Thiago Alcantara | Pool bound
- Thread starter Sean_RedDevil
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Can’t compare stuff like that. Is it possible it happens again? Yes.
Is it that likely that you can say it’s impossible he’ll finish his current contract until 2024? No, definitely not. And that was your initial daft comment.
I can compare when the person I quoted literally said he doesn't walk away from contracts when he did exactly that.
So what do you call resigning from Maniz 05 after he got them relegated and couldnt get them back up so,he also signed a new contract with BD in July 13 till 2018 and left 2 yrs later , so if thats not walking away, what is ?
Have you watched him play much? Serious question. This is the guy for whom Pep famously said, “I want him or nobody”. He’s absolutely brilliant and it was only the injuries that stalled him at Bayern. If Barca hadn’t had Xavi ahead of him, he’d have been impossible for Bayern to get by the bye, as they’d not have failed to meet the clauses that allowed the buyout to drop. There is literally no midfield in the world he’d not improve. None. At all. Nada. Irrespective of “system”. Your comment reveals you have a lot to study about him.
I am shocked that we are not in on him. I would drive up the fee for Liverpool, can't just let Liverpool have him without driving up the price. Such a pity, he is an upgrade to our bench and probably have a lot of opportunities to play via rotation or injury.
I'm a huge fan of Thiago but I'd be fine if we got VDB instead. VDB would atleast give us 35+ games per season for the next 10 years. He could fill in for Pogba as well as Bruno.
I hope we don't go for him.
I don't really see the fuss with him. Doesn't get many goals or assists. Fast approaching 30 and would cost around £35-40m.
Seems like a stopgap signing for Liverpool. If its true that they won't go heavy in the transfer market this summer, then he's a semi-cheap option. Not the quality signing we need at United to make the push for the Prem.
I don't really see the fuss with him. Doesn't get many goals or assists. Fast approaching 30 and would cost around £35-40m.
Seems like a stopgap signing for Liverpool. If its true that they won't go heavy in the transfer market this summer, then he's a semi-cheap option. Not the quality signing we need at United to make the push for the Prem.
The realistic scenario would have to be United matching the offer and seriously trying to convince him. Now he will have 2 options to choose, not necessarily driving the fee up.
I don't think we have the space for him to be honest. High wages, starting place, at the wrong side of 20s.
Exactly bring in 23 year old Van De Beek and pay him around 130k/ week and probably get the same output for the next decade
No thank you. Wrong age, wrong fitness type. Van de Beek would be a much better option.
Except the midfield where he currently isn't getting any starts for? Bayern have been really good since the restart without him, Goretzka is taking his spot and he has been involved offensively much more than Thiago usually is. I also don't think Thiago would start in Uniteds midfield right now ahead of Pogba.
I like Thiago and think he will start for Liverpool because even when it comes to a heavy pressing system Klopp imploys, he can fit in there because he played in a similar system under Pep. Klopp would either be a moron or Liverpool would be absolutely scint if they don't sign him, he would improve their midfield a lot.
I'd hate to see Thiago go to Liverpool, and after watching our last two games you can see that we need someone that can control our play from a deeper position. Someone whom is comfortable on the ball and that can withstand the high pressing with movement, passing and vision. If we have the possibility to sign Thiago - just go for it. Think about the possibility to form a midfield trio of him, Pogba and Fernandes. We'd have a maestro directing our game plan from the deep and a maestro directing our attack. Then a strong midfielder that can break through the center and be second fiddle to both of the playmakers, as he should be.
I think it comes down to the age and the transfer value coupled with his injury prone career at Bayern is what makes him a risk for quite a few teams in the PL as he would command high wages. City could afford to do so because he would essentially be a bench player for them. The likes of Pool are looking to conserve their resources due to the pandemic situation and won't be drawn into frivolous spending.
This guy is probably one of if not the most underrated player in the world since he doesn't gather a lot of scorers. But he has so many subtle plays that create space and initiate attacks it's unreal. Yes, Bayern did great without him regardless but many of their fans still think he's their best midfielder and before Lewandowski started his incredible run of form he was also quite broadly considered their best player.
He'd be frighteningly good for Liverpool. In his best Dortmund years, Klopp had a similar midfielder in person of Gündogan in his team and he looked like a world beater. He'll absolutely dominate games for them.
He'd be frighteningly good for Liverpool. In his best Dortmund years, Klopp had a similar midfielder in person of Gündogan in his team and he looked like a world beater. He'll absolutely dominate games for them.
Post-restart when he'd told the club he'd not be renewing? A club not starting a player who's said he wants out is hardly a sign that the player isn't good enough! And saying Thiago would not start ahead of Pogba is a lot like saying Pogba would not start ahead of Bruno. Different roles, different players. Would you also say that against Southampton having a press-resistant metronome like him would not have helped? Adding Thiago instantly strengthens our team - and adds options. He doesn't have to be better at everything than any single midfielder. It's about the overall package.
His age and potential concerns about his long-term fitness (injuries?) may be cited as reasons to be wary, but provided he stays fit, he'd be an exceptional signing for whichever club gets him.
Haha you are overrating Thiago so much. He is a good player, with moments of magic, but he has never imposed himself as one of the best midfielders in the world. To say that he would improve any midfield in the world is deluded mate.
No no no no no. This is exactly the type of signing we are moving away from. I don't care how good he was. He is past his prime and he's injury prone. We don't want other teams scraps. He had his chance to come here. He chose Bayern. We move on...
Get the feeling he'll end up at Liverpool and I think it'll be that perfect touch-up they need to go on and win it relatively comfortably again.
If Moyes signed KRoos OR Thiago could he lasted more at UTD ?
I feel aging Carrick and Fellini in midfield was the real problem for Moyes
I feel aging Carrick and Fellini in midfield was the real problem for Moyes
Him at pool would piss me off
Liverpool will not win it comfortably again. They will challenge, but it won't be like this year. This year reminds me of the year Leicester won. Leicester took advantage of a year when all the other teams were poor. That's exactly what has happened this year as well. Next year I expect us, Chelsea and City to all challenge Liverpool and make the title race a lot more exciting...
He hasn't? The only midfielders who are clearly ahead of him are Modric, Kroos and de Bruyne, currently. In terms of talent, he may very well be the best of all midfielders. His ability on the ball is unreal. I'd say only Isco has similar technique.
Even if Lewandowski didn't have this amazing season this time, Kimmich would've been regarded as the best player given the way he has played this season. While he doesn't have the fantastic technique Thiago has, his defensive abilities and passing combined make him a more important player for Bayern.
And what you say sort of demeans Gundogan as well, before his back injury he was a brilliant player so I don't think it was Klopp making him look better.
As above, Kimmich is already a better midfielder than him, I would say Casemiro as well. Like you said, Thiago has fabulous technique, and can have moments of brilliance, but in terms of really taking control of a game, I think he lacks consistency in that regard. That's the complaint many Bayern fans have had of him in this career, he doesn't impact big matches enough given his role (similar complaints Pogba has had at United).
I love Thiago and think if he goes to Liverpool, he will become one of the best midfielders in the Prem. But, I still think United are better off with Pogba and should focus on getting the best out of him rather bringing in someone who I think will just compete for the position alongside Matic and Bruno.
Would be interesting to see how Bayern replace him. Goretzka has been fantastic this year, 6 goals and 8 assists in 14 Bundesliga matches in 2020, he's playing very similar to Ballack. Goretzka doesn't have nearly the same technique or passing ability Thiago had but his ability to make late runs into the box is something Thiago never had (he's only gone past 10 g+a in a BL season once). Kimmich has shown that he has he technique (passing plus ball control) and defensive steel to play as a deep playmaker and so can take that responsibility, which was previously Thiago's. A dual midfield of Kimmich and Goretzka reminds me a bit of Schweinsteiger-Khedira for Germany, though Goretzka is more an attacking threat than Khedira was.
Bayern would need someone to replace Thiago though, he was an important first team player who still played close to 80% of minutes he was available for and so you can't just remove that from your squad without a replacement.
You may have the best team in Europe but you don't have the best midfield in Europe. He walks into that midfield every day of the week and twice on Sunday.
That wasn't meant as a side dig at Gündogan. I think the Gündogan that achieved the CL final under Klopp was the best German midfielder I've seen - even slightly better than Kroos, Ballack and Schweinsteiger. Unfortunately, his form didn't last long due to his injury reasons.
And I disagree with Thiago not impacting big games. He does but the average fan isn't deep enough into football to really credit the subtle plays in midfield that set up attacks. Thiago rarely scores and that's why he is underrated.
Kimmich is an excellent midfielder and one may argue that he's more complete since he's defensively better than Thiago (though Thiago is quite good at tackling and pressing, too). But in Thiago's core competencies, Kimmich doesn't hold a candle to him. Thiago is still a way better passer of the ball, he's more agile, more pressing resistant and in terms of technique, it's not even close.
As for Goretzka: I don't really rate him. He's a decent player and very vertical CM but I don't really like those kind of central midfielders in top teams that try to control games and dictate the pace. He's not good enough in tight spaces, IMO, and I don't see him in the future starting line ups of both Bayern and Germany.
So you went from demeaning Gundogan to demeaning me by saying I'm not deep enough into football to see subtle plays?
There are things that Kimmich doesn't hold a candle to Thiago, agreed. Passing, technique and creativity are things Thiago is better at than Kimmich and in the top tier of midfielders. But Kimmich does still have those at a high level himself, alongside great defensive skill and, most of all for me, fantastic leadership and mentality. That is one thing Kimmich has over Thiago, and something I consider has negatively impacted Thiago's game.
I was skeptical of Goretzka as well when he joined, he looked brilliant as an 18 year old in his first season at Schalke but then injuries did push him back. His first season at Bayern wasn't particularly impressive as well but this season he looks a different animal. He is physically in much better shape, you can clearly see he has built up a bit of muscle this season, and he seems more confident playing for Bayern. He's an average passer, average technically, but his ability to score and create goals is something unique that no other Bayern midfielder has (and hasn't had since probably Kroos back under Heynckes).
You're right that he's struggle in tight spaces, but that's where I feel Bayern can have a bit of variety to their tactics. Why do you want to control and dictate every game? Under Heynckes, Bayern's peak since probably the 70's, Bayern were able to control games against weaker opponents but also sit back and counter against technically stronger ones (Arsenal, Barca). It was the dual strategy that made them such a great European team and better than Pep's, who had just one way of playing.
With Goretzka and Kimmich, you have the ability to play dual tactics. Against weaker teams, where they will allow you to hold the greater amount of possession, you don't necessarily need a great technician in midfield as the opponents won't press heavily. Kimmich can certainly play the role of a deep playmaker in those matches. Also, Goretzka gives you an added goal threat from midfield, which he has shown consistently this season. When you play against stronger teams, you can sit back and allow them to dominate possession, in those situations you rely more on countering them and Goretzka is a great B2B player in that respect. He can sit deep and defend competently, while then breaking forward with his speed and get into goalscoring positions.
It's interesting to say the least for me. I'm really liking what I've seen from Goretzka this season and his goalscoring from midfield adds an extra dimension.
The way I see it there are abilities which are more important for world class midfielders than others. And first and foremost that's pressing resistance and the ability to control games. They have to make your team tick so that other players can play out their strengths. Iniesta and Xavi are almost universally considered the best midfielders of their generation (maybe even in history) and they are followed by Modric and Kroos. None of them were complete midfielders. All four are defensively rather average. Thiago might as well be a better tackler than all four of them. And there were always midfielders providing a greater goal threat (Gerrard, Ballack, Lampard, etc.). But they excelled at one or two of those things mentioned above. And with Thiago it's the same, only on a lesser scale.So you went from demeaning Gundogan to demeaning me by saying I'm not deep enough into football to see subtle plays?
There are things that Kimmich doesn't hold a candle to Thiago, agreed. Passing, technique and creativity are things Thiago is better at than Kimmich and in the top tier of midfielders. But Kimmich does still have those at a high level himself, alongside great defensive skill and, most of all for me, fantastic leadership and mentality. That is one thing Kimmich has over Thiago, and something I consider has negatively impacted Thiago's game.
I was skeptical of Goretzka as well when he joined, he looked brilliant as an 18 year old in his first season at Schalke but then injuries did push him back. His first season at Bayern wasn't particularly impressive as well but this season he looks a different animal. He is physically in much better shape, you can clearly see he has built up a bit of muscle this season, and he seems more confident playing for Bayern. He's an average passer, average technically, but his ability to score and create goals is something unique that no other Bayern midfielder has (and hasn't had since probably Kroos back under Heynckes).
You're right that he's struggle in tight spaces, but that's where I feel Bayern can have a bit of variety to their tactics. Why do you want to control and dictate every game? Under Heynckes, Bayern's peak since probably the 70's, Bayern were able to control games against weaker opponents but also sit back and counter against technically stronger ones (Arsenal, Barca). It was the dual strategy that made them such a great European team and better than Pep's, who had just one way of playing.
With Goretzka and Kimmich, you have the ability to play dual tactics. Against weaker teams, where they will allow you to hold the greater amount of possession, you don't necessarily need a great technician in midfield as the opponents won't press heavily. Kimmich can certainly play the role of a deep playmaker in those matches. Also, Goretzka gives you an added goal threat from midfield, which he has shown consistently this season. When you play against stronger teams, you can sit back and allow them to dominate possession, in those situations you rely more on countering them and Goretzka is a great B2B player in that respect. He can sit deep and defend competently, while then breaking forward with his speed and get into goalscoring positions.
It's interesting to say the least for me. I'm really liking what I've seen from Goretzka this season and his goalscoring from midfield adds an extra dimension.
That Goretzka offers goal threat and vertical movement is great but it comes at the cost of pressing resistance and passing ability and that's a trade off I wouldn't make. And it's a similar situation with Kimmich. It's like playing Gerrard ahead of Iniesta because he is more complete. But complete doesn't equal better. That's what I enjoy so much about Havertz by the way. He's also an 8 that'll probably score 10+ goals a season for you - but he is pressing resistant, he is a phenomenal passer. That's what makes him so special. I think you can also see this when you look at the most successful teams in the last decade. None of them really played a midfielder that provided great goal threat but all midfields were very pressing resistant and controlled games. May it be on club (Barca, Madrid, Bayern, City, Liverpool) or international level (Spain, Germany).
Leadership is a good point but not every player has to be a leader. If the team doesn't lack leadership, like Liverpool's for instance, you can pretty much ignore this trait.
And in the end an unpopular opinion: I don't agree that Heynckes' Bayern was better than Guardiola's. Guardiola's was but Heynckes' won the CL which is why the former is memorized more kindly. But pound for pound, I would rather face Heynckes' than Pep's team.
His profile doesn't match up with Liverpool's current central midfielders, which doesn't necessarily translate into a success because Liverpool's central midfield is much more about bite, function, and relentless moving that allows their fullbacks to come forward while being defensively proactive for the team.
Fabinho, Henderson, GW, AOC, Shaqiri. Lallana is moving on and not sure what is the status with Keita. Thiago would be a very good signing, but will he adapt to how Liverpool play or will Liverpool have to adapt to his strengths just to accommodate him?
Fabinho, Henderson, GW, AOC, Shaqiri. Lallana is moving on and not sure what is the status with Keita. Thiago would be a very good signing, but will he adapt to how Liverpool play or will Liverpool have to adapt to his strengths just to accommodate him?
This guy seems to induce essay length posts on the caf at least.
I don't agree that being world class at press resistance should be the most important ability a midfielder has, it depends on what tactics your team wants to play. Wijnaldium, Fabinho and Henderson make up Liverpool's midfield but none are midfielders you would consider as being world class at press resistance or even ability to control games. Yet, Liverpool have won 1 UCL and are the fastest team to win the EPL in history, in between also being teams that press the ball really well like Barca and City. That's because Klopp's system doesn't require them to have those abilities.
You mention successful teams having press resistant midfielders and refer to Germany and Bayern, I would disagree with regards to Bayern and Germany (before 2014) having press resistant midfielders. Bayern in 2012-13 didn't have midfielders who were at the level of Thiago when it came to press resistance, Schweinsteiger was good at it but again not to Thiago's level (Javi and Muller are probably at Goretzka's level technically). Yet they beat Barcelona 7-0 by playing a tactic that did not require world class technical levels, sitting back and hitting them on the counter. Xavi and Ineista are definitely the greatest ever technical midfielders, but then again a midfield of Lampard, Ballack and Essien nullified them and should've beaten them in 2009. While those three midfielders are all-time greats themselves, none would match Thiago technically but made up for it in other important categories.
Teams can have different tactics that require a different skill set from their players, having a technically world class midfielder shouldn't be the be all end all. I think Kimmich is at a very good technical level himself, I saw that first when Germany played against France after the WC when I thought he dominated a midfield with Matuidi, Kante and Pogba. Therefore, he can certainly hold possession for Bayern against teams that atleast sit back, Goretzka adds an extra goalscoring dimension to that midfield then.
I agree that Thiago can play in Klopp's system. He is underrated defensively and is already used to Pep's pressing system, which can be just as rigurous as Klopp's. So not only can he fit in tactically, but he also has the added technical ability that none of their midfielders come close to. It should be an obvious signing for Klopp and one that can take them a further level up.
Winning football matches is not only about goals and assists, some players create the platform to achieving that success.
If we had a midfielder who was press resistant against Southampton, we would have battered them.
The post right below yoursNot really watched much of this guy in recent years to be honest, but I'd automatically be suspicious of any player Bayern is selling seemingly in their prime years.
I had the impression he was injury prone, his appearance stats per season seem reasonable - but then he's got quite a lot listed here:
https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/thiago/verletzungen/spieler/60444
edit: it would be rather satisfying if Liverpool's success the past couple of years led to them being the ones fleeced in the transfer market, buying burnouts rather than building something as they have been the past few years.
I had the impression he was injury prone, his appearance stats per season seem reasonable - but then he's got quite a lot listed here:
https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/thiago/verletzungen/spieler/60444
edit: it would be rather satisfying if Liverpool's success the past couple of years led to them being the ones fleeced in the transfer market, buying burnouts rather than building something as they have been the past few years.
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He is still a great player but we should stay away from him unless we are ok to pay for maybe 1 season. Why? His injury record. It is not just about the amount of injuries. Most of them are tot worrying but had medial vollateral ligament knee injury 3x. That's something to worry about. It can reoccur anytime and he can be gone for the half of the season in seconds. So I rate him but we should go look elswere.
One aspect regularily overlooked is Goretzka compensating for Alaba, or precisely, his lack of an aerial presence you'd normally expect from a proper CB.
Alaba has been phenomenal this season, but playing him where he plays creates issues when defending set pieces.
Goretzka gives the squad more balance in many regards, at the cost of fluidity and cohesion in the center. In the end it's a pointless discussion. Both are fantatstic yet completely different players, and losing one them leaves us with no top drawer alternatives in our center.
Still hope he at least sees out his contract here rather than leaving for peanuts. He can be the difference between winning something big or not.
Well, and the midfield is generally considered Liverpool's weak spot, isn't it? And Klopp seems to see it that way, too, since he has already tried bringing in pressing resistant midfielders multiple times. They essentially play around the midfield in the build up which is why their full backs are so important for their attacking play.
And yes, there are various tactics and not all require technically great midfielders, as Liverpool is currently proving. However, Liverpool IMO is the exception of the rule since the remaining great teams all preferred the type of midfielder I am talking about. And I think prime-Bayern is actually a perfect example for this. You say "Schweinsteiger was good at it" but that's a huge understatement. He was one of the most pressing resistant midfielders of his generation and he was partnered by midfielders who were among those, too. Throughout the Heynckes and Guardiola years, Kroos, Schweinsteiger, Thiago, Alonso, Lahm and Martinez (who was labelled a lite version of Busquets when he was signed) were key players for them. I believe they purposely tried to replicate the model Barca was applying.
People like to bring up the Chelsea and Inter match ups of Barcelona in order to prove that there are more ways of playing football but those two were very, very tight games and in the meantime, Xavi, Iniesta and Busquets had countless world class midfielders chasing their shadows. Ballack himself experienced that when he faced Spain with Germany. They simply used to suffocate teams and it has transformed the game for good, I believe. Nowadays, if two top teams meet, it's usually a very intense game with very, very tight spaces in the center of the pitch. And the ability of midfielders to consume this pressure is incredibly important. I believe in games which you dominate anyway and when the opponent parks the bus, a player like Goretzka can be very valuable since you'll dominate the center anyway and he provides additional goal threat. But a team like Liverpool, Real, PSG or City will immediately identify him as a weak spot and press him like crazy.
I think if Thiago joins Liverpool, the perception of him will change drastically. He'll lift them up another level. He flies under the radar, currently, since Bayern's qualitative advantage in the Bundesliga is so big that he rarely makes the difference but for Liverpool who have many contenders in the EPL, he'll decide them games.
Edit: I don't know how good your German is but the statistics in this article speak volumes: https://www.tz.de/sport/fc-bayern/t...stik-vergleich-kimmich-goretzka-13813530.html
He outperforms Goretzka and Kimmich by a landslide in most categories.
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I am aware of those statistics, interestingly I was doing research for a blogpost on midfielders and also saw that Thiago was outperforming Europe's top midfielders (and not only Kimmich, Goretzka)in similar statistics:
| Open Play | Open Play | |||||
| From 2014/15 onwards (League) | Total Defensive Actions per 90 | xG per 90 | xA per 90 | %Short | %Long | Pass % |
| Deep Midfielders | ||||||
| Kroos | 3.72 | 0.066 | 0.096 | 94% | 86% | 93% |
| Modric | 3.68 | 0.075 | 0.118 | 91% | 77% | 90% |
| Pjanic | 4.30 | 0.097 | 0.135 | 90% | 75% | 89% |
| Rakitic | 3.84 | 0.109 | 0.091 | 91% | 74% | 90% |
| Pogba | 3.92 | 0.171 | 0.171 | 86% | 69% | 84% |
| Thiago | 6.07 | 0.126 | 0.099 | 92% | 79% | 90% |
I wasn't using Kimmich and Goretzka for this purpose so don't have similar stats for them.
Statistically Thiago certainly does outperform both but with Goretzka he will lag in xG and xA (which haven't been mentioned in the article). The stats certainly further ascertain the point that Thiago is a supreme playmaker from deep, the defensive stats though are a bit misleading for me because they relate to a high press system where Thiago has defensive actions, but that does not necessarily mean that if you want to play a counter attacking system where you sit deep, that Thiago will be a great defensive option (or can play as a pure DM). It would be interesting to see pitch maps of defensive actions between Kimmich and Thiago to compare this.
While Spain did beat Germany twice, it should be mentioned that both were 1-0 wins, one of which came from a set-piece. Spain did dominate those matches but Germany were lacking the ability to counter and Muller's absence in 2010 hampered that ability. I agree that teams like City, Liverpool will press a player like Goretzka in big matches, but in those matches Bayern's tactics can be to play on the counter and not try to dominate possession. Bayern had the tactic of trying to dominate possession in big matches in Europe and regularly got undone by teams countering them while Bayern struggled to create chances (Real, A.Madrid away, Porto away); I'm not including Barca away in 2015 because they did actually try to be defensive and were successful until Messi's magic had undone them. The lack of having a secondary tactic was a weakness for them, while being a key strength for Heynckes' Bayern.
Again, I don't want to make it seem I think Goretzka is better than Thiago, it's just that he brings some more tactical flexibility that I don't think Thiago necessarily brings. If you want to go out and dominate possession then there are few better midfielders than Thiago, but I think Kimmich can do well in that role himself when needed.
fecking get him in. No more than a 3 year contract. Don’t care if we have to pay 250k in wages. We need depth. He is quality. Enough of playing Fred there to give Pogba a break. He isn’t going to be play week in week out so we can manage his injury issues. Same way City managed Laporte and Gundogan.
There could be a few alternatives actually that might make sense.
1) Play him as a defensive midfielder. He has played there for Pep. Considering that teams like to press us, he would totally take the piss out of majority EPL teams who press, considering that he is one of the most press resistant players right there. Under any circumstance, I think that he would be better than Matic.
2) Play diamond if we miss Sancho, with him and Pogba playing in the center, Matic as a defensive midfielder, and Bruno at the top of the diamond.
3) Do what we liked most for the last 10 year, and play attacking midfielders as wingers/inside forwards, essentially play Bruno where Mason plays, and Thiago with Pogba and Matic in midfield.
4) Make him compete with Pogba and Matic.
So in any case, I think that he would add a lot to us, considering that he is better at dictating the game than any of our players, passes better than any of our players, and is as press resistant (if not more) than Pogba.
I think he'll go to Liverpool though, and be their best midfielder (at least until he get injured).
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