There is no light at the end of the tunnel

Gandalf Greyhame

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There has been a consistency in how the United think-tank has functioned over the last few years since SAF.

The goal is top four and financial stability, and footballing styles don't really matter as long as these goals are met. And it won't matter if they aren't met.

We are willing to spend money but since there is no vision in recruitment at all, there is very little ROI. We keep buying expensive components for a machine without a blueprint for it, hoping the next recruit can put them all together. New managers continue to be bogged down by the errors of the previous one. There is no vision to hiring the managers as well along with the players, so it's a big jumbled mess. This means that even when we stumble across the right manager we won't be giving them the right tools for the job. That even if we get the right parts, we won't be able to assemble them into a functioning machine.

Ole will be sacked if we don't make top six. Even if we do have a turn in form after Pogba and McT are back, he isn't good enough to make top 4 next season with Klopp, Pep, Jose, Rogers and Lampard all being better managers at clubs who have a better vision and recruitment strategy.

There is a consistency to our team as well since SAF retired. Every year, despite spending a lot of money, we're less than the sum of our parts, and every year the parts keep getting worse.

I genuinely feel there is no real light at the end of the tunnel. We're in a Liverpool-esque decline, and it will take us a long time before we identify a Klopp, back his blueprint and give him the tools for he job.
 

MrVolley

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There has been a consistency in how the United think-tank has functioned over the last few years since SAF.

The goal is top four and financial stability, and footballing styles don't really matter as long as these goals are met. And it won't matter if they aren't met.

We are willing to spend money but since there is no vision in recruitment at all, there is very little ROI. We keep buying expensive components for a machine without a blueprint for it, hoping the next recruit can put them all together. New managers continue to be bogged down by the errors of the previous one. There is no vision to hiring the managers as well along with the players, so it's a big jumbled mess. This means that even when we stumble across the right manager we won't be giving them the right tools for the job. That even if we get the right parts, we won't be able to assemble them into a functioning machine.

Ole will be sacked if we don't make top six. Even if we do have a turn in form after Pogba and McT are back, he isn't good enough to make top 4 next season with Klopp, Pep, Jose, Rogers and Lampard all being better managers at clubs who have a better vision and recruitment strategy.

There is a consistency to our team as well since SAF retired. Every year, despite spending a lot of money, we're less than the sum of our parts, and every year the parts keep getting worse.

I genuinely feel there is no real light at the end of the tunnel. We're in a Liverpool-esque decline, and it will take us a long time before we identify a Klopp, back his blueprint and give him the tools for he job.
I agree with everything in this post.

We should at least demand exciting football. That's a minimum. Then let's see if we can move from there

Currently we're a joke and it's not easy to listen to mates giving it back to me
 

Siorac

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Yeah, I'm a little bit apathetic at the moment, precisely for the reasons you mentioned. I still watch every game from start to finish but more out of habit than anything. It's hard to get really excited about it when you feel like nothing is ever going to change.
 

Stookie

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There has been a consistency in how the United think-tank has functioned over the last few years since SAF.

The goal is top four and financial stability, and footballing styles don't really matter as long as these goals are met. And it won't matter if they aren't met.

We are willing to spend money but since there is no vision in recruitment at all, there is very little ROI. We keep buying expensive components for a machine without a blueprint for it, hoping the next recruit can put them all together. New managers continue to be bogged down by the errors of the previous one. There is no vision to hiring the managers as well along with the players, so it's a big jumbled mess. This means that even when we stumble across the right manager we won't be giving them the right tools for the job. That even if we get the right parts, we won't be able to assemble them into a functioning machine.

Ole will be sacked if we don't make top six. Even if we do have a turn in form after Pogba and McT are back, he isn't good enough to make top 4 next season with Klopp, Pep, Jose, Rogers and Lampard all being better managers at clubs who have a better vision and recruitment strategy.

There is a consistency to our team as well since SAF retired. Every year, despite spending a lot of money, we're less than the sum of our parts, and every year the parts keep getting worse.

I genuinely feel there is no real light at the end of the tunnel. We're in a Liverpool-esque decline, and it will take us a long time before we identify a Klopp, back his blueprint and give him the tools for he job.
Well on that note we should just sack it off then.
 

Raw

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As long as we have those clueless feckwits running the club, we're not going anywhere.

Don't think we'll be in a Liverpool-esque decline as I think we'll still win things (and not have a decade where all we'd win is a league cup). We'll just win the occasional shit trophy every 2-3 years due to papering over the cracks by buying expensive players that don't fit into a certain playing style, while City and Liverpool sweep up the league every season. Depressing times.
 

Woodzy

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The have this deluded mentality that everything is going the right way within at the moment. This will continue until results really start to get to them come mid-December and they will sack Ole and start flapping.
 

BlueHaze

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As long as we have those clueless feckwits running the club, we're not going anywhere.
I think looking at the past 6 years this statement has now become a fact. Just think about the fact that we are heading into 2020 in less than a month with Ed Woodward still being the guy overseeing important footballing decisions. Absolute fecking disaster.
 

AFC NimbleThumb

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Yeah, I'm a little bit apathetic at the moment, precisely for the reasons you mentioned. I still watch every game from start to finish but more out of habit than anything. It's hard to get really excited about it when you feel like nothing is ever going to change.
Apathy sums up my feelings towards this team currently also.

I would be raging after throwing away leads against Villa & Sheff. U usually but I’m refusing to get overly emotional about a club that currently isn’t actually trying to win anything, let alone games consistently.
 

Winrar

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Been thinking this ever since LVG left with little success. We are in a vicious cycle.

It looks like the only way out of this mess football-wise is via change of ownership, and sadly Saudis seem like the only immediate answer so far.
 

UpWithRivers

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Its beyond comprehension how poorly we are run and its not exactly rocket science is it. Its so far fetched you can start believing in unknown forces such as witchcraft or that our club has been infiltrated by rouge scousers feeding misinformation and mistrust everywhere they go.
I agree there is no light at the end of the tunnel but at the same time it could get turned around rapidly if only someone would start managing the club properly.
 

Raw

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I think looking at the past 6 years this statement has now become a fact. Just think about the fact that we are heading into 2020 in less than a month with Ed Woodward still being the guy overseeing important footballing decisions. Absolute disaster.
You only have to look at the money spent and how much success it's brought to know what an absolutely shit job Woodward's doing. He's only surviving because he brings in sponsorship deals.

Something like £830m spent in 6.5 seasons and all we have to show for it is an FA Cup, League Cup, Europa League, 2 Community Shields and an average position of 5th. That's not including the ridiculous wages and all the buyouts we're making when sacking managers. It'd be fine if we were building towards something but we haven't, we're still shit to watch and we're still making daft decisions without any planning.

I wish I had as much leeway in my job.
 

Ikon

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It looks like the only way out of this mess football-wise is via change of ownership, and sadly Saudis seem like the only immediate answer so far.
As unpalatable as it might be, I am also thinking that the only way to break this cycle is for the Saudis to buy out the Glazers, and sweep out the current regime, and restructure the whole club with 'best of class' appointments....Very much like City have done...:(
 

Raw

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As unpalatable as it might be, I am also thinking that the only way to break this cycle is for the Saudis to buy out the Glazers, and sweep out the current regime, and restructure the whole club with 'best of class' appointments....Very much like City have done...:(
Pretty much. There isn't anyone else rich enough to not only afford buying the club itself, but also cough up the prices needed to restructure everything within the club and have the patience to see it through. Which is a nasty thought.

It's either that or we continue plummeting in value until the Glazers sell.
 

Bilbo

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We've hired some top managers since Ferguson and backed them in the transfer market. LVG & Mourinho are giants of the managerial world, and Ole was an interim appointment that was given the job off of the back of his early success, something that at the time was met with almost unanimous agreement from the United fans.

I'm playing devils advocate here of course. There have been some mistakes to point to, but its easy to look back in hindsight and criticise. When you look at the most key decisions taken, they are not so bad.
 

0le

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I'm playing devils advocate here of course. There have been some mistakes to point to, but its easy to look back in hindsight and criticise. When you look at the most key decisions taken, they are not so bad.
But there also exist bad decisions which are made far too often. This is the main problem.
 

Sky1981

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There has been a consistency in how the United think-tank has functioned over the last few years since SAF.

The goal is top four and financial stability, and footballing styles don't really matter as long as these goals are met. And it won't matter if they aren't met.

We are willing to spend money but since there is no vision in recruitment at all, there is very little ROI. We keep buying expensive components for a machine without a blueprint for it, hoping the next recruit can put them all together. New managers continue to be bogged down by the errors of the previous one. There is no vision to hiring the managers as well along with the players, so it's a big jumbled mess. This means that even when we stumble across the right manager we won't be giving them the right tools for the job. That even if we get the right parts, we won't be able to assemble them into a functioning machine.

Ole will be sacked if we don't make top six. Even if we do have a turn in form after Pogba and McT are back, he isn't good enough to make top 4 next season with Klopp, Pep, Jose, Rogers and Lampard all being better managers at clubs who have a better vision and recruitment strategy.

There is a consistency to our team as well since SAF retired. Every year, despite spending a lot of money, we're less than the sum of our parts, and every year the parts keep getting worse.

I genuinely feel there is no real light at the end of the tunnel. We're in a Liverpool-esque decline, and it will take us a long time before we identify a Klopp, back his blueprint and give him the tools for he job.
We need to be realistic and stop expecting the next fergie.

It's not enough to win, you need to be loveable, winning in style, bleed youth, united value etc.

As long as we have that expectations we wont get anywhere.
 

DRM

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There has been a consistency in how the United think-tank has functioned over the last few years since SAF.

The goal is top four and financial stability, and footballing styles don't really matter as long as these goals are met. And it won't matter if they aren't met.

We are willing to spend money but since there is no vision in recruitment at all, there is very little ROI. We keep buying expensive components for a machine without a blueprint for it, hoping the next recruit can put them all together. New managers continue to be bogged down by the errors of the previous one. There is no vision to hiring the managers as well along with the players, so it's a big jumbled mess. This means that even when we stumble across the right manager we won't be giving them the right tools for the job. That even if we get the right parts, we won't be able to assemble them into a functioning machine.

Ole will be sacked if we don't make top six. Even if we do have a turn in form after Pogba and McT are back, he isn't good enough to make top 4 next season with Klopp, Pep, Jose, Rogers and Lampard all being better managers at clubs who have a better vision and recruitment strategy.

There is a consistency to our team as well since SAF retired. Every year, despite spending a lot of money, we're less than the sum of our parts, and every year the parts keep getting worse.

I genuinely feel there is no real light at the end of the tunnel. We're in a Liverpool-esque decline, and it will take us a long time before we identify a Klopp, back his blueprint and give him the tools for he job.
Excellent post and sums up my feelings too. I've sort of accepted our fate - we had a wonderful 20 or so years of success under SAF, now its our turn in the pits, its our turn to suffer. Who knows when we will challenge again, I certainly hope its during my lifetime as I really want my kids to see United winning trophies.

The situation right now is really bleak. We go into most games wondering if we stand a chance of winning, that's how bad things are which is utterly disgraceful. A lot of things have been said about Ole so I wont repeat them but for me, one thing has to happen and that is Ed needs to leave. We need to sort out the structure at the top, follow the liverpool and city model. Then get the right manager in. We had the perfect opportunity to do this last season, but once again we made the wrong choice.
 

troylocker

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About time someone started a bash Ole and the club thread. Pffff!
All of this could and should of course be discussed in one of the many other threads about the theme. Feel free to pick among the ten threads on the first page to do your downward meltdown spiral and go into a collective depression.

We're having a subpar start to the season on many levels, but we'll probably end up between 4th and 8th depending how much quality we get in, in a very important January window. There is really no reason to proclaim the end of the world. Bad results against mid- and low-table teams one third through the season, when we have experienced an injurycrisis and are doing a rebuild of the squad, is below what we expected, but it is hardly a crisis.

The positives:
- A lot of youngsters are getting minutes.
- We have showed up for every big game
- We are still in all competitions
- I at least have seen improvement in a lot of the players (not all though)
- Ole still seems to have the wardrobe.
- Young team with a lot of potential.

The negatives:
- Bad results results against mid- and low-table team in the PL
- Lack of consistency in our performances.
- Have not strenghtened our midfield and attack after letting several players go in the summer.

Factors that have played in on the negatives:
Injuries and the fact that we haven't been able to muster our best 11 more than a couple of times at the start of the season. Playing our 3rd, 4th, 5th and 6th choice in the midfield and 2nd, 3rd choice on the LB will not give us the results we want. Injuries has also not allowed us having any continuity in a quality starting 11. I am confident that the results would have been a lot better without injuries to key players and continuity in a best first eleven. I am also confident that the results will get better when we are playing a midfield not looking like Pereira/Fred/Mata or Pereira/Fred/Lindgard. The last couple of weeks that's been our options unfortunately. After the City-game we will probably find another string of decent results to secure that the gap to Europe is closable when the January window comes.

What is needed:
Let's start with two GOOD signings in January. We need to aim high and spend big. That could still save the season and show ambition. If Ole is not backed with at least one top signing in January, I'm afraid some of the gloom is justified, but let's give them the chance to do that before folding this project.
 

FujiVice

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We could be in the relegation zone over Christmas. There is no tunnel, let alone light. This is a disgrace, really.
 

MrBest

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Ole is even worse than Moyes. He has no clue what he is doing, the football is bad and there is no plan. Even during the first 15 games, we were winning but we were not playing that well. Against spurs we were dominated and at leaat half of them games we rode our luck which paid off. Since Ole has been in charge on a perm basis he has less than 30% win percentage. Even when we have won, we have played misserable football, outdated counter attack. We cannot control games, no vision, he gave mata 150k a week and did not replace Ander, couldn't replace Lukaku, promised the youngsters that they were ready and then blow his own trumpet. It has been embarrassing as there is no direction. Believe me if we had the same results but there was a clear strategy the way we play, i wouldn't mind so much but there is nothing. I don't like Woodward or the board but I am tired of people blaming them. Our manager cannot even beat villa at home and we got outplayed. The board have spent in the laat 6 years, yes we need a strategy but the manager puts the team out and sets the tactics. If Ole cannot get the basics right of how to play football, he has no chance. I have virtually given up watching games these days. I used to shuffle my days around to make sure i somehow watch. I bought a shirt every year. Both are not happening anymore, it is literally the same shtt different day.
 

Offside

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Yep could be 20 years before we win the league again. Longer maybe.
 

Alabaster Codify7

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I agree, we are in a Liverpool-esque wilderness for the foreseeable future.

The board only want the season tickets to be renewed so as long as the fans continue swallowing the bullshit they feed us every year, they're going nowhere.

Our mission statement is making 3 x signings each summer (one big money, one mid-level money, one gamble/cheap prospect). With a manager who will tolerate under-investment and mediocre results, preferably. If the manager won't tolerate that, fire him and find someone who will....for a while at least, then repeat the cycle.
 

Bilbo

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The board only want the season tickets to be renewed so as long as the fans continue swallowing the bullshit they feed us every year, they're going nowhere.

Our mission statement is making 3 x signings each summer (one big money, one mid-level money, one gamble/cheap prospect). With a manager who will tolerate under-investment and mediocre results, preferably. If the manager won't tolerate that, fire him and find someone who will....for a while at least, then repeat the cycle.
I think its highly likely that none of the above is true. Bad investments on players over the last few years is by far the biggest reason why we are in the mess that we are in now.
 

GenZRed

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Until we get a Director of Football nothing will change.

I thin ka lot of younger fans, such as myself, didn't know how good we had it under Sir Alex Ferguson and did not appreciate just how big of a role he played at the football club. He had a direction and a vision and a good football brain. Ed Woodward clearly doesnt have the final of those three and with him in that role, as opposed to a Director of Football we are going nowhere. Or going backwards.
 

GenZRed

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Ole is even worse than Moyes. He has no clue what he is doing, the football is bad and there is no plan. Even during the first 15 games, we were winning but we were not playing that well. Against spurs we were dominated and at leaat half of them games we rode our luck which paid off. Since Ole has been in charge on a perm basis he has less than 30% win percentage. Even when we have won, we have played misserable football, outdated counter attack. We cannot control games, no vision, he gave mata 150k a week and did not replace Ander, couldn't replace Lukaku, promised the youngsters that they were ready and then blow his own trumpet. It has been embarrassing as there is no direction. Believe me if we had the same results but there was a clear strategy the way we play, i wouldn't mind so much but there is nothing. I don't like Woodward or the board but I am tired of people blaming them. Our manager cannot even beat villa at home and we got outplayed. The board have spent in the laat 6 years, yes we need a strategy but the manager puts the team out and sets the tactics. If Ole cannot get the basics right of how to play football, he has no chance. I have virtually given up watching games these days. I used to shuffle my days around to make sure i somehow watch. I bought a shirt every year. Both are not happening anymore, it is literally the same shtt different day.
Now now, Ole didn't lose 0-3 at home against Liverpool. ;)
 

Buster15

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There has been a consistency in how the United think-tank has functioned over the last few years since SAF.

The goal is top four and financial stability, and footballing styles don't really matter as long as these goals are met. And it won't matter if they aren't met.

We are willing to spend money but since there is no vision in recruitment at all, there is very little ROI. We keep buying expensive components for a machine without a blueprint for it, hoping the next recruit can put them all together. New managers continue to be bogged down by the errors of the previous one. There is no vision to hiring the managers as well along with the players, so it's a big jumbled mess. This means that even when we stumble across the right manager we won't be giving them the right tools for the job. That even if we get the right parts, we won't be able to assemble them into a functioning machine.

Ole will be sacked if we don't make top six. Even if we do have a turn in form after Pogba and McT are back, he isn't good enough to make top 4 next season with Klopp, Pep, Jose, Rogers and Lampard all being better managers at clubs who have a better vision and recruitment strategy.

There is a consistency to our team as well since SAF retired. Every year, despite spending a lot of money, we're less than the sum of our parts, and every year the parts keep getting worse.

I genuinely feel there is no real light at the end of the tunnel. We're in a Liverpool-esque decline, and it will take us a long time before we identify a Klopp, back his blueprint and give him the tools for he job.
Good analysis which I agree with.
The primary objective of any football supporter is hope.
Hope that the next season will be at least as good as or better than the last season.
Hope that their team will be successful. That could be promotion, avoiding relegation or winning trophies.
But there has to be hope because that sustains their love of their team.
At the moment the only realistic hope for all the suffering United supporters is somehow for this nightmare to end.
 

Bilbo

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Until we get a Director of Football nothing will change.

I thin ka lot of younger fans, such as myself, didn't know how good we had it under Sir Alex Ferguson and did not appreciate just how big of a role he played at the football club. He had a direction and a vision and a good football brain. Ed Woodward clearly doesnt have the final of those three and with him in that role, as opposed to a Director of Football we are going nowhere. Or going backwards.
Lot of talk about a DoF coming in, but nobody ever questions the possibility that this won't be a success. Its always a guaranteed no-brainer win.

I think there is an easy argument in favour of a DoF, because we are suffering from having managers with different ideas on how they want to play and we've ended up with a squad with no balance. In reality though neither one of LVG or Mourinho would have stood for a situation where they being handed players. Mourinho fell out very publicly with Chelsea and United and lost both positions because of it. Pochettino clearly had a big problem at Spurs not being in control of this.

I've never had a problem with our manager having as much power as they do, but then the board need to be consistent with the type of managers they appoint. You can't go from a Wenger to an Allardyce, or in our case an LVG to a Jose to an Ole. Its a car crash. The issue people have is with Woodward having no football background - which makes me wonder whether the likes of Ferguson and Charlton are being consulted. I see Fergusons fingerprints all over our current strategy, and for me its absolutely the right way forward for this club.

Even if we fired Ole tomorrow the new manager will come in to a much cleaner situation that any of the others. This squad feels a lot more like something that can be built upon rather than something that needs to be torn down. This is where a lot of my support and patience for Ole has come from. Its not because I think he is a tactical visionary (though he is far from as bad as is made out) but more because the club have made strides to flush away the mistakes and now just need to the time to bring in better players where we need them. That's not going to change whether we fire the manager or bring in a DoF.
 

lsd

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You can only see the light when you near the end of the tunnel
 

KekiZeki

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Just spending the money was never the answer. The club has forgoten it for a while, but we seem to have come to our senses. Ole will do the work in offloading dead wood, that much he has shown us so far, then we will have a skeleton of a team to add structure to, a healthier structure. That's a positive news, the only one for now, but it is how it is. It's not going to be quick or easy, but "no light at the end of the tunnel" is a very shortsighted way of looking at things. This Club has been through a lot worse and it bounced back, losing all your team in Munchen disaster and rebuilding has happened in our past, these 5 bad seasons is nothing in comparison! No team can stay on top forever, but we did it longer than the most have and we'll come back to do it again.
 

Alabaster Codify7

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I think its highly likely that none of the above is true. Bad investments on players over the last few years is by far the biggest reason why we are in the mess that we are in now.

You can think whatever you like, my lad.
 

Bilbo

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Just spending the money was never the answer. The club has forgoten it for a while, but we seem to have come to our senses. Ole will do the work in offloading dead wood, that much he has shown us so far, then we will have a skeleton of a team to add structure to, a healthier structure. That's a positive news, the only one for now, but it is how it is. It's not going to be quick or easy, but "no light at the end of the tunnel" is a very shortsighted way of looking at things. This Club has been through a lot worse and it bounced back, losing all your team in Munchen disaster and rebuilding has happened in our past, these 5 bad seasons is nothing in comparison! No team can stay on top forever, but we did it longer than the most have and we'll come back to do it again.
Agreed - We are coming off of the back of a generation of supporters that only know success. Its not meant as an insult. Its just the way it is. We shouldn't expect success to be a given, especially given that we are now in the era of incredibly wealthy groups investing heavily in clubs while we enjoyed none of those advantages. We are not immune to mistakes being made and, when buying a single player can cost 10% of our annual revenue, we cannot simply buy our way of those mistakes any more.
 

Bilbo

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You can think whatever you like, my lad.
Club that are settling for mediocrity, or attempting to fool their supporters, don't break the world record on a centre back. You are letting your negativity cloud your judgement.
 

El Zoido

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I agree with everything in this post.

We should at least demand exciting football. That's a minimum. Then let's see if we can move from there

Currently we're a joke and it's not easy to listen to mates giving it back to me
We’re so pathetic even my rival-supporting mates can’t be arsed giving me shit about it. It’s more fun when you bottle a league title by slipping over, us being boring and shit is barely worth ribbing us over. Like, who cares. I know football fans that loathed us when we were successful, now becoming slightly sympathetic towards us. I live in the midlands and know a lot of Villa fans, they hate City, Liverpool, and Leicester a lot more now. This was never the case years ago.
 

VeevaVee

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I don't think there's no light. It could all turn around very quickly if we can find a manager that can get a tune out of the players for a sustained amount of time. It'd take a while to sort the mess behind the scenes but it would look a lot brighter. We desperately need to get next summer right, whoever is in charge.
 

Shark

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Ireland
We've hired some top managers since Ferguson and backed them in the transfer market. LVG & Mourinho are giants of the managerial world, and Ole was an interim appointment that was given the job off of the back of his early success, something that at the time was met with almost unanimous agreement from the United fans.

I'm playing devils advocate here of course. There have been some mistakes to point to, but its easy to look back in hindsight and criticise. When you look at the most key decisions taken, they are not so bad.
Almost. If I remember correctly, there were many fans already deeming it a decision that will shoot us in the foot. The league run we went on after PSG was nothing short of diabolical.

In response to the OP, I agree with a lot of what’s been said, but I don’t agree that we’ve tried everything yet. You look at Poch and see a manager like nobody we’ve had since Ferguson stepped down. Moyes was never good enough, even for Everton by the time he left. LVG was semi retired by the time we hired him and was lagging behind in the modern game. Mourinho on the other hand should have come after SAF’s retirement and maybe, just maybe we’d have maintained our standards, instead of being a victim to Moyes lowering of them and us never recovering. He was never going to work for us long term though, we got what was on the tin. Poch is a manager that has neither the ego of LVG and Jose, but unlike Moyes and Ole he’s actually built a team that’s challenged at the very top level. As much as I detest Woodward, he’s here to stay and Poch is the first manager I think he can actually form a positive relationship with.