I grew up in Southeast Asia and from what I've experienced there, this "stereotype" for the lack of a better word is accurate to quite an extent. In my case, I had an emotional connection with United from a very young age for a reason I don't want to go into detail here. But the love or connection with the club was never my identity. I think that is the problem with fans from "there", that being a fan of a club becomes their identity. It almost becomes a competition of who is the biggest fan, who loves the club most and so on. These fanatics don't really seem to have any emotional connection to the club. Trust me, I've seen a huge chunk of my friends become a Chelsea fan when they started winning leagues, then switch almost immediately to Barcelona when they were winning champion's league. I've even seen so-called United fans start supporting City when it seemed like United were stumbling and City was on the rise. And also I've seen loads of fanboys of C.Ronaldo move to supporting Real Madrid after he left United. It's not the best analogy, but its like lust and love. Fanatics have the "lust", but don't have the "love" for the club.
Thinking the unthinkable - not interested in football any more...
- Thread starter simonhch
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You should watch at least the games where Messi and Ronaldo play, just because you never know what they're going to do.
I don't think i'll ever stop watching football but I don't love the game nearly as much as I used to in the 2000's.
I remember playing Fifa 2005 everyday, when Henry Ronaldinho and Shevchenko ruled the world
I don't think i'll ever stop watching football but I don't love the game nearly as much as I used to in the 2000's.
I remember playing Fifa 2005 everyday, when Henry Ronaldinho and Shevchenko ruled the world
Largely agree except for the bolded. I'm about the same age as you and have a feeling it's down to the generational gap.
What you see as a stupifying trend to pander to foreign fans with no links or understanding of football is actually the game targetting people different to you, younger people, not necessarily foreign people or people who don't understand football. It goes hand in hand with your rant on players, pundits, "fans" and the role of social media in all that.
You are alienated, it has nothing to do with foreigners but us being oldies and not seeing the bloody point of liking the post on the official app that sends a push notification when we score a goal.
Yes I see your point and it is definitely valid. I also live abroad and have done for a long time, and the international fan base has a few particular characteristics which I find fairly universal. 1. Working knowledge of the team, it’s history is almost always extremely limited 2. Fans follow players almost as much as they follow clubs. Changing allegiances when their favourite player is sold. 3. The age of the fan base is very often linked to the most successful period in the clubs history coinciding with the childhood of those fans. 4. Their participation with the club is through social media engagement. And it is very superficial.
Now I am not saying there is anything wrong with this per se. The club needs to make these fans to drive its revenue model. However, from a purely selfish perspective, you talk to these fans, as a life long United fan from a football culture, and you can see their allegiance is skin deep at best. And their knowledge limited and often bizarrely incorrect. Appealing to this type of fan, is so clearly seen in the company’s messaging.
So who is your brother? Having lived in Sheffield as a kid and having family on both sides of the divide, I am curious. There aren't many who where played for both Wednesday end United. I could make an educated guess.
As for your question. Most of what you say is true and most of us have concerns about the money in the game and the role of the agents and the attitudes of the modern day players. I am 25 years older than you and have seen more ups and down but this game is in our blood and we can't give it up. When United are back on top again all will be forgiven and we will all fall in love with the game again.
Nice post at the outset(be interesting to see the rationale tested through a period of United success). I'd just add one nuance, though. I can't generalize and comment on how football was from the beginning, but certainly even from the 90s, money has played a big role in who wins - it played a significant role in United's growth.
The difference now, though, is that the magnitude of money, which has created an enormous moat between the winners and the potential challengers. Revenue streams are exploding but in a bimodal way. The top clubs are following power law growth while the ones outside and below are seeing much slower growth. As a result, player valuations which are exploding as a percentage but still low enough as a % of the estimated cash flows of top clubs allow the top clubs to pack the 11 with star players and in the case of clubs like Manchester City, even their bench strength. This is a big problem and FIFA has to step in at some point.
Asia is a market being tapped and football is only going to get more eyeballs with North America and Africa(in an economic sense) yet to be tapped. Wage caps and transfer spends need to be brought back down to earth to allow for more equality. English clubs can meaningfully challenge for only 3 titles but there are 92 clubs. The game needs to have meaning for the other 89.
The difference now, though, is that the magnitude of money, which has created an enormous moat between the winners and the potential challengers. Revenue streams are exploding but in a bimodal way. The top clubs are following power law growth while the ones outside and below are seeing much slower growth. As a result, player valuations which are exploding as a percentage but still low enough as a % of the estimated cash flows of top clubs allow the top clubs to pack the 11 with star players and in the case of clubs like Manchester City, even their bench strength. This is a big problem and FIFA has to step in at some point.
Asia is a market being tapped and football is only going to get more eyeballs with North America and Africa(in an economic sense) yet to be tapped. Wage caps and transfer spends need to be brought back down to earth to allow for more equality. English clubs can meaningfully challenge for only 3 titles but there are 92 clubs. The game needs to have meaning for the other 89.
Obviously, elite and top level football has changed. It's now their success, their money, nothing really for the fans. The elite players themselves are no different than politicians. Their words have no meaning as one player who loves the club, will want to leave the club just one month later. We also have teenagers who can now intimidate the top clubs. Earlier, we fans used to debate over the transfer fees, but now it's so extravagant money that its pointless for any discussion. This "off the pitch" part of football is in another world, and we fans don't belong there.
On the pitch, football is still fine and enjoyable at least the elite level football, with more goals and less ultra defensive setup of teams as compared to the Mourinho era 10 years ago. But the off the pitch part of football is very corrupt, and that's where the problem lies.
On the pitch, football is still fine and enjoyable at least the elite level football, with more goals and less ultra defensive setup of teams as compared to the Mourinho era 10 years ago. But the off the pitch part of football is very corrupt, and that's where the problem lies.
The time and emotion invested in football comes at the expense of something else. At times in my life, other things (family, home, work, education etc) could fit alongside it, at other times the space for it didn't exist - so I'd check the result and watch MOTD if I was around, but not much more. The great thing about football, is that it carries on if you drop it, and it's still there if you want to pick it up again later.
Last season with a couple of exceptions (like the Liverpool match at home) I got more fun out of going to watch the women play at Leigh than going to Old Trafford. That wasn't just or even primarily about the football on the pitch, or trophies in the cabinet though. There are things that annoy me about the matchgoing experience at Old Trafford - mostly not being able to sit with family/friends, but also transport, scheduling etc.
In terms of the connection to the fans - money does make a massive difference. The transfer fees quoted and the salaries paid have more zeroes than most of us can relate to. Frustration with players/clubs gets amplified by the money involved, especially when it looks like money/fame is the primary driver for players, managers, owners as well. The massive media and social media industry around the game serves to distance the players further. Football can look more like a reality TV show rather than a sport.
Transfers (in the men's game) are the pinnacle of the soap opera. I can certainly recommend staying away from the transfer forum, if you want to stay interested in actual football
Last season with a couple of exceptions (like the Liverpool match at home) I got more fun out of going to watch the women play at Leigh than going to Old Trafford. That wasn't just or even primarily about the football on the pitch, or trophies in the cabinet though. There are things that annoy me about the matchgoing experience at Old Trafford - mostly not being able to sit with family/friends, but also transport, scheduling etc.
In terms of the connection to the fans - money does make a massive difference. The transfer fees quoted and the salaries paid have more zeroes than most of us can relate to. Frustration with players/clubs gets amplified by the money involved, especially when it looks like money/fame is the primary driver for players, managers, owners as well. The massive media and social media industry around the game serves to distance the players further. Football can look more like a reality TV show rather than a sport.
Transfers (in the men's game) are the pinnacle of the soap opera. I can certainly recommend staying away from the transfer forum, if you want to stay interested in actual football
Still love the game and enjoy watching them. But interest in top flight football has been meh.
Its been on a steady decline ever since Fergie retired. I don't really bother with United news these days. But I think I will rediscover it again once we get back our mojo.
Its been on a steady decline ever since Fergie retired. I don't really bother with United news these days. But I think I will rediscover it again once we get back our mojo.
It’s because we’ve been shit. You can tell yourself it’s not, but that is what it boils down to.
As I’ve aged my perspective on life, and particularly football, has changed.
In the grand scale of what impacts my life, it no longer really registers.
I will always support United and rarely miss a game but I tune in one minute before KO and switch off one minute after it ends.
Football has for a long time managed to sell the illusion that it’s a business built upon loyalty, sentiment and allegiance. It’s anything but. It’s just hardcore business, numbers, figures and little else.
I used to work for Paddy Power when as a company they were still fun and young and the genius of that was they managed to look like the “punters pal” when underneath it was hardcore business. That is gone in business and football and its sterile now.
In Ireland we have the GAA. 85,000 people watching a game where the players don’t get paid and money hasn’t ruined it. The money (gate takings etc.) gets reinvested at club level and some of the facilities for GAA clubs is incredible.
These men/women will play massive matches on Sunday that are incredibly physical (no diving and rolling here) and get up for work on Monday.
That’s passion. That’s worth supporting.
In the grand scale of what impacts my life, it no longer really registers.
I will always support United and rarely miss a game but I tune in one minute before KO and switch off one minute after it ends.
Football has for a long time managed to sell the illusion that it’s a business built upon loyalty, sentiment and allegiance. It’s anything but. It’s just hardcore business, numbers, figures and little else.
I used to work for Paddy Power when as a company they were still fun and young and the genius of that was they managed to look like the “punters pal” when underneath it was hardcore business. That is gone in business and football and its sterile now.
In Ireland we have the GAA. 85,000 people watching a game where the players don’t get paid and money hasn’t ruined it. The money (gate takings etc.) gets reinvested at club level and some of the facilities for GAA clubs is incredible.
These men/women will play massive matches on Sunday that are incredibly physical (no diving and rolling here) and get up for work on Monday.
That’s passion. That’s worth supporting.
When you think about the club as a corporate entity - just another business that couldn't give a crap if you died tomorrow - supporting individual players actually makes a lot of sense. It's closer to supporting an international team: a fixed entity playing for pride. And it removes the expanding layers of bureaucracy and corporate indirection that prevent a more personal connection to the object of your support. Supporting an individual player can't get much more personal.
Maybe that's why the new generation of football fan gravitates towards individuals over clubs. I think the kids understand on some level that their "support" for a club, especially from some distant country, is pretty meaningless and in no serious way reciprocated. As clubs increasingly lose their character and identity on the pitch (changing on the breeze as managers and coaching staff leave), you can look for finely tuned attributes, attitudes and idiosyncrasies when you support the individual. It's only taking the attitude of, say, tennis fans and applying it to team sports.
I gave up attempting to care about a club years ago. I can't force my brain to make sense of cheering for a business I don't own shares in. But I'll watch any game that Harry Kane is involved in because I love his style of play (which won't suddenly and drastically change, unlike a club), I admire the persistence and character required to get him to where he is now, I think he's a great rolemodel as far as modern footballers go, and he's English.
The only team whose games I never miss (not one in the last decade) is the England national team for exactly the reasons you've given (even if it's painful viewing at times). You don't/can't choose your national team and nobody can buy you a better one. You get what you're given in terms of players and resources and you just have to make the most of whatever you do get. Your country, through shrewd investment or whatever, can slowly shift itself in a positive direction to create exciting trends over time (see Iceland despite its population size) and the process is organic.
National players play purely for pride and many care more about competitive internationals than club games. And you know that in some small way - even if it's only paying your taxes of which a tiny fraction might be used to create playing fields - you have a direct link to the team. There's a sense of genuine shared identity that cannot be replicated by the capricious and artificial world of club football.
Basically I agree with everything you say regarding club and international football but I think this new trend of supporting individual players actually makes a lot of sense because it's more akin to international football support within the club environment, effectively giving people like me something to get excited about during the 50 weeks a year there's no England matches.
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I am from SE Asia. The bolded part is true, I agree. But fans switching clubs are the minority, only a few fans do that,.at least from my experience. Even here that is embarrassing, and would be subject to mockery from friends.
You would also find some fans who support more than one club, but usually only follow ('religiously') one club.
I don't think this is true. I re-watched some of Liverpool's European Cup campaigns from the 70s and 80s and they pressed high and intensely. They weren't technically that impressive but everything was about a collective pressing and intelligent passing unit.
IN 1954 Germany beat the favourites in Hungary to win the world cup despite being thrashed by them previously. It was found they used amphetamines in the final to obviously give them an edge in stamina.
I can kind of get the focus on individual players. Also, it's nothing new - when I was a kid, Kevin Keegan was basically God, whether you supported Liverpool or not (almost everyone did). In my first world cup (1978) I supported Poland, solely because of Jan Tomaszewski, who my dad had told me was the world's best goalkeeper.
But only up to a point, because football is a team game, and really cannot be meaningfully approached as an individual activity. It's not applying a Tennis fans perspective to a different game - rather, it's more like being a Tennis fan and caring only about backhands.