It's tempting to do that, but habit keeps me watching.
There is no light at the end of the tunnel
- Thread starter Gandalf Greyhame
- Start date
Good post, hard to swallow yet so bang on true! We're in shit street no doubt. So many examples of top class players being brought in, they make an impact in the beginning and then drop off and become "deadwood". Now it's more clear than ever the owners and Woodward are to blame for the terrible state of our club. It's not only the players that turn into crap, managers do as well. Mourinho will now prove this when he brings success to Spurs. I'm sure of that!
I agree that some decisions seemed correct at the time, but you need to make a series of good decisions in a row.
Getting Jose and backing him to get Pogba and Zlatan was one of the best series of decisions we made. A rare instance of finding the right man and giving him the right tools. But we reverted back to type by handing him a mega contract and then not getting him Maguire and Perisic. Of course, Jose was preceded by bad decisions, too. Jose should have inherited ADM, Nani, Memphis and Chicharito. We don't make a sequence of good or even consistent decisions because there is no vision. It's a greedy algorithm choosing the easiest visible path to possible success.
Now they're trying to correct their past mistakes by gambling everything on the wrong horse. If they are willing to do this for the next manager, too, I actually wouldn't complain, but then again I doubt the board's ability to identify a manager who shares Ole's vision (young squad with academy prospects, fast counter attacking football, faith in players like Rashford/Martial) and improves upon Ole's shortcomings (set pieces, attacking patterns, substitutions, mentality, increased standards with consequences for failing them, etc). Chances are, we'll end up with another mismatch who'll have to start from scratch and won't be backed with the players he wants.
Hire a competent DOF, hire a competent top manager in squad building and proper coaching, start a proper rebuilding job and we'll be back shortly.
Otherwise yes we're in for 10-15 years more of this crap.
Otherwise yes we're in for 10-15 years more of this crap.
Agreed. Whilst Woodward & Glazers are at the helm, we are not going anywhere but sideways or downwards.. Bring in any manager you want, its just gonna end up the same result again.
Remember, to the Glazers, we're 'Manchester United Ltd' .. Not 'Manchester United Football Club'
As long as they are seeing £££ that they can take on the bottom line, they couldn't care less
Remember, to the Glazers, we're 'Manchester United Ltd' .. Not 'Manchester United Football Club'
As long as they are seeing £££ that they can take on the bottom line, they couldn't care less
Yeah, I get frustrated with it at times, but I guess people are not to blame to be younger and not seen the difficult times. Things are not as bleak as people make it out to be, even if it's a revamp of the whole squad. Klopp has like 2 first team players in his team who were there when he arrived, it's possible to rebuild quite quickly and holding on to useless players who are past it is just prolonging the process. It may sound cruel but the cull is needed, Ole has moved in that direction somewhat, like him or not you got a give him credit for that, chopping Sanchez and Lukaku of the club's books took some balls.
Based on the decisions we've seen far, what are the chances of all three happening together at the same time under Woodward?
It's not even hindsight but most of the key decisions made have been a disaster. Moyes was never going to succeed after SAF especially with the rebuilding job he would of had to do. He was only brought in because he was British with the club trying to stick to "traditional values."
LVG passed his sell by date long before he became our manager and was never the right fit for our club. I watched him have his breakdown in his second stint with Barca and just knew it wouldn't work.
With Mou what can we say? Maybe, just maybe if he had of taken over after SAF things might have been different. He was never a long term option and it was no surprise to anyone when he imploded.
Ole was given the job on the back of a good run. We then had a couple of defeats and instead of waiting until the end of the season Ed panicked and gave him the job.
Some say that 4 managers can't be wrong. I disagree. Moyes, LVG and Mou (with respect for the last 2 for past achievements) are dinosaurs in the footballing world. Football has changed so much in the last 10 years but they haven't moved with the times and if the club had of waited they would of seen Ole is way out of his depth.
The club have tried different types of managers without success. What we haven't tried is hiring a young progressive manager who understands the modern game. Couple that with getting rid of Ed, bringing in a DOF and although there's never any guarantees I'm positive all the chips will start to fall in the right places.
On the other hand. If Ed stays in his job and we bring in Wenger then we'll just be banging our heads against a brick wall for another few years.
Less than 0% unfortunately.
Disagree. There is light at the end of the tunnel. It'll just take some time and a few more mistakes to get there.
Thank You for highlighting everything that's on my mind. I absolutely agree and I also think we need a new style and a confident manager who thinks "at least in his mind" that he's the best in the business.
I know you aren't in favour of keeping Ole. Would you trust Ed to make the correct managerial appointment to succeed him and then consistently back him in the market with good players?
A tunnel implies a journey with a beginning and an end. At the moment United are standing in the dark, without a torch & no idea which where the tunnel is.
It's all fine margins. Two stupidly thrown away leads in a week. If we hadn't we'd be 5th, 4 of top 4 and closing in on it with a great run of form.
Its just beyond frustrating at this stage. The villa draw was the last 5 years in a nutshell
Its just beyond frustrating at this stage. The villa draw was the last 5 years in a nutshell
The truth is “exciting football” is winning football, I can’t think of any teams outside the current top 6 who you could class as exciting, same goes for leagues around the world. Everyone called Chelsea under Mourinho’s first spell boring but Chelsea fans sure weren’t complaining because they saw their team win most games. Our football has not been winning or exciting, focus on getting results first and the excitement will return with a winning team.
That's the danger of looking at specifics. Even if we won yesterday it wouldn't for me change the fundamental problem with our lack of proper football. Personally I focus on performances more than results and I don't see much in them to suggest any sort of future for Ole. And that's why we keep having these sort of results.
It's the same in all sports. Bad teams find a way to lose games/drop points.
Fine margins, could have been 0 points and 4 points off relegation. We deserve to be where we are and we won’t trouble that top 4.
It’s the same idiots who’ve presided over failure still running the show, still making bad decisions and lacking ambition. They also now have their worst manager who is completely out of his depth.
Probably trying to work out whether they stick or twist but they will balls it up either way. This club will never compete at the top until there is fundamental change, there’s no sign of that so it’s years and years more of the same old shit. They think they have a plan but they don’t and are just making it worse by pretending they do and that it will all work out.
Dunno but think fan base in general is focusing on wrong things, might be wrong but thats just me.
Whilst I agree with parts of your post, I feel it does need a positive retort since a lot of the posters so far have quite frankly made me cringe, a lot.
You say our goal is top 4 and financial stability in a negative sense, but is that really a bad goal given the competitiveness of our league, and how important it is to have a financially successful club? With the money that has been pumped into the PL this century, it was only a matter of time before teams started flexing some financial muscle and making the league more interesting. Also, I don’t think we have ever had our start of season objectives officially announced, but I’d wager that the long term goals do involves trophies.
You say there is no vision to our recruitment, yet this past summer is the most clear it’s ever been. Young, British players that have massive potential, and one of them currently being tried out as our captain.
You say that when we “stumble across the right manager we won’t be giving them the right tools for the job” which is completely ignorant of one of the purposes of a manager, which is to get the most out of the squad he inherits, and improve them. I have no hesitation that there are several managers out there who would get more out of our current squad.
You say that Leicester and Chelsea have better recruitment visions than us which is plain false. Go and have a look at Chelsea signings over the last few seasons, they’ve had their fair share of flops and I don’t think Leicester have done anything that makes them any sort of strategic planning masterminds, rather they are benefitting from having a coach who knows how to get the best of the players at his disposal. That being said, their signing of Tielemans was one of the best pieces of business of any team in the league.
And this is a hard one to swallow, but you compare our decline to Liverpool and say there’s no light at the end of the tunnel, in the same sentence. The same Liverpool team who hold the champions league, are running away with the premier league, playing some of the best football in Europe and with no immediate sense that they are going to let up.
So my question to you is, how long is your tunnel? Because it’s pretty reasonable to expect us to get it right again one day, and to be honest there’s a part of me that thinks if we do take longer than expected to get back to the top, then at least we’ll be able to get rid of some overly negative fans for a while
It's not fine margins when this keeps happening for 3 months, 14 games in the league.
Agree with lots of both of you. I'm a big ole defender but the villa game really did dishearten me. Some people don't get it at all and they may be right but I don't believe any manager we get will give us success in the next 2 years. Purely as we've tried three times already I'm sti tempted by giving a manager some more time to implement his own team and change the mindset from player power.
Its very tempting to go for pochettino now, but his 2019 has been really poor CL aside. What if he came and did same. Its square one again.
Barring a total implosion of course, I'd be still, just, tempted to give ole his three years. We don't know who will be available then football is ever changing. Could be that nagelsmann, Rodgers, feck even guardiola or some newly emerged fergie will be looking for a job then,should it not happen for solskjaer.
This is all very best case scenario of course but I really can't stomach another manager coming in and going through the same cycle all over again from scratch
Well considering the last manager - who was doing a terrible job, all things considered - was doing better at this point last season, I'm fairly confident that an actual 'modern progressive manager' would be doing better, yes.
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I agree there’s no success happening here for years
With Ole though your not even starting from square one, he’s fallen back from that. He has same problems any manger will have with the board and recruitment, additionally he has his lack of ability, the failure of this season hanging over him and literally nothing to build on.
The outlook is bleak and it’s even bleaker with Ole, if he makes it through the season he’s a dead man walking going into next season.
There is no light because change isn't happening quick enough and there is far more wrong at the club than solely the manager. I think we need at least the following to happen before any significant changes:
An experienced Director of Football - we need long term planning with the squad. Not a former player 'that knows the club' but someone 'that knows how to do the job'. Van Der Sar is the obvious choice as he ticks both boxes anyway.
New strength and conditioning coach and medical staff - players clearly aren't fit and we have far too many injuries. Considering the style Liverpool implement its incredible how few injuries their squad gets.
New scouts - because they haven't identified decent talent for years. £20m for Dalot? I mean really? Someone thought after 7 top flight games a 20 year old RB was worth a £20m punt. The rest of our targets were well known players which we pay 25%+ above the market rate for.
New manager - who has a world class pedigree and an attacking style - unbelievably we still haven't appointed a manager who wants to attack.
5 new players - LB, DM, CM, RW, ST - they all don't need to be world class and cost £75m+. The club needs to learn to spend money wisely and given our circumstance the best talent may not want to come to us. The likes of Sancho would be fantastic but at £100m+ he will take a big chunk of our budget. He is also 19 years old. We have three very young forwards already in the team. Maybe we need to consider using £100m to bridge more than one gap in the squad. This is the type of thinking the club just isn't doing.
An experienced Director of Football - we need long term planning with the squad. Not a former player 'that knows the club' but someone 'that knows how to do the job'. Van Der Sar is the obvious choice as he ticks both boxes anyway.
New strength and conditioning coach and medical staff - players clearly aren't fit and we have far too many injuries. Considering the style Liverpool implement its incredible how few injuries their squad gets.
New scouts - because they haven't identified decent talent for years. £20m for Dalot? I mean really? Someone thought after 7 top flight games a 20 year old RB was worth a £20m punt. The rest of our targets were well known players which we pay 25%+ above the market rate for.
New manager - who has a world class pedigree and an attacking style - unbelievably we still haven't appointed a manager who wants to attack.
5 new players - LB, DM, CM, RW, ST - they all don't need to be world class and cost £75m+. The club needs to learn to spend money wisely and given our circumstance the best talent may not want to come to us. The likes of Sancho would be fantastic but at £100m+ he will take a big chunk of our budget. He is also 19 years old. We have three very young forwards already in the team. Maybe we need to consider using £100m to bridge more than one gap in the squad. This is the type of thinking the club just isn't doing.
Good post with a strong finish. This forum of late has been as bad if not worse than anything I've seen on RAWK in the past, and how we used to laugh at those guys
No, but eventually we will get it right. It's taken longer than people expected (this'll be the 7th season). Maybe it'll eventually take 12 years, maybe 15. But I believe it'll come together. You do realise Liverpool when they were on 20 plus years at one point with little hope in sight?
Would signing let's say haland and sancho between January and June make you more optimistic?
I really do think any manager would suffer with the players we have at the moment, given the injuries we've had. Yes we should have a better squad but that can't all be on ole
A new manager, approximately £400 million investment into the first team, about nine squad members released, a director of football, no further involvement in transfers by Woodward, sizeable investment into the stadium and training complex, a cohesive playing style that translates from the youth teams all the way up, a revamp of our transfer strategy that has wasted almost a billion pounds in six years and immediate ceasing of handing lucrative new contracts to players who have continually failed to show any quality.
That’s all we need and we’re sorted, I’m not sure what you’re worried about?
That’s all we need and we’re sorted, I’m not sure what you’re worried about?
And what if Poch came in and won us the league within 18 months? Will it happen? Probably not but with Ole in charge the answer would be definitely not.
If we were on the same points as we are now but playing with a distinctive attacking style I'd be willing to give Ole a lot more leeway. Let's not forget Ole has been in management for over a decade so he's not one of those up and coming managers we all talk about which could maybe be afforded a little more time. After a year with us he's showing little or no understanding in something which is basic for any manager. Tactics/coaching. It's not something he's magically going to learn in the next few years so even though we know he has a hard job rebuilding we also know he's no where good enough to be the one to take us back to the top.
I don't get the logic that just because Ole isn't good enough to get the best out of this squad no one else can, no matter what else is happening behind the scenes.
Also I keep hearing about the Glazers being happy not spending money and Ole being the perfect manager for that. If that was the case we wouldn't have spent the enormous amount we have over the past 7 years.
The ambition is there. We need the competence to match
The ambition is there. We need the competence to match
Of course but we’re not getting either of those players, another downside to persisting with Ole is there is now doubt over his position. That means second thoughts about whether or not to back him. Woodward has already said how tough it was to do three deals in one summer, imagine what it will be like if their not fully motivated.
Could other managers do better, absolutely, just as some would do worse. No one thinks it’s all on Ole but we can’t ignore the fact he isn’t very good and that he is almost certainly out of his depth.
I still think there's some light. The difference right now is that it's individual errors costing us points. Yes, Ole is making some mistakes as well. But we also have the youngest average age for a first 11 in the entire Premier League. Young players are going to make mistakes. They need time to improve. Ole will need time to improve as well. If he's given money in January to bring in a central midfielder and a striker, I still believe we can get top 4 this season.
At the start of the season in August, on the Caf, I said we'd be about 9th before January. That was because Woodward left Ole out to dry, as he did to Mourinho. If we can back Ole in January, and bring in the right players, I'm confident Ole will do the rest. Look, it's going to be a rough road. We might lose against Spurs and City. We might be 13th or so in January. But this league is tight and if we back our young players now we could be set for a great season next year.
At the start of the season in August, on the Caf, I said we'd be about 9th before January. That was because Woodward left Ole out to dry, as he did to Mourinho. If we can back Ole in January, and bring in the right players, I'm confident Ole will do the rest. Look, it's going to be a rough road. We might lose against Spurs and City. We might be 13th or so in January. But this league is tight and if we back our young players now we could be set for a great season next year.
We shall see. What I will say if we're going down the regular sacking route is that I'll be showing no patience, I'm expecting results straight away or get the next guy in. This is what people seem to want.
I've come to a point where defeats don't dissapoint and the wins don't excite me as much as they once did. This is the first season in over 30 years I caught myself not celebrating a goal we've scored, No I don't want us to lose for some stupid reason like getting the manager sacked, or even worse, winning an argument online. The only thing that puts a smile on my face recently is watching our young academy player have a go at it, win or lose I enjoy watching them give it their all. I've become so disconnected from our first team and honestly couldn't care less if they stay or go. They have stopped caring and so have I... I guess.
I think this comes down to a lot of what you have written. Lack of ambition, no clear plan and the constant excuses and press-releases that think us fans are dumb has put a sour taste in my mouth and it will take more than a smiling club legend to take it away.
I think this comes down to a lot of what you have written. Lack of ambition, no clear plan and the constant excuses and press-releases that think us fans are dumb has put a sour taste in my mouth and it will take more than a smiling club legend to take it away.
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I think most would be happy if we looked like we were actively evolving our tactics with modern times and showing some form of improvements. The fact that we have actively regressed since the last manager results wise and have shown zero cohesion in terms of our tactics / style of play, is totally unforgivable for most fans.
Get ready to throw your toys out of the pram because he will be sacked. He has nothing positive to point to, no improvement and just to rub it in even his old team have got better and gone and won the league without him.
Woodward and co won’t take their share of the blame, they won’t change anything but they will sack Ole and move on.
We need a DOF. If that doesn't happen then I agree.
I still doubt he will be sacked. If he is then I won't be throwing any toys out of the pram, I'll just accept that's the way we're working and adjust my expectations of the new man accordingly. No semblance of any long term plan, just instant results or face the sack.
Me too. Absolutely the same.
I appear to have lost all 100%, every last single bit of enthusiasm for watching us these days.
There was a time when I'd do the round trip in a day to watch a big match - now I even have to think twice whether to turn the TV on because I know at the end of the match, I'll be frustrated and angry.
And, in fact, I've already arranged to go out with friends instead of watching the Citeh match next week - that's how much I care for the club at the moment.
Four EPL wins since August isn't just bad, it's a disgrace on everyone associated with and employed by the club.
I agree with alot of what you all are saying
there are teams on half of our budget playing more exciting stuff. woodward Might be the one that buys and sells pieces. But the manager is the one that pushes for a play style. Hopefully we see some exciting stuff soon. There are glimpses of it with ole. But we need to see more for sure
there are teams on half of our budget playing more exciting stuff. woodward Might be the one that buys and sells pieces. But the manager is the one that pushes for a play style. Hopefully we see some exciting stuff soon. There are glimpses of it with ole. But we need to see more for sure