Things we learned from Liverpool

minoo-utd

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They are lucky they got the right manager who can improve and motive the players. and they have a system and a plan. We don't.
 

HisDudeness

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100%, Absolutely this!

Liverpool took risks on the likes of Andy Robertson but also broke transfer records for a defender (VVD) and an African player (Mane) from Southampton. They also made good on some proven premier league discards/veterans like Milner and Shaquiri.

For contrast, our supporters will have full-meltdowns if we spent big on ‘unheralded’ premier league dwellers like Declan Rice, Ryan Fraser or Harry Maguire. Sign of our desperate times they’ll say.
fergie took alot of risks... fletcher, carrick, kagawa, etc. but it was a team with good chemistry
 

Scriblerus

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We should not be learning anything - we should know it already. But…
Don't bring in players who are in decline, or about to be.
At the top level, character matters as much as the last few percent of skill. Ferguson was a master of finding players who were determined and committed. We've lost that (I don't think I need to name names, do I?)
You don't need 11 world beaters in a team, you need balance - Liverpool's midfield is limited, but they are scrappers, and two good attacking full backs and pace and skill up front give them enough going forward.
Successful rebuilding requires a plan, not a chequebook with an itch for whatever big name the agents are punting around.
 

Zlatattack

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Gomez but that's not the point. There is this thinking that if player is not great from young age then those players aren't all that good. If the young player shows promise then we should sign him at all costs.

For example, how would have CAF reacted if we signed Salah, Mane, Firmino, Robertson?
I'd have been over the moon about Mane, but I know what you mean.
 

AngliaRed

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As Gary Neville said, the very first thing we should have here at United is, 11 players who run 90minutes and care about the club. Whether they’re world class players or sunday league players, we don’t even have 11 players who play for the badge at the moment. For example I’d rather see Chong learn on the job, than Martial walk about like he’s just had a promise from a liar.

I dont need to name players who are past it or who don’t want to be here because its been done to death.

Last night klopp had them all running into the ground and right now, I would be happy with that.
 

B20

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Speaking of "long term vision" @rampo . Do you think Liverpool have one? It seems like they just changed managers, and each manager just buy their own players. The only "vision" I see is the owner only sanction buying players with resale values. And also they don't mind selling their stars if the price is right.
Our transfer strategy is not the same as it was under Rodgers, but it is very much an evolution of it with many of the same people running it. I am sure Klopp has had an impact but unlike Rodgers he's much more comfortable working with a director of football and probably has less influence on transfers than Rodgers did (he preferred Brandt over salah for example).

One thing that has changed is that we've stopped buying players as investments with resale value as a factor and focused more on getting in players with the right sporting fit, to such a degree that we'd rather buy no one than take a punt on a maybe.

Don't think they were ever happy to sell for the right price as much as through gritted teeth. It was the owners that blocked the sale of Coutinho the previous summer.

This doesn't apply to Liverpool, truth be told they simply hired a good coach, nothing else.
There's no doubt Klopp is the major factor but he's got a good and well developed structure around him.

We suffered for a few years from having owners that knew nothing about football and were experimenting a lot to find a workable structure and approach. Unlike the glazers they've been very committed to the learning curve though and to trying to do things properly. I am pretty happy with them at this stage.
 

JPRouve

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Hmm. I haven't followed it a lot to be honest, but John Henry's Fenway Group took over after Gilette and Hicks, who didn't do well.

Thought Liverpool was kind of happy about their current owner? Allowed Klopp to sell Coutinho, to revamp the squad for instance.

What's the general concencus among Liverpool fans?
That's not the point, their owner knows nothing about football and most owners or executives in football aren't football savvy either. Just look at when FSG bought Liverpool and look at the players and managers, that they brought, it's not as glorious as people are now pretending. The reality is that they eventually got a very good manager in Klopp mainly due to timing and a little bit of luck.

For owners it's very simple when they have a good coach they look smart, when they don't they look clueless/greedy.
 

JPRouve

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There's no doubt Klopp is the major factor but he's got a good and well developed structure around him.

We suffered for a few years from having owners that knew nothing about football and were experimenting a lot to find a workable structure and approach. Unlike the glazers they've been very committed to the learning curve though and to trying to do things properly. I am pretty happy with them at this stage.
You should be happy but it's not a coincidence that your structure started to really make sense when Klopp entered the building, use United as a bad example and always keep that in mind. From what I understand Klopp was aware of his own limitations and suggested the structure that would help him be successful while we hired arrogant buffoons who are convinced that they know everything.
 

Wayne's World

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Get a DOF in, totally change the recruitment style of the club and play a system that fits the players and style of football needed.

Also buy players who aren't "stars". That's why I think the likes of Ward-Prowse would be an excellent signing for us yet half of the people on this form would say he's shite and not good enough for United. Not every player needs to be bought for 100 million+.
 

buchansleftleg

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There are some excellent posts in this thread. To me what happens in the next couple of games doesn't really matter. Fine margins, one player having an amazing day, a bit of luck can be a crucial factor in winning the trophies or not.

However you have to hand it to Liverpool - they have been able to compete and challenge at this level and that is all you can ask of a team.

Liverpool have shown up Woodward as a specialist in failure. - They have managed to compete by making sensible purchases rather than galacticos. They have gone for squad depth rather than buying a big name for social media hits. They have backed a manager who has a clear plan and utilizes players in their optimum positions, keeping them motivated and creating a strong team spirit.

Whilst the translator had a plan he bought talent that did not fit our team, probably motivated more by getting one over city in the transfer market. This has to stop but I fear it won't.

I suspect even now agents are faking interest from Man City, knowing that Woodward will come scuttling over trying to "beat city to the signature" then ask a manager to somehow integrate whatever player he has managed to wrestle from this reverse Jumble sale where we pay over the odds to stop City from buying them.

If our first purchase is some older player from another league, or is somehow been "stolen from under the noses of..." then we are looking at a long term decline until new owners come in.

I'm left grasping at straws that Patrice Evra's recent trips to the middle east are somehow linked to a search for new owners....although I hope we can find one of the less medieval families to take over who don't resort to bone saws to settle disputes.
 

roonster09

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I'd have been over the moon about Mane, but I know what you mean.
Used to argue lot about Mane in different forums, saying how he will be very good addition and much better than Pedro. But year, overall point was much more than just Mane.
 

Ban

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You should be happy but it's not a coincidence that your structure started to really make sense when Klopp entered the building, use United as a bad example and always keep that in mind. From what I understand Klopp was aware of his own limitations and suggested the structure that would help him be successful while we hired arrogant buffoons who are convinced that they know everything.
I think Ole is not an arrogant buffon but the problem is we don't have a proper structure. If any.
 

red woppit

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We should not be learning anything - we should know it already. But…
Don't bring in players who are in decline, or about to be.
At the top level, character matters as much as the last few percent of skill. Ferguson was a master of finding players who were determined and committed. We've lost that (I don't think I need to name names, do I?)
You don't need 11 world beaters in a team, you need balance - Liverpool's midfield is limited, but they are scrappers, and two good attacking full backs and pace and skill up front give them enough going forward.
Successful rebuilding requires a plan, not a chequebook with an itch for whatever big name the agents are punting around.
Pretty much this. I do feel that there could be a time when a player, who is coming towards the end of a career, can be a good fit in a team that requires exactly what ever that player can give, and also to help/guide younger players for a couple of seasons, but generally we need players that are on the up (Madison, Rice, Brooks, Felix for example) and really want to play for the club, and will get a real sense of pride in wearing the United shirt, and running out onto the OT pitch. I'm sure that most posters on here would never go for players like Milner, Henderson, Wiljandum, Firmino, but they fit into a pattern of play that obviously suits them, and, the overiding factor is that they all have a work ethic, and are prepared to run themselves into the ground for their club, I'm afraid I didn't see that too much from a few United players towards the end of the season.
 

Skills

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You should be happy but it's not a coincidence that your structure started to really make sense when Klopp entered the building, use United as a bad example and always keep that in mind. From what I understand Klopp was aware of his own limitations and suggested the structure that would help him be successful while we hired arrogant buffoons who are convinced that they know everything.
The current crop of top managers genuinely enjoy coaching. I'm guessing he isn't that interested in the whole transfer side of the business he's more interested in what he can do to influence the players he has. He's then happy to let the club give him better players to coach.

It's the same with Poch who's content at Spurs even if they spend nothing. The likes of Mourinho absolve themselves of their coaching accountability, and throw their playing staff under the bus.
 

MarkK

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I would like to add one aspect (and I hope our own bosses get that...): For every Salah you need a Henderson, for every Mané you need a Milner, for every Alisson you need a Robertson and for every van Dijk you need a TAA. Liverpool have a perfect mix of international players with world class attributes as footballers and domestic players with the right mentality to inject a proper team spirit and "personality" (I can't think of a better word to phrase it). 11 world class footballers don't necessarily add up to a great team and as often as I see Liverpool, I think that Henderson or Robertson bring so much to the team as a whole without being world class individually.

Klopp was an average player himself and he knows that average players with the right mindset can give the whole team a boost. Henderson is Liverpool's captain for a reason.
 

Kaizane

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I think being out of the CL next year and the drop in wages for most players will be a blessing in disguise for us to be honest.
 

SapperBRed75

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Embedded, cultural change takes time - Klopp's been at it since 2015 at Anfield. We all know City have been executing their strategy since 2008 - Pep is executing the most recent phase. Nothing new. It took Cruyff 3 seasons before his system started bearing fruit at Barca in the late 80's and we all remember the significance of our FA Cup win in 1990 to SAF retaining his job at United. You've given someone the job, now stay the course and invest top to bottom.
 

UpWithRivers

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Wait 27 years. Seriously you need a lot of luck. Everything they touch turns to gold. Its like Leicester except they will have the money to keep their best players and build upon it. Im not dismissing the great work they have done but its ridiculously hard to replicate. Same as trying to replicate What Sir Alex did with youth players. Its a once in two decades a team manages this. Its possible yes just rare.
The only sure fire way is money. Chelsea, Man City, PSG, Barca, Real etc. just keep throwing money at the problem
 

JPRouve

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I think Ole is not an arrogant buffon but the problem is we don't have a proper structure. If any.
I was talking about the others, the ones that failed. For me Ole is an unknown quantity.

The current crop of top managers genuinely enjoy coaching. I'm guessing he isn't that interested in the whole transfer side of the business he's more interested in what he can do to influence the players he has. He's then happy to let the club give him better players to coach.

It's the same with Poch who's content at Spurs even if they spend nothing. The likes of Mourinho absolve themselves of their coaching accountability, and throw their playing staff under the bus.
And that's why I wanted a young manager, outside of Heynckes I can't even name a manager that was in the second part of his career and found success in a new top club. It's not that common for +50 years old managers to have success at the top in new environments.
 

Ban

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I was talking about the others, the ones that failed. For me Ole is an unknown quantity.



And that's why I wanted a young manager, outside of Heynckes I can't even name a manager that was in the second part of his career and found success in a new top club. It's not that common for +50 years old managers to have success at the top in new environments.
I know you did. :)
 

charlenefan

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Things I hope the fans have learnt from Liverpool is to give the manager time, I guess that only works if the fans buy into said manager which we clearly didn't with LVG and Mourinho but surely Ole is one we should buy into given he knows the club better than the aforementioned two? But then they'll always be those who will argue he doesn't have the pedigree of Klopp who was obviously quite a coup for Liverpool to get (like how the Newcastle fans worship Rafa)

I hope the board (more specifically Woodward) look at their transfer policy and see how it's so obviously the same as ours was under SAF and see the negative effect this new galatico approach has had. Signing the best players in the world might work for clubs like Madrid and Barca but it doesn't work in the PL, even City who have probably assembled one of the best squads in world football don't have a Galatico among them just a bunch of supremely talented and more importantly hard-working footballers

I also hope the board have seen what Liverpool have done by selling a player who wanted out (Coutinho) and it be of benefit to the team. Anyone who doesn't want to be at Man Utd next season needs to be shown the door no questions asked. Take the money and reinvest
 

Swearing Budgie

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That Ryan Fraser at Bournemouth could be useful. I assume he is not good enough for us though...
 

charlenefan

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Sign world class manager who fits with the philosophy of the club and give him complete freedom
fixed

and this is why Mourinho wasn't backed because the club listened to disgruntled fans about the style of play and decided months after giving him a new contract that he wasn't for them
 

Pogue Mahone

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This doesn't apply to Liverpool, truth be told they simply hired a good coach, nothing else.
Yeah, that’s the painful truth.

Things We Learned From Liverpoool.

If you hire a really really good manager you’ll end up with a really really good football team.

/Thread

Obviously I’m hoping that Ole turns out to be a really really good manager. We’ve got to cling on that possibility, right? Otherwise, what’s the fecking point...
 

Inigo Montoya

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Well, we could talk about how much freedom he had.
He signed pretty much who he wanted, had freedom to trash players in the media, had freedom to implement a free flowing style that Utd is used to. He appointed Carrick and McKenna as coaches....

He wasn't on the leash as people might claim
 

Ramos

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Identifying the weak link in the team and focus the spending on that. Did that by getting VVD. Did it again by replacing Karius. They don't get through yesterday with Karius.
 

Maticmaker

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Have to say (through gritted teeth) it was a great result and performance from Liverpool last night... but Klopp still hasn't won anything ..yet! What is it, 4th year of asking... that's the thing to learn from Liverpool, get your house in order and don't expect to win trophies right away?

Klopp resisted the urging he was getting two seasons ago to get a CB and GK of quality, when he did go for that final piece of the puzzle he paid top dollar and moved quickly … another lesson!
 

johanovic

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Klopp should have been offered the big bucks to replace Fergie but there is no use in dwelling on the past. I hate to say it but what Liverpool did yesterday was a great performance where they ran over Barcelona and made them look awful. Liverpool are a team while we are a group of individuals. They work much harder than us on both sides of the field and Barca looked like a old slow team playing against a team that was fitter, faster and stronger. I was for the first and only time hoping Suaerz would score to make it 4-1 as that would have been a Karma moment to cherish but well done Liverpool. The difference in their signings compaired to ours is stunning and they have a plan and vision while we are clueless.
 

Melville Red

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There's serious talent at clubs much smaller than yours. Liverpool know it. United merely used to know it.
I’ve said that before, just look at some of the players we have signed in the past from smaller clubs:
M Phealen. Norwich
S Bruce. Norwich
P Parker. QPR
V Anderson. Forrest, or was it Arsenal, any way smaller clubs
B McClair. Celtic
G Pallister. Middlesbrough
R Keane. Forrest
B Robson. West Brom
D Irwin. Oldham
The Greenhoff brothers from Stoke.
S Coppel. Tranmere Rovers

The list isn’t exhaustive and there maybe some spelling mistakes. However each one of those players was a success, some more than others but they each played a part in achieving greatness for this club of ours.
And all are British, they knew the clubs history before they even joined they weren’t some Jonny from abroad with a fancy name who just wants too see how much money they can get, they wanted to play for the club, they were proud to play for the club, proud that they had been spotted and that Manchester United wanted them.

Is it too much to ask to get black to basics?
 

Vidyoyo

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I imagine it's been a lot easier for Klopp to coach the system into the players precisely because he bought talented, hardworking talent from lower teams.

I don't think he'd have succeeded with players like Di Maria, Martial, Zlatan and Sanchez - poster boys for playing their way and not the coaches.
 

Camilo

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I think if we can take one thing from their performances the last few years it's that the system and coaching is of paramount importance. They've signed some excellent players, but with two of their most important out last night it made no difference... We talk about deadwood, but there's zero chance Henderson, Milner, Matip or Lovren would've been championed by our fans had they been in our team over the last 5 years - they'd be on the "must upgrade" pile. And similarly, Firminho, Mane, TTA, Keita - these are good players, but I wouldn't say in isolation they're more than that... They're being put to work in a well oiled machine and they're thriving. They can see the success hard work can bring for them and they're buying into it. We have none of that. How does our "put some good players on the pitch and attack attack attack" even begin to come close? It's not the 90s. It's pathetic.

I don't think there's any point in us signing another player until we have a clue what we're trying to do as a club. Ole doesn't know - he's just an inexperienced coach, he's not going to turn things around. Structure and ideals have to be brought in, and to start that ball rolling I think we need the right manager to build around. Once those structures are in place that manager can move on and the club won't collapse. But Ole isn't the guy.
 

QoS

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Everyone going on about vision, it's hard to have a vision when you change managers at alarming rates. Gonna call it but ole will be out of a job by Christmas and it starts all over again.

DoF wont even help that because every manager has their own style and type of player. Honestly think United made another mistake appointing ole. He loves Utd, was willing to give it a go until the end of the season and your board jumped in there after 1 big game win and offered him a contract. Should of went all out for Poch in the summer. The way he's talking he sounds just about done with spurs.
 
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johanovic

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I’ve said that before, just look at some of the players we have signed in the past from smaller clubs:
M Phealen. Norwich
S Bruce. Norwich
P Parker. QPR
V Anderson. Forrest, or was it Arsenal, any way smaller clubs
B McClair. Celtic
G Pallister. Middlesbrough
R Keane. Forrest
B Robson. West Brom
D Irwin. Oldham
The Greenhoff brothers from Stoke.
S Coppel. Tranmere Rovers

The list isn’t exhaustive and there maybe some spelling mistakes. However each one of those players was a success, some more than others but they each played a part in achieving greatness for this club of ours.
And all are British, they knew the clubs history before they even joined they weren’t some Jonny from abroad with a fancy name who just wants too see how much money they can get, they wanted to play for the club, they were proud to play for the club, proud that they had been spotted and that Manchester United wanted them.

Is it too much to ask to get black to basics?
Agree with you totally on this, what makes me mad when watching United today is the lack of effort by many of the players. Of course you need talent but there is no matter how much talent you have if you do not do the basic work. One could argue that Henderson,Milner,Robertson,Winjaldum,Origi are not the most talented footballers out there but they sure did play well yesterday in a clear system setup by Klopp. I hate seeing players like Pogba and Martial with all the talent in the world but a lack of workrate that´s just terrible. Ronaldo for all the talent he has is a great example of a top sportsman doing all the right things in taking care of himself and giving his all in a game. He talks about being toughend up by Fergie methods and being kicked constantly in training. Why? To get him ready for what was coming. I´m not sure many of the currenct squad give much of an effort in training. It´s staggering that fitness wise and running wise we seem lightyears behind the other top teams. How can that be at a club like ours?