It's how the coach prefers to play.
The wing back issue
- Thread starter TheReligion
- Start date
Going forward, yes. But there are worrying signs defensively. Twice in a row we have lost leads allowing a pair in quick succession. One of those was Amad being outmuscled in the box, the other three I believe off breakthroughs down that flank. He's not a defender, lacks strength AND is playing a position that is extremely vulnerable defensively to begin with.
What do you think the logic is behind it?
We conceded so many goals last season from the cutback from the byline. Having a left footed right wing back negates that opportunity for to score in their way.
Funnily enough, I think the two ideal candidates for additional options at LWB, are Ivorian compatriots of Amad Diallo - who both happen to be the two fastest players in the Bundesliga this season. Both would offer slightly more attacking alternatives to the defensively strong Dorgu, with potential to develop.
I keep mentioning Yan Diomande, two-footed, fantastic dribbler so can go either inside or outside and play either flank. He has mostly played as a winger for Leipzig, but is stronger defensively than Amad so WB should suit him well. Funnily enough, the PL player he is most statistically similar to is... Amad. About to turn 19, seemingly.
The other is Bazoumana Toure at Hoffenheim. He is left-footed and has actually played LWB for Hoffenheim a couple of times this season. He's a flying machine, more capable than Dorgu of dribbling round the outside of the opponent to reach the byline, and also looks to have better crossing technique than Dorgu as well. He is a bit on the smaller side, so might be a bit closer to Diallo defensively, but he has a decent leap on him I don't think quite as liable to get caught out as Amad. The most similar player stats wise to him in the PL is Minteh, but with him being left-footed at LWB he'd maybe be more like a left-sided Frimpong. 19 years old, seemingly.
Diomande would be my pick as he's probably the slightly better player at the moment and has the advantage of also being able to play as a wide forward in Amorim's system, but Toure would be a cheaper option and more of a traditional, natural wing-back who can offer something a bit different to Dorgu.
I keep mentioning Yan Diomande, two-footed, fantastic dribbler so can go either inside or outside and play either flank. He has mostly played as a winger for Leipzig, but is stronger defensively than Amad so WB should suit him well. Funnily enough, the PL player he is most statistically similar to is... Amad. About to turn 19, seemingly.
The other is Bazoumana Toure at Hoffenheim. He is left-footed and has actually played LWB for Hoffenheim a couple of times this season. He's a flying machine, more capable than Dorgu of dribbling round the outside of the opponent to reach the byline, and also looks to have better crossing technique than Dorgu as well. He is a bit on the smaller side, so might be a bit closer to Diallo defensively, but he has a decent leap on him I don't think quite as liable to get caught out as Amad. The most similar player stats wise to him in the PL is Minteh, but with him being left-footed at LWB he'd maybe be more like a left-sided Frimpong. 19 years old, seemingly.
Diomande would be my pick as he's probably the slightly better player at the moment and has the advantage of also being able to play as a wide forward in Amorim's system, but Toure would be a cheaper option and more of a traditional, natural wing-back who can offer something a bit different to Dorgu.
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He said he likes the dynamic of two lefties on the right. He says it makes his system work better in attack. Given what Mbuemo and Amad do together one can see why. Personally I'm never a fan of utlilizing inside out wide players. Even more so in a wingback system.
Ola Aina. Seriously.
I just wonder what those dynamics are and why it makes the system work better?
Two very good players will always make something work, but to me, it feels like were leaving something on the table.
We have seen Arsenal so many times score from Saka coming inside, then playing the reverse ball with his left, through the lines to an overlapping right footed full back. It feels like we lose that option with two left footers.
I dont mind it. It allows for more interplay with midfielders and the forward, gives the winger a better chance of being able to get a shot off with their strong foot and allows the full backs more space to overlap. I just think it needs to be combined with a full back/wing back on the correct side.
That's only really an issue if you're utilising very one footed players though, both Mbeumo and Amad are perfectly capable of enacting the scenario you've just laid out. Needing a reasonably two footed wing back might limit the options a bit more but that's clearly the ask. Quenda at Sporting whenever I watched highlights routinely went on the outside to the byline and reversed with his 10. Speaking of Quenda I still think Amorim wanted him and Amad as his wing backs but it obviously fell through.
It's also why Dalot doesn't work on the left as he's so limited that suddenly you can't go on the inside or outside so the play stops. I'm sure we'll look to fix this in the summer unless Amorim is sacked.
Amad may be capable, but his natural instinct it to always cut in on his left. I posted a criminal waste of a chance v Fulham earlier in this thread.
Another v Forest. Perfect ball from Mbeumo to give Amad the change to get in behind....
But he chooses to cut back into traffic onto his left....
And take a shot that ended up closer to the corner flag than the goal....
Yeah, Quenda would have been great. Or i would like to see Amad moved over to see what he can do at left wing back.
It's weird seeing many of the potential players would have been good fits at other clubs where they haven't succeeded yet.
Ait Nouri
Kerkez
Frimpong
Amad works great on the right with Mbeumo if you ask me. Dorgu is still developing, but we need more for competition. Dalot is consistently not good enough.
A prime Valencia, Victor Moses or Alonso (the idiot) would have been great players for this system.
Best option is getting Muñoz from Palace or some big talent from other leagues. We should've punted on Cucurella when he was available and not in Chelsea's plans.
Ait Nouri
Kerkez
Frimpong
Amad works great on the right with Mbeumo if you ask me. Dorgu is still developing, but we need more for competition. Dalot is consistently not good enough.
A prime Valencia, Victor Moses or Alonso (the idiot) would have been great players for this system.
Best option is getting Muñoz from Palace or some big talent from other leagues. We should've punted on Cucurella when he was available and not in Chelsea's plans.
I wonder too! But it worked for him at sporting where he had Quenda and Trincao on the same side. Now Amad and Mbuemo are replicating it.
Indeed
I agree it combines better with a correct side fullback. But few things have given me more personal joy in recent football than witnessing a Raphinha have a balon dor level season as a natural side wide player/attacker. It showed that there was no good reason why it went out of style in the pursuit of more goals for attacking wide players.
If we desire a natural right sider. It has to be Munoz.
Yan Diomande is the answer. He is like Diallo but genuinely two-footed and stronger. Can go both inside and outside. Would be ideal as a more attacking LWB option.
No doubt he’ll be sold for a massive fee off 100m even if he’s just 18 years old. United would need to act fast as I assume other clubs will be all over signing him in the next transfer window.
If there ever was a game to bump this after it was Monday night. This really is an equal problem to the CM one in this system.
https://www.skysports.com/football/...ck-like-amad-diallo-for-his-system-to-improve
https://www.skysports.com/football/...ck-like-amad-diallo-for-his-system-to-improve
It’s a serious issue. We are so dependent on this position to create chances and the options we have are detrimental. Dorgu should not be a regular starter, Dalot and Mazraoui should never be considered there unless there’s a major injury crisis. We need two more if we are sticking with Amorim
Assuming that they will back Amorim no matter what, then yes, a left wing back who can attack and defend is essential for this system.
For what its worth - whether we stick to Amorim or not, we need players of a similar profile anyways. Because if we go back to a 4atb formation, we still find ourselves with rather subpar fullback options that haven't contributed anything of note when it comes to attacking output which would only be not an issue in systems where the attacking wing options are capable of a) keeping width AND b) providing great output. We are far away from that.
I still think though, that this whole "wingbacks are essential to this system is overstated". I mean, yes, if we play fullbacks there who were shit at contributing in attack before, then yes, thats an obvious disadvantage. But there is no need of this crazy exotic specialized player. People forget that our 3-4-3 iteration has a very strong spine through the middle when it comes to numbers, 3 nominal CBs, 2 central midfielders, 2 attacking midfielders and a striker who either play in the centre or in the half spaces. For the numbers we have there, we don't get much from it. This isn't just down to poor quality of our options but also because opposition can afford to block the centre since our wide options aren't great, but it isn't as if that system could only work, if we manage to bring in prime Hakimi.
Our midfield is pretty poor, we don't have a good striker either (might become good), and almost definitely we will try to upgrade Shaw in the summer. Our spine isn't good.
On top of that Cunha is having a bit of a poor season.
Options from wide, be it wide forwards or wing backs have been an issue for years.
We've been struggling since Ole's last season in that regard. Too many have been moments players or just full on failures.
As always good recruitment is the only answer and something has to be done in January.
Either sign one or bring back Ennis/Williams from loan as options.
We've been struggling since Ole's last season in that regard. Too many have been moments players or just full on failures.
As always good recruitment is the only answer and something has to be done in January.
Either sign one or bring back Ennis/Williams from loan as options.
Simple change the formation so we have a,right back and left back and 2 centre halfs. Ball winning midfielder, 2 wingers, another physical centre midfielder and 2 good centre forwards
I love Diomande and was actually saying we should poach him from Leganes before another club comes in. In his limited minutes when he burst onto the scene, his stats were eye popping and you can't coach the speed that he has. Leipzig now consider him their next 100m player so I don't think they will sell him for anything below a significant fee. They can see the incredible progression he has made and will want to keep him for at least another season so that he can increase his value.
Bazaoumana may be a more achievable target. Equally speedy as Diomande but not as physical. He could form a dynamic wingback duo with Amad on the other side
With Amorim coming out and saying he would like a player similar to Amad but with a right foot for the attacking LWB role, that would rule out Bazoumana.
Diomande, as with Semenyo, is two-footed, and both seem ideal candidates for the role.
Even though Leipzig would like to keep him, surely another Sesko level fee would get it done.
A large part of it is simply about attacking numbers and the balance of the team. If Amad isn't at RWB it means we effectively only have three attacking players on the field, which simply isn't enough and makes it significantly more difficult for the attacking players we do have (as the opposition team always have a fairly large numerical advantage when defending). It's why, even though Amad is a better attacker than someone like a Mount or Zirkzee, the attack as a whole will normally function better with Amad at fullback and one of those players in the attack instead. It basically gives us one whole extra attacking player on the field.
Having two of the more defensive wingbacks has sometimes worked well against top teams (although even then I prefer Amad at RWB), but every time we do it against a mid-or-lower team we're basically going in with one hand tied behind our back. There were times last season where Amorim basically had no option as we had so few attacking players available, but off the top of my head I think every time he's done it this season we've had other attacking options on the bench we could have started to enable Amad to play wingback.
It's why LWB is so important to get right at the end of the season (or potentially January). We might not line up with five attacking players at all times (ST, L10, R10, LWB and RWB) but it would give us the option to do so and would also mean we should almost always have four at least.
How many wingbacks in the PL can actually do what Amorim wants? To be ultra aggressive in attacking zones and defend.
Only players I can think of are Calafiori, Gvardiol and Munoz. Nico O’Reily, Lewis Hall, Kayode and Frimpong are possibilities too but the point is what he wants from wing backs is extremely difficult.
It’s far easier to find a balanced full back and play and extra attacker than to find a wingback who can attack like a forward. If you have these players then by all means play the system but for the most part most full backs will look as bad as Mazraoui, Dalot and Dorgu have been there because it’s just not their role.
Only players I can think of are Calafiori, Gvardiol and Munoz. Nico O’Reily, Lewis Hall, Kayode and Frimpong are possibilities too but the point is what he wants from wing backs is extremely difficult.
It’s far easier to find a balanced full back and play and extra attacker than to find a wingback who can attack like a forward. If you have these players then by all means play the system but for the most part most full backs will look as bad as Mazraoui, Dalot and Dorgu have been there because it’s just not their role.
He basically wants a LWB version of Amad. Goodluck trying to find one of them.
Attacking fullbacks has been a staple of modern football for the last 20 years though, ever since traditional wingers morphed into inside forwards cutting in. There will be options out there.
I would say getting a fullback who can attack to the required level is the least likely of the three options we have. An actual attacking wingback who has been playing that position already is probably ideal, but the most likely is probably a winger who can defend. Like Amad.
An attacking full back and a wingback are still two different things. An attacking fullback still makes use of the winger or wide forward for attacks. A wingback has to be able to generate this alone a lot of the time and that’s the biggest difference. Evra was an attacking fullback because he could overlap and link well with wingers but if he didn’t have that, he wouldn’t be half as good at attacking.
Being a good attacking fullback doesn’t necessarily mean you’ll be a good wingback.
This is sort of my point, how many actual wingbacks are there out there that can be expected to operate in the final third and the opposition box but also defend their own box? Amad can do the former but isn’t a defender and has already been exposed a few times in our box.
I agree, the midfield is fairly poor (I lament that for ages at this point) and adding an inexperienced striker is not ideal (I am on the record for not being thrilled about adding Sesko). The thing is, thats not THE system - it is the execution of it. If we happen to find the Mbappe-version of an LWB for next year, teams will adjust in a short period of time and block most of the left side. Then we'll complain about the spine not being up to par. Thats what I mean, there isn't one position that is more relevant than the others, but right now, a great LWB might make it work with the subpar midfield and striker. The team will make a step up when both areas get adressed - but it doesn't need the best of the best.
Agreed. I would consider this more an execution thing rather than a formation thing though.
Just to make sure, I completely agree, that having Dorgu, Dalot and Maz playing in those positions a big issue for us. I am just saying that this isn't a formation thing, this personal and their lack of attacking contribution would be an issue in a different formation as well and while I agree, we should bring in somebody who carries more threat than Dorgu, I am a little fearful of boxing ourselves in that we need this crazy profile that is probably only for crazy prices out there. We have to balance increasing the balance between players in the centre and the wide regions - players like Sandro or these days Dumfries aren't some great specimen that would be good wingers AND good fullbacks - no they work because their team manage to play in a way that opens up enough room for them to contribute.
I don't know about 3atb systems in general but Rubens 3-4-3 isn't a width heavy system at all, hence the wingbacks aren't the most essential players in it. Our issues come from subpar midfield options, a tendency of playing winger type finishers in the 10 positions and a striker thats still finding his feet. Those things won't go away even if we manage to snatch for example Davies. The current team would fare better with him than with Dorgu, no doubt about it. But it still wouldn't be a "real" title challenger.
Evra played as WB for Juve as well. I think the most important thing is the engine and whether a player is capable of working his flank up and down.
Even good fullbacks get exposed here and there in 4atb systems. There is no flawless system or fit. If you are looking for the ultimate fit that is CL winning quality then yes, there aren't many players to choose from but the same applies when looking for Fullbacks that contribute in attack or fullbacks that invert into the middle. Lets look at the latest players who were considered great in a wingback role - Dumfries, Grimaldo, Frimpong*, Hakimi, Di Marco, Nuno Mendes, Theo Hernandez - I'd argue that nobody would want them to play in their teams as wingers when the objective is to go for the CL. But I bet there would be quite a few who would consider them as fullbacks.
The profile we should look for is somebody who is experienced playing down the flank, has a great engine, no issues to get stuck in, decent defensive instincts but a willingness to contribute against the ball, great ball carrying and most likely great athleticism. Most players with that skillset will be fullbacks.Thats what we should look for and have found to a degree in Dorgu. Although he is obviously inexperienced, looks like having whacky technique. But nobody expected him to be finished article that sits perfectly - it is actually pretty respectable for him to come in, get thrown into the fire and hold his own decently well when it comes to physicality.
I see the rationale with this and I suppose, thats where the interest in Semenyo comes from. The question is, would such a player come to us to play something that might be described as a bit of a thankless job.
edit: Just realized that my reply wasn't directed at you but the poster expecting us to look for traditional winger for the WB position. My apologies!
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I think the whole fanbase has got a crash course on the pros and cons of wing backs over the past 12 months.
I don't have an issue with United using wing backs per se, if we had two brilliant, "natural" wing backs.
The problem is we're trying to impose a wing back system on the team with one winger and three full backs, who are taking on the position with varying degrees of effectiveness. And for this system to function, let alone be successful, we need wing backs who can do more than "do a job". They need to be top quality or else the system looks toothless.
And because the position is so niche, and so few teams in Europe use it, where in the f**k are we going to find 4 world class, or even just good quality, wing backs? And we probably would need 4 as cover for injuries or suspensions, seeing as the position is so pivotal to the functioning of the system.
They're thin on the ground, and any club selling them to us would rinse us because they know we're desperate for them.
Ultimately I think the difficulty in sourcing top quality wing backs will be what will stop this system being successful for us. It might take us so far but I can't ever see us challenging at the top of the table with it.
So is it even worth persisting with it?
I don't have an issue with United using wing backs per se, if we had two brilliant, "natural" wing backs.
The problem is we're trying to impose a wing back system on the team with one winger and three full backs, who are taking on the position with varying degrees of effectiveness. And for this system to function, let alone be successful, we need wing backs who can do more than "do a job". They need to be top quality or else the system looks toothless.
And because the position is so niche, and so few teams in Europe use it, where in the f**k are we going to find 4 world class, or even just good quality, wing backs? And we probably would need 4 as cover for injuries or suspensions, seeing as the position is so pivotal to the functioning of the system.
They're thin on the ground, and any club selling them to us would rinse us because they know we're desperate for them.
Ultimately I think the difficulty in sourcing top quality wing backs will be what will stop this system being successful for us. It might take us so far but I can't ever see us challenging at the top of the table with it.
So is it even worth persisting with it?
Amorim seems to want inverted wingbacks, which is strange considering the two behind the striker are also inverted in terms of their favoured foot. I mean, it's working out with Amad and Mbeumo, but you're kind of eliminating the option of floating a few crosses to the big 6'5" lad up top. Maybe the idea is for the no.9 to just hold the ball up and get the others into it, but we're eliminating a key advantage of having the player we currently have in that position.
With Martinez back, we should try Shaw at LWB. We can cap his minutes to a maximum if 65 to 70 mins each game to avoid any injury risk. Short term it is the most reasonable option given we aren’t getting a LWB until the summer.
It's two different concepts. Attacking fullback provides cover for their complimentary flankers while maintaining their defensive work behind them. Wingbacks usually are the only outlet of width and often goes pass midfielders to the byline leaving so much gaps.
Attacking fullback are defenders first and foremost providing another outlet to attack, wingback are flankers first, defenders next.
This is why even with 3 cbs we are vulnerable at defensive plays everywhere. Our wingback aren't wingback, they are flankers asked to do defensive work like Amad.
Dalot is a fullback who should be beside a CB at all time but been asked to attack like a wingback. Mez, dorgu are all mismatches too.
The team is operating at suboptimal levels on the flanks just because of Amorim.
An attacking LWB is only going to get us more exposed unless we fix the two CDM spots. Both spots would have to be able to help cover out wide and we're not really getting enough of that from Bruno and Casemiro. One is too slow, the other is too attack minded.
Playing Amad as a rwb makes more sense to me because if he were to play him as a lwb, we'd have another Antonio Valencia. He would hug the line and whip in crosses because he doesn't know how to consistently go to his right or use his right foot. Our only solution is to have our twin amads switch sides during the match just to whip in a few crosses, or get a dedicated crosser like Diouf who can only cross.
But on another note, Is it really that hard to find a wingback who can go to his left and right, who is also not afraid to use his weak foot? I feel like semenyo would be waisted as a wingback because of his height and size, he'd be better off as a center forward.
But on another note, Is it really that hard to find a wingback who can go to his left and right, who is also not afraid to use his weak foot? I feel like semenyo would be waisted as a wingback because of his height and size, he'd be better off as a center forward.
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INEOS are investing in center midfield next summer the same way they did the attack this past summer. We are getting 2 bonafide starters who are likely ti be bonafide two way players.