The wing back issue

TheReligion

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I think we all know the club will strengthen the central midfield area next however does anyone else feel that the wing back conundrum needs fixing equally?

Dorgu hasn’t moved the needle, Amad lacks defensive nous and Dalot has been poor in the main on both sides. Mazraoui is far better as a CB and Shaw we are yet to see play it but seemingly will lack the physical ability to provide what’s required.

This area of the pitch is really important in a three at the back system and it feels we are nowhere near establishing who should play either role.
 
TheReligion said:
I think we all know the club will strengthen the central midfield area next however does anyone else feel that the wing back conundrum needs fixing equally?

Dorgu hasn’t moved the needle, Amad lacks defensive nous and Dalot has been poor in the main on both sides. Mazraoui is far better as a CB and Shaw we are yet to see play it but seemingly will lack the physical ability to provide what’s required.

This area of the pitch is really important in a three at the back system and it feels we are nowhere near establishing who should play either role.
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LWB is a definate problem. He's going to have to dip in the market again for it. Unlikely anything can be done i. January with so few teams playing with that role.

Amad at RWB is slightly less concerning. Our organisation at the back is getting better as is the team generally.

As we all know the 6 and 8 are the most crucial thing to deal with. If we can establish more control in these positions it will provide a massive improvement in all areas. Lets hope we can do something in January.
 
Amad at RWB so far is a success this season. LWB a huge concern.
 
Actually thought that defensively Dorgu had one of his better games for us yesterday. Going forward he made some decent runs but needs to find consistency with his decision making. Only will come with experience and time. Dalot though, massive concerns
 
I've got no problem with Amad at RWB. Yes there will be moments where the negatives from him there will outweigh the positives, but the majority of the time I expect it'll be the opposite and he'll only improve. That will swing even further if we improve the rest of the team so we spend more time in control and less time being pinned back. Amad is extremely good at defending on the front foot, it's only when he's pushed back defending the box where he's not great.

LWB is a huge issue, right up there with the midfield. Barring a very significant improvement from Dorgu over the rest of the season it's a position I'll be very disappointed if we don't look to strengthen.
 
We definitely need a quality LWB.

Now, Dorgu has attributes that are ideal in this league but you need the technical ability too, which I don't think he has.

And honestly I'm not too concerned with Amad's defensive game atm because he brings so much offensive threat into the side that I can forgive him for one or two defensive lapses.
I mean, for one he's not a fudging natural wingback anyway.
So no real qualms for me regarding Amad.
 
I think Amad needs more time in that role but we do keep chopping and changing both sides and I don’t think that’s helpful either.

If Dorgu and Amad are the picks play them both in that position week in week out.

I feel we keep conceding by allowing ball’s in to the box and are disjointed going forward due to these issues. Both ends.
 
The only issue with Amad is his natural game is the same as Mbeumo. If he was right footed he could get to the byline and cross adding a serious extra dimension. The whole left side is dire. Shaws at 50% and Dalot/Dorgu are anti dangerous. Think it’s massively affecting Cunha as well.
 
I’m assuming the club also want a pathway for Amass (and Leon). The former is having a good loan spell for Sheffield Wednesday.

We certainly don’t want to drop another Fernandez style cock up.
 
Sign Yan Diomande.

He is like Amad but two-footed and stronger defensively. The most similar PL player to him statistically in the PL is even Amad...

Have Dorgu as a more defensively conservative LWB option, Diomande as a more attacking LWB option. Similar to Mazraoui and Amad on the right flank.

And Diomande, like Amad, can also do well in one of the wide forward positions when needed. Kills two birds with one stone. One would hope Vivelli with his RB Leipzig connection is well aware of him. He shouldn't have too many problems adapting to the PL.
 
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Roger Fernandes looked like a good target for us, shame he went to Saudi already.. But yeah it's a big issue. We can't build anything from the left if we have such subpar options there. Dorgu looked good in bits but too raw at this level. We might not have a big budget next summer. so might look into ou own squad.

Leno too raw and should go on loan but Amass looks good on loan, but would not rely on him becoming top LWB, great potential for a traditional LB though, pretty much Luke Shaw regen. His allround game and touch is more polished then the options we have though, so would be an improvement.
 
It's a big issue also because of the system. Your full back shouldn't be that important to any and all attacking creativity, yet back 3 systems are like this. Players spend most of their lives playing in back 4 systems so of course nobody is perfectly natural at a wing back role. It's also really hard to get the right balance of attacking quality and defensive solidity there, especially to balance having an extremely attacking right wing back. Davies and Mendes type wing backs don't grow on trees sadly... If there were lots of obvious choices you could be optimistic that we'd sort it out, but I have no idea who actually fits that role to improve us and is reasonably attainable.

Ultimately it's my problem with back 3 systems and why I think they are more limited. You're asking too much from players and they are compromising their game in some way, so it's never going to be perfect.
 
Cheeky bid for Udogie? He’s not a starter as Frank seems to value more defensive fibres, but Udogie is great going forwards, superb engine, fast, decent defensively.
 
bosnian_red said:
It's a big issue also because of the system. Your full back shouldn't be that important to any and all attacking creativity, yet back 3 systems are like this. Players spend most of their lives playing in back 4 systems so of course nobody is perfectly natural at a wing back role. It's also really hard to get the right balance of attacking quality and defensive solidity there, especially to balance having an extremely attacking right wing back. Davies and Mendes type wing backs don't grow on trees sadly... If there were lots of obvious choices you could be optimistic that we'd sort it out, but I have no idea who actually fits that role to improve us and is reasonably attainable.

Ultimately it's my problem with back 3 systems and why I think they are more limited. You're asking too much from players and they are compromising their game in some way, so it's never going to be perfect.
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My view to a tee, but more intelligently articulated than what I would have written. I worry that we’ll never find players to truly make the 343 system work. And who knows if this is being instilled at the academy level so that we’re developing wingbacks for the future?
 
lex talionis said:
My view to a tee, but more intelligently articulated than what I would have written. I worry that we’ll never find players to truly make the 343 system work. And who knows if this is being instilled at the academy level so that we’re developing wingbacks for the future?
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Also important to distinguish what does "this works" actually look like. It can work to a degree, but I don't think we're ever winning the title in this league with it. We'll need to eventually transition back to a back 4 system to seriously challenge for the Prem and the CL IMO. Too much quality in the league to be able to win it by making serious compromises. We can be a steady top 4 side with it, but I think that's definitely the limit.
 
Rossa said:
Cheeky bid for Udogie? He’s not a starter as Frank seems to value more defensive fibres, but Udogie is great going forwards, superb engine, fast, decent defensively.
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He's always impressed me when I've watched him, although admittedly that isn't too often. Does look like he's been struggling with a knee injury this season though so that might be why he hasn't started many games, as opposed to Frank not favouring him.
 
Villa also prefer Digne to Maatsen but the latter would be a good option for us I think
 
lex talionis said:
My view to a tee, but more intelligently articulated than what I would have written. I worry that we’ll never find players to truly make the 343 system work. And who knows if this is being instilled at the academy level so that we’re developing wingbacks for the future?
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Or if we should be - considering the development in tactics in the game.
 
bosnian_red said:
It's a big issue also because of the system. Your full back shouldn't be that important to any and all attacking creativity, yet back 3 systems are like this. Players spend most of their lives playing in back 4 systems so of course nobody is perfectly natural at a wing back role. It's also really hard to get the right balance of attacking quality and defensive solidity there, especially to balance having an extremely attacking right wing back. Davies and Mendes type wing backs don't grow on trees sadly... If there were lots of obvious choices you could be optimistic that we'd sort it out, but I have no idea who actually fits that role to improve us and is reasonably attainable.

Ultimately it's my problem with back 3 systems and why I think they are more limited. You're asking too much from players and they are compromising their game in some way, so it's never going to be perfect.
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Without trying to turn this thread into another system bashing one, it's still somewhat frustrating to see our squad being perfectly fine for a 433 with only having to really focus on upgrading the midfield to using a system that requires more specialized players.
Dorgu and Maz would be pretty good FBs in a standard 4 defender system and De Ligt and Yoro would be great together in the middle.
Even our current midfield would be okay decent with Casemiro being able to last 90 mins as he's not going to need to cover as much ground, there's a spot for Mainoo and Bruno could be much better utilized.
Would love to see it tried but that looks unlikely.
 
I like Amad at RWB, and have hope Dorgu will develop into a good option there. Dorgu is too raw right now and needs an experienced head to develop under. I'd love to see us pick up someone for that role ASAP, along the lines of Alonso in his time at Chelsea or Perisic a few years back.

At RWB I'm okay with either Dalot or Maz stepping in as necessary until he midfield has been truly sorted. I wonder if someone like Kamasson can make the step up to deputise in a year or two and save us having to invest in an upgrade in the depth there.
 
Not equally, I think it’s a bigger problem than midfield. I’m talking about LWB specifically.

I really dislike the 5-2-3/3-4-3 formation in general but the only way I ever see it working at a top club is if both your wing-backs, at all times, are wingers who can defend rather than full-backs who can attack.

I’m fine with Amad (though we need an actual backup) but I would rather have played Antony or even Rashford over what we have at LWB. Our left side carries zero threat, all of our dangerous attacks go through our right side, and it makes us really predictable. It’s a glaring issue and we are simply not ready to play this formation until we sort it out.
 
There are very few elite level wing backs in the world game. It is a very demanding position physically as well as technically. It is also pretty clear that the winger at WB tactic that worked in Portugal will be too exploitable in the PL.

So, going to be an ongoing issue as securing 3-4 top level wing backs is not going to be easy.
 
With decent CB options, GK hopefully fixed and AM pretty stacked, I’d say both WBs is a huge priority to address after the midfield. LWB over RWB, obviously.
 
bosnian_red said:
It's a big issue also because of the system. Your full back shouldn't be that important to any and all attacking creativity, yet back 3 systems are like this. Players spend most of their lives playing in back 4 systems so of course nobody is perfectly natural at a wing back role. It's also really hard to get the right balance of attacking quality and defensive solidity there, especially to balance having an extremely attacking right wing back. Davies and Mendes type wing backs don't grow on trees sadly... If there were lots of obvious choices you could be optimistic that we'd sort it out, but I have no idea who actually fits that role to improve us and is reasonably attainable.

Ultimately it's my problem with back 3 systems and why I think they are more limited. You're asking too much from players and they are compromising their game in some way, so it's never going to be perfect.
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Exactly my view, and why I give Dorgu so much slack - maybe a bit too much. He is given too much responsibility, especially offensively. Why is he one of the main players to build up play, and why do we so often orchestrate attacks from the left? He can do it and he is pretty good at driving forward with the ball, and I think I saw a statistic that he is the most fouled fullback/wingback in the top 5 leagues, but that does not mean he should be the primary method of building attacks, especially when we have Amad and Mbeumo on the other side. Dorgu should be an option, and always joining attacks, but he should absolutely not be that important to our play.

I get it, that fans want him replaced with someone else, but you could pick any other wingback available to us, and yeah, they would probably be better technically, but they would also have other deficiencies and weaknesses that would have fans on them in the blink of an eye. It's not just about replacing Dorgu with Grimaldo from Leverkusen because he has better offensive numbers. He is weaker defensively, not as athletic and strong as Dorgu, does not have his stamina et cetera. Wingbacks in this system need to be close to perfect, like the players you mentioned - Davies and Mendes - for this system to be at its best. It is just soo much pressure and responsibility to put on a specific position, especially when the player in that position is a young, inexperienced kid.
 
bosnian_red said:
It's a big issue also because of the system. Your full back shouldn't be that important to any and all attacking creativity, yet back 3 systems are like this. Players spend most of their lives playing in back 4 systems so of course nobody is perfectly natural at a wing back role. It's also really hard to get the right balance of attacking quality and defensive solidity there, especially to balance having an extremely attacking right wing back. Davies and Mendes type wing backs don't grow on trees sadly... If there were lots of obvious choices you could be optimistic that we'd sort it out, but I have no idea who actually fits that role to improve us and is reasonably attainable.

Ultimately it's my problem with back 3 systems and why I think they are more limited. You're asking too much from players and they are compromising their game in some way, so it's never going to be perfect.
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It’s quite a unicorn profile, I agree. And outside of the two you mention, hard to see any other top level fullbacks who have the skill set to do both roles to the level you realistically want.
 
Rossa said:
Cheeky bid for Udogie? He’s not a starter as Frank seems to value more defensive fibres, but Udogie is great going forwards, superb engine, fast, decent defensively.
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Actually a really good shout. I can't imagine he will be cheap, maybe a few quids discount now that Levy is gone :lol:
 
Dalot really needs to have a good look at himself - he been poor and a liability every single game.
 
Roux said:
Dalot really needs to have a good look at himself - he been poor and a liability every single game.
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That’s a strange scapegoat to pick in my opinion. He’s being asked to play a role he’s clearly not suited to and has generally done a respectable job.
 
That moment in the second half when Dorgu hit the byline, Amad made a clever 'outside-to-in' run on the defender to wait for a pull back to the penalty spot - and Dorgu blootered the ball up and above the goalkeeper and out for a throw in...

It's kind of crazy that Amorim's system is so reliant on WBs and yet we're shoehorning Amad in (who has been great because he's a great player, I don't know whether a. it's his best position or b. he won't get found out at the top level there) and he thought that Dorgu was the right first signing for his 3-5-2. Did he really think 'I'm trying to create overloads to free up the WBs on the outside of the 10s, therefore I need someone like Dorgu to be supplying the craft'?

What I do find equally strange is that Leon also looks of that similar left back mould - all energy and strength and power with little guile. So that's 2 WBs signed on the left with neither of them possessing the innate craft required to unpick defences. I appreciate Leon (and also Dorgu) is very young, I'm just talking about the player profile that has been signed to fit Amorim's system.

We're all talking like we're going to get Mendes from PSG to play there or maybe Marcelo will come out of retirement.
 
2 CMs and a CB are a bigger priority if we're going to address the issue of conceding too many goals.
 
Jev said:
That’s a strange scapegoat to pick in my opinion. He’s being asked to play a role he’s clearly not suited to and has generally done a respectable job.
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Respectable? Position isn't his problem - he's been awful at LB and RW. Need to stop making excuses for these poor players.
 
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Roux said:
Respectable? Position isn't his problem - he's been awful at LB and RW. Need to stop making excuses for these poor players.
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Hes not a LB, he's not a LWB, he's not a RWB. Mazraoui isn't a CB not is he a LB, or a LWB or a RWB.

It's not an excuse. They are both decent to good right backs. Been a while since they've had an extended spell as a normal full back on their normal side, confidence has nose dived, and now they are shells of the players they can be.
 
bosnian_red said:
Hes not a LB, he's not a LWB, he's not a RWB. Mazraoui isn't a CB not is he a LB, or a LWB or a RWB.

It's not an excuse. They are both decent to good right backs. Been a while since they've had an extended spell as a normal full back on their normal side, confidence has nose dived, and now they are shells of the players they can be.
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Mazraoui performed very well last season as a RCB. At least until the last two months of the season anyway, and I'm hoping that drop off was due to tiredness (he played significantly more games last season than any previous in his career). There is a chance that the early form was the outlier and his late season form is what would be more normal in the future, but I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt until he proves it wrong.

I agree he's not a wingback though, as so far he's been the worst of our four options (Amad, Dorgu, Dalot and himself).

I do think some of the criticism that Dalot gets does go over the top, and I do feel some sympathy for him considering how he's been constantly moved around in positions that don't suit him, but ultimately he has been poor. If the team is going to continue playing with wingbacks it's pointless to cling to his fullback performances. It's his performances at wingback that will determine how effective he is in the future.

Dalot did have one period in the latter part of last season where he improved and did look a decent option as a wingback. From memory he got 6 goals or assists in 16 games, and really should have had another 3 or 4 assists in that time as our shit attackers spurned some fantastic chances he created. It gave me hope that he could continue that improvement and be a useful squad player, but unfortunately he's gone back to being poor this season. I will say that the good period coincided with the one time he was playing almost exclusively on the right instead of swapping side to side or playing mostly on the left like he has the rest of the time. But he's not going to get to play exclusively on the right seeing as Amad provides much more what the team needs, so once again it becomes a bit pointless to cling to those performances.
 
Jev said:
Not equally, I think it’s a bigger problem than midfield. I’m talking about LWB specifically.

I really dislike the 5-2-3/3-4-3 formation in general but the only way I ever see it working at a top club is if both your wing-backs, at all times, are wingers who can defend rather than full-backs who can attack.

I’m fine with Amad (though we need an actual backup) but I would rather have played Antony or even Rashford over what we have at LWB. Our left side carries zero threat, all of our dangerous attacks go through our right side, and it makes us really predictable. It’s a glaring issue and we are simply not ready to play this formation until we sort it out.
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Isn't that cyclical for us. :)
I remember we had a good left side with Rashford, Alexis, Shaw, pogba all preferring the left, and we had nobody to play on thr right.
 
If Mantato or Kamason could be promoted in this area that would be huge for us. No sign of that as of yet though.
 
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