He’s had 4 transfer windows to turn it around. Can’t keep blaming what he inherited.
It’s his squad now.
As much as I don’t like him, in a similar time frame Klopp took much worse to a CL final.
Third year meltdown bollocks
- Thread starter Ban
- Start date
- Status
It’s his squad now.
As much as I don’t like him, in a similar time frame Klopp took much worse to a CL final.
I think there's more in it than the manager. We haven't challenged for the title since Ferguson left. He left a squad that needed rebuilding and no one has yet fulfilled that, mourinho included.
Whatever way we look at it Our squad is still a work in progress. Recruitment failures by Moyes and van gaal and in some areas mourinho have wasted money and flooded the squad with average players, whilst failing to fill key positions and glaring spaces (who was our last great right back?)
In our 2007 treble season our match day squad could be:
Van der sar
Neville Ferdinand vidic evra
Ronaldo Hargreaves scholes giggs
Tevez Rooney
Bench from: Nani heinze Saha carrick foster Park fletcher well beck Anderson pique oshea brown Gibson all in the squad too.
I know football is changed but looking at that and the strength in depth we had and bearing in mind where the players were in the peak form etc our squad now is nowhere near. I'm not a huge fan of our style of play in the last four years but if we tear forwards and expose a back four of Valencia jones smalling and young
We better hope we can win 6-5 every game.
I think mourinho has done ok with the squad we have. I don't like the direction we are going in with signings though. I didn't want Sanchez, he's 29 and not a player for the future. Martial is, looks like
He's leaving now. I don't want alderweireld either he's not one who's going to be a bedrock for the future.
I fear at the moment that unless we really get recruitment right and start building a team that's for the next decade not the next few seasons, we may end up with years in the wilderness like Liverpool.
Whatever way we look at it Our squad is still a work in progress. Recruitment failures by Moyes and van gaal and in some areas mourinho have wasted money and flooded the squad with average players, whilst failing to fill key positions and glaring spaces (who was our last great right back?)
In our 2007 treble season our match day squad could be:
Van der sar
Neville Ferdinand vidic evra
Ronaldo Hargreaves scholes giggs
Tevez Rooney
Bench from: Nani heinze Saha carrick foster Park fletcher well beck Anderson pique oshea brown Gibson all in the squad too.
I know football is changed but looking at that and the strength in depth we had and bearing in mind where the players were in the peak form etc our squad now is nowhere near. I'm not a huge fan of our style of play in the last four years but if we tear forwards and expose a back four of Valencia jones smalling and young
We better hope we can win 6-5 every game.
I think mourinho has done ok with the squad we have. I don't like the direction we are going in with signings though. I didn't want Sanchez, he's 29 and not a player for the future. Martial is, looks like
He's leaving now. I don't want alderweireld either he's not one who's going to be a bedrock for the future.
I fear at the moment that unless we really get recruitment right and start building a team that's for the next decade not the next few seasons, we may end up with years in the wilderness like Liverpool.
Well judging from some of his post match press conferences(Sevilla) last season why do you find the idea that he'll have more of those next season so absurd? The chances of such a meltdown is even higher as he'd have spent more money and will be under more pressure.
Last edited:
Yeah - 7 players out of a squad of 28 players is his squad.
Took much worse to a CL final & won nothing. Jose arrived after Klopp and has won a few.
That’s the difference between a competent manager and a thrift-shop manager.
Jose has bought 8 players, would have bought maybe 12 by the beginning of next season. How many does he need to buy before it becomes 'his' squad, 20?Did Pep win the league with 11 players he bought? Will be interesting to see your excuses this season. Before you downplay Liverpool getting to the CL final remember we were knocked out by Sevilla. If you're using money as an excuse for Jose then you shouldn't even be talking about Klopp.
He could not buy defenders. Other areas of the pitch needed fixing. Matic, Pogba, Lukaku were very essential. Jose probably felt sitting deep would cover the weakness of the defence and he spent the funds in the areas where there’s no hiding place.
He’s gotten scraps since his arrival. It’s plain to see.... ex-wingers bought by SAF are our first choice fullbacks. That alone is a testament to the incompetence of our board.
The equation is simple....
City’s positions in the 3 seasons before Pep’s arrival.....They finished...
1st - 13/14
2nd - 14/15
4th - 15/16.
United’s position in the 3 seasons before Jose’s arrival.....We finished....
7th - 13/14
4th - 14/15
5th - 15/16.
City went on to spend £500m on a squad that never finished outside top 4. One would think United with the larger predicament would outspend City, we did not.
If you calculate the average position of each club in those 3 seasons before the arrival of Pep/Jose....City’s average position is between 2nd & 3rd. Our average position is between 5th & 6th.
Mathematically, City’s squad is twice better than ours even before Pep’s arrival and yet they have outspent us by a staggering £170m. If that is not an evidence that Jose has been fed scraps, I dunno what it is. For equilibrium to be achieved, we need to double City’s transfer outlay - otherwise we will continue to play 2nd fiddle to them.
If we have Young and Valencia at FB, and Mata on the RW the third year will be a fail before it begins.
There is no magic 3rd year formula that means Mourinho will always fail, but if we don't fix these 3 positions, we're done before it begins.
Mourinho has not spent as much as Pep and we need better players than City have and more of them, but questions should be asked of those we've signed. Lindelof and Bailly don't seem to be first team, Mkhitaryan is gone (good riddance) and when the team looks limp on the right hand side, we bought Sanchez and played him on the left.
You live and die by your decisions, sometimes transfers work, other times they don't, but it's a results driven industry and Mourinho knows that better than us all.
If his signing click and we win titles he'll be hailed a genius, if they don't, we'll all be asking why we didn't sign VVD or Walker or Kante or Mahrez instead.
I'm just going to wait and see, and I'll hope for the best.
There is no magic 3rd year formula that means Mourinho will always fail, but if we don't fix these 3 positions, we're done before it begins.
Mourinho has not spent as much as Pep and we need better players than City have and more of them, but questions should be asked of those we've signed. Lindelof and Bailly don't seem to be first team, Mkhitaryan is gone (good riddance) and when the team looks limp on the right hand side, we bought Sanchez and played him on the left.
You live and die by your decisions, sometimes transfers work, other times they don't, but it's a results driven industry and Mourinho knows that better than us all.
If his signing click and we win titles he'll be hailed a genius, if they don't, we'll all be asking why we didn't sign VVD or Walker or Kante or Mahrez instead.
I'm just going to wait and see, and I'll hope for the best.
Say what you like about them. Their defence is much better than ours. They conceded the fewest goals with an obscene number of clean sheets. They lost only twice in the league, we lost about 8 games or so.
One would think Pep’s ultra attacking football is high risk to the defence, it wasn’t. City conceded 50 fewer shots on target than De Gea. As much as we put 6 players behind the ball almost all the time, we conceded shots on target like bottom teams.
They had Delph and stones in defence for most of the season. Imagine us with lindelof and herrera as lb.
, or maybe we're just shite because Jose is just not that good. And no, I don't see how City's defenders are so much better than ours. They are actually pretty crap when they come under any pressure which isn't often eg against Liverpool.
They appear crap because they commit a huge number of players to their attack. Sometimes, I count up to 8 players in the final third. When the ball breaks, you have little or no cover and they concede.
And no, I don't see how City's defenders are so much better than ours. They are actually pretty crap when they come under any pressure which isn't often eg against Liverpool.
They lost only 2 league games(United & Liverpool) all season, your world class defence lost 7 league games - to shit teams like West Brom and all the newly-promoted teams. Keep deceiving yourself that you have a good defence.
Minus De Gea, we would have finished lower than Burnley.
That’s not true. They had Walker, Otamendi, etc. for most of the games. Kompany even started more games than Stones. Don’t be economical with the truth, the facts aren’t far-fetched.
Klopp won his two titles at Dortmund playing counter attacking football and got sacked once he was found out and teams stopped playing to his advantages.
He's won nothing. NOTHING! at Liverpool. And he still plays on the counter, utilising the pace of a break with fast players.
What the feck are you talking about?
Walker is a rb, Delph played lb
How about you watch the games before accusing others of not being economical with the trutu, whatever that means.
Stones made 21 appearances to kompany's 19 so...
I’ve got told it was a falsehood for years.
I remember when Mourinho started his third year at Chelsea we had people saying he was going to dominate the Prem for years.
The fact is if Martial goes he is going to go into next season having alienated a large group of fans. A recipe for disaster
I remember when Mourinho started his third year at Chelsea we had people saying he was going to dominate the Prem for years.
The fact is if Martial goes he is going to go into next season having alienated a large group of fans. A recipe for disaster
Meltdown is just base on statistics but what's worse is people keep talking about the rebuilding he has to do. At this point, he should be completing his squad and the world "rebuild" shouldn't come near him. We've spent plenty but on the wrong positions and players.
And that difference has nothing to do with Mourinho because? I'll admit that Pep has outspent Jose and City have a better squad than us but to make the point I think you're trying to make, you have to argue that Otamendi, Stones, Walker, and Delph (with Laporte as the occasional left back or in a back 3 when they went that route) are so much better than Smalling, Jones, Valencia and Young that they manage to concede fewer shots despite being vastly more attacking than us. I can see why Sane, Sterling, De Bruyne, Silva and Aguero/Jesus might score more goals than Sanchez/Martial, Lukaku, Pogba and Lingard/Mata but again, is the difference really ~40 goals worth? And I'm willing to bet if you really broke it down in terms of shots attempted, shots on target, xG etc. that the gap is probably even higher than 40 goals.
I've said before that I think that overall Mourinho has been a positive for us: the quality of our recruitment is far ahead of what it was in the LvG/Moyes years (although I'm sure some would contest that point), I think our determination and mentality is much better too (again, I'm sure some would contest that point but our results against the top 6 are there for all to see and they include comebacks against City, Chelsea and Spurs in the FA Cup), and we have of course, finished 2nd last season. But I do think this team should be doing better than they are. They look at times like they couldn't string together 5 passes, and a team with the quality of Matic, Pogba, Sanchez and, at different times, Lingard, Mata, Rashford, Martial and Herrera shouldn't look like that.
Pep has outspent Mourinho but his team looks like they've outspent him. City have got their money's worth on Pep: they just broke the record for most points, most wins overall and most consecutive wins, and to your point, I'm willing to bet they aren't doing too bad on the least goals conceded stat too.
More than anything, the real gap between Pep and Mourinho has been that he's been able to buy these payers and incorporate them into a working system, actually improving them over time. I mean you'd have to be blind not to see just how much Sterling and Sane in particular have improved over the last 2 seasons. Plus, there's also Otamendi, Stones, De Bruyne and Delph. Barring Lukaku, Lingard and Rojo in the first season, I don't think our players have come that far under Jose. Though there are arguments to be made for Rashford too I guess and purely in terms of numbers, he's definitely improved so I'm willing to concede that somewhat. But the overall point about the players and the actual work on the training ground still stands. That's the gap Mourinho really needs to close even before we get to spending.
And again, to be fair, he has talked about how he's happy with the players he has in attack and what we now need is to improve our cohesion in attack so he does recognize the same issue. He's promoted Kieran Mckenna and twitter journos seem to think Mckenna and Carrick will be largely responsible for running first team training so maybe Jose has come to recognize the shortcomings of his coaching style and is making changes accordingly. I haven't really seen any of Mckenna's teams play and Carrick is obviously a novice so I'm not sure what to make of it but I'm willing to look on the bright side here. Sir Alex's success owes as much to his ability to recognize when his and his coaching staff's methods were getting a bit dated and needed fresh ideas (Mclaren/Quieroz,/Meulensteen), as it does to his more vaunted talents of motivation and man management. And maybe Jose has come to recognize the same.
Maybe all managers have 'it' for only about 10 years at the top before the most promising young coaches catch up and raise the bar. I mean when Jose first came to England, his scouting and attention to detail was what all players/journalists would rave about but now players like Hazard clearly talk about how Jose would just leave it to the attackers to figure things out while Conte works out particular patterns of passing for each opposition. Sir Alex was always able to recognize when the game had 'passed him by' so to speak, and make the necessary changes. I imagine Jose needs to do the same to succeed at United.
Again, it's amazing to me how you are able to completely divorce Jose's work as a coach with us conceding so many shots. Is it not Jose's job to work on this stuff? I mean who would have pegged Godin/Miranda/Felipe Luis/Juanfran as this back 4 that is basically impossible to score against before Simeone got his hands on them. While I do think we'll continue to improve, I'm with many on here in not really being excited about next season. I mean I'm here praising City's manager for fecks sake. I only live in hope that Mckenna is some Cruyff-esque genius who completely transforms our style of play and just releases the shackles off of Sanchez, Pogba and co.
Last edited:
You are right! Good post!
I believe that Mourinho will stay with us for many more years. He is one of the best managers in the world. I am sure that our owners will give him at least the same time that SAF was given in the 1980s, perhaps more. We are not Chelsea or Real to act on a whim. And if there are players who are unhappy, they can move to other teams, no problem. The manager is the king, the players are replaceable.
I don't think you're going to change anyone's mind, but I agree with you.i think we should give him as long as he needs.
Dalot is hopefully gonna be the next one. Also, good right backs are very uncommon atm, the only world class ones that come to mind from the last decade are Phillip Lahm and Dani Alves. I wouldn't say Gary Neville was world class either, just a very good right back who was a leader and had some serious longevity either. Has United ever had a world class right back?
Personally I reckon Jose will spend 2 more seasons at United (4 seasons total then). I don't think he'll be around for a 5th season. We may or may not win the league next season but either way I can see them giving him 1 more year as long as there is some progress.
Yep, this bit gets forgotten, it wasn't that long ago we were hearing about reducing the 'churn' of players, and been more 'stable' in transfer windows.
Yet once again the list is long for what we need, even before players leave, yet rather than be alarmed, a lot of people are giddy because lots of new names might be coming in. Personally I'm fairly passive this window, as clearly we need a lot more to happen than yet another raft of new players coming in.
Neville was world class in his time. He was solid, up and down the wing, great crosser, great throw ins, good tackler, got stuck in and good positioning etc. He was also a very consistent performer. That was the great thing about all of the 92 class they had remarkable consistency of performance.
I concede that there actually has been a shortage of right backs, I even remember on Fifa there was no one to sign(not that Fifa is much to go by). I do think there's been better out there than sticking cb's out there (brown oshea Jones smalling) or Rafael, young and Valencia.
Last edited by a moderator:
Do you think he should have played Bailly when he was injured?
And the guy who spent £500 million finished first. No miracles there either then.
I agree, Anyone who use "3rd year meltdown" completely ignores the context.
Jose is still the longest serving manager at Madrid and Chelsea since 2000. He has spent 3 years at Chelsea and 3 at Madrid, which is still unmatched. Also he left Inter after 2 years on his own terms, something others didn't match as they were sacked.
He had worse 3rd season compared to 2nd, that's it.
Jose is still the longest serving manager at Madrid and Chelsea since 2000. He has spent 3 years at Chelsea and 3 at Madrid, which is still unmatched. Also he left Inter after 2 years on his own terms, something others didn't match as they were sacked.
He had worse 3rd season compared to 2nd, that's it.
Like his obsession with left wingers. He couldn't get perisic and the he got Sanchez. we spent so much on an already stacked left wing whilst we continue to have a useless right wing
Oh please !!! almost 4 years of klopp and no trophies.
"3rd year meltdown" or not, this will be his make or break season.
This will be the season that he will be judged. If the season start with a bad batch then he will be under tremendous pressure. He has to get it absolutely right from the start with the transfer and his first team. We have to shoot from the word GO.
We as fans can look forward to this after the WC.
This will be the season that he will be judged. If the season start with a bad batch then he will be under tremendous pressure. He has to get it absolutely right from the start with the transfer and his first team. We have to shoot from the word GO.
We as fans can look forward to this after the WC.
Last edited by a moderator:
Hoping one way or another this is his last season with us
Yet here you are, joined Redcafe in 2015 and having a meltdown in 2018.
The signs are ominous!
You misunderstand my point. We haven't challenged for the league title since Ferguson left. When's the last time Liverpool won the league? Nothing to do with managers.
I know we have won trophies since but for me cups are more luck on the day (look at man city Wigan last year) the league title and performance is the marker of consistent success and standards. We haven't challenged for 5 seasons.
He actually signed a new contract at the beginning of the that fateful third season. So there was a reason people said that.
hardly a meltdown tho.I hope the meltdown is over with quickly if it happens, but not convinced any drama will occur at all.
I just can honestly see it happening though, I don't want it to, but last season hasn't exactly filled me with confidence. He's such a stroppy fecker, and often I'm on his side, but you have to wonder how the players feel.
I hope it doesn't happen, but would I be surprised if it did? Not really.
I hope it doesn't happen, but would I be surprised if it did? Not really.
Is Mourinho a special case? With very few exceptions managers don't last long.
In modern football, no not at all, the cycle of managers is such a short one these days, barely any are built for long term success.
Dude, Stones, Delph, Otamendi and Walker are not significantly so much better than Smalling Jones, Bailly and Young. I never said our defense was world class, I'm just trying to let you realise that the reason they look so much better than us, the reason they lost two games all season while we lose to Westbrom as much as you don't want to accept it, is down to how the manager utilises them, period. If you could look at it objectively you'd realise that a large reason look so good defensively is because they hardly need to do much defending, but because of their attack. That's down to their manager but you're going on an on like they they got Nesta, Carlos and Maldini playing for them while we have the chuckle brothers which still make no sense given how much Jose has spent on this defense. You refuse to accept that it has anything to do with Pep or Jose why one is good and one is shite
Jose would have spent 500 million start of next season, do you think we'll get 100 points?
- Status