Yet the glazers have let go of plenty of money over the years… we’ve splashed cash on lots of players. Just the wrong type. INEOS are the ones being Scroogy with releasing funds… they’ve got some plan apparently… and there going to stick with it. This transfer window as been a shambles… and unless they surprise us in the next 3 weeks then they’ll be a lot of negativity around OT and aimed at INEOS.
Third midfield signing
- Thread starter croadyman
- Start date
Because we are £1.4 billion in debt and they take out a yearly dividend from the club of £50mil +.
That £50mil every season could be going on a player, but it's going into the glazers pockets.
Until they sell Utd in its entirety, our hands will always be tied behind our backs.
And the club's financial situation is still defined by the debt they put on the club. Obviously. Amazing that some people still don't realise this.
But didn’t we just receive like 80m for qualifying for the CL last season? I don’t know the stats on this but I’m just guessing and going to say we’ve probably spent more in windows when we’ve not had CL football the following season. We now have a really good chance to progress with a manager that was chosen and that as shown promise at the end of last season… if we don’t back him here and he fails then we’re back in the cycle of sacking a manager… which seems to be costing us a lot of money.
You have absolutely no idea what the dynamics are between them - they might be on the same page.
The Glazers spent money at times but taking money from the club was always their priority over success on the pitch. They often spent more when we were out of the top four and less when we had made it into Europe - as looks to be happening this window. Trying to separate the Glazers and INEOS for blame is a fool’s errand - they’re both in bed with each other and both should be held responsible for lack of investment in the club. INEOS are still working within the glazer framework of leveraged ownership based on debt which they use for personal profit. In that context I have no idea why you’d try and absolve the Glazers of blame for our current predicament.
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That’s not how it works - the CL money comes in installments over the season with some of it based on how far we go, broadcasting shares etc. Our issue right now is that our income last season was reduced from playing so few games.
Yeah and the financial noose around our necks, still want to believe we get another midfielder somehow
Yeah operating in crappy ownership framework which certainly doesn't make signings easy
That’s fair. They are both as bad as each other. I was just saying that this window isn’t purely just on them… INEOS have to take some of the blame.
Argh. Fair enough. What about some of the money we’ve made from the likes of Hojlund, casemiros wages. Even MG being sold on.
Well we're still paying for previous incoming transfers. I have no idea how much we're able to spend this summer, but there are some valid reasons why we might be a bit skint this summer. Of course, the best thing we can do is keep qualifying for the CL, but to do that we need investment in the squad. If Ineos and the Glazers don't find the right balance then they risk setting us back again.
Yeah and getting balance right is getting this third CM, LB and maybe striker if we move Rashford and Zirkzee
If they actually wanted hall surely it was obvious they needed to make a move earlier. I don't believe we were ever in for him but expect we might wheel out some excuse for our lack of business at the end of the window e.g. we wanted him but newcsstle asked for an unreasonable fee
I can see through excuses so no point in that
First, agree with you in principle. The Glazers are terrible and we all know this - they have brought the club down so many levels over the last 20 years, badly encumbered us going forward, and it's pretty depressing to think about the long-term implications
However, on your last point...
- Selling the club is no longer enough. We need a buyer who would wipe the debt.
- There are very few buyers who would do that - no rational financial actor would do it. That means buyers like large cap private equity, sports groups, etc are all off the table if you want to 'remove the debt problem'
- It has to be state-sponsored (monarch/royal family/SWF) or some mega-billionaire's vanity toy - which is an incredibly small buyer pool. Maybe Sheikh Jassim would revisit, Elon was a fan as a kid, some other tycoon, etc. But there are just very few of these individuals on earth when you consider the cross-section of attributes (staggeringly wealthy, sophisticated investor, PL/United fan, arguably vainglory, etc)
A few thoughts on your other points...
- The dividends are one thing but the interest is actually far worse. Last year we crossed of 1B in total interest payments (maybe 5-8x more than total dividends extracted, depending on your definitions)
- Interest was particularly bad in the first 5 years of ownership, but it's about to get worse than it has been since 2015 as our interest rates went up this summer
- The Glazers used to take roughly 20-30M in dividends per year, but haven't since 2024 as a condition of the deal with Ineos. Total lifetime dividends are ~155M from 2015-2022, but that excludes pre-IPO (2012) management fees and other shenanigans.
- They will be able to start taking dividends again starting Feb 2027, but most of Wall St doubts they will do this because it would be hugely controversial with Ineos and they just sold 700M in equity. I wouldn't put it past them, but hopefully dividends are off the table for the next few years at least. We'll see...
- Just a footnote but fyi we're 1.3B in debt, not 1.4B
No, you don't get CL money until after the season - with the exception of gate receipts for home matches on an ongoing basis. What we did get was ~2.5M for each place higher than we finished in the league. So finishing in 3rd instead of 6th (where Amorim had us pre-departure) netted us ~7.5M more
I haven't run the numbers on this (will do later) but I suspect this dynamic is also a part of why we tend to spend less after not being in Europe vs after we're in Europe
All valid points. Would be interesting to see what state ownership or a billionaire would do. The latter would have to be a diehard fan not to do their own leveraged buyout. Can't see them putting their own capital at risk.
Cristiano Ronaldo has said at some point he would like to buy Utd. That could be decades away for him to be in that position.
Whether Bahrain or Saudi Arabia would be interested if Utd were made available for purchase, remains to be seen.
Yup, nobody but a state-sponsored owner would do this, and nobody wants a state-sponsored owner.
At a takeover value of ~7 billion and 1.3 billion of debt, it’ll require an act of God (or a massive ownership group) to get a clean slate.
feck the Glazers.
IMO Shea Charles is exactly the kind of third midfield signing we should be doing.
Lookink at what we've got: Mainoo carries the ball, Tielemans sets tempo and hits the long pass, Santos wins it back and arrives in the box, Mount presses and plays high. All different, all good /when fit). But not one of them is a player who sits and/or adds the physicality.
I'd say that's the gap Charles fills, and it's why he'd work with any of them rather than competing with them. Mainoo goes, Charles stays. Mount presses, Charles covers the space he leaves. Tielemans gets time on the ball because someone else is taking the defensive responsibility.
He's 6'2", which none of the other four are, so we'd also have someone in there who can defend a corner and win something late on if needed. As the rotatoinal option, he can come on to screens the back four, stay where the centre-backs/we need him to be to close out the game.
He's 22. That's many years of him still improving, with resale value, rather than another £40-60m on a 28 or 29-year-old when we're already having Bruno and Tielemans on that side of that curve. At a likely fee of £25-30m the downside is very limited.
Additionally he was partly developed as a centre-back at City. Not a first-choice PL centre-back by any stretch, but a credible emergency one over a 60-game season, which quietly saves us from having to sign a squad defender. With Lisandro and De Ligt having their problems it's surely a need for some squad options on CB.
To be clear about what he isn't: he's not as good as now as Mainoo, Santos, Tielemanns or Mount, but he's a different kin of player. A very suitable squad-player. He's not displacing any of them when everyone's fit, and he shouldn't. He'd be the fifth option; cups, Europe, late subs, injury cover, perhaps 5-10 PL starts at most while he develops further.
Where I'm not settled. Is "raises the floor as squad option" good enough for a club that says it wants to win the league, or is that just settling dressed up as squad-building?
If you had to prioritize, would you prioritize a cheaper player like Charles and a Hall at LB, a Tchouameni and nothing else, or a Berge and Scalvini etc?
I'm not sure but I do think that Charles could be a very good fit as we build to win titles in the years to come.
Talk me out of it.
Lookink at what we've got: Mainoo carries the ball, Tielemans sets tempo and hits the long pass, Santos wins it back and arrives in the box, Mount presses and plays high. All different, all good /when fit). But not one of them is a player who sits and/or adds the physicality.
I'd say that's the gap Charles fills, and it's why he'd work with any of them rather than competing with them. Mainoo goes, Charles stays. Mount presses, Charles covers the space he leaves. Tielemans gets time on the ball because someone else is taking the defensive responsibility.
He's 6'2", which none of the other four are, so we'd also have someone in there who can defend a corner and win something late on if needed. As the rotatoinal option, he can come on to screens the back four, stay where the centre-backs/we need him to be to close out the game.
He's 22. That's many years of him still improving, with resale value, rather than another £40-60m on a 28 or 29-year-old when we're already having Bruno and Tielemans on that side of that curve. At a likely fee of £25-30m the downside is very limited.
Additionally he was partly developed as a centre-back at City. Not a first-choice PL centre-back by any stretch, but a credible emergency one over a 60-game season, which quietly saves us from having to sign a squad defender. With Lisandro and De Ligt having their problems it's surely a need for some squad options on CB.
To be clear about what he isn't: he's not as good as now as Mainoo, Santos, Tielemanns or Mount, but he's a different kin of player. A very suitable squad-player. He's not displacing any of them when everyone's fit, and he shouldn't. He'd be the fifth option; cups, Europe, late subs, injury cover, perhaps 5-10 PL starts at most while he develops further.
Where I'm not settled. Is "raises the floor as squad option" good enough for a club that says it wants to win the league, or is that just settling dressed up as squad-building?
If you had to prioritize, would you prioritize a cheaper player like Charles and a Hall at LB, a Tchouameni and nothing else, or a Berge and Scalvini etc?
I'm not sure but I do think that Charles could be a very good fit as we build to win titles in the years to come.
Talk me out of it.
I think he would get bullied when we come up against physical midfields like Spurs, Arsenal and City. We are crying out for someone who can be that enforcer type for the progressive passers in midfield. So players like Tchouameni, Kone and Baleba maybe even Berge.
It’s a ridiculous thing to say but I’m actually hoping that Mount picks up an injury for 4-6 weeks right now to push this ridiculous board into action. Better now than inevitably after the window closes.
You really have to question the logic of this Ineos team if they truly believe that Mount (an undoubtably quality player) will remain fit.
You really have to question the logic of this Ineos team if they truly believe that Mount (an undoubtably quality player) will remain fit.
Except Ugarte picking very serious and a very long-term injury didn't force them to sign 3rd midfielder. Instead, they seem even less willing to sign one because now they cannot sell Ugarte. Similarly, never-ending injury to De Ligt doesn't make them sign a CB
Nothing makes INEOS change their delusional ways
I do love people talking in absolutes about the club’s plans when it’s been shown that we not the journos have a clue.
With the injury to De Ligt, we have two positions that need more attention. Midfielder and Left back. Whilst CB we have 4 CBs for the two positions and 2 players in Shaw and Maz who also can deputise. CB is well down on the list.
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Madrid and Barca are apparently snooping around Azzedine Ounah for something in the £20m range. We should probably be taking a look as well - especially with agents Berrada and Mazraoui involved.
I think we were waiting to see what happened with Madrid Midfielders post rodri signing. But now that Barcelona are interested and City want Bruno G money for him.
Who knows. Especially as baleba is injured as well.
Sander Berge is our only hope...
Who knows. Especially as baleba is injured as well.
Sander Berge is our only hope...
RB: Dalot, Mazraoui (2)
CB: Maguire, De Ligt, Martínez, Yoro, Heaven (5)
LB: Shaw (1)
We need another LB. Can’t understand how people can deny that. One back up in Mazraoui for two positions isn’t enough. With CBs we are good as long as we trust Yoro and Heaven as backups, what I do.
Given how this window has gone, if we buy a third CM, it will probably be someone who isn't currently on anyone's radar.
The midfield rebuild has failed for another summer
Mazaroui prob LB backup then Dalot, if Amass is sold which doesnt make sense unless they have quality LB lined up? Also is Dorgu at LB option still there, he hasnt played at LB any preseasons. He looks more certain to play LW, where he is quite limited. He will need to develop a lot to keep starting LW spot this season.
Maybe it’s because english isn’t my first language, but…. what‘s your point?
Btw hate to count one player as a backup for several positions. Maz is already our backup for RB/Dalot. We need someone to cover LB/Shaw. Amass is obviously not there yet and Dorgu seems to be the Backup vor LW/Cunha.
I would be absolutely fine with that idea
Close thread!
Hoping our players get injured just so we have to buy more players is peak modern football fan material.
Even if it’s a player we have been ‘linked’ to, all those links are pretty spurious. Theres nothing credible out there. Which (assuming we do buy a midfielder), is a welcome change.
He has a club. So no likely Pog-back-back
I miss Poggy
Still think most likely to be Berge or maybe even Adams, neither of those will be cheap but their not going to cost 80m or more.
Villa are being linked linked with Bernal for 30-40m which seems very unlikely but someone like him or Chema Andres would be more exciting if we have to find cheaper players.
Berge would be underwhelming but probably do a better job than most would expect but Adams would be a hard one to accept.
Villa are being linked linked with Bernal for 30-40m which seems very unlikely but someone like him or Chema Andres would be more exciting if we have to find cheaper players.
Berge would be underwhelming but probably do a better job than most would expect but Adams would be a hard one to accept.
Who is likely to be surplus to requirements at Barca assuming Rodri signs? Bernal sounds very promising but bleeds Barcelona.
Part of me would love us to sign a Berge or Adams now just to watch reaction from fanbase. Bar a small minority both have been totally written off already so there would be zero expectation. So when they do have good games would be fun to see people eating serious humble pie.
I wouldn't say it's just a small minority for Berge. While obviously a lot of people would be disappointed, a lot of people seem like they'd be quite happy with him considering the other midfielders we've signed. At least on this forum anyway, I'm not sure what the feeling is outside of this place.
Adams yes would be met with a lot of disappointment by the majority.
Yeah but we should try again