1984 marries the Joga Bonito of Brazil 1982

Conceptually it sounds good but I do wonder if the lack of a Platini or a Falcao/Zico (more so Falcao) could prove to be problematic here. With a midfield heavy set up you'd need a top notch playmaker to dictate proceedings, being the glue who is connecting it all together, and making it tick, lest it becomes overly congested and potentially incoherent with players playing to their own rhythms.

Omar Sivori replaces Michel Platini - If there is anyone in this pool who could have played the Platini or Zico role, it is Sivori. What you need is someone with immense creativity, someone who could dribble past opponents for fun and someone who could score a shit tonne of goals. Sivori ticks all those boxes.

I really don't think Sivori is the player to replace Platini's playmaking or is in anyway similar to him playing style wise. Sivori was creative but he was very much an individualistic trickster and not so much the playmaker who's going to be playing one twos and dictating proceedings. Whilst Socrates was capable of doing that he'd be playing second fiddle to Sivori here as you mentioned. Don't get me wrong I don't see any clashes between them but if you want to execute a midfield square, you require great cohesion and chemistry between your midfielders and having an extremely individualistic ball hog (fantastic dribbler though) as the centerpiece is not going to elevate that midfield but could only serve to make it congested and less fluid.

And it's a real shame but that midfield is crying out for Blanchflower imo. Would have been brilliant for the tactic that you are trying to execute here.

As it stands i have a hard time visualizing that midfield square and that's before we move on to the glaring lack of a center forward. Having an attacking midfielder like Ballack or heck even a Zico (as a false 9 of sorts) might have potentially mitigated that or a Kalle with aspects of centre forward like play in their playing style.

I do not see a single player in that midfield or the forward line who'd be willing to play such a role. Hamrin was very much an inside forward who was renowned for his incisive runs WITH THE BALL, he wasn't a Kalle/Müller like inside forward who was a threat making those diagonal runs into the box. There isn't a single player in your side who's capable of playing a Foil-like role off the ball or capable of making those incisive central runs which is critical to a midfield square functioning imo, or less it becomes rather toothless with a bunch of flair footballers fannying around with the ball. Simply put, not a single player of yours is comfortable being 'ahead of the play' or playing the facilitative foil role, which is important for the likes of Socrates, Sivori, Finney and Hamrin to thrive. They just don't have that at the moment.

While Rune Bratseth stands at 6'4, incomes Leonardo Bonucci standing at 6'3. You can't do better than that.

I do not get this fascination between just equating height for aerial brilliance. Was Bonucci was 6'3? Yes. How will he square up against Spencer aerially? And Spencer is shorter than him. Point taken though, Bonucci was relatively better than Germano aerially although it's not much to write about imo.

Hence the physically stronger Maicon standing at 6'0 makes the cut.

Once again a weird premise. This is Spencer we are talking about.

Burgnich had this to say about Pele - I told myself before the game, "he's made of skin and bones just like everyone else' — but I was wrong".

And Pele had this to say about Spencer - "Someone that headed better than me was Spencer. I was good (in heading), but he was spectacular heading the ball. In general, he would do it with a burst, but without actually sprinting."

Is having Maicon who isn't even notably good aerially, over Leandro a proven player in the 82 Brazilian side just because he's taller, a good trade off? Not really imo. That's not to say Maicon wouldn't fit into this set up but Leandro was pretty much tailor made for it and the better player.

STARK DIFFERENCE IN HEIGHT

Once again it's this weird obsession with height. Height does not equal aerial ability, full stop. Look at it this way, the best headers on the pitch are Spencer, Wright and Bratseth. In fact the likes of Vogts and Seedorf were better aerially than what your side has to offer imo. Socrates could grow another 5 cm in height if he'd like but that wouldn't make him better than Vogts in the air!!! And the same goes for Bonucci too.

 

[Joga Bonito]

btw height is one thing and i agree its a massive advantage but only if you have quality headers withing those "giants".....

Precisely. Our side has better headers than his side imho, funnily enough

Though against the midgets you really need one great attacker

I'd pay good money to see Hamrin, Finney, Sivori and Socrates winning headers against my defense. And if GSTQ's plan is to ping balls at Bratseth in set pieces, I'm all for it.

Which begs the question, if Bratseth is on Spencer (I'd obviously give the edge to Spencer) who's going to be minding Wright during set-pieces? Bonucci? Wright was one of the best headers ever with a phenomenal leap on him. I can't see anyone from his side capable of dealing with that. That's before we move on to Seedorf and Vogts - who weren't great headers of the ball but better than what GSTQ's side has to offer imo.

 

[Invictus]

also surely that height is wrong for Spencer? seemed taller when i watched him

Source: footballdatabase.eu

1 cm = 0.3937".
180 cm x 0.3937 ~ 70⅞" = 5'10⅞".

 

[Šjor Bepo]

i expressed myself poorly, didnt think scrappy is messing with the heights but find it bizarre he is actually shorter then Gio and Montero! Specially as he didnt look that short on the footage, lanky fecker.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Conceptually it sounds good but I do wonder if the lack of a Platini or a Falcao/Zico (more so Falcao) could prove to be problematic here. With a midfield heavy set up you'd need a top notch playmaker to dictate proceedings, being the glue who is connecting it a together and the others facilitating him.

For me all the 4 midfielders have playmaking abilities. That includes Bremner.

I really don't think Sivori is the player to replace Platini's playmaking. Sivori was creative but he was very much an individualistic trickster

While he was an excellent dribbler, he played in setups with 2 strikers ahead of him and also in setups where he was the Left inside forward and Boniperti was the right inside forward where they shared creative responsibilities and had excellent chemistry. I dont agree with this criticism of Sivori at all I am afraid.

And it's a real shame but that midfield is crying out for Blanchflower imo. Would have been brilliant for the tactic that you are trying to execute here.

Brazil 1982 had Falcao and France 1984 had Tigana. Both extremely different players.

I went with France here but I agree Blanchflower slots in perfectly too if I went the Brazil way. Depends on which team one is trying to replicate and my choice was France for this one as Bremner and Tigana seemed like too similar to pass up.

I do not get this fascination between just equating height for aerial brilliance.

Height does not equal aerial ability, full stop

Its not just 1 player or 1 matchup. Your whole team dwarfs before mine. Its almost half a feet taller on average if you take the 5 tallest players. That is a huge difference. You dont need a Ronaldo to take advantage of such a situation.

Was Bonucci was 6'3? Yes. How will he square up against Spencer aerially? And Spencer is shorter than him. Point taken though, Bonucci was relatively better than Germano aerially although it's not much to write about imo.

For me the Juve trio were all excellent in the air.

 

[harms]

Lovely 4-2-2-2. Not the most obvious choice of a front 4, but on a second glance both “wingers” look very much up to the task. Sívori is a fantastic Zico impersonator, scored tons of goals and absolutely loved to play quick one-twos near and in the box – and you can’t find a better partner than Socrates for him there.

Bremner looks so out of place here aesthetically, even though I believe that he’d actually perform well here.

A lot to love about J/T’s team, but I’ve said all of it already in previous rounds, the upgrades are pretty straightforward.

 

[Joga Bonito]

For me all the 4 midfielders have playmaking abilities. That includes Bremner.

I'm not questioning their playmaking abilities. Just their abilities to function together as a coherent midfield unit, given that you are sporting a highly custom midfield set up with an extremely individualistic player (who was notorious as a ball hog) as the centre piece and with no centre forwards or wide/inside forwards with anything resembling centre forward play on or off the ball in their repertoire!

While he was an excellent dribbler, he played in setups with 2 strikers ahead of him and also in setups where he was the Left inside forward and Boniperti was the right inside forward where they shared creative responsibilities and had excellent chemistry. I dont agree with this criticism of Sivori at all I am afraid.

I'm not questioning his ability to play in a set up behind 2 strikers or him as a left centre forward. I just can't see how he's in any way similar to Platini or Zico and how he'd function as the centre piece in a midfield square with 3 midfielders in close proximity. Platini and Zico were fantastic individuals (as too was Sivori) but their playing style (not being a ball hog, willingness to play those one-two, dynamic movement) is what enabled them to play in such congested set ups and elevate them, even. Sivori is in stark contrast to them, a creative individualistic forward (wouldn't really call him a #10), who was undoubtedly a ball hog, wasn't that willing to play one-twos or at least not to the extent required here and he wasn't a dynamic player with regards to his movement but relatively static.

went with France here but I agree Blanchflower slots in perfectly too. Depends on which team one is trying to replicate and my choice was France for this one as Bremner and Tigana seemed like too similar to pass up.

No doubt, Bremner in particular tends to get underrated and I won't say a word against him. My point being that your midfield is lacking a Falcao/Platini like presence to make that midfield square tick. The lack of a centre forward or a suitable forward for the midfield unit to play off is also only going to exacerbate things imo.

Its not just 1 player or 1 matchup. Your whole team dwarfs before mine. Its almost half a feet taller on average if you take the 5 tallest players. That is a huge difference. You dont need a Ronaldo to take advantage of such a situation.

You are just going around in circles and repeating your "player/team X is taller than player/team Y so player X is going to score goals aerially"

I'll repost my posts to your initial point again.

Once again it's this weird obsession with height. Height does not equal aerial ability, full stop. Look at it this way, the best headers on the pitch are Spencer, Wright and Bratseth. In fact the likes of Vogts and Seedorf were better aerially than what your side has to offer imo. Socrates could grow another 5 cm in height if he'd like but that wouldn't make him better than Vogts in the air!!! And the same goes for Bonucci too.

Which begs the question, if Bratseth is on Spencer (I'd obviously give the edge to Spencer) who's going to be minding Wright during set-pieces? Bonucci? Wright was one of the best headers ever with a phenomenal leap on him. I can't see anyone from his side capable of dealing with that. That's before we move on to Seedorf and Vogts - who weren't great headers of the ball but better than what GSTQ's side has to offer imo.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

I'm not questioning his ability to play in a set up behind 2 strikers or him as a left centre forward. I just can't see how he's in any way similar to Platini or Zico and how he'd function as the centre piece in a midfield square with 3 midfielders in close proximity

You mean he can't play in such a setup?

That is the hugely successful Juve team from early 60's

My point being that your midfield is lacking a Falcao/Platini like presence to make that midfield square tick

As I said earlier, you are really underrating Sivori by tagging him as just a fancy individual dribble who scored for fun.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Lovely 4-2-2-2. Not the most obvious choice of a front 4, but on a second glance both “wingers” look very much up to the task. Sívori is a fantastic Zico impersonator, scored tons of goals and absolutely loved to play quick one-twos near and in the box – and you can’t find a better partner than Socrates for him there.

Bremner looks so out of place here aesthetically, even though I believe that he’d actually perform well here.

I don't care who you vote for, but this is the only neutral approval I care about after failing so many times

 

[Joga Bonito]

You mean he can't play in such a setup?

That is the hugely successful Juve team from early 60's

I really don't see how it's similar to the set up that you are sporting here.

As I said earlier, you are really underrating Sivori by tagging him as just a fancy individual dribble who scored for fun.

He was a creative player with an excellent through ball on him but it can't be denied that he was a ball hog, and he wouldn't be the type of player whom I'd be thinking of when it comes to constructing a midfield square.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

I really don't see how it's similar to the set up that you are sporting here.

I am not trying to create the same setup. Just showing an example of him playing alongside 3 midfielders in a square, sharing creative responsibilities with another inside forward/AM and doing very well.

Obviously I can't prove to you with a real example of Sivori excelling in the Zico or Platini role in the exact same setup. No one can.

Its up to each of our interpretation of him as a player and the role's requirements.

Fair enough if you think he wont be great there, I respect your opinion. I personally think he would be excellent there.

Has all of creativity, dribbling, linking up and finishing in his locker and that is good enough for me for this role.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

He was a creative player with an excellent through ball on him but it can't be denied that he was a ball hog, and he wouldn't be the type of player whom I'd be thinking of when it comes to constructing a midfield square.

I would say all dribblers with great individual skills (Platini and Zico included) are ball hogs in their own right. I mean you can't have a brilliant dribble while keeping the ball for just 2 seconds.

But him excelling in multiple positions - out wide, centrally and up front during his career gives him enough space to run into and express himself while also not 'hogging' things as you call it.

The versatility positionally of the front 4 is unquestionable in general which prevents one player running everything.

 

[Joga Bonito]

I am not trying to create the same setup. Just showing an example of him playing alongside 3 midfielders in a square, sharing creative responsibilities with another inside forward/AM and doing very well.

Obviously I can't prove to you with a real example of Sivori excelling in the Zico or Platini role in the exact same setup. No one can.

Its up to each of our interpretation of him as a player and the role's requirements.

Fair enough if you think he wont be great there, I respect your opinion. I personally think he would be excellent there.

Has creativity, dribbling, linking up and finishing in his locker and that is good enough for me for this role.

Fair enough, i think we both made our stances known, will let the voters decide for themselves.

 

[Theon]

When recalling that incredible Seleção, the names just trip off the tongue – Pelé, Jairzinho, Rivelino, Carlos Alberto, Gerson – all heroes in eternity. Yet, one man – in my opinion – rarely receives the praise he deserves for his part in their success. He was a short, slight, waspish figure; graceful and lithe with the unshakeable balance of a gymnast. He oozed the kind of creativity we see these days in the likes of Andres Iniesta.

He was Tostão.

What made his feats so impressive was that he was a player almost without position, except for that which he himself decided on. Neither midfielder nor forward, wherever a pass needed making, a run needed embarking upon, or a shot needed converting, Tostão was invariably involved. He was both elusive and obvious – a hide and seek champion in plain sight.

Wanted to make a post on Tostão last game as he’s probably one of the most under-rated players in Caf drafts in terms of his influence on games vs his credentials and abilities – absolutely sublime for Brazil in ’70 where his movement, intelligence and playmaking was a critical foil for the rest of that stacked attack (similar to the role he’d play here with Spencer in particular), and then the inaugural winner of the first ever South American Footballer of the Year award in 1971 and voted 13th in the IFFHS South American Footballer of the Century ahead of Rivelino, Sivori, Falcao and Romario (not saying this list is necessarily correct, but gives an idea of his quality and standing).

As a player he’s probably the most complete attacker on the park (ahead of Rivelino) – a proper playmaking #10 in possession, with exceptional intelligence and off-the ball movement and a proper goal-scorer to boot – hitting 249 goals in 378 games for Cruzeiro and 32 in 54 for Brazil internationally.

Given how complete Tostão was he could naturally operate across the park, generally as a second striker but also as an attacking midfielder, centre forward (as in 1970) or as a left winger (as @SirScholes played him in earlier rounds). In terms of this team he’s obviously playing in a fluid second striker role which should get the best out of him – tactically he’s free to roam into space on the left wing (utilising that left-peg) which is similar to the sort of fluidity of movement that he provided in 1970.

There are lots of examples of his credentials roaming / peeling out to find space on the left wing, most obviously the Jairzino goal vs England - Tostão completely mugging off Bobby Moore of all people (as opposed to Bratseth and Bonucci ) then some classic inside left dribbling before whipping in a lovely cross leading to the goal.

Spoiler: vs England

Similarly against Uruguay Tostão peels to the left and delivers an inch-perfect cross for Clodoaldo from the left wing. Up against Maicon who should leave plenty of space in behind we see Tostão posing real problems when he drifts out wide - particularly given the predatory instincts and movement of Spencer in the middle which gives a constant target for through-balls / aerial crosses (something the opposition clearly lacks).

Spoiler: vs Uruguay

 

[Theon]

1. The Right winger should have excellent pace/acceleration. While running up and down is always a requirement, pace/acceleration is a really important factor in such a counter attacking setup. Take Jair from Inter Milan or Conti from Italy. Both had excellent pace/acceleration which made them perfect for the setup. Beckham for me doesn't have that up his locker.

Hang on.. I know there's a tendency within draft games to descend into mud-slinging about the opposition, but your tactical critique here strikes me as a bit much. IMO Beckham has a shout at being the GOAT option for this sort of role even in an unrestricted draft (probably ahead of Figo) so to try and paint it as some sort of weakness is a real stretch.

Ultimately what this role requires is high work-rate, a natural ability to provide width on the right flank, positional intelligence / discipline, and then the technical ability to contribute in both phases of the game - which are all things Beckham has in absolute abundance. Positionally this is more of a wide midfielder role (as opposed to a winger / wide-forward) which isn't dissimilar to the role he played under Ferguson motoring up and down the right flank - in fact it was that mobility and tactical discipline which gave balance to Ferguson's 4-4-2 system (internationally he even played as a wingback under Hoddle) and you'd be hard pressed to find another player who could get up and down in a similar fashion.

I think you've made a pretty lazy comparison to Jair (we’ve never suggested it’s a replica of Grande Inter) and based on that pulled out a criticism without considering his role and what he's asked to do in the side - at the same time though you were quite happy to push back on the argument that Sivori lacks the playmaking ability of Platini / Zico (which actually does have merit), or we could have pointed out the way that your side (supposed to be a replica of Brazil '82 and France '84) lacks any physical presence up front, or any dedicated #9 presence at all, when both of those sides played with #9s in Serginho and Lacombe (or later in '86 Stopyra).

Ultimately Beckham looks well set here to pose a proper threat, the partnership with Vogts looks like a turbo-charged Neville / Beckham flank to me and given the lack of a wide player on the left there should be lots of space for him to receive the ball in wide positions and get in crosses - the beauty of Beckham being how quickly he whips in crosses and his ability to hit a target from virtually any position (his assist to Ronaldo being a prime example - closer to the halfway line that the 18 yard box!). If anyone needs a reminder this is what he can provide from out wide, with Alberto Spencer of all people waiting to capitalise in the middle:



Keen to here what neutrals think of Beckham in this role as it’s not a criticism I agree with at all frankly (plus it would be good to get some neutral comments) @harms @Jim Beam @Pat_Mustard @Enigma_87 @Invictus

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

I think you've made a pretty lazy comparison to Jair (we’ve never suggested it’s a replica of Grande Inter) and based on that pulled out a criticism without considering his role and what he's asked to do in the side

I stand by my lazy comparison. Pace and acceleration are as important as anything else when it comes to the right wingers role in such setups.

While we use Vogts as a Gentile/Burgnich like figure, we conveniently forget that it will require a lot of tucking in. So the right winger actually can almost look like a wingback most times if he doesn't have the pace to quickly join the final third on counters to have an effective impact on the game.

My lazy comparison with Conti also has the same observations I am afraid.

Its a text book requirement for such a setup w.r.t the right winger role in my eyes.

As I said earlier, the 4-4-2 makes way more sense than the formation used here. You probably disagree, which is fine (as long as you stay within the 3 post limit if I might gently remind)

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

lacks any physical presence up front, or any dedicated #9 presence at all, when both of those sides played with #9s in Serginho and Lacombe (or later in '86 Stopyra).

Below is from the OP just in case you missed it. I have taken a few liberties w.r.t avoiding a dedicated number 9 here in favor of a more fluid front 4 that offers a lot of versatility while not compromising on the goal scoring aspects or the wider drifting aspects of it. After all, draft teams should have some originality to not be boring

FORWARDS

The reason I titled this section as forwards and not wing forwards is simple. They are only nominally placed there on the graphics so it looks pretty and symmetric. They would have the freedom to roam all over the front line and wreck havoc. They will assist with creating space for the on rushing midfielders by dragging defenders away with them while also be providing options to the same midfielders to find a pass and let them through on goal. In come Kurt Hamrin and Tom Finney

 

[Himannv]

Jogathon's Leaping Shrimps vs GSTQs Giraffes who don't Jump. Riveting stuff.

My initial thoughts are I don't like the magic square. What brought about the change in formation? It seemed nicely setup for the good ol 4-2-3-1. Did you do it to win the midfield battle or something?

For Joga, I don't know if Gio will really enjoy this game. There'll be times when he'll be up against both Hamrin and Maicon. On the other hand, the other flank seems exceptionally well setup.

Will do more reading before voting.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

My initial thoughts are I don't like the magic square

Why? 50 percent of it already played in the best magic square of all time. So even on its worst day, not liking it needs a very strong reasoning.

I am not sure if you think Bremner is not similar to Tigana (honestly that opinion would make no sense in my eyes).

Or Sivori is way different from Zico/Platini. Again that is an opinion which has only a limited amount of scope for debate considering he ticks most of the boxes. He can't score for fun? Facts state he can. He wasn't a consistent world class dribbler? Footage says otherwise. He can't play with another creative presence in the centre? The Juve example above disproves that? He doesn't have creativity? Well, that is not Omar we are talking about then. Probably some other Sivori.

Long story short, what doesn't work for you?

What brought about the change in formation? It seemed nicely setup for the good ol 4-2-3-1. Did you do it to win the midfield battle or something?

If you look back at my old draft outings or if you remember of the top of your head, I don't like using the same formation multiple times unless it's unavoidable or adds a hell lot of improvement.

Probably not obvious, but it's not just a change in system but half the outfield players have been replaced. How often do you see that?

Hamrin comes in for Littbarski
Socrates comes in for Fontaine
Cerezo comes in for Blanchflower
Bonucci comes in for Germano
Maicon comes in for Chagas

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Jogathon's Leaping Shrimps vs GSTQs Giraffes who don't Jump.

Ha, they don't jump do they?

I know I wasn't arsed about sharing headed goals as it seemed rather boring to look them up, but that doesn't mean the wisdom in that is to assume, they can't attack aerially. He scored some worldies but scored headers as well. Really good ones at that.


I am probably getting riled up at this point, so will take a break. Thanks for the comments either ways.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

There's the other Giraffe Socrates who can't jump

cc: @Himannv

 

[Himannv]

I am probably getting riled up at this point, so will take a break. Thanks for the comments either ways.

Don't be. That comment was made because of the somewhat extensive discussion on height from both parties.

In truth, I almost voted for you based on the height argument. I think height is an underrated aspect of drafts and it's weird we don't consider set pieces and only think about how games would be in open play. But that's just me.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Don't be. That comment was made because of the somewhat extensive discussion on height from both parties.

Fair enough.

I think height is an underrated aspect of drafts and it's weird we don't consider set pieces and only think about how games would be in open play. But that's just me

To be honest I dont usually check for heights as well, its @Fortitude 's fault and now I dont think I will never not check them

 

[Himannv]

Why? 50 percent of it already played in the best magic square of all time. So even on its worst day, not liking it needs a very strong reasoning.

I am not sure if you think Bremner is not similar to Tigana (honestly that opinion would make no sense in my eyes).

Or Sivori is way different from Zico/Platini. Again that is an opinion which has only a limited amount of scope for debate considering he ticks most of the boxes. He can't score for fun? Facts state he can. He wasn't a consistent world class dribbler? Footage says otherwise. He can't play with another creative presence in the centre? The Juve example above disproves that? He doesn't have creativity? Well, that is not Omar we are talking about then. Probably some other Sivori.

Long story short, what doesn't work for you?

It's Sivori to some extent, but more about the front two for me. I always felt Finney and Hamrin were wide players cutting in and they played more like wing forwards. However, I think for the magic square to work, I'd expect the opposite; centre forwards who can cut wide. Maybe I just don't know Finney and Hamrin well enough or I misunderstand the dynamics of the magic square.

Regarding Sivori, if you asked me a couple of months back, I'd say he'd be a perfect fit in this setup. However, my impression has changed based on the feedback I got when I picked him in some draft. People expected him to play a Xavi-type playmaker role, so now I'm conflicted on the kind of player he is. From what I saw of him, he seemed more like a world class dribbler, playmaker, and goalscorer who plays closer to goal than deeper in midfield, but the feedback I got seemed contradictory. Anyway, the bigger concern is the front two for me.

If you look back at my old draft outings or if you remember of the top of your head, I don't like using the same formation multiple times unless it's unavoidable or adds a hell lot of improvement.

Probably not obvious, but it's not just a change in personal but half the outfield players have been replaced. How often do you see that?

Hamrin comes in for Littbarski
Socrates comes in for Fontaine
Cerezo comes in for Blanchflower
Bonucci comes in for Germano
Maicon comes in for Chagas

Fair enough. Good to try something different.

 

[Himannv]

To be honest I dont usually check for heights as well, its @Fortitude 's fault and now I dont think I will never not check them

The height thing started in the newbie forum for me. Someone there picked Batigol up against Santamaria and Chumpitaz (managed by a Tuppet account IIRC) and ranted and raged that people did not see the obvious disparity in height and how that would definitely impact the game. I voted against him initially, but to be fair to him, I thought he had a good point after reading pages of lengthy rants.

 

[Joga Bonito]

Pace and acceleration are as important as anything else when it comes to the right wingers role in such setups.

While we use Vogts as a Gentile/Burgnich like figure, we conveniently forget that it will require a lot of tucking in. So the right winger actually can almost look like a wingback most times if he doesn't have the pace to quickly join the final third on counters to have an effective impact on the game.

Pace and acceleration aren't key to that role on the right in this set-up but rather work-rate, dynamism and the ability to motor up and down that right flank. Take one of the greatest wing-backs ever - Andreas Brehme for instance, he wasn't the speediest or an athletic specimen like some of his wing-back contemporaries or even Beckham. Yet he was one of the greatest exponents of wing-back play that we've ever seen!

And Beckham not being a threat on the counter is something I'll never buy. I mean he was one of the key components to our counter attacking play in the nineties with United ripping teams to shreds on the break! And the best thing was he didn't need to burst a out trying to get to the byline before delivering a cross, meaning the opposition had the time to close him down and get back into position but all he needed was a touch and he'll deliver a pearl of a delivery from anywhere on the pitch.

And I've tried to bang on about Spencer's all round game and his sheer explosiveness time and time again. It's not just his aerial ability in the box which poses a threat but it's his sheer explosiveness and veritable threat on the counter. And he has Beckham, Rivelino and Tostao to count on for service here.

It's fine if you don't vote in this match or even against the side but I hope posters watch his comps and change their view of him as just this heading monster.

Really shows off his one touch link up play in this one but also his versatility and intelligence as he frequently dropped off yo the flanks, interchanged positions with Joya on the left and scored an amazing solo goal, winning the ball inside his own half and dribbling past a player before dinking it over the keeper.

First of all the footage quality isn't great but bear through with it.

I guess it's easy to see why he's labelled as Cabeza Magica (Magic Head). He scores a bullet header and the opposition just couldn't handle him aerially at all.



He might be one of the greatest headers of the ball ever and a brilliant goalscorer (record goalscorer in Copa Libertadores and a single goal behind Pele in the Intercontinental Cup) but Spencer's game was much more than that.

He was a complete forward with his searing pace, making him a constant threat on the break, great link up play and dribbling skills and most of all, he was a really dynamic and intelligent forward always capable of finding pockets of space. In this game alone, he gets fouled by the keeper twice outside the box, with River's defenders being unable to cope with his pace and movement on the break.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Regarding Sivori, if you asked me a couple of months back, I'd say he'd be a perfect fit in this setup. However, my impression has changed based on the feedback I got when I picked him in some draft. People expected him to play a Xavi-type playmaker role, so now I'm conflicted on the kind of player he is.

Xavi of all people? I am sorry, but you have been misled. Trust your eyes and footage. Your below impression of him is spot on.

From what I saw of him, he seemed more like a world class dribbler, playmaker, and goalscorer who plays closer to goal than deeper in midfield, but the feedback I got seemed contradictory

Anyway, the bigger concern is the front two for me.

For me Hamrin's fit for the setup is unarguable. Finney I expected questions and I did provide additional info in the OP to justify his role (pasted again below). Fair dos if it didnt manage to convince you.

Finney's versatility across the front line again is unquestionable. He played on the left wing to accommodate Matthews in England while also at the same time at club level formed a deadly strike partnership at Preston with Tommy Thompson where they scored almost 60 goals between for two continuous seasons between them from 1956-58. Finney scored 28 and 26 goals in those two seasons. His goal scoring credentials were not just limited to these two seasons. He scored 20 goals in 1952-53 season, 18 goals in 1955-56 and 21 goals in 1959-60.

 

[Joga Bonito]

Below is from the OP just in case you missed it. I have taken a few liberties w.r.t avoiding a dedicated number 9 here in favor of a more fluid front 4 that offers a lot of versatility while not compromising on the goal scoring aspects or the wider drifting aspects of it. After all, draft teams should have some originality to not be boring

It is an interesting and a commendable approach but there's a reason why the Brazilian side utilised Serginho despite having a plethora of great attacking forwards and wing-forwards who could have easily slotted in.

Once again it doesn't have to be a physical battering ram of a centre forward, but an all round striker such as Careca or Spencer occupying the opposition's defense being the focal point, stretching play and most importantly being a foil to play off of - critical for the congested midfield square to function imo.

As I mentioned before a Kalle, T. Müller, Blokhin could have all played a good 'foil-focal' like role probing across the front line and having the adequate amount of physicality to go with it. They had aspects of centre forward gameplay in their games and could play such a custom role and be at ease off the ball, hold it up and know how to tailor their movements to benefit their teammates in possession. Not that Finney or Hamrin didn't have great movement off the ball, they obviously did, but they were primarily geared towards receiving the ball in dangerous positions and mainly out wide. They wouldn't really have an idea what to do if their midfield is in possession and needs someone to hold the play for them or someone to play the ball off. And that's pivotal for a midfield square to tick imo.

However, I think for the magic square to work, I'd expect the opposite; centre forwards who can cut wide. Maybe I just don't know Finney and Hamrin well enough or I misunderstand the dynamics of the magic square.

Agreed with that. The Magic Square was excellent to watch and hard to execute, but don't quite think it could have been executed without a proper centre forward, or at the very least a wide forward with centre-forward like tendencies in his gameplay. There's just no physicality and canny forward-like movement for the midfield to thrive off of, or a multi-faceted approach to fully utilise the midfield and the inside forwards's creativity.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Pace and acceleration aren't key to that role on the right in this set-up but rather work-rate, dynamism and the ability to motor up and down that right flank.

In a symmetric setup, I would agree with you. Like in a 4-4-2. In an asymmetric one where him being near the opposition box as soon as possible on the counters to build numbers is necessary, I would disagree.

On the other side was Brazilian Jair da Costa, tasked alone with covering the entire right flank for Inter. There appears to a misconception that he was a full-back who attacked like Facchetti, most likely down to our tendency to note formations as symmetrical, when rather he was a tornanti – a winger who tracked back. Rather than any sort of tackling ability, Jair used his skill at reading the game to anticipate opposition moves and cut them out. Like Facchetti, Jair was blessed with the blistering pace and the stamina that allowed him to patrol that right flank, however he was an even more adept attacker than the Italian, embarrassing defenders easily to whip in a cross or get a shot away.

His role was to charge forward whenever possession was won. In fact, Jair was the outlet for Suarez, Corso, Zaglio and Pichhi whenever they won the ball

And I've tried to bang on about Spencer's all round game and his sheer explosiveness time and time again. It's not just his aerial ability in the box which poses a threat but it's his sheer explosiveness and veritable threat on the counter.

I dont think a single person has classified him as a rich man's Peter Crouch right from the very first game in the draft. His all round game is well appreciated from what I have seen in past drafts as well

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

It is an interesting and a commendable approach but there's a reason why the Brazilian side utilised Serginho despite having a plethora of great attacking forwards and wing-forwards who could have easily slotted in.

Once again it doesn't have to be a physical battering ram of a centre forward but an all round striker such as Careca or Spencer occupying the opposition's defense being the focal point, stretching play and most importantly being a foil to play off of - critical for the congested midfield square to function imo.

Err, Finney played in a two striker system centrally. I have mentioned that at least 3-4 times now. And scored a tonne of goals and was adept with the physicality of the role considering the English league. At the same time played for England providing width on left.

The role is a hybrid of both. The graphic indicates him out wide but the role is that of a roamer across the front line. Again, mentioned multiple times including in the OP.

But considering you dont even think Hamrin makes sense who hardly ever struck to the wing (also played as a No.9 early in his career) and more often than not moved centrally, I don't think you will find anything good in the team. Its okay, that is the nature of draft games sometimes

 

[Joga Bonito]

Jogathon's Leaping Shrimps vs GSTQs Giraffes who don't Jump. Riveting stuff.

For Joga, I don't know if Gio will really enjoy this game. There'll be times when he'll be up against both Hamrin and Maicon. On the other hand, the other flank seems exceptionally well setup.

Cheers. I'm not blinkered enough to say that Gio will contain Hamrin here and we expect him to be a threat but we did fear Littbarski more tbh. We do feel that our defense is more suited to handling Hamrin's tendencies to cut inside.

Another aspect which has to be highlighted is the Tostao-Rivelino's link up. These two single-handedly manned that left flank for Brazil in the 1970 WC with Everaldo barely if ever venturing past the half line. So Gio has much more support offensively and defensively (Rivelino and Mackay) to augment his wing play here.


One of the best games to see their link up. Just