The 'you have to set up to play' narrative

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Each to their own - but I think if you play like that you're cutting it fine.

You literally have to hope and pray that no big decisions go against you and you dont make any errors both of which happened to Newcastle today.
 

ypsipeos

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Newcastle are not Manchester United and have recently been in the championship. Results come first.

United should be producing results and good football.
That's the truth. United and Newcastle are different sizes and of course there's only one United. Anyway, we have massive incomes and expenditures, contracts that Newcastle fans are dreaming of. United have a huge fan base while Newcastle have a local fan base. So, we are the pioneers and can't be compared to followers. These are two different teams, two different situations.

Same goes for the coaches. Different coaches situations. I hate Rafa's football, I hate the Zenden over Babel thinking and I know that Torres would have had a longer and better tenure in EPL if he played for us.
Mourniho's type of football was appealing to the eye in the past, Rafa's type of football ...meh.
 

11101

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Redknapp is an idiot and Souness has more than proven he knows nothing about managing football teams.

Newcastle's only focus is staying up. Open up against Chelsea and they'll get thrashed. As it is they almost got a result and have confidence going into their next game.
 

Jcrossley94

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Yes read the post you're referring to. Wolves had 30% possession against City yesterday. 11 shots on target against city's 18. If there's a team at present that could steamroll you it's city. Looking at the same stats for the Newcastle Chelsea game you can say at least Wolves gave it a go and came out of it with a point and played a lot more entertaining than Newcastle did.
I’m going to give you the benefit of the doubt and suggest you’re being disingenuous.

Wolves and Newcastle are worlds apart in their playing style.

Newcastle we’re without several key players and it showed, wolves had practically a full strength side out and they were able to play the exact same way they play week in week out because of it.
 

njred

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What do we think of this?

It seems now Liverpool and City play easy on the eye football anyone who does things differently is given a hard time and criticised.
At the end of the day the result is the most important thing. The media and the younger generation want fast paced football. It’s great to watch and I like the way my team plays but give me the results first. That’s all I care about. Benitez is one of those Mgrs that given the right players can get those results like your Jose(when he’s not sulking and the like).
I always thought Benitez would make a good NT coach with his style and given his navigation through his CL winning season.
Anyway the result should always come before style in my thinking.
 

Ekeke

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If you win the big prize, the league or champions league then sure win at all costs without a lot of entertainment. Winning the league or champions league from where we are now would be the entertainment.

However anything short of that and its not worth it.
 

Dorian Gray

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The thing is, the two can coexist. In fact, it’s the standard today.
If you have the resources, that is.

Newcastle need to spend money and get some quality to do both. It is telling that Newcastle's highest ever transfer remains Owen in 2005 (and before that it was Shearer in 96)
 

duffer

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Newcastle's only focus is staying up. Open up against Chelsea and they'll get thrashed. As it is they almost got a result and have confidence going into their next game.
They "opened up" against us just 4 months ago and smashed Chelsea 3-0. That was no fluke, the last 6 Newcastle away games for Chelsea ended up with 4 wins for Newcasle, a draw and one Chelsea win (which was yesterday, they one time they decided to park the bus rather than beat us).
 

simplyared

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I’m going to give you the benefit of the doubt and suggest you’re being disingenuous.

Wolves and Newcastle are worlds apart in their playing style.

Newcastle we’re without several key players and it showed, wolves had practically a full strength side out and they were able to play the exact same way they play week in week out because of it.
Disingenious or whatever. Benitez set up to play that game in front of their home fans to put a message over to his employer. "If you don't give me the funds then this is what you're going to see when playing the top teams on our own patch" His captain wouldn't buy into that so he was sent to the stands. Whether he was right in doing so is not for me to judge, but certainly not good for the game imo.
 

11101

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They "opened up" against us just 4 months ago and smashed Chelsea 3-0. That was no fluke, the last 6 Newcastle away games for Chelsea ended up with 4 wins for Newcasle, a draw and one Chelsea win (which was yesterday, they one time they decided to park the bus rather than beat us).
You get the point. If Newcastle go out to play football against top 6 sides they've a higher chance of getting thrashed than if they sit back and dig in. Chelsea's own failings don't change that.
 

duffer

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You get the point. If Newcastle go out to play football against top 6 sides they've a higher chance of getting thrashed than if they sit back and dig in. Chelsea's own failings don't change that.
There's a middle ground between what they did yesterday and going all out attack. Parking the bus againt this Chelsea side is dumb, we're not Barcelona from 2009, our defence can be got at.
 

kouroux

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I'm sorry but playing like Newcastle did last night was a joke. They went as low as having 12% of the ball and before any you of master tacticians jump at my throat, possession means feck all indeed if you don't get the right result. I agree with all of that but there comes a point where it reaches levels of flat out refusing to play.

It's even more annoying considering that when they decided to play they immediately score and were more dangerous. Conceding more possession against a much better team is a given but you still need some control of the game and exposing yourself like that to wave after wave is asking for trouble. I compare this match with the one Wolves had vs Man City, Wolves are newly promoted and City are the champions and better than Chelsea. Wolves conceded possession, played defensive (were lucky to have the woodwork saved them too tbh) but they still showed courage and ambition during their counter attacks. Newcastle were a joke yesterday.

There is a middle ground to be found between playing like cowards and trying to exploit your chances when attacking. Benitez was too much of a pussy to try that yesterday.

@duffer: You are spot on
 

Jcrossley94

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Disingenious or whatever. Benitez set up to play that game in front of their home fans to put a message over to his employer. "If you don't give me the funds then this is what you're going to see when playing the top teams on our own patch" His captain wouldn't buy into that so he was sent to the stands. Whether he was right in doing so is not for me to judge, but certainly not good for the game imo.
I missed that interview that Benitez gave where he outlined all of that.

Could you give us the link so we can read it too??
 
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What do we think of this? Seems to be quite prevalent at the moment with Benitez getting murdered by Redknapp and Souness post game for how he set up. Souness suggests he'd rather play football and lose 0-3 than defend and lose 1-2. Redknapp saying fans need value and entertainment.

For me, as a United fan, we get this alot (sometimes unfairly I might add) with Mourinho. I totally get the point, everyone wants to see nice, attractive football, but essentially I'd go with coaches with the pedigree of Mourinho and Benitez over failures like Redknapp and Souness when it comes to understanding how to set up their teams and other factors behind the scenes which may inhibit them.

It seems now Liverpool and City play easy on the eye football anyone who does things differently is given a hard time and criticised.
Its infuriating. There is this stupid epidemic these dayd of thinking losing heavily because you played attractive is acceptable. As it it still isn't losing. Its even more annoying that people actually believe small teams should open up to allow the big boys to steam roller them. I shudder to think the bullshit they'd say about Simeone if he was in England......
 
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I'm sorry but playing like Newcastle did last night was a joke. They went as low as having 12% of the ball and before any you of master tacticians jump at my throat, possession means feck all indeed if you don't get the right result. I agree with all of that but there comes a point where it reaches levels of flat out refusing to play.

It's even more annoying considering that when they decided to play they immediately score and were more dangerous. Conceding more possession against a much better team is a given but you still need some control of the game and exposing yourself like that to wave after wave is asking for trouble. I compare this match with the one Wolves had vs Man City, Wolves are newly promoted and City are the champions and better than Chelsea. Wolves conceded possession, played defensive (were lucky to have the woodwork saved them too tbh) but they still showed courage and ambition during their counter attacks. Newcastle were a joke yesterday.

There is a middle ground to be found between playing like cowards and trying to exploit your chances when attacking. Benitez was too much of a pussy to try that yesterday.

@duffer: You are spot on
Be fair
Newcastle do not possess the tools to do anything close to what Wolves did against possesion hoggers like Sarri and Pep.
 
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It's frustrating to watch, especially when you're a fan of the opposing team, but I'll never judge a manager of a weaker team for doing it. What matters is having the points at the end of the season.
and goal difference. Newcastle lost by the odd goal. Had they been open they could have been hit for 6 like Huddersfield
 

kouroux

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Newcastle do not possess the tools to do anything close to what Wolves did against possesion hoggers like Sarri and Pep.
Still as lowest as 12percent at home ? fecking pathetic to me, they are pros. Shameful display tbh

and goal difference. Newcastle lost by the odd goal. Had they been open they could have been hit for 6 like Huddersfield
We don't know that for sure do we ? The only thing we know is that they scored with their first shot and their first attack
 
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promisedlanchiao

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Yes read the post you're referring to. Wolves had 30% possession against City yesterday. 11 shots on target against city's 18. If there's a team at present that could steamroll you it's city. Looking at the same stats for the Newcastle Chelsea game you can say at least Wolves gave it a go and came out of it with a point and played a lot more entertaining than Newcastle did.
Sure, city are better than chelsea. The thing is, Wolves are better than newcastle too as they got lucky with mendes.
 

Smores

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I'm sorry but playing like Newcastle did last night was a joke. They went as low as having 12% of the ball and before any you of master tacticians jump at my throat, possession means feck all indeed if you don't get the right result. I agree with all of that but there comes a point where it reaches levels of flat out refusing to play.

It's even more annoying considering that when they decided to play they immediately score and were more dangerous. Conceding more possession against a much better team is a given but you still need some control of the game and exposing yourself like that to wave after wave is asking for trouble. I compare this match with the one Wolves had vs Man City, Wolves are newly promoted and City are the champions and better than Chelsea. Wolves conceded possession, played defensive (were lucky to have the woodwork saved them too tbh) but they still showed courage and ambition during their counter attacks. Newcastle were a joke yesterday.

There is a middle ground to be found between playing like cowards and trying to exploit your chances when attacking. Benitez was too much of a pussy to try that yesterday.

@duffer: You are spot on
Did you actually watch the game because they did try and counter using how far Chelsea pushed up but they were usually poor doing so. For all this talk they had one less shot on target than Chelsea!
 

ypsipeos

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United, Barca, Madrid, Bayern, and Liverpool are historically those clubs. Psg and City have done that in the recent past. Italian clubs get an exception as theyve always been famed for their defensive quality. So for me, I absolutely hate the fact that we are fecking brutal to watch. We had near unlimited funds, we could have built however he wanted. Mourinho went for a defensive side (and has failed at it, given we are awful defensively), instead of looking to be a proactive manager like every big team should be.
I was just a guy with ideas and I loved to teach. I did it (to win and be convincing at it) because I wanted to give ninety minutes of joy to people. And I wanted that joy to come out from winning but from being entertained, from witnessing something special. I did this out of passion, not because I wanted to manage Milan or win the European Cup.”
You forget Arrigo Sacchi's AC Milan. Him and Cruyff formed some ideas that are now typical of the modern attacking football.

About Mourinho, you are right, his football while in United is of a passive style, transforms good athletes to pedestrians.
 

kouroux

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Did you actually watch the game because they did try and counter using how far Chelsea pushed up but they were usually poor doing so. For all this talk they had one less shot on target than Chelsea!
I never talk about things I don't watch.
One less shot on target with those tactics tell me this is a game they could have easily drawn if they showed a tiny bit more cojones. I suppose if it is a matter of POV but I hated the cowardice on display. Chelsea were there for the taking. They gave them way too much respect
 

Irish Jet

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I actually think Benitez was overly negative given how vulnerable Chelsea have looked and it being at home. When they were forced to attack they looked dangerous. Not saying they should have played an attacking style but just taken more initiative than they did.

That said in the long term his tactics have worked wonders. Redknapp and Sounness don’t speak for the Newcastle fans who adore Benitez regardless of what way he’s playing.

This idea that fans prefer to lose 4-3 than get a 0-0 draw is just hilariously false. Watching your side get ripped apart is not fun, contrary to narrative. Ideally you’d do both – Entertain and win – If it’s one or the other you want to win. Every time.
 

Dancfc

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From a Chelsea perspective I wasnt really bothered about style circa 04-17 because for the most part we were amongst the favorites for the major trophies. I mean I wouldn't have accepted Pulis ball but equally I wasn't demanding a Barca style of play either.

Right now however Pep looks like dominating for the foreseeable, so with that in mind I'd rather do the underdog thing while being entertained in the process.
 

bosnian_red

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I was just a guy with ideas and I loved to teach. I did it (to win and be convincing at it) because I wanted to give ninety minutes of joy to people. And I wanted that joy to come out from winning but from being entertained, from witnessing something special. I did this out of passion, not because I wanted to manage Milan or win the European Cup.”
You forget Arrigo Sacchi's AC Milan. Him and Cruyff formed some ideas that are now typical of the modern attacking football.

About Mourinho, you are right, his football while in United is of a passive style, transforms good athletes to pedestrians.
True. Didnt Sacchi tell Milan to hire Sarri before he joined Napoli? Then recently said how they missed out on him and they're paying for it. Theres plenty of examples for it. The truly great managers over the years will be remembered for winning with style, and that is always the goal. It's something that will always hold Mourinho back in these discussions IMO. He has had some great achievements but at the cost of the quality on display, which isnt tolerated at some clubs.
 
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Still as lowest as 12percent at home ? fecking pathetic to me, they are pros. Shameful display tbh
I get where your coming from but I strongly disagree. If it wasnt for that late defensive error. They'd got a point from a game they had no business getting a thing with their current injury list.

We don't know that for sure do we ? ........
Actually we do. Ball hoggers like Sarri and Guardiola teams enjoy it most when you attempt to play. For they quickly steal the ball back from you and ruthlessly exploit the opennings you leave behind as you lose the ball. Im certain if Newcastle had been any riskier they'd have been hammered. Especially since Hazard was in the mood.
 

giorno

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Newcastle tried pressing Chelsea higher a few times in the first half. Every time they did it resulted in a 3 on 4 or 4 on 5 attack for chelsea as they sliced through the press. Of course Newcastle would get scared and remain deeper. Plan was likely to keep it 0-0 till the 75/80 minute and then have a go.

It's not really true that they didn't try. They did in the first half. The main problems were they're shit and Chelsea were good with their pressing and positioning
 

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Football is a winning business...but, I mean, there's obviously going to become a point where the wins become quite hollow if there isn't any entertainment whatsoever in what you're doing. We ultimately watch football because we enjoy it, ergo because we find the stuff that actually happens on a football pitch to be entertaining and aesthetically pleasing. Naturally fans will sacrifice that to a certain extent when it produces results, but there'll often come a point where it becomes quite meaningless if there's no enjoyment to be derived from watching you at all.

Allardyce at Everton last season is probably a good example. Objectively speaking, he did an alright job. He took them over when they were in a risky situation and steered them to a decent upper mid-table finish, ending up only a few points behind a Burnley side that were lauded by many. But...at the same time, his style of football was just fecking boring to watch for Everton fans...and when they were in a position where they weren't winning anything, and where they probably wouldn't have gone down anyway, they were in a reasonable position to ask what exactly the point was if they weren't enjoying it. So there's ideally got to be a balance.
 

Adisa

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A club that grosses €700m a year has no business constantly boring fans regardless of results. Clubs at the lower end of the food chain have a valid excuse.
The thing is that entertaining football gives hope to fans. It creates an expectation that one day, the football will start to match performances. It's neither right or wrong but it's just reality. A positive approach to football gives the manager a bit of cushion when expectations are not met, among fans and with the media. It's why Klopp continued to have both the media and fans on side despite being poor for long periods . Fans have this natural inclination that performances and results will always find equilibrium over the long run and I suspect it is indeed very true.
On the other hand, negative football erodes that cushion and leaves you more exposed. You have no choice but to get results with that approach because if you don't, there is nothing to look forward to.
That phenomenon is even more apparent at a big club like ours with huge resources. If I'm not enjoying your style and I'm not getting the satisfaction of winning anything significant, then why are you here?
For me as a fan, entertainment has even become more fundametal in the last few years. I don't have any expectation of us winning the league, which leaves me with only one thing. I also suspect a number of fans are also in the same situation.
 

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I’d rather watch Swansea in the championship playing good football, than watch Warnock’s Cardiff playing their brand of football in the prem. As a supporter of a small club who are unlikely to win much, who spends money on a season ticket, I’d much rather be entertained playing good football than playing what I find to be dull football, in the (vain imo) hope of finishing a league place or two higher. Having said that, I can understand why Newcastle played like they did.
 

Lawman

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I hate football snobbery but that game yesterday was terrible. Not on Newcastle for me it’s up to Chelsea to break them down and they struggled if it was United we’d have been slaughtered.
 

OverratedOpinion

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As has been touched upon I think it all depends on who you're talking about. Newcastle doing it is absolutely fine due to them having relatively modest resources. For a club the size of United it is a different story for obvious reasons. That said I don't think it is as big an issue as it seems, if Mourinho managed to beat City to the league title playing the current brand of football then the general consensus would revert back to Pep being "naive" and "too much of a purist". The narrative on this is very flexible.
 

adexkola

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I hate football snobbery but that game yesterday was terrible. Not on Newcastle for me it’s up to Chelsea to break them down and they struggled if it was United we’d have been slaughtered.
Eh?

If one team sets up the way Newcastle did then the game is guaranteed to be mediocre at best.
 

ypsipeos

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For me as a fan, entertainment has even become more fundametal in the last few years. I don't have any expectation of us winning the league, which leaves me with only one thing. I also suspect a number of fans are also in the same situation.
Do never become an Arsene(al) fan.
Winning with style is the point. Not just style. Style for the sake of style reminds me the post modern "art for the sake of art" thinking. It 's self exploring masturbation.
 

Adisa

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As has been touched upon I think it all depends on who you're talking about. Newcastle doing it is absolutely fine due to them having relatively modest resources. For a club the size of United it is a different story for obvious reasons. That said I don't think it is as big an issue as it seems, if Mourinho managed to beat City to the league title playing the current brand of football then the general consensus would revert back to Pep being "naive" and "too much of a purist". The narrative on this is very flexible.
That's the thing, crap football is much easier to stomach when you have silverware to show for it. If you don't, you'll get a lot of flack.
Do never become an Arsene(al) fan.
Winning with style is the point. Not just style. Style for the sake of style reminds me the post modern "art for the sake of art" thinking. It 's self exploring masturbation.
I'm not saying attractive football is more important. I'm saying I don't think we can win anything and haven't thought for a while. So, I'd like to enjoy watching my team play, at the least.
 
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OverratedOpinion

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That's the thing, crap football is much easier to stomach when you javh silverware to show for it. If you don't, you'll get a lot of flack.
I think the next question is whether defensive or attacking football are more likely to yield success. Obviously you have to be able to do both when the match calls for it but most teams are more targeted towards one or the other (at least these days).
 

Sky1981

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What do we think of this? Seems to be quite prevalent at the moment with Benitez getting murdered by Redknapp and Souness post game for how he set up. Souness suggests he'd rather play football and lose 0-3 than defend and lose 1-2. Redknapp saying fans need value and entertainment.

For me, as a United fan, we get this alot (sometimes unfairly I might add) with Mourinho. I totally get the point, everyone wants to see nice, attractive football, but essentially I'd go with coaches with the pedigree of Mourinho and Benitez over failures like Redknapp and Souness when it comes to understanding how to set up their teams and other factors behind the scenes which may inhibit them.

It seems now Liverpool and City play easy on the eye football anyone who does things differently is given a hard time and criticised.
Ironically liverpool wont win that much without the dire backpass rule at 1 nil.
 

Sky1981

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You can do whatever the feck you want, but football is entertainment first and for most. When the game js shite to watch thecrowd goes BOOOO, if you win in the end that's fine if you don't there's little else to cheer for.

I think it also depends on expectations. Fans of top clubs expect a certain level of dominance, whereas a Cardiff,Newcastle or Brighton fan is fine with scraping out a resukt with 5% possession and 1 shot in goal.

I think results beat aestethics, but people who pay out of their nose to see their team play are entitled to boo them when they're shite.
Losing 5 0 will get you the boo regardless of how well you play.

Losing 3 - 2 will get you 0 points

Style only matters if you actually got points to go with, it doesnt matter how well you play if you lose the match.